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PowerGamer
2014-08-04, 01:13 AM
I've been playing 3.5 for a long time but our group is thinking of trying out Pathfinder. I'm collaborating with 2 others as GMs (I'm more of the mechanics and they are the story). Any who, we are trying to design a vampire-like template for our players at a level adjustment of +0 or +1. I have the Pathfinder version of the Vampire but it only give you an increased challenge rating and not an actual level adjustment for creation purposes. Here's what I'm looking at so far

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +1.
Senses: A vampire gains darkvision 30 ft.
Defensive Abilities: A vampire gains channel resistance +2, DR 5/silver, and resistance to cold 5 and electricity 5.
Weaknesses: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from mirrors or strongly presented holy symbols. These things don't harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against that creature. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action. After 1 round, a vampire can overcome its revulsion of the object and function normally each round it makes a DC 15 Will save.
Driving a wooden stake through a helpless vampire's heart instantly slays it (this is a full-round action). However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the head is also severed and anointed with holy water.
Melee: A vampire gains a slam attack if the base creature didn't have one. Damage for the slam depends on the vampire's size (see Natural Attacks). Its natural weapons are treated as non-magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Special Attacks:
Blood Drain (Su): A vampire can suck blood from a grappled opponent; if the vampire establishes or maintains a pin, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage. The vampire heals 5 hit points or gains 5 temporary hit points for 1 hour (up to a maximum number of temporary hit points equal to its full normal hit points) each round it drains blood.
Ability Scores Str +2, Dex +2, Cha +2.
Skills: Vampires gain a +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth checks.

This is for an oriental themed campaign and we are trying to be somewhat realistic with some fantasy elements involved.
We like the idea of blood drain but don't want to over power the players too much. Does this seem fair for a LA+1 template? This is my first time helping to GM and one of my first homebrews. Any honest help would be much appreciated.

Stellar_Magic
2014-08-04, 10:33 AM
Why not increase the starting level by 1 and just use the normal template? I know it's strong and all... but if you're including a vampire, that's something to be expected.

Xuldarinar
2014-08-04, 11:01 AM
Points I have to make, even though I am not at all opposed to the concept of the template, even think its an interesting Idea.

1: Unless my memory is failing me on this one, Pathfinder does not use Level Adjustments.

2: For existing ways to pull off the vampire without being one, consider the following options.
Play a Dhampir: You are half vampire. While you can get fangs by dropping their spell-like abilities, I have a feeling its not quite what you are looking for.
Play a Sanguine Bloodline Sorcerer: Though it narrows you to one class (and to a specific archetype at that) it does accomplish the blood drinking thing at 1st level. If you do not mind multi classing, dip 1 level in Sorcerer for that and you have it. If you wanted to be a sorcerer anyways, so much the better. If you do not mind third party content, the Cabalist Archetype for the magus which also grants access to a bloodline of one's choice. While it may be pushing things, slap the Sanguine bloodline on it and at 7th you can drink the blood of your enemies.



There are other things that deal in blood and the undead, but I thought these two would be the closest things.

PowerGamer
2014-08-04, 04:41 PM
Why not increase the starting level by 1 and just use the normal template? I know it's strong and all... but if you're including a vampire, that's something to be expected.
It's a racial option if the players want it. As is, the base information for making a vampure is the equivalent to the 3.5 template which is a LA+8. Giving that to a player for LA+1 is not balanced to anyone who doesn't want to take that route.


Points I have to make, even though I am not at all opposed to the concept of the template, even think its an interesting Idea.

1: Unless my memory is failing me on this one, Pathfinder does not use Level Adjustments.

2: For existing ways to pull off the vampire without being one, consider the following options.
Play a Dhampir: You are half vampire. While you can get fangs by dropping their spell-like abilities, I have a feeling its not quite what you are looking for.
Play a Sanguine Bloodline Sorcerer: Though it narrows you to one class (and to a specific archetype at that) it does accomplish the blood drinking thing at 1st level. If you do not mind multi classing, dip 1 level in Sorcerer for that and you have it. If you wanted to be a sorcerer anyways, so much the better. If you do not mind third party content, the Cabalist Archetype for the magus which also grants access to a bloodline of one's choice. While it may be pushing things, slap the Sanguine bloodline on it and at 7th you can drink the blood of your enemies.



There are other things that deal in blood and the undead, but I thought these two would be the closest things.
1: I haven't played much pathfinder to know, but I haven't noticed it either.
2: The Dhampir is more along the lines of what we want, but with fangs instead of spell like abilities.
Sanguine Bloodline:We don't want to limit the players options more than we already are based on how we are doing character creation. But if the player is a sorcerer, this is a nice alternative for them to look into
Cabalist Archetype: not the right flavor we are looking for.

