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Mexikorn
2014-08-03, 12:14 AM
So I want to make a new character for an upcoming campaign and had the idea in mind to make this one chick which is really beautiful and charming, but very thuglike and greedy. A bit like Nami from One Peace if that says something to anyone here. And I wondered which attributes would be most fit for a character like this. Certainly Charisma is going to be big because of the social aspect. But to what degree does this determine the good looks (which is kinda important to me) of my character. As much as I understand it Charisma is the ability to have a nice appearance and be talkative. But the physique of the body is not affected, like at all. Constitution is all about your bodies shape, for males at least. But does it really make sense to put extra points in CON to have big boobs. Like, I don't have a problem with that, but the bonus HP is what confuses me. Hot Chicks aren't tanks, it seems unreasonable to me to think that every good looking character ingame has tons of HP. If I'm not mistaken, if you want to have a handsome looking male character ingame you have to put some stats into strenght and con. (strenght not being a factor for women because they don't need to be ripped) Are women an excuse with determining their beauty? Do you roll D20 during character creation, do you just tell the DM how your character should look like (male and female alike, no matter the scores) or do you determine it by their CHA score? How do you handle this kind of obscure problem?
If you have any feedback or comments you can leave them in the post section somewhere B E L O W.
edit: yeah i know im not great with paragraphs

Sartharina
2014-08-03, 12:51 AM
Advice from a stripper: Try STR and especially DEX instead. You want above-average (~13, but anywhere from 11-15 works) in STR and similar value in CON, and a high Dex (~15, but 14-18 works). CHA should also be at least 14.

Good-looking guys also want Dex.

The Grue
2014-08-03, 12:53 AM
...But does it really make sense to put extra points in CON to have big boobs. ...

:smallconfused:

If large breasts are a crucial element of your character concept, you may want to consider another RPG system (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/FATAL).

Sartharina
2014-08-03, 12:56 AM
:smallconfused:

If large breasts are a crucial element of your character concept, you may want to consider another RPG system (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/FATAL).HEY! :smallmad: (That said, breast size does not actually correlate with appearance. It's not the size that matters - it's how you present them whole body)

Anyway - for large breasts, you want STR (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BoobsOfSteel). And for more than just the trope: Breast physics!
1. Strength governs core power, which is most visible in the hips, back, and chest.
2. Strong pectoral muscles provide more support for the chest's skin and fascia, making them perkier and comfortable than they'd otherwise be. (And better looking - less sagging!)
3. It outright increases boob size - With the same amount of fascia and mammary tissue, your breasts are gonna be larger if you have Vin Diesel-style pects under them than without those.
4. Stronger back makes larger breasts more comfortable.

As for appearing 'ripped' or not - that's a function of Bodyfat, not Muscle Mass or tone. Muscles are lean and explosive. CON would likely indicate somewhat higher bodyfat (Which also governs breast, hip, thigh, and glute size). That said, you actually want kinda low bodyfat if you wanna be considered 'hot' - enough to hint at muscles (Particularly abs and limbs ) and keep you lean, but not so little that the skin strains and deforms around the muscle. Fortunately, women have an inherently higher bodyfat than men.

Dorian Gray
2014-08-03, 12:58 AM
Charisma =/= Appearance. Charisma is force of personality and your ability to influence others with your words, actions, or mind. Sometimes, characters with high Charisma are attractive physically, but sometimes they aren't. Examples of high charisma include Cyrano de Bergerac, Winston Churchill, and JFK.

Constitution is just health. There are plenty of healthy people who aren't totally attractive, and there are many unhealthy people who are attractive.

Honestly, just say that your character is attractive, and don't worry about the stats. Not every single part of your character has to have a direct correlation to something in the rules- indeed, that would be incredibly annoying to try to play. Just roleplay however you want to roleplay.

http://i.imgur.com/qOXQpg1.jpg

Mexikorn
2014-08-03, 03:16 AM
:smallconfused:

If large breasts are a crucial element of your character concept, you may want to consider another RPG system (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/FATAL).

It's not as much important for me as you might think, don't get the wrong thoughts. I was just in the process of character creation when the thought struck my mind how you would assign stats to a character to compliment the theme of a beautiful body and charming appearance. That being said it doesn't matter much anyways since we play with a (4d6 - worst roll) system for stat assignment.

Other than that, thanks for the input so far, especially you, lady with the cat avatar. But I still have mixed feelings with giving a feminine character more than average strenght and con. I don't want her to be a... errr.... fighting style character. Which I imagine she would become with 14 strenght, dex and con. I don't want to annoy at this point but I imagine my femme more like a cunny roguesse with decent int, high charisma and awesome looks, ok dex and average to below average str, con, wis.

On another topic. I imagine it would help if we could fanfic stat some examples here. For example, what would Nicole Scherzinger's stats be? How about Nami from One Piece? I'd sure find that interesting.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/14/article-2506956-196514FC00000578-123_634x926.jpg
http://th06.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2011/132/5/7/very_fat_nami_by_satsurou-d3g5l0p.jpg

Alberic Strein
2014-08-03, 04:52 AM
Basically anything Sartharina said.

I especially concur on the str/dex/con bit. Even a catlike burglar thief would want some strength for climbing, some constitution for doing the run without having to stop half a dozen times to take a breather, and on the subject of breath, constitution might help holding your breath longer, which can come useful.

Strength around 14 is not a bodybuilder physique. Actually, bodybuilder physiques don't actually exist without a particular diet.

I see what kind of "feminine" you are going on with here and "wiry" muscles wouldn't be out of place, as long as she has a bit of body fat.

13-14 strength is the absolute lowest possible for a physical strength-type fighting character, so don't be afraid, you probably won't fall into that role if you don't want to and build yourself for it.

If you really don't want to, then 12str/con could be a middle ground, enough for what you want and giving a little bonus to skills you may need without being too high and making you a fighting character.

Also, the charisma/beauty is somewhat of a... tense point among DMs. Some see a correlation, others don't, others won't let you woo princesses with charisma 8 and diplomacy/bluff 8.

So do check with your DM.

JusticeZero
2014-08-03, 04:56 AM
There is no universal standard of physical attractiveness beyond the avoidance of mannerisms and suchlike that are a hindrance. Use points in Diplomacy instead. Presentation of what assets one has trumps the assets themselves.

Super Evil User
2014-08-03, 05:02 AM
:smallconfused:

If large breasts are a crucial element of your character concept, you may want to consider another RPG system (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/FATAL).

Can we please not link newcomers to a game where you can accidentally rape your enemy if you roll bad?

Coidzor
2014-08-03, 05:10 AM
Men don't need to be ripped to be beautiful. Haven't you ever heard of Bishounen or pretty boys? :smalltongue:

As for correlating Constitution and relative amount of breast tissue is... problematic at best. Better to leave that sort of thing as a purely cosmetic detail.

That said, some amount of good health does tend to improve attractiveness, and healthiness does correlate well with Constitution. So an above average Constitution is of help there in addition to being a good idea for just about every character who isn't gunning to become Undead. Damn whether or not your character is setting out to be a tank, unless the system really has a way to limit the amount of damage non-tanks will run into.

Charisma has a hazy relationship with physical appearance where appearance is both something it is and is not partially related to, though that's pretty much secondary to your concerns about having a good Cha for schmoozing and manipulating and so on.

Some people add in an additional ability score Attractiveness (ATT) or Beauty (BEA) to cover characters' physical appearance. I believe the Book of Erotic Fantasy has some rules for rolling with that if you really want to go there and are using D&D 3.X or the d20 system as a base.

Personally I've always left it was a purely cosmetic thing, though none of us have really set out to play a pretty boy or the belle of the ball, usually our characters are about mid-range, some a little unattractive, some a little handsome, but it's not really been something we were interested in making a fuss about. I've played with a couple of DMs who'd allow for massive scarring or the like to be a post-hoc explanation for rolling crap for Charisma, I suppose, and, IIRC, one of them had a game, which I was not part of, that had one of the players put their character's high stat into Charisma in order to buy off getting to be super pretty and having some level of the plot make that applicable.

Kalmageddon
2014-08-03, 05:16 AM
The Abilitiy Scores have nothing to do with physical appearence. The Atropal, a giant undead fetus, has a CHA of 50+, for example.
Pick the Ability Scores that you think are more useful and roleplay your character sexyness in other ways, perhaps with a high Diplomacy or ranks in Perform.

Yogibear41
2014-08-03, 05:34 AM
Off Topic: I want to play DnD with a stripper :smallsmile:

Back on topic(before I get myself in trouble): We use a separate stat called "comeliness" in our games that is used to reflect personal appearance, its rolled normally like any other stat, but it also is affected by race(elves get +3 for example, while orcs/goblins get negatives), and can get a small bonus if you have a high charisma score.

