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View Full Version : Homebrew Alignment Variant: HERESY! *BLAM* [PEACH]



TandemChelipeds
2014-07-29, 06:13 PM
As a would-be DM, I've been faced with a number of problems regarding alignment and worldbuilding. While I like the idea of cosmic forces tied to characters' beliefs and attitudes, I find that Good and Evil are a bit too straightforward for my tastes. Paradoxically, both are rather ill-defined; nobody can really agree on what Good means, and Evil seems to flip-flop between ordinary selfishness and pure irrational malice. It also seems a little disingenuous to treat Good/Evil and Law/Chaos as two altogether different axes. If Good is a matter of having limits, doesn't that make Good/Evil just another form of Law and Chaos?

Additionally, I like a little grimdark in my fantasy. Not everyone does, and that's fine, but if my heroes are summoning angels, I want those angels to have a sinister agenda of their own, even as they remain opposed to the forces of darkness and destruction. I could just cut things down to Law and Chaos, but that creates problems, since it pits paladins against rogues in the game's only axis, severely damaging party cohesion. My solution to this? Simple. Make the alignment system a matter of Law vs. Chaos, but spread it across two axes. Give them two different kinds of Law, and two different kinds of Chaos. I borrowed heavily from Christianity for my terminology, but hopefully that'll only give it something of a Gothic flavour.

This system of alignment probably works best with a setting that has a dominant religion, intolerant of dissent, that follows a genuinely powerful deity/pantheon in the context of the setting's metaphysics.

Orthodoxy vs. Heresy:
This indicates the metaphysical beliefs espoused by a character. Superficially, it appears similar to the Law/Chaos axis, and outsiders are aligned with it as if Orthodoxy were Law and Heresy were Chaos, but it isn't necessarily the same; most Lawful characters would actually probably be Virtuous in this system, and most Chaotic characters would probably be Sinful. In a nutshell, this is "high alignment": The alignment that scholars and cosmic entities concern themselves with. Most characters are either neutral or Orthodox on this scale, though foreign civilizations are probably mainly Heretical.
Orthodoxy indicates agreement with the dominant doctrine of a setting, and heresy indicates disagreement.

Virtue vs. Sin
This indicates the actual behavior of a character. Superficially it appears similar to the Good/Evil axis, and outsiders are aligned with it as if Virtue were Good and Sin were Evil, but it isn't necessarily the same; Sinful characters can simply have poor impulse control, while Virtuous characters can be antivillains like the Operative from Serenity. In a nutshell, this is "low alignment": The alignment that actually concerns people in their daily business. Most characters are either neutral or Sinful on this scale, though members of religious orders are likely to be Virtuous.
Virtue indicates restraint and discipline, primarily in the form of charity, chastity, diligence, humility, kindness, patience, and temperance.
Sin indicates passion and recklessness, primarily in the form of envy, gluttony, greed, lust, pride, sloth, and wrath.

For the purposes of most game mechanics(mainly spells and spell-like abilities), Virtue/Sin is Good/Evil, and Orthodoxy/Heresy is Law/Chaos. However, sometimes Law/Chaos mechanics can also be translated to Virtue/Sin, and Good/Evil mechanics can be translated to Orthodoxy/Heresy. These exceptions are generally class abilities.


Some of the alignment-restricted classes, of course, would need to be adjusted to fit the new system. The alignment restrictions I think are sensible are laid out in the alignment grid below. For the purposes of class features, I'd say you should let players choose whether they function along the Heresy or Sin axis; a paladin, for example, could have Detect Sin or Detect Heresy, and either one of those abilities would be helpful to them in fulfilling their duties. All of any given paladin's abilities should function along the same axis, so paladin with Detect Sin would have Smite Sin, and a paladin with Detect Heresy would have Aura of Orthodoxy. A monk's 10th-level ki strikes, however, would always be Virtuous, since monks are restricted to Virtue rather than Orthodoxy.