Milo v3
2014-08-04, 08:31 PM
2: The Dhampir is more along the lines of what we want, but with fangs instead of spell like abilities.

Wait, then why not be a dhampir with the fangs racial trait?

PowerGamer
2014-08-05, 02:35 AM
Wait, then why not be a dhampir with the fangs racial trait?

Where is that located? I'm not seeing it on the Dhampire page on pfsrd.

silphael
2014-08-05, 06:16 AM
Well, LA of 3.5 template is horribly bad calculated. In 3.P, the simplest way is usually to consider the CR adjust as LA. Of course it makes a very strong template, but don't forget it asks for 5 HD. We used it once as it, putting first LA at level 1, and second after 5 HD. At first LA you simply get a small part of the modifiers, and the rest at 2nd LA. At those levels, you already are one spell level late, and it's usually enough to put you late. Only thing is that you're though as nails, and really killing you will need some concerted move from the GM.

Milo v3
2014-08-05, 06:40 AM
Where is that located? I'm not seeing it on the Dhampire page on pfsrd.

It's in the Alternate Racial Traits section of Dhampir, called Fangs. Here:

Fangs: On occasion, a dhampir may inherit his father's lengthy canines. Whenever the dhampir makes a grapple combat maneuver check to damage an opponent, he can choose to bite his opponent, dealing 1d3 points of damage as if using a natural bite attack. As a standard action, the dhampir can bite a creature that is bound, helpless, paralyzed, or similarly unable to defend itself. This racial trait replaces the spell-like ability racial trait.

gr8artist
2014-08-05, 08:32 AM
Add more mechanics to the weaknesses- sickened in garlic, shaken in the presence of a mirror or holy symbol. Allow called shots against the heart to auto-crit, or instakill if the weapon is made of wood.
Sunlight damage?

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-05, 03:21 PM
I've actually been working on a template for vampires in the Legacy of Kain series, it might be around a +2, if you reduce the stat bonuses it might be +1, but I'm no expert.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341005-Nosgothian-Vampire-LoK-3-5-Template

Aergoth
2014-08-06, 11:03 PM
Pathfinder doesn't technically use LA, but runs with a system based off the number of race points (RP) it takes to create that race. It's not much better, since some of the traits are still gamebreaking and you can buy RP back with negative traits. Pathfinder does also recognize that beyond a give point, being of a slightly more "powerful" race doesn't really matter.

As far as your vampire, building that with RP probably isn't too hard. the Dhampir offers a pretty good starting point and is reckoned at 11 RP (Low +1. For comparison, Aasimar are 15 RP)

So, the high-concept here is a standard vampire as a playable race. We're aiming at LA +1 which gives us a total of 20 RP to spend, and a total of 4 traits per category.

In here is a bunch of stuff explaining how this was put together that isn't terribly important. Scroll down for a cool blood drinking option I cludged togther.

Buying the undead type costs 16 RP, and probably isn't worth it. Humanoid costs us nothing, and we'll work out the details later. Most humanoid creatures have a subtype, so we'll call this (Half-Undead). 0 RP spent.
Next up is size and movement speed. We're aiming for bog standard here. Medium and 30 foot move speed again cost nothing. 0 RP spent.

Now we get into important things. Ability score modifiers. The standard for 0 RP offers +2 on a physical ability score (Str, Dex Con) and +2 on a mental ability score (Int Wis Cha) with -2 landing anywhere else. Based on the default vampire, this might look like +2 Str, +2 Cha, -2 Con (Based on the fact that they're quasi-undead). Still at 0 RP spent.

Language options aren't terribly important. The standard option allows 7 bonus languages for PCs with a high INT mod, and costs nothing. Total RP spent: 0

Traits: This is where we're getting most of the bang for the buck.

Defensive:
Undead Resistance (1 RP): Members of this race gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against disease and mind-affecting effects.
Resist Level Drain (1 RP): Members of this race take no penalty from energy-draining effects, though a member of this race can still be killed if it accrues more negative levels than it has Hit Dice. After 24 hours, any negative levels a member of this race has accrued are removed without the need for any additional saving throws.
Shadow Resistance (2 RP): Resist Electricity 5 and Resist Cold 5
4 RP spent

Offense:
Bite (2 RP): Does what it says on the tin. Taking it twice increases the damage of the bite attack by a step.
6 RP Spent

Magic:
Hypnotic (2 RP): Members of this race add +1 to the DC for all saving throws against spells or effects they cast that inflict the fascinated condition. Once per day, when a creature rolls a saving throw against such an effect from a member of this race, the member of the race can force that creature to reroll the saving throw and use the second result, even if it is worse.
8 RP Spent

Skills:
Silver Tongued (3 RP): Members of this race gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks. In addition, when they use Diplomacy to shift a creature's attitude, they can do so up to three steps up rather than just two.
Stalker (1 RP): Perception and Stealth are always class skills.
12 RP Spent