Onto other things: just because a character has a high strength score doesn't necessarily mean they are large and muscular. You would be surprised that some of the people in the world are incredibly strong for their size/weight and you wouldn't even realize it til you saw them actually try to do something with it. Think Bam-Bam from the flintstones (although not to that degree obviously)

Constitution also doesn't necessarily measure size, keep in mind that it also contributes to things such as health and endurance, I don't see to many "large" people doing marathons, which by some of the things said they would have amazing con scores. (also by this logic all female vampires undead would be flat chested!!! :smallfrown:)

Basically my 2 cents for what its worth is describe your character how you want her to look, then put points into abilities based on what you want her to do, not on how she should look.

Its also pretty important to understand that what you deem as beautiful others might not necessarily agree. Funny we actually had a situation come up like this a game or so back, was a monster lurking around town that showed up as the most beautiful women you could imagine to whoever saw her, few will saves later and after knocking out another player in a fist fight after he attacked me out of jealousy, we did some conversing and found out she looked different to every man who saw her. NPCs ended up killing her(it) while we went to a dungeon ha ha.

Super Evil User
2014-08-03, 05:36 AM
The Abilitiy Scores have nothing to do with physical appearence. The Atropal, a giant undead fetus, has a CHA of 50+, for example.


You don't think a stillborn god is the hottest thing ever?

Killer Angel
2014-08-03, 05:38 AM
In AD&D there was a variant rule, that introduced Comeliness.
(there's also in 3.5, but you can find it in D&D wiki, so make of that what you want (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Comeliness_(3.5e_Variant_Rule)))

Kalmageddon
2014-08-03, 05:46 AM
You don't think a stillborn god is the hottest thing ever?

Allright, you got me. That was a bad example.

BWR
2014-08-03, 05:48 AM
Within the limits of the six D&D ability scores, I'd say 'hotness' is definitely Charisma. While pure physical appearance is not measured by an ability score, 'attractiveness' (or 'ability to affect other sentient beings') is. Attractiveness is not just how you look, it's how you act, it's the ability to project feelings, the ability to in some way impose yourself on other people. I'm sure most of us have in real life come across Person A who we might rate as more physically attractive than Person B (by whatever standards we have), but feel that Person B is 'hotter'.
We used Comliness in 2e D&D, and there are game systems with physical appearance stats, but for the most part in 3.x we don't bother using mechanics to determine whether someone is physically attractive.

Jormengand
2014-08-03, 07:40 AM
Charisma =/= Appearance.

"...And physical attractiveness" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#charismaCha)

Coidzor
2014-08-03, 07:45 AM
"...And physical attractiveness" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#charismaCha)

It's complicated, ok. :smalltongue:

Alberic Strein
2014-08-03, 08:50 AM
"...And physical attractiveness" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#charismaCha)

That's what I hate about composite abilities. What would be the charisma of a very physically attractive man who could not lead a bunch of peas out of a bag to save his life, is soft-spoken, socially awkward, and has issues presenting his ideas in a comprehensive and persuasive manner? What if you have a stong point among the wide array of the stat, and are bad at the rest?

It also sets up some awkward conversations with one's DM "Ok, I got charisma 8, but I'm beautiful!"

Also, a few DMs I was in contact with did do the "charisma=beauty" thing, and didn't go farther than that.

Jormengand
2014-08-03, 09:37 AM
What if you have a stong point among the wide array of the stat, and are bad at the rest?

This is also why I think Dexterity and Agility should be different things. But ehh. 3.5 is about creating characters who could be people, not about turning people into characters.

Segev
2014-08-03, 10:30 AM
If you want it to have a social reaction impact that is under your and your character's control, you want Charisma.

If you just want to be "good looking" but do not care if you have any say how other characters react to that appearance, just describe her as "hot" or whatever.

This is true of all your stats. While effort is made in designing a system to have its mechanics match the reality it seeks to simulate, ultimately you should choose your stats for their mechanical effects. Get the stats that will mechanically support your character succeeding at things you think she should, and being less good at things you think she should be weaker in.

Once you have done that, fluff it however you want to make it fit.

inexorabletruth
2014-08-03, 11:54 AM
It's not as much important for me as you might think, don't get the wrong thoughts. I was just in the process of character creation when the thought struck my mind how you would assign stats to a character to compliment the theme of a beautiful body and charming appearance. That being said it doesn't matter much anyways since we play with a (4d6 - worst roll) system for stat assignment.

Other than that, thanks for the input so far, especially you, lady with the cat avatar. But I still have mixed feelings with giving a feminine character more than average strenght and con. I don't want her to be a... errr.... fighting style character. Which I imagine she would become with 14 strenght, dex and con. I don't want to annoy at this point but I imagine my femme more like a cunny roguesse with decent int, high charisma and awesome looks, ok dex and average to below average str, con, wis.

On another topic. I imagine it would help if we could fanfic stat some examples here. For example, what would Nicole Scherzinger's stats be? How about Nami from One Piece? I'd sure find that interesting.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/14/article-2506956-196514FC00000578-123_634x926.jpg
http://th06.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2011/132/5/7/very_fat_nami_by_satsurou-d3g5l0p.jpg


Cunning Rogues with sexy femmy waif-fu abilities would still have high STR and DEX. They don't have to look like Hulk Hogan to be strong. Have you ever looked at a female acrobat or olympic gymnast up close? They seem tiny and frail on tv, but they could crush walnuts with their toes while doing a handstand. These 65 lb girls could pick up my chubby butt like a baby if they were so motivated. They are not to be effed with. :smallsmile: I know, back when I was a gymnastics coach (when I wasn't so well padded around the midsection, and could still do all those crazy flips and twists) I used to coach a Jr. Olympic team.

Snowbluff
2014-08-03, 11:58 AM
Charisma includes appearance but is not entirely comprised of it. Stillborn undead god fetuses are not pretty, but they are metal as hell, making them badass enough to have a good Cha. Not to mention that they probably actually get all of that cha from being naturally potent. They hold sway over the universe much like their parents.

HEY! :smallmad: (That said, breast size does not actually correlate with appearance. It's not the size that matters - it's how you present them whole body)

Anyway - for large breasts, you want STR (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BoobsOfSteel). And for more than just the trope: Breast physics!
1. Strength governs core power, which is most visible in the hips, back, and chest.
2. Strong pectoral muscles provide more support for the chest's skin and fascia, making them perkier and comfortable than they'd otherwise be. (And better looking - less sagging!)
3. It outright increases boob size - With the same amount of fascia and mammary tissue, your breasts are gonna be larger if you have Vin Diesel-style pects under them than without those.
4. Stronger back makes larger breasts more comfortable.

As for appearing 'ripped' or not - that's a function of Bodyfat, not Muscle Mass or tone. Muscles are lean and explosive. CON would likely indicate somewhat higher bodyfat (Which also governs breast, hip, thigh, and glute size). That said, you actually want kinda low bodyfat if you wanna be considered 'hot' - enough to hint at muscles (Particularly abs and limbs ) and keep you lean, but not so little that the skin strains and deforms around the muscle. Fortunately, women have an inherently higher bodyfat than men.

This pretty much.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3fVj8A-K8E

Sith_Happens
2014-08-03, 01:55 PM
"...And physical attractiveness" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#charismaCha)

Which is never so much as referenced again.

Tengu_temp
2014-08-03, 02:19 PM
I'd say that appearance can, but doesn't have to, be a part of the charisma stat. If a character has more or less normal presence, persuasion and leadership abilities, but looks really good, then I'd give them above average charisma for that reason.

The best way to handle this is to give your character some kind of trait or advantage that represents their super-amazing apperance. Many systems have those.

Inevitability
2014-08-04, 05:15 AM
:smallconfused:

If large breasts are a crucial element of your character concept, you may want to consider another RPG system (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/FATAL).

Linking to that system should be met with an immediate ban from the forums...

Just kidding.

Pan151
2014-08-04, 06:32 AM
Physical attractiveness is one of the many modifiers that make up your charisma score, but by far not the only one.

Say, you are quite pretty. People are somewhat positively predisposed towards you, because of that. If you are ugly, the opposite happens. In either case, your actual personality is still the most important factor
Say, for example, if you had rolled a 10 CHA, you could then say that you are quite pretty, but not particularly good with words, so it all balances out to average charisma. Or that you are quite charismatic and strong-willed, but ugly as hell, so it all balances out to average.

Of course, the problem is that charisma, more than any other stat, measures several often incompatible things, and thus results in some unfortunate mechanical/narrative dissonance. Tieflings, for example, get a -2 to charisma, because they look sinister and spooky (as per the given lore). And that appearence of theirs gives them a penalty to diplomacy and disguise, as expected, but also gives them a penalty to sorcerer casting and intimidate, because... why?

