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magic8BALL
2007-03-02, 11:35 PM
Ok... here's a few thoughts I have on shields. What do we all think?

{table=head]Shield[br]Size|Cost|Bonus[br]to AC|Check[br]Penalty|Weight
Buckler|10 gp|+1|0|2 lb
Light|5 gp|+2|-1|4 lb
Heavy|10 gp|+3|-2|8 lb
Extreme|20 gp|+4|-4|14 lb
Tower|40 gp|+5*|-8|22 lb[/table]
*The tower Shield has a Max Dex Bonus to AC of +2

Costs and weights listed are for wooden versions. For steel shield costs and weights, multiply by 1.5. A Light Steel Shield costs 7.5 gp and weighs 6 lb.

Sheild bonuses stack, but are limited. Each effect that grants a shield bonus beyond the first provides 1 less bonus (-1 for the second, -2 for the third etc.) to a minimum of 0.

Animated Shields are now a +3 enhancment, and cannot be added to Extreme or Tower Shields.

Only light and heavy shields can be used to make a shield bash.

So, someone could use two +4 heavy sheilds as weapons (with the shield bash feat), have a +1 animated heavy shield and have the shield spell going, for at total shield bonus of +16.

Icewalker
2007-03-03, 02:15 AM
so....you could have 5 non-magical tower shields and a total bonus of +15? Or is the number of shields you are using limited by your number of arms?

Other than that, I like this reworking. I've always wondered why there were so few shield sizes.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-03-03, 12:00 PM
If you're going to change Bucklers, actually make them like Bucklers rather than "Light shield but lighter" or "Small shields but smaller".

Neek
2007-03-03, 12:23 PM
If you're going to change Bucklers, actually make them like Bucklers rather than "Light shield but lighter" or "Small shields but smaller".

I was thinking, "Light shield," "Small shield," etc. A buckler would be a 'light shield,' as would be a targe. A tower shield would be "gargantuam" (or whatever size scale is larger than large). Shields larger than the wearer should also provide some-sort of cover, I'd think.

Besides the nomenclature, this is a good reworking.

Roderick_BR
2007-03-03, 01:53 PM
Interesting work. I guess that tower shield could completely replace extreme shield, though. Would it be possible to shield bash with him? An would it give the attack penalty?

Matthew
2007-03-03, 03:58 PM
Interesting. Not my cup of tea, but I can see why you might want to introduce a system like this. I think there already is an 'Extreme Shield' that grants +3 AC, but I don't recall which book it is in.

Light, Heavy and Great is sufficient for my needs.

Gorbash Kazdar
2007-03-03, 04:39 PM
Extreme shields can be found in Races of Stone.

I personally don't think shield bonuses should stack. For one, defending oneself with a shield is an active thing - even with a tower shield, most of the time one is moving it to stay in line with and to deflect your opponent's attacks, to hide your own offensive actions, and to allow you to move effectively. A shield isn't just something strapped to your arm that you let sit there. Fighting with two weapons is quite difficult; defending with two shields would be essentially impossible for a normal humanoid character (creatures with more exotic physical forms could probably manage it, though).

Also, that ruling allows a character to get a +5 shield bonus to AC for a -4 AC penalty, for 20gp. A breastplate grants the same AC bonus and the same check penalty, but also has a max dex of +3 and costs 200gp - ten times as much. Moreover, the heavy shields don't limit the character's speed at all, and weigh a total of 16 lbs, compared to 30 for the breastplate. Combined with studded leather armor, a first level character can easily pick up an AC bonus of +8 for a check penalty of -5, max dex of +5, weight of 36 lbs, and 45gp. Full plate grants a +8 AC bonus, but costs 1,500gp, is heavy armor, has a check penalty of -6, max dex of +1, and weighs 50lbs. Make everything masterwork, and the armor falls even further behind - it's check penalty goes to -5 and cost to 1,650gp, the shield/light armor combo to -2 and total cost to 495gp. It gets worse as you add magical enhancements - the first one keeps things generally even, but the expense for more bonuses to the armor increases exponentially. Being able to spread it across three different options cuts costs dramatically. For 3,000gp, the shield/light armor combo nets a +3 AC increase. A +2 AC increase on the plate costs 4,000gp.

And I can think of other ways to abuse this - for one, why not wield an extreme shield as the secondary? As I read the rule above, you designate a primary and a secondary shield as with weapons. The heavy shield/extreme shield combo drags the AC penalty down further and pushes the weight up a bit, but also increase the AC by a point. With the masterwork example above, the cost only increases by 10gp, but the check penalty is still lower than the full-plate and you have a better AC.

A better comparison, perhaps, is full-plate plus a heavy shield under the old rules to this new-rule combo. Under the old rules, a masterwork set of full-plate and a heavy shield gives: 1,807gp/AC +8/Chk Pen -6/Max Dex +1/Wght 60lbs. Also, movement is reduced to 20ft and the wearer cannot run. The new rules give us a masterwork set of studded leather, heavy shield, and extreme shield: 500gp/AC +7/Chk Pen -3/Max Dex 5/Wght 47lbs. And no movement penalties. Change that to a chain shirt: 600gp/AC +8/Chk Pen -4/Max Dex 4/Wght 52lbs. The latter is clearly superior - the same AC, with fewer penalties, for less than 1/3rd the cost. Sure, shield-bashing with a heavy shield isn't as good as swinging a longsword, but it's not so much worse - especially at higher levels - that it's a major detriment.

Basically, that ruling will very easily allow AC to jump up much more quickly. It strikes me as problematic rule and balance wise, and flavor wise.

Other than that, I don't really see a major issue with the other modifications to cost, bonuses, and penalties. I wouldn't be likely to use them, but they're reasonable.

roadkiller
2007-03-03, 11:11 PM
A tower shield would be "gargantuam" (or whatever size scale is larger than large). Shields larger than the wearer should also provide some-sort of cover, I'd think.

I'm really sorry, but I winced when I read that. A the average tower sheild was usually just slightly shorter than the wielder, as the wielder was usually never standing straight while using one, and 2.5-3.5 feet wide. Just enough to provide total cover from the front. I would classify it as medium. I find the whole size large painful as it is.

Seems like a viable system, but could probably be tweaked. All I can think is some multi-limbed player race (thri-kreen) decked out with shield feats, a high dex and four +4 heavy shields. Maybe exponential penalties? Bah, too much math other than adding and subtracting for DnD.

Matthew
2007-03-04, 08:49 AM
What are you classifying as a 'Tower Shield'? Remember, D&D Weapons and Armour do not translate to precise historical examples.

All we really know about the Tower Shield is what is provided in the PHB (nearly as tall as the user, wooden, weighs 45 lbs and a hinderance in melee combat).

The closest historical analogue might be a Pavise, but I dodn't think that is what Magic8Ball has in mind with his reworking.

In 3.5, these Shields are all 'medium sized', in 3.0 things are a bit more complicated; something like:

Small/Light Shield = Small,
Large/Heavy Shield = Medium,
Tower/Great Shield = Large,

A D&D Buckler is just an expensive Light Shield that is strapped to the arm instead of held.