Orthodox Virtuous:
Paladins, Monks

Archons, Angels
(Agents of heaven, devoted to purifying the world of its sin)

Neutral Virtuous:
Monks, Druids

Agathions, Angels
(Spirits born of Virtue, embodying the way of self-denial)

Heretical Virtuous:
Monks

Azata, Eladrin, Angels
(Fallen agents, seeking annihilation of the trappings of flesh and matter)



Orthodox Neutral:
Bards, Druids

Inevitables, Modrons
(Agents of the Plan, ensuring that the universe maintains its current structure)

Neutral:
Barbarians, Bards, Druids

Ordinary people
Heretical Neutral:
Barbarians, Bards, Druids

Proteans, Slaadi
(Fallen agents, dissenting against the established structure of reality)



Orthodox Sinful:
Bards

Devils, Rakshasa, Oni
(Agents of hell, devoted to punishing the sinful in accordance with the cosmic plan)
Neutral Sinful:
Barbarians, Bards, Druids

Daemons, Yugoloths
(Spirits born of Sin, embodying the way of self-indulgence)
Heretical Sinful:
Antipaladins, Barbarians, Bards

Demons, Qlippoth
(Fallen agents, seeking the total unfettering of the impulsive primal will)




Clearly, this system won't work for every setting, and it probably needs a fair amount of tweaking. Still, I like it for my purposes, and I think my fellow purveyors of grimdark might appreciate it. Even outside the context of grimdark, I think this could still basically be functional with a more optimistic GM. At the very least, I think it provides the benefit of a context in which the players can't get away with the same Protection From (Alignment) spell every day; just about any stance is justifiable one way or another, and there are plenty of enemies for everyone. What do you think? Is there anything I'm overlooking? I'm looking for constructive criticism.

...
2014-07-29, 06:40 PM
What I don't understand is how these are different from the normal alignments, They just looks like the same ones with different names. It would be nice to know what the difference between the two grids would be, besides the naming conventions.

1pwny
2014-07-29, 07:04 PM
- Inserting shameless self-promotion here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338794-New-Alignments&p=17236236#post17236236) -

:smallbiggrin:

TandemChelipeds
2014-07-29, 07:22 PM
What I don't understand is how these are different from the normal alignments, They just looks like the same ones with different names. It would be nice to know what the difference between the two grids would be, besides the naming conventions.

But they're totally different. I thought it was obvious. Virtue and Sin are really just asceticism and hedonism. Very disciplined, self-denying people don't necessarily have what's best for everyone in mind, and passionate people who pursue what they love aren't necessarily a detriment to the world. Sin causes a great deal of trouble, but without it, the world would be sterile, bland, and lifeless, devoid of everything that makes life worth preserving. In this system, your average chaotic good or chaotic neutral character(especially a rogue), would almost certainly fall under Sinful Neutral. In OoTS terms, Haley Starshine is pretty much textbook Sinful Neutral. Likewise, if OoTS had used this alignment system, Miko Miyazaki never would have fallen; she would've continued to be both Orthodox and Virtuous, if a bit on the prideful and wrathful side.

I guess I should explain where I'm coming from with this. Basically, I've been playing Shin Megami Tensei for about a week, and I've come to view Law and Chaos through the lens of that series. In SMT, Law generally tends to indicate total submission and the reduction of the populace into nothing more than mindless slaves. Chaos, on the other hand, tends to lead to social darwinist hellholes. Now, Heretical Sinful characters might not necessarily support the latter, but in this system, you could totally work towards the former and maintain your Orthodox Virtuous credentials. This system's practically built from the ground up to accommodate well-intentioned extremists. That's what makes it grimdark.

...
2014-07-29, 07:26 PM
Okay, I get Virtue vs. Sin, but not the other axis. That still puzzles me (sorry I didn't look much at Virtue vs. Sin, I was still trying to figure out the other one).

EDIT: oh, so the other alignment is religious, okay. I still don't really get the details, but ok.

ANOTHER EDIT: So it's giving in to your impulses for one, and liking the structure of the universe for the other? I don't really know what to think of that.

TandemChelipeds
2014-07-29, 07:33 PM
Okay, I get Virtue vs. Sin, but not the other axis. That still puzzles me (sorry I didn't look much at Virtue vs. Sin, I was still trying to figure out the other one).