Frozen_Feet
2014-08-04, 07:09 AM
I think the easiest way around this problem is to do what Book of Erotic Fantasy did and just add another ability score - Appearance - to account for sheer visual appeal. Realistically, all of STR, DEX, CON and CHA would play a part, but the rules really don't give any hint to how they would apply.

Breast size in particular is hard to derive from simplistic six stats, since boobs are mostly just fat and their size is strongly dependent on genetics. They might end up big or small completely independent of a person's overall fitness and what-not. In the end, you might be better off deciding your character's cup size independently of stats, like height and weight are usually done.

Segev
2014-08-04, 09:14 AM
I still say that the physical description need not directly reflect your stats, except where and how you intend the description to reflect some mechanical effect your character has in the world.

Sartharina
2014-08-04, 10:27 AM
I think the easiest way around this problem is to do what Book of Erotic Fantasy did and just add another ability score - Appearance - to account for sheer visual appeal. Realistically, all of STR, DEX, CON and CHA would play a part, but the rules really don't give any hint to how they would apply.Hell no. Appearance stats should die in a fire. Charisma kinda works for 'tying it all together', but isn't even necessary.


Breast size in particular is hard to derive from simplistic six stats, since boobs are mostly just fat and their size is strongly dependent on genetics. They might end up big or small completely independent of a person's overall fitness and what-not. In the end, you might be better off deciding your character's cup size independently of stats, like height and weight are usually done.Boobs are fat backed by muscle. That said - there's no correlation between breast size and breast attractiveness (Aside from what you can do with the underwear to shape them).

Amaril
2014-08-04, 11:35 AM
Of course, the problem is that charisma, more than any other stat, measures several often incompatible things, and thus results in some unfortunate mechanical/narrative dissonance. Tieflings, for example, get a -2 to charisma, because they look sinister and spooky (as per the given lore). And that appearence of theirs gives them a penalty to diplomacy and disguise, as expected, but also gives them a penalty to sorcerer casting and intimidate, because... why?

I would personally explain this by saying that for tieflings, having people be made uncomfortable or put off by their looks all their lives would often cause problems for their confidence and self-assurance, which are the parts of Charisma that are tied to sorcery and Intimidate. A tiefling with a high Charisma despite their racial penalty is one who isn't bothered by it and has learned to be confident anyway, but they might still find it even easier to be that way if they'd never had people react badly to their looks in the first place, so their Charisma would be even higher without the penalty.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-04, 01:38 PM
Hell no. Appearance stats should die in a fire.

Especially BoEF's implementation, which makes it the Really One True Dump Stat (to hilarious results).

Arbane
2014-08-04, 02:49 PM
Hell no. Appearance stats should die in a fire. Charisma kinda works for 'tying it all together', but isn't even necessary.


How do you feel about games like GURPS, which have appearance as an advantage (or disadvantage) you can get?

In games that do have an Appearance=type stat, it gets a little silly if they also have multiple intelligent species, since that implies that standards of beauty are universal, even between humanoids, reptiles, and fungus-creatures. IRL, standards of beauty aren't even universal between different human cultures.

JusticeZero
2014-08-04, 02:51 PM
Boobs are fat backed by muscle. That said - there's no correlation between breast size and breast attractiveness (Aside from what you can do with the underwear to shape them).
This. Appearance is best represented by a feat, skill, or purchasable trait. If it's really important to you to be pretty, it shouldn't mean a thing until you pay for that swing.
I've seen some really pretty people and they don't really have any universal constants to them. There are some really hot AA cup women and some hideous looking ladies in EEs. There are some women who can make an extra fifty pounds of fat look really, really good. There are some really hideous looking skinny women. And vice versa for every one of those cases. Then you look at guys; there are some hot looking guys who can make muscles look good, and there are muscular guys who make people cringe away. On the other end, you have the bishy guys like Bieber who make a lot of ladies swoon, and their equivalent body type brethren who just look sickly.
The one thing that does correlate is that they all spent some time cleaning themself up, arranging themself, and picking out clothes to best display whatever they have. To me, that says it's an extra skill or feat that you have to consciously acquire, rather than a stat that you accidentally have by luck of the dice.

Sartharina
2014-08-04, 03:00 PM
How do you feel about games like GURPS, which have appearance as an advantage (or disadvantage) you can get?I actually like that - or would if GURPS weren't entirely point-based. Even then, the cost tends to be trivial enough to grab or not grab without significantly sacrificing stats.

Sporeegg
2014-08-04, 04:37 PM
I am imagining an anime where the following dialogue takes place.

[Energy beams impact on female lead character; the dust clears and she is still standing]

1: How....how is she still alive?
2. Dude, have you SEEN her breasts?
1: I have never seen a cleavage that big. She must be invulnerable!

Tanuki Tales
2014-08-04, 05:13 PM
I am imagining an anime where the following dialogue takes place.

[Energy beams impact on female lead character; the dust clears and she is still standing]

1: How....how is she still alive?
2. Dude, have you SEEN her breasts?
1: I have never seen a cleavage that big. She must be invulnerable!

"Next time, on Space Dandy...!"

Mr.Moron
2014-08-04, 05:47 PM
Appearance/Hotness is not a stat in D&D. Play it as an RP quality or ask the GM for some kind of custom feat or something if you must simply have your hotness have mechanical representation. Though I for one, would probably roll my eyes at the idea.

Arbane
2014-08-04, 08:30 PM
I actually like that - or would if GURPS weren't entirely point-based.

What's wrong with point-based games?

kyoryu
2014-08-04, 08:34 PM
I don't think you really have to "back" appearance with a stat. You can be attractive and have low charisma, or low constitution, or just about any other low stat imaginable.

tomandtish
2014-08-04, 08:37 PM
Cunning Rogues with sexy femmy waif-fu abilities would still have high STR and DEX. They don't have to look like Hulk Hogan to be strong. Have you ever looked at a female acrobat or olympic gymnast up close? They seem tiny and frail on tv, but they could crush walnuts with their toes while doing a handstand. These 65 lb girls could pick up my chubby butt like a baby if they were so motivated. They are not to be effed with. :smallsmile: I know, back when I was a gymnastics coach (when I wasn't so well padded around the midsection, and could still do all those crazy flips and twists) I used to coach a Jr. Olympic team.

Figure skaters are another example, and go to show how fitness can translate into attractiveness. It also shows how you don't have to be the Hulk to be strong.

Experiment: Go to your nearest ice skating ring. Put on skates. Find a person who weighs 100 pounds. Get on the ice and lift them above your head with one arm without breaking either of your necks. Harder than you expect (be honest, 99% of you failed and are now dead). And male pair figure skaters do that while actually skating and weighing in the 150-160 range. So STR and DEX.

inexorabletruth
2014-08-04, 08:52 PM
Appearance/Hotness is not a stat in D&D. Play it as an RP quality or ask the GM for some kind of custom feat or something if you must simply have your hotness have mechanical representation. Though I for one, would probably roll my eyes at the idea.

Some third party books include an Attractiveness stat. Book of Erotic Fantasy has an Appearance Stat with feats and items based on it, for example. Granted, it's a goofy book, but the mechanic does exist for those who want it.

TiaC
2014-08-04, 11:24 PM
Well, a Pheonix has 21 Cha but only 15 Con, so a hot chick would probably have higher Cha than Con. Hope this helped. :smallsmile:

Sith_Happens
2014-08-04, 11:32 PM
What's wrong with point-based games?

Based on her next sentence, she doesn't like the idea of attractiveness potentially having a mechanical opportunity cost of, say, your ability to fire a gun.

endoperez
2014-08-04, 11:58 PM
My 2 cents:

Charisma covers things such as personality, physical attractiveness, leadership skills, people skills, ability to affect people, leaving strong impressions... when you want them, in a positive way.

A character's story might say that he's an elven prince of godlike physique and superhuman beauty, used to command and experienced in leading armies. And it's true even if his character is the average 10. The thing is, I wouldn't let him use these features to his advantage over high-charisma characters in the party.

He is pretty, but when he tries to charm a shopkeeper to get items for cheaper, unless the CHA roll succeeds she pretends to haggle with him to better ogle him... but won't actually give him a lower price, and such wastes his time.
He knows how to command, but when he tries to get the city guard to help him, unless the CHA roll succeeds he uses the tone he would use towards his underlings back in the military campaign - and the city guards do NOT approve of some elf talking to them in condescending tone, as if they were worthless. "Who is this guy, thinking he can give orders to humans in a human city?"

So a hot chick can have stat spread at all 8s. However, a hot chick who can leave people speechless and charm people has high Cha. A hot chick who no one seems to like, who seems shallow and cold, whose manipulations are all-too-clear - that character might have a low Charisma.

Stats are about advantages. Good looks aren't, necessarily, one. If it were to be directly tied to a single stat, it would be covered by Charisma, because Charisma is about affecting other people.

DigoDragon
2014-08-05, 07:57 AM
Constitution is all about your bodies shape, for males at least.

:smallconfused:

Maybe you should first ask your GM how physical looks work in their game? Some GMs like myself don't bother giving appearances a mechanical stat and rely more on social skills for presentation (and systems that do have some mechanic for beauty like GURPS don't give it much weight unless you're investing a metric ton of points into it). My opinion is just not to give appearances that much thought and focus on social skills if you want to turn heads. :smallsmile:

tomandtish
2014-08-05, 09:55 AM
There can be lots of reasons why someone physically attractive has low charisma. Take Chandler's girlfriend Janice from Friends. Attractive and good personality, but that voice and laugh probably deduct 3 points...

Gaston from Beauty and the Beast. Very physically attractive. Then you get to know him....

Sartharina
2014-08-05, 10:41 AM
Based on her next sentence, she doesn't like the idea of attractiveness potentially having a mechanical opportunity cost of, say, your ability to fire a gun.
Actually, it doesn't bother me if the attractiveness has a mechanical benefit comparable to firing a gun. I don't like it when, in D&D, dedicating resources to being attractive (Either in roll assignment or point buy) detracts from all other abilities - including Charisma! A pathfinder-style Trait/drawback marking a deviation from normal attractiveness-for-charisma (Charisma does determine appearance in 'tying it all together' - but it's possible to still be CHA 10 and really good-looking if you have the personality of a wet blanket. And even someone not cut out for leadership, if they're good-looking enough, will get people following them - if only to not lose sight of his/her back) works. Even GURPS and Shadowrun are decent about it, since people get their attributes where they want them before they come close to running out of points.

Forrestfire
2014-08-05, 11:05 AM
There can be lots of reasons why someone physically attractive has low charisma. Take Chandler's girlfriend Janice from Friends. Attractive and good personality, but that voice and laugh probably deduct 3 points...

Gaston from Beauty and the Beast. Very physically attractive. Then you get to know him....

I'd actually say that Gaston has a high Charisma score. He's well-liked, very confident, gets people to do what he says through nothing other than reputation and force of personality, and the like. He's an ass, but definitely doesn't have low charisma.

Gamgee
2014-08-05, 12:22 PM
:smallconfused:

If large breasts are a crucial element of your character concept, you may want to consider another RPG system (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/FATAL).

Every time I see that linked all I can think of is this (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Magical_realm).

The Oni
2014-08-06, 12:42 PM
Attractive but low Charisma?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/149324/3491590-7519180859-Raven.jpg

Also, seconded on Gaston. He's got high Cha, but low Int and is a general douchehorse.

Segev
2014-08-06, 12:49 PM
Also, seconded on Gaston. He's got high Cha, but low Int and is a general douchehorse.

I wouldn't call him low Int. He's just an evil jerk. He's disinterested in "intellectual pursuits," but that doesn't take being stupid. He is cunning and doesn't like "thinking," but in truth he plans and thinks a fair bit throughout. He's just a bully, so if he doesn't like something, he puts it down hard. And he clearly thinks little of reading.

Talya
2014-08-06, 01:01 PM
Charisma =/= Appearance. Charisma is force of personality and your ability to influence others with your words, actions, or mind. Sometimes, characters with high Charisma are attractive physically, but sometimes they aren't. Examples of high charisma include Cyrano de Bergerac, Winston Churchill, and JFK.


Not entirely true.

Oh, everything you say after the text I highlighted red above is accuate. But the red text itself is still wrong. This sounds contradictory, and perhaps it is, but the RAW of the matter is this:


Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

"And physical attractivenesss." Sure, you can have an ugly person with high charisma, and a pretty person with low charisma, but appearance is still part of the mélange of disparate qualities that make up Charisma in D&D.

kyoryu
2014-08-06, 01:08 PM
"And physical attractivenesss." Sure, you can have an ugly person with high charisma, and a pretty person with low charisma, but appearance is still part of the mélange of disparate qualities that make up Charisma in D&D.

Ultimately, Charisma mostly is about the effect it has - that of getting people to follow you. That can be partially due to attractiveness, but it's not tied directly to attractiveness.

In *most* cases, more attractive people are more charismatic - this has been proven time and time again in the real world. But it's not true all of the time, and there are *plenty* of examples of highly attractive, but low-charisma people.

The Oni
2014-08-06, 01:13 PM
I wouldn't call him low Int. He's just an evil jerk. He's disinterested in "intellectual pursuits," but that doesn't take being stupid. He is cunning and doesn't like "thinking," but in truth he plans and thinks a fair bit throughout. He's just a bully, so if he doesn't like something, he puts it down hard. And he clearly thinks little of reading.

Low for a PC I mean. 9 probably. Low end of average.

Knaight
2014-08-06, 03:50 PM
I actually like that - or would if GURPS weren't entirely point-based. Even then, the cost tends to be trivial enough to grab or not grab without significantly sacrificing stats.

It's not going to involve sacrificing stats at all. Skills maybe, but given how ridiculously narrow GURPS skills are, that doesn't really cost much, and there are actual mechanical advantages regarding initial reactions.


GURPS aside though, I'd generally agree. Having attractiveness as an attribute is pretty irritating. Having it as an advantage or trait, particularly in systems where the traits/advantages/disadvantages are handled entirely separately to skills and attributes, works quite well.

Snowbluff
2014-08-06, 06:10 PM
Attractive but low Charisma?
Also, seconded on Gaston. He's got high Cha, but low Int and is a general douchehorse.

Raven's abilities are partially innate, so she has a high Cha to power them. Her behavior is part of a drawback.

And who says you have to have social skills to have good cha?

Calimehter
2014-08-06, 09:01 PM
You don't think a stillborn god is the hottest thing ever?

Fail a couple of saves and you might. :smalleek:

Ettina
2014-08-07, 09:15 AM
I wouldn't call him low Int. He's just an evil jerk. He's disinterested in "intellectual pursuits," but that doesn't take being stupid. He is cunning and doesn't like "thinking," but in truth he plans and thinks a fair bit throughout. He's just a bully, so if he doesn't like something, he puts it down hard. And he clearly thinks little of reading.

I don't think Int in D&D is planning things out - I think it's a narrower trait focusing on how well-read you are and how fast you learn things.

Planning things out sounds more like Wis to me. Wisdom seems to focused on understanding people and their motivations (with the exception of the Spot/Listen/etc checks, which are more basic perception), so a character with his Wisdom would probably be able to tell who would do what in a situation, even if they have low Int.

So a character with a 9 Int, 18 Charisma and 18 Wisdom should be good at manipulating others to do what he wants, and understanding the implications of that manipulation, but he won't understand academic pursuits. So he might rise to the top with his skills, and be able to stay there, but not realize that dumping broken magical artifacts in the sewers will lead to giant sewer monsters coming out and ravaging the city.

Coidzor
2014-08-07, 12:05 PM
I wouldn't call him low Int. He's just an evil jerk. He's disinterested in "intellectual pursuits," but that doesn't take being stupid. He is cunning and doesn't like "thinking," but in truth he plans and thinks a fair bit throughout. He's just a bully, so if he doesn't like something, he puts it down hard. And he clearly thinks little of reading.

You don't get a musical number like this with a low Charisma, that's for sure. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuJTqmpBnI0)

Amaril
2014-08-07, 01:29 PM
I don't think Int in D&D is planning things out - I think it's a narrower trait focusing on how well-read you are and how fast you learn things.

Planning things out sounds more like Wis to me. Wisdom seems to focused on understanding people and their motivations (with the exception of the Spot/Listen/etc checks, which are more basic perception), so a character with his Wisdom would probably be able to tell who would do what in a situation, even if they have low Int.

I have to disagree. The ability to come up with ideas and think of multiple possible outcomes in a given situation is pretty explicitly tied to Intelligence--Wisdom is about judging the quality of an idea or the actual likelihood of a particular outcome arising from a specific scenario. Basically, Intelligence is the ability to come up with a plan; Wisdom is the ability to judge whether or not a plan will work.

VeliciaL
2014-08-07, 01:32 PM
I have to disagree. The ability to come up with ideas and think of multiple possible outcomes in a given situation is pretty explicitly tied to Intelligence--Wisdom is about judging the quality of an idea or the actual likelihood of a particular outcome arising from a specific scenario. Basically, Intelligence is the ability to come up with a plan; Wisdom is the ability to judge whether or not a plan will work.

So, moderate Int, low Wis? I could buy it, the dude seemed brilliantly dense.

I've always pictured high Cha, low Wis builds as being "I am the center of the world" sorts of personalities.