They're both basically Law vs. Chaos. Just different aspects of it. Virtue is "tells the truth, honors their word", while Orthodoxy is "values tradition, opposes change". So a Heretical Virtuous character has radical opinions or wants to disrupt the status quo, but is also intensely disciplined and principled in their methods, while an Orthodox Sinful character likes things just the way they are, but has all kinds of traits that they themselves accept are moral weaknesses-- if they aren't in complete denial about them. But they aren't necessarily malicious. After all, being a bit lazy or kind of a drunk are both Sinful traits.

EDIT: Also, I think I should clarify: Although an Outsider opposing the current structure of reality is what makes them Heretical, this is because they're Outsiders. They're privy to the way things work. They know about it.
A mortal, on the other hand, is simply heretical if their beliefs about reality contradict the "official" version of things. So, for example, if they're members of a different religion than the dominant one? Heretical, no questions asked. Of course, I'm writing this with the assumption that the "official" version of things is that the current model of reality is the best possible one, so...

...
2014-07-29, 07:44 PM
They're both basically Law vs. Chaos. Just different aspects of it. Virtue is "tells the truth, honors their word", while Orthodoxy is "values tradition, opposes change". So a Heretical Virtuous character has radical opinions or wants to disrupt the status quo, but is also intensely disciplined and principled in their methods, while an Orthodox Sinful character likes things just the way they are, but has all kinds of traits that they themselves accept are moral weaknesses-- if they aren't in complete denial about them. But they aren't necessarily malicious. After all, being a bit lazy or kind of a drunk are both Sinful traits.

EDIT: Also, I think I should clarify: Although an Outsider opposing the current structure of reality is what makes them Heretical, this is because they're Outsiders. They're privy to the way things work. They know about it.
A mortal, on the other hand, is simply heretical if their beliefs about reality contradict the "official" version of things. So, for example, if they're members of a different religion than the dominant one? Heretical, no questions asked. Of course, I'm writing this with the assumption that the "official" version of things is that the current model of reality is the best possible one, so...

That... is really interesting.

TandemChelipeds
2014-07-29, 07:48 PM
That... is really interesting.

Tell me about it. I'm still beginning to understand the implications.

It just occurred to me that spies are Orthodox Sinful by default.

...
2014-07-29, 07:55 PM
Wait, what if the dominant religion, or even way of thinking, changed in between regions? Could a character lose class abilities just because they were in a civilization that condoned cannibalization, and the place they grew up in didn't?

TandemChelipeds
2014-07-29, 07:59 PM
Wait, what if the dominant religion, or even way of thinking, changed in between regions? Could a character lose class abilities just because they were in a civilization that condoned cannibalization, and the place they grew up in didn't?

Nah, the assumption here is that the alignment system itself is kinda myopic. Like, it'd work in Warhammer 40k, I think, since in the context of the Imperium of Man there's only fanatical worship of the Emprah, all other religion is HERESY! *BLAM*

But in a more pluralistic setting... Well, this alignment system doesn't really work with pluralism. Religions that differ from the Orthodox version of things may be correct, but they still get lumped in under Heretical for being superdoubleplusungood. There's deliberate values dissonance at work here, it's kind of the point.

...
2014-07-29, 08:01 PM
Nah, the assumption here is that the alignment system itself is kinda myopic. Like, it'd work in Warhammer 40k, I think, since in the context of the Imperium of Man there's only fanatical worship of the Emprah, all other religion is HERESY! *BLAM*

But in a more pluralistic setting... Well, this alignment system doesn't really work with pluralism. Religions that differ from the Orthodox version of things may be correct, but they still get lumped in under Heretical for being superdoubleplusungood. There's deliberate values dissonance at work here, it's kind of the point.

I get it. So, the Orthodox alignment is based upon following what you grew up with, and calling everything else wrong.

Amechra
2014-07-29, 08:03 PM
Interesting.

I would say a Paladin could fall due to the changes in their own culture; a different religion predominates, certain cultural mores fall out of fashion...

TandemChelipeds
2014-07-29, 08:10 PM
I get it. So, the Orthodox alignment is based upon following what you grew up with, and calling everything else wrong.

If you grew up in the Orthodox culture. Anywhere else, tough luck. You're a heretic unless you convert.

EDIT: Well, technically you're a heathen. I guess you'd be neutral on that axis if you didn't have any particularly strong convictions.