Amaril
2014-08-07, 03:08 PM
So, moderate Int, low Wis? I could buy it, the dude seemed brilliantly dense.

I've always pictured high Cha, low Wis builds as being "I am the center of the world" sorts of personalities.

I'm not familiar with Gaston, but from what people are describing here, yeah, I'd say moderate-to-slightly above average Int, low Wis, high Cha, and Evil alignment.

And yeah, that's definitely one very valid interpretation of high Cha, low Wis personalities. There are others, of course, but I imagine that one's pretty common.

Segev
2014-08-07, 03:10 PM
I'd like to note that the current discussion of Gaston is an amusing juxtaposition with the thread topic.

Sartharina
2014-08-07, 03:23 PM
I'd like to note that the current discussion of Gaston is an amusing juxtaposition with the thread topic.

No one derails threads like Gaston!

Wardog
2014-08-07, 03:29 PM
IRL, standards of beauty aren't even universal between different human cultures.

Or even within cultures.

Knaight
2014-08-07, 04:10 PM
Or even within cultures.

Even in fairly miniscule subcultures there's heavy variation at an individual level.

Coidzor
2014-08-07, 05:11 PM
I'd like to note that the current discussion of Gaston is an amusing juxtaposition with the thread topic.

Well, he does seem to have good Con, Cha, Dex, and Str, at the very least.

JusticeZero
2014-08-07, 05:59 PM
The main thing with Wisdom types is that they pay attention. They notice things and intuit relationships and causes. They notice that telltale momentary frown, that small creak, and so on. Most of the hyper cognitive feats of Sherlock style geniuses in popular media is massive Wisdom.
Intelligence means that you know and can remember and sort lots of data. Trivia experts, people who learn quickly and so on.
Charisma is confidence and determination. Confidence is sexy. Lack of confidence isn't, though it might attract the predatory who want to use the people lacking confidence for their own purpose. Looking cute gets you noticed, but doesn't do the job by itself. And the people who turn my head are different from the people who turn other people's heads often.
This is probably a lot more complex than a fixed number. Level should tie in somehow, since adventuring tends to change people. Confidence tends to show in shows of competence, and after a few levels, it's hard not to show up the zero levels at most anything.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-07, 06:37 PM
I've always pictured high Cha, low Wis builds as being "I am the center of the world" sorts of personalities.

Oh man, that's my soon-to-be-Sublime-Chord perfectly. INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 29.


No one derails threads like Gaston!

https://www.iwu.edu/wellness/specialevents/images/cookies.jpeg

Sartharina
2014-08-07, 06:59 PM
Well, he does seem to have good Con, Cha, Dex, and Str, at the very least.

I think he has 18s across the board.

DigoDragon
2014-08-08, 07:41 AM
Classic little thing about D&D stats. I often point this out to explain their roles:

Strength is being able to crush a tomato.
Dexterity is being able to dodge a tomato.
Constitution is being able to eat a bad tomato.
Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.
Charisma is being able to sell a tomato based fruit salad.



I think he has 18s across the board.

No one hax like Gaston?

Icewraith
2014-08-08, 02:43 PM
Or distracts like Gaston.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-08, 03:12 PM
Or runs a thread clear off the tracks like Gaston.

Icewraith
2014-08-08, 03:18 PM
There's no man who's more burly or brawny

There's no man with a higher stat total.

(No way he has max wis or int though.)

Sith_Happens
2014-08-08, 04:24 PM
http://media1.teenormous.com/items/ih3.redbubble.net/image.10648641.4246-fc-550x550-slate.jpg

Icewraith
2014-08-08, 04:27 PM
What? The meter fits, and it doesn't have to match the previous lines. I even came up with an alternate line.

Edit: If we're to stay on track, and fit the meter AND rhyme

"(All) Hot chicks should be DEX-y and CON-y"
"Charsima should still be up there"

Sith_Happens
2014-08-08, 05:13 PM
What? The meter fits, and it doesn't have to match the previous lines. I even came up with an alternate line.

Edit: If we're to stay on track, and fit the meter AND rhyme

"(All) Hot chicks should be DEX-y and CON-y"
"Charsima should still be up there"

I meant dropped by me. I was originally going to go with "Combo Breaker" instead, but that would be weird when I'm part of the combo myself (or so my logic went).

The Oni
2014-08-08, 07:52 PM
Raven's abilities are partially innate, so she has a high Cha to power them. Her behavior is part of a drawback.

And who says you have to have social skills to have good cha?

It's not just the poor social skills. She's not adorably awkward (usually), more actively creepy, and deliberately suppresses any sort of emotion other than slight annoyance. She's got the general look of a sorcerer, but especially considering her meditations and the fact that her powers are explicitly called telekinetic, I'd wager she's naturally psionic, and specifically has levels in Psion, therefore powered by Int.

Esprit15
2014-08-09, 03:41 AM
It's not just the poor social skills. She's not adorably awkward (usually), more actively creepy, and deliberately suppresses any sort of emotion other than slight annoyance. She's got the general look of a sorcerer, but especially considering her meditations and the fact that her powers are explicitly called telekinetic, I'd wager she's naturally psionic, and specifically has levels in Psion, therefore powered by Int.

I'd say that could also be high charisma but a flaw to social skills and no ranks in those skills either. Remember, skill ranks are almost always more important to a skill than ability scores. Think about it: What contributes more? Your 20 CHA, or the 13 ranks in diplomacy? You can have a natural talent for something, but unless you work with that talent, the 8 CHA schlub who practiced how to negotiate is going to do better more often than not than the antisocial sorcerer.

Sartharina
2014-08-09, 10:47 AM
I'd say that could also be high charisma but a flaw to social skills and no ranks in those skills either. Remember, skill ranks are almost always more important to a skill than ability scores. Think about it: What contributes more? Your 20 CHA, or the 13 ranks in diplomacy? You can have a natural talent for something, but unless you work with that talent, the 8 CHA schlub who practiced how to negotiate is going to do better more often than not than the antisocial sorcerer.

This is only true for one edition of D&D. All others have attributes matter significantly more.

Ettina
2014-08-09, 12:17 PM
And yeah, that's definitely one very valid interpretation of high Cha, low Wis personalities. There are others, of course, but I imagine that one's pretty common.

My high Cha-low Wis character was an orphan raised in an orphanage, with Reactive Attachment Disorder as a result. She had a black-and-white view of people as either friends or enemies, and believed anything a 'friend' told her. She'd learnt to be friendly and charming because she craved attention and affection, and like many orphanage kids she would seek affection from pretty much anyone. She was also an very skilled liar, but often she believed her own lies because she had extremely poor self-awareness. (She was a rogue, by the way. I originally intended her to be a tiefling rogue, but switched her to human when my DM decided to restart the campaign in 3.5 instead of 4.)

Esprit15
2014-08-10, 09:22 PM
This is only true for one edition of D&D. All others have attributes matter significantly more.

This I didn't know. I'm not familiar with other versions, nor was it clear that those were what were referenced.

Arbane
2014-08-10, 10:48 PM
This is only true for one edition of D&D. All others have attributes matter significantly more.

Not entirely true - pro 3rd-ed D&D de-emphasizes stats to some extent - for example, in AD&D, you need at least 15 CON to get a measly +1 to HP/level. Which is a good thing, since characters were 'supposed' to be rolled 3d6 six times, in order.
And since there weren't any skills, no problems with skill-ranks overshadowing stats.

JusticeZero
2014-08-10, 10:55 PM
It tied back into Gygax's fetish for random statistical outliers in character generation. There were no shortage of odd tables to roll on that if you got extremely high rolls on, basically handed you a few LA worth of goodies.

Kaeso
2014-08-11, 03:22 AM
The problem here is that we haven't answered what a 'hot chick' is precisely. Is it a soft, classical beauty? A toned, lean atlete? A ripped bodybuilder? An anorexic? A so called Big Beautiful Woman? Because I'm pretty sure only the atlete and bodybuilder would have decent CON stats, while the others would most likely have average or below average CON stats.

Whatever you choose, I think the question isn't so much the choice between CON and CHA, but whether CON should be included. I think the rules already state that CHA is related to physical attractiveness.

Ashtagon
2014-08-11, 05:19 AM
The problem here is that we haven't answered what a 'hot chick' is precisely. Is it a soft, classical beauty? A toned, lean athlete? A ripped body-builder? An anorexic? A so called Big Beautiful Woman? Because I'm pretty sure only the athlete and body-builder would have decent CON stats, while the others would most likely have average or below average CON stats.

Whatever you choose, I think the question isn't so much the choice between CON and CHA, but whether CON should be included. I think the rules already state that CHA is related to physical attractiveness.

Maybe use these numbers as a guideline? Note that these are cinematic guesses and I have no particular medical or physiotherapy expertise. (Also, heart disease, the principal problem with RL obesity, isn't really a factor for most D&D campaigns, and the extra layers of fat is conventionally regarded in D&D as moar hit points, so I kinda figured it cancels out obesity doesn't get a major league Con penalty or bonus. ymmv).

Charisma varies a lot in all cases because frankly, personality is a much bigger factor in Charisma, and there are enough beautiful women who are also wallflowers or downright antisocial that it's possible to be beautiful and have a low Charisma.




Str
Con
Dex
Int
Wis
Cha


Soft Classic Beauty
8-12
8-12
8-12


8-18


Toned, Lean Athlete
10-16
10-16
12-18


8-18


Ripped Bodyuilder
14-18
10-16
10-16


8-18


Anorexic
3-10
3-10
8-12


8-18


Big, Beautiful Woman
8-12
8-12
8-12


8-18

Coidzor
2014-08-11, 04:35 PM
Maybe use these numbers as a guideline? Note that these are cinematic guesses and I have no particular medical or physiotherapy expertise. (Also, heart disease, the principal problem with RL obesity, isn't really a factor for most D&D campaigns, and the extra layers of fat is conventionally regarded in D&D as moar hit points, so I kinda figured it cancels out obesity doesn't get a major league Con penalty or bonus. ymmv).

Charisma varies a lot in all cases because frankly, personality is a much bigger factor in Charisma, and there are enough beautiful women who are also wallflowers or downright antisocial that it's possible to be beautiful and have a low Charisma.




Str
Con
Dex
Int
Wis
Cha


Soft Classic Beauty
8-12
8-12
8-12


8-18


Toned, Lean Athlete
10-16
10-16
12-18


8-18


Ripped Bodyuilder
14-18
10-16
10-16


8-18


Anorexic
3-10
3-10
8-12


8-18


Big, Beautiful Woman
8-12
8-12
8-12


8-18



There's some cases where focusing on bodybuilding can actually lead to a reduction in the strength that can be brought to bear due to focusing on the size of the musculature rather than the function of 'em. Still going to be stronger than most, but not as strong as someone dedicated to training for strength.

Esprit15
2014-08-11, 04:46 PM
There's some cases where focusing on bodybuilding can actually lead to a reduction in the strength that can be brought to bear due to focusing on the size of the musculature rather than the function of 'em. Still going to be stronger than most, but not as strong as someone dedicated to training for strength.

I would assume that to be under the bodybuilding archetype, never the less.

Snowbluff
2014-08-11, 10:11 PM
This is only true for one edition of D&D. All others have attributes matter significantly more. Mhm. A good skill represents practice over a long time and finesse in a particular area.


It tied back into Gygax's fetish for random statistical outliers in character generation. There were no shortage of odd tables to roll on that if you got extremely high rolls on, basically handed you a few LA worth of goodies.



Charisma varies a lot in all cases because frankly, personality is a much bigger factor in Charisma, and there are enough beautiful women who are also wallflowers or downright antisocial that it's possible to be beautiful and have a low Charisma.




Toned, Lean Athlete
10-16
10-16
12-18


8-18



Mmmmmmmmmmm. Snowbluff has spoken.

spineyrequiem
2014-08-12, 06:37 PM
Although everyone has a different idea on exactly what makes someone hot, there are some common themes

1: Health, both due to current circumstances and genetics. Hence why most people find anorexically thin women fairly unattractive (I'm talking about death-camp-survivor, spine-visible types here), along with acne (often indicates dietary issues and possible genetic defects) and bad hair (shiny, lustrous hair tends to indicate health. As long as you haven't been washing it), while conversely we find symmetry and waist-hip ratios of around 0.7 very attractive.

2: Youth, particularly for women, since while men create new batches of sperm every day, women's eggs have been sitting around in their ovaries (in follicle form) since they were born, and thus will be bombarded with a heck of a lot of radiation over the course of her life. This means that older mothers tend to get more birth defects. Typical indicators of this are firm breasts (particularly large ones, which ideally should be symmetrical), facial neoteny and a high, breathy voice.

3: Fitness to bear children. This includes both fertility and actually being able to squeeze the blasted things out (i.e. having a decent-size pelvis). I'm not certain, but I'm fairly sure many masculine traits (heavy jaw, thick wrist bones etc.) tend to correlate with lowered fertility in females, hence why they're generally considered unattractive. Conversely, feminine traits (low waist-hip ratio, high bust-waist ratio) tend to correlate positively with fertility, due to higher estrogen levels. I'm also told that a high waist-hip ratio correlates positively with increased intelligence of children, due to hip fat containing long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids.

Now obviously not all of this holds true for everyone; since some of our taste is, apparently, based on what out parents look like, men born to older mothers apparently prefer older women despite it seeming like a bad idea from an evolutionary perspective, and the human brain is a terrifyingly complicated thing which insists on doing things it shouldn't. However, we can get some basic things which a generally attractive woman will have.

1: Low waist-hip ratio
2: Good skin
3: Shiny hair (just take all the buzzwords from a shampoo advert and apply them)
4: Firm breasts (clearly this is affected by muscle, though a whole variety of factors seem to affect this)
5: General symmetry (of breasts, face, everything really)
6: Facial neoteny (large eyes, small jaw, small nose and probably other stuff)

Since we're in the world of adventurers, let's use a female fighter, Ronda Rousey, as an example. Most agree she's fairly attractive. Sure enough, if we look through pictures of her, we'll notice she has no noticeable hair or skin issues, firm, fairly symmetrical breasts, a symmetrical face with fairly large eyes and a smooth taper towards the chin and (judging from the one photo I could find at the right angle and including enough of her, and some extremely crude measuring), a waist-hip ratio of around 0.76. She looks feminine and attractive despite having shoulders almost the size of her head due to the various other factors.

While clearly Charisma alone won't change all of these, and for that matter one could be very charismatic without necessarily being attractive, in any culture that isn't incredibly primitive Charisma will play a role in how attractive you look, if we assume it to be the ability to pick up on social cues and so on. In particular, make-up can be used to disguise masculine traits and skin issues, and its judicious use would likely be governed by Charisma. Since looking attractive is generally positively correlated with wealth and social status, clearly anyone concerned with raising their social status will get good at looking good.

So is it CON, CHA or something else which affects it? The answer is, really, all of them, except maybe WIS and INT. Quite clearly, if you want to dance alluringly, you've got to have the muscle for it, but at the same time you've got to work out that you need to look alluring in the first place, and, for that matter, what is alluring. Similarly, while nice, clear skin can get you a good way, you'll still stand out less than a girl who's got an awful lot of very cleverly-done makeup on. Ultimately, I think you'd need at least passable STR, DEX, CON and CHA, and after that it's basically just roleplaying and background.

JusticeZero
2014-08-12, 09:12 PM
To me, that sounds like "Some skill, probably based on Charisma", rather than a stat itself.

Segev
2014-08-13, 10:23 AM
Again, for established systems (rather than creating your own), if you want to play "attractive," give your character the stats that let you use that attractiveness how you envision it helping, and then describe them as attractive.

If you want "attractive, but uncharismatic," go ahead and play with low charisma and describe as attractive, anyway. She's just very mousy and fades into the background, is easily ignored, or has really off-putting behaviors. Maybe she's violent or a lush. Maybe she's just plain rude. Maybe she's selfish and mean. Maybe she's stuck up. Maybe she just comes across that way due to her poor social skills. Whatever it is, people think she's hot but still don't like dealing with her.

If you want "homely, but charistmatic," buy the stats that make people like you and describe her as unattractive. She's not the person people want to have on their picture-wall, but people love her when they get to know her. She's sweet and kind, or she's forceful and yet people love her for it, or she's persuasive and likable. People feel good making her feel good, even if they might not want to kiss her just by looking at her. On the other hand, she's such a charmer that the boy might fall for her anyway, and decide that looks are less important than personaltiy. I'm told that if you get to know and love somebody, you stop seeing their physical faults so clearly.

SgtCarnage92
2014-08-13, 07:56 PM
The thing is, every attribute can contribute to a person's overall attractiveness just in different ways and for different reasons.

Strength: A blatant display of physicality is a sign of health and therefore makes someone more attractive. Also someone who is strong is more able to protect young, property, ect.

Dexterity: How flexible or precise somebody is in their motions again is a sign of health and makes an individual more appealing. There's also implications regarding dexterity and performance in certain intimate activities.

Constitution: Again, healthy people are generally considered more sexy. The ability to resist disease being a huge part of that. The ability to survive (and pass that ability to offspring).

All three of the above can affect a person's physical appearance and thus immediate attractiveness, therefore are more likely to come into play for a quick encounter.

Intelligence: Smart is sexy for a lot of people. Compatible intelligence is even more critical as we tend to like people like us (and not those smarter or dumber than us).

Wisdom: Being observant of others behavior and whatnot is critical in a long term relationship, and being able to react accordingly as well.

Charisma: The force of a person's personality can go miles as to whether or not you'll end up with them or not. This also reflects perceived confidence and social graces.

Every stat is a basic competency upon which everything having to do with it are built. Therefore which stat is used to determine if your character is attractive should be decided by WHY they're attractive.

Coidzor
2014-08-13, 08:00 PM
...Has anyone actually encountered a woman with a naturally high, breathy voice? Whenever I've run into it, it's always been just as much of an affectation as the stereotypical "gay" voice that one thankfully runs into less often in media these days.

Palegreenpants
2014-08-13, 08:21 PM
I am loving this thread. Very enlightening.

Frozen_Feet
2014-08-14, 10:50 AM
...Has anyone actually encountered a woman with a naturally high, breathy voice? Whenever I've run into it, it's always been just as much of an affectation as the stereotypical "gay" voice that one thankfully runs into less often in media these days.

Define "natural" voice. Most humans are able to speak in a wide variety of manners. As such, the way a person speaks is very much a matter of habit. A lot of people also speak differently in different occasions intuitively (read: in proximity of babies and cute animals).

Jay R
2014-08-14, 08:02 PM
To answer the original question:

The hot chick who is the leader of her group has high charisma. The hot chick who is following the leader has average charisma or less.

The hot chick who outlasts her lover has high CON. The hot chick who doesn't has average CON or less.

The six characteristics quantify six things, but do not totally define the character. They don't define the gender, height, hair color, accent, hobbies, honor, friendliness, ...

... or hotness.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-14, 08:12 PM
The hot chick who outlasts her lover has high CON. The hot chick who doesn't has average CON or less.

What do you know, it turns out there is a drawback to having high Constitution after all.:smalltongue:

Coidzor
2014-08-14, 09:47 PM
I have to admit, how long a person can have sex before they're too sore to continue is a new one.


Define "natural" voice. Most humans are able to speak in a wide variety of manners. As such, the way a person speaks is very much a matter of habit. A lot of people also speak differently in different occasions intuitively (read: in proximity of babies and cute animals).

I'd be equally impressed if someone could point to an actual area where women were ubiquitously trained to default to such voices. The only area where I can think of where women are expected to culturally drift towards that sort of thing is that abomination known as the valley girl accent which is only similar in that it's high-pitched, but it is squeaky instead of breathy.

If you want to call it someone's habitual neutral tone or some other needlessly specific combination of words, knock yourself out.

Frozen_Feet
2014-08-15, 08:23 AM
I have to admit, how long a person can have sex before they're too sore to continue is a new one.

Actually, Book of Erotic Fantasy has rules for that. So it's an old one.

Talya
2014-08-15, 09:34 AM
I've always pictured high Cha, low Wis builds as being "I am the center of the world" sorts of personalities.

The high charisma just means that almost everyone else thinks the character is the center of the world. It has no bearing on their own ego.

Coidzor
2014-08-15, 11:13 AM
Actually, Book of Erotic Fantasy has rules for that. So it's an old one.

Huh. I read those as how long one can have sex before finishing or succumbing to exhaustion/running out of breath. Ahh, the tricks of memory. XD

VeliciaL
2014-08-15, 05:37 PM
The high charisma just means that almost everyone else thinks the character is the center of the world. It has no bearing on their own ego.

I thought that force of personality is an aspect of charisma though. It's why sorcerers cast with it.

And I've always figured ego and force of personality go hand in hand.

Edit: That said, the stats are broad enough that there are lots of valid interpretations of them.

Coidzor
2014-08-15, 06:03 PM
I thought that force of personality is an aspect of charisma though. It's why sorcerers cast with it.

And I've always figured ego and force of personality go hand in hand.


That's part of why I liked the change in 4e where Will defense was based on Wisdom or Charisma and like bringing that element into 3.X's Will Save formulation.

Frozen_Feet
2014-08-15, 06:52 PM
I thought that force of personality is an aspect of charisma though. It's why sorcerers cast with it.

Let me rephrase what Talya said: sorcerers can cast spells because the world thinks sorcerers are the center of the world. :smalltongue::smallwink:

Jay R
2014-08-15, 08:34 PM
I have to admit, how long a person can have sex before they're too sore to continue is a new one.

New? It's affected system shock since 1979.

VeliciaL
2014-08-15, 09:03 PM
Let me rephrase what Talya said: sorcerers can cast spells because the world thinks sorcerers are the center of the world. :smalltongue::smallwink:

I think Wizards would disagree with that whole "world" bit. :smallbiggrin:

Sartharina
2014-08-15, 09:36 PM
I think Wizards would disagree with that whole "world" bit. :smallbiggrin:

Well, wizards are hipster nerds who's opinions don't count.

Tweekinator
2014-08-15, 09:49 PM
So I want to make a new character for an upcoming campaign and had the idea in mind to make this one chick which is really beautiful and charming, but very thuglike and greedy. A bit like Nami from One Peace if that says something to anyone here. And I wondered which attributes would be most fit for a character like this. Certainly Charisma is going to be big because of the social aspect. But to what degree does this determine the good looks (which is kinda important to me) of my character. As much as I understand it Charisma is the ability to have a nice appearance and be talkative. But the physique of the body is not affected, like at all. Constitution is all about your bodies shape, for males at least. But does it really make sense to put extra points in CON to have big boobs. Like, I don't have a problem with that, but the bonus HP is what confuses me. Hot Chicks aren't tanks, it seems unreasonable to me to think that every good looking character ingame has tons of HP. If I'm not mistaken, if you want to have a handsome looking male character ingame you have to put some stats into strenght and con. (strenght not being a factor for women because they don't need to be ripped) Are women an excuse with determining their beauty? Do you roll D20 during character creation, do you just tell the DM how your character should look like (male and female alike, no matter the scores) or do you determine it by their CHA score? How do you handle this kind of obscure problem?
If you have any feedback or comments you can leave them in the post section somewhere B E L O W.
edit: yeah i know im not great with paragraphs

Nice troll post. Reported.

Sartharina
2014-08-15, 09:57 PM
Nice troll post. Reported.For what? :smallconfused:

SaintRidley
2014-08-15, 10:11 PM
All I know for certain is that this thread has inspired me. Next time I get into a more comedic game, I'll be playing a sorcerer by the name of Derek Zoolander. His entire repertoire of somatic components will be runway moves.

Coidzor
2014-08-15, 10:17 PM
All I know for certain is that this thread has inspired me. Next time I get into a more comedic game, I'll be playing a sorcerer by the name of Derek Zoolander. His entire repertoire of somatic components will be runway moves.

All is right with the world again. :smallsmile:

Knaight
2014-08-15, 10:28 PM
I thought that force of personality is an aspect of charisma though. It's why sorcerers cast with it.

And I've always figured ego and force of personality go hand in hand.


I've known a few people who had some real force of personality and no real ego (not that many, mostly because exceptional force of personality is rare). I've known a number of major egotists that have no real force of personality. They don't go hand in hand.

VeliciaL
2014-08-15, 10:30 PM
I've known a few people who had some real force of personality and no real ego (not that many, mostly because exceptional force of personality is rare). I've known a number of major egotists that have no real force of personality. They don't go hand in hand.

Good point. I don't know any myself, but I've heard of people like this.

Mexikorn
2014-08-17, 10:57 AM
All I know for certain is that this thread has inspired me. Next time I get into a more comedic game, I'll be playing a sorcerer by the name of Derek Zoolander. His entire repertoire of somatic components will be runway moves.

Actually, I already came up with that idea too. His background is, he was a superstar/popstar (the thing that get's closest to manmodel) bard which got fed up with being rich and popular and good looking and wanted to go on an adventure and help people or so... it's some time since I actually saw the movie. Putting lots of points into Str/Dex/Con/Cha and very very little into Int/Wis. Then I'd have to roleplay a moronic character, but how to properly make your Ingame char act stupid without blocking YOURself to much is a topic for another thread.

Sartharina
2014-08-17, 10:59 AM
Actually, I already came up with that idea too. His background is, he was a superstar/popstar (the thing that get's closest to manmodel) bard which got fed up with being rich and popular and good looking and wanted to go on an adventure and help people or so... it's some time since I actually saw the movie. Putting lots of points into Str/Dex/Con/Cha and very very little into Int/Wis. Then I'd have to roleplay a moronic character, but how to properly make your Ingame char act stupid without blocking YOURself to much is a topic for another thread.

Actually, the thing closest to Male Model is Male Model, not Superstar/Popstar. Male models are a thing (As are male strippers)

Mexikorn
2014-08-18, 07:28 AM
Actually, the thing closest to Male Model is Male Model, not Superstar/Popstar. Male models are a thing (As are male strippers)

You have to show me that class! What class abilities do they have? Where do they work in a middle-age'ish setting in Pathfinder/DnD3.5? Or do you just play a bard with having a past of being a male model? Then how does it explain that they are bards and have bard'ish abilites?
I might be thinking a bit complicated here and/or being a bit sarcastic but that's just me.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-18, 07:37 AM
You have to show me that class! What class abilities do they have? Where do they work in a middle-age'ish setting in Pathfinder/DnD3.5? Or do you just play a bard with having a past of being a male model? Then how does it explain that they are bards and have bard'ish abilites?
I might be thinking a bit complicated here and/or being a bit sarcastic but that's just me.

Perform (Male Modeling) is almost certainly valid. File it under Dance if you want to stick with the existing categories.

Sartharina
2014-08-18, 11:28 AM
Or just have a good Charisma. I was playing a Male Stripper-Turned-Paladin in a campaign that recently collapsed.

Mexikorn
2014-08-18, 12:36 PM
Or just have a good Charisma. I was playing a Male Stripper-Turned-Paladin in a campaign that recently collapsed.

I believe you, but let's be honest. A male stripper is way more believable in a middle-aged setting than a male model. Littlefinger in GoT hires male prostitutes. But male models are a different thing, who would hire them and for what purpose? Unless it's basically the same thing I can't imagine how I can have a past as a "successful and well known!!!" male model. That's kinda the point of being Derek Zoolander.
No offense, I'm not implying I'm being or sounding offensive but I don't want to appear aggressive.

Frozen_Feet
2014-08-18, 12:50 PM
A funny fact: Geisha of Japan were, at one point, predominantly young boys and men. A Geisha would fit all of model, superstar, singer, dancer and prostitute. :smallwink::smalltongue:

Icewraith
2014-08-18, 01:20 PM
Alright so the consensus for the stat distribution of a hot chick is as follows:

STR: 8-18
DEX: 8-18
CON: 8-18
INT: 8-18
WIS: 8-18
CHA: 8-18

With at least one stat, dependant on the particular description of the hotness of the chick, being 15 or better and the higher the stat total the more likely there will be agreement that the chick is, in fact, "hot".

Alternatively: Use fire elemental bloodline/fire genasi, raptoran/half-celestial/chocobo, or pyromancer/cleric(fire domain) as supporting character choices.

VeliciaL
2014-08-18, 01:27 PM
Alternatively: Use ... chocobo ... as supporting character choices.

You have weird fetishes...

Icewraith
2014-08-18, 01:31 PM
You have weird fetishes...

Are you saying you wouldn't consider a fire elemental bloodline chocobo pyromancer a "hot chick"?

Edit: Or, apparently, a pun fail?

VeliciaL
2014-08-18, 01:47 PM
Are you saying you wouldn't consider a fire elemental bloodline chocobo pyromancer a "hot chick"?

Edit: Or, apparently, a pun fail?

...

...

...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg

Less pun fail, more I'm slow.

Coidzor
2014-08-18, 02:04 PM
I believe you, but let's be honest. A male stripper is way more believable in a middle-aged setting than a male model. Littlefinger in GoT hires male prostitutes. But male models are a different thing, who would hire them and for what purpose? Unless it's basically the same thing I can't imagine how I can have a past as a "successful and well known!!!" male model. That's kinda the point of being Derek Zoolander.
No offense, I'm not implying I'm being or sounding offensive but I don't want to appear aggressive.

Meh. Fashion houses need male models too if you're operating under the general not actually medieval model anyway.

There are artists who like painting things other than (nude) women, and whether or not you want to take that towards the homoerotic is up to you.

No need to limit yourself to such hidebound thinking.

SaintRidley
2014-08-18, 11:34 PM
Actually, I already came up with that idea too. His background is, he was a superstar/popstar (the thing that get's closest to manmodel) bard which got fed up with being rich and popular and good looking and wanted to go on an adventure and help people or so... it's some time since I actually saw the movie. Putting lots of points into Str/Dex/Con/Cha and very very little into Int/Wis. Then I'd have to roleplay a moronic character, but how to properly make your Ingame char act stupid without blocking YOURself to much is a topic for another thread.

Zoolander should have sky high Cha, high Dex (the better to pull off his moves), low end mediocre Str and Con (*cough* I got the Black Lung, Pop *cough*), and dump Wis/Int. I'd go 8/18/8/6/6/18 from PB, for a 28 PB total.

I do like the Bard idea, though. It's so hot right now.

Mexikorn
2014-08-19, 06:58 AM
Zoolander should have sky high Cha, high Dex (the better to pull off his moves), low end mediocre Str and Con (*cough* I got the Black Lung, Pop *cough*), and dump Wis/Int. I'd go 8/18/8/6/6/18 from PB, for a 28 PB total.

I do like the Bard idea, though. It's so hot right now.

I don't get your argument for this low STR and CON tho. He's a model doing "phsyical exercise" for a living, shouldnt it be at least average? He may not have shown any particularily amazing feats in the movie but he was chosen to be a male model assasin. I doubt high dex (and being a total moron) was the only criteria.


Meh. Fashion houses need male models too if you're operating under the general not actually medieval model anyway.

There are artists who like painting things other than (nude) women, and whether or not you want to take that towards the homoerotic is up to you.

No need to limit yourself to such hidebound thinking.

Yeah, yeah, I get where you're going.
The thing is (I'm pedantic) even if you were a male model in the biggest "fashion industry" on the middle age planet, I'm pretty certain only rich merchants and nobility would know you. There is no (plausible) way to spread advertisment all the way to the common folk, which kinda means he's not exactly popular. And even if you were, no one would buy your stuff because they can't afford it. If that makes any sense. You know what I mean? It's difficult. (in my mind) And yes I believe being a popular musician is different :/ ?

The Insanity
2014-08-19, 07:20 AM
I don't get your argument for this low STR and CON tho. He's a model doing "phsyical exercise" for a living, shouldnt it be at least average? He may not have shown any particularily amazing feats in the movie but he was chosen to be a male model assasin. I doubt high dex (and being a total moron) was the only criteria.
Yup. The villain chose male super models for his assassins because of their perfect physical fitness, IIRC. They have to work out a lot to get those sculpted bodies and they move a lot when working. That was the joke at least, because we know that although some models are in good shape, it doesn't mean they're Olympic athletes.


The thing is (I'm pedantic) even if you were a male model in the biggest "fashion industry" on the middle age planet, I'm pretty certain only rich merchants and nobility would know you.
I'd say it would be cityfolk in general. Even if you're too poor to buy such clothes, it's free to watch, no?

Mexikorn
2014-08-19, 07:37 AM
Yup. The villain chose male super models for his assassins because of their perfect physical fitness, IIRC. They have to work out a lot to get those sculpted bodies and they move a lot when working. That was the joke at least, because we know that although some models are in good shape, it doesn't mean they're Olympic athletes.


I'd say it would be cityfolk in general. Even if you're too poor to buy such clothes, it's free to watch, no?

watch where? television broadcast? advertisments so the people who are to poor to be a target group for product placement can see you? or just open air shows with lots of commoners around? doesnt make sense in my mind

The Insanity
2014-08-19, 10:02 AM
watch where?
Um, where the fashion show is being held?


advertisments so the people who are to poor to be a target group for product placement can see you? or just open air shows with lots of commoners around?
I'd imagine they would want as many people as possible to know of their clothes, so general advertisement, plus personal invitations for the rich and influential, is likely. Also not all citizens are commoners and some are able to afford at least one nice suit. And yes, open air shows would probably be a thing.


doesnt make sense in my mind
Well, it does in my.

Leon
2014-08-19, 10:11 AM
Appearance is best represented by a feat.

Its best left to a Character description.

JusticeZero
2014-08-21, 06:12 PM
If you want to have a tangible effect on how NPCs react to you, the rule of "it don't mean a thing till you've paid for that swing" is going to come up.

AMFV
2014-08-21, 06:23 PM
To add my two cents. Different high stats can represent different aspects of what we consider to be attractive. Charisma is a flowing and amazing personality, so somebody who is just magnetic could have high Charisma they could be perceived as very attractive. Quickness of wit is intelligence, wittiness can be attractive (as seen in Much Ado About Nothing). Wisdom is constancy and the ability to deal well with scenarios, faithfulness, holding to your principles, a very attractive trait (As we see in Persuasion). High Con can reflect an overall healthy person. Depending. High Dex generally represents a leanness which is often found attractive, and strength represents tone and tautness of muscle.

It's also worth noting that high stats in those areas don't necessarily represent any of those things, it's just a variety of different ways that people can be attracted to a particular person.