Senses
Carrion Sense (1 RP): As scent but for dead things and creatures that are badly wounded (25% health or lower)
Darkvision 120 Ft (3 RP): What it says on the box.
16 RP Spent

Weaknesses
Negative Energy Affinity: (-1 RP) As the Dhampir. Negative energy heals you, positive energy harms you.
Sunlight Powerlessness (-2 RP): Members of this race are powerless in natural sunlight (this does not include light created by effects such as a daylight spell). A member of this race caught in natural sunlight cannot attack and is staggered.
13 RP Spent


The only thing left to do is throw a suffiently interesting "blood drain" like ability on here. The Dhampir has an excellent basis for this in the form of the "Blood Drinker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/blood-drinker-dhampir)" and "Blood Salvage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/blood-salvage-dhampir)" feats. Unfortunately, the former restricts you to a particular type of humanoid. If we expand this to any living humanoid, we've got an interesting basis for a blood drain ability which we can assume is worth at most the remaining 7 RP that keeps this race at a +1 LA

Haemovore:
Whenever you attack a humanoid creature with your bite attack you may drink it's blood. You gain 5 temporary hit points and a +1 bonus on checks and saves based on Constitution when you drink blood. The effects last 1 hour. If you feed multiple times, you continue to gain hit points to a maximum of 5 temporary hit points for every three Hit Dice you have, but the +1 bonus on Constitution-based skill checks and saving throws does not stack. Drinking blood deals 2 points of Constitution damage to the creature you feed upon.
(This wasn't really an option in the race building rules. The static bonus feat requirs no pre-requisites and costs 2 RP. This probably qualifies as an advanced trait with a natural bite attack as a pre-requisite and is worth something in the neighbourhood of 4-6 RP? That would bring us to a conservative 19 RP)

But maybe this doesn't quite work. Other options could include: improving the Sanguine/Undead bloodline as the Infernal Bloodline trait does, using the Hypnotic Gaze trait rather than simply hypnotic, replacing Sunlight Powerlessness with Light Sensitivity, adding the ability to be repelled by garlic, mirrors and holy symbols as a vampire (which didn't have an RP value option but I'd rate it as a -1)

TL; DR.

A roughly LA +1 vampire themed humanoid race in case the Dhampir doesn't meet your needs.
Spawn of the Vampire (Half-Vampire)

Type: Humanoid (Half-Undead)
Size: Medium
Ability Score Modifiers: +2 Str, -2 Con, +2 Cha. Spawn are physical powerful and alluring but lack the vitality of the truly living.
Speed: 30 Feet
Languages: Common +7 bonus languages for high int characters

Racial Traits
Defensive:
Undead Resistance: Spawn of the Vampire gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against disease and mind-affecting effects.
Resist Level Drain: Spawn take no penalty from energy-draining effects, though a member of this race can still be killed if it accrues more negative levels than it has Hit Dice. After 24 hours, any negative levels a member of this race has accrued are removed without the need for any additional saving throws.
Shadow Resistance: Spawn gain Resist Electricity 5 and Resist Cold 5

Feats and Skill Racial Traits:
Silver Tongued: Spawn of the Vampire gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks. In addition, when they use Diplomacy to shift a creature's attitude, they can do so up to three steps up rather than just two.
Stalker: Perception and Stealth are always class skills for a Spawn.

Magical Racial Traits:
Hypnotic: Spawn of the Vampire add +1 to the DC for all saving throws against spells or effects they cast that inflict the fascinated condition. Once per day, when a creature rolls a saving throw against such an effect from a member of this race, the member of the race can force that creature to reroll the saving throw and use the second result, even if it is worse.

Offensive Racial Traits:
Bite: A Spawn of the Vampire has a natural bite attack that deals 1d4 points of damage.
Haemovore: Whenever you attack a humanoid creature with your bite attack you may drink it's blood. You gain 5 temporary hit points and a +1 bonus on checks and saves based on Constitution when you drink blood. The effects last 1 hour. If you feed multiple times, you continue to gain hit points to a maximum of 5 temporary hit points for every three Hit Dice you have, but the +1 bonus on Constitution-based skill checks and saving throws does not stack. Drinking blood deals 2 points of Constitution damage to the creature you feed upon.

Weaknesses:
Negative Energy Affinity:A Spawn of the Vampire straddles the line between living and dead. Though technically a "living" creature it reacts to positive and negative energy as if it were undead—positive energy harms it, while negative energy heals it.
Sunlight Powerlessness: Spawn of the Vampire are powerless in natural sunlight (this does not include light created by effects such as a daylight spell). Spawn caught in natural sunlight cannot attack and is staggered.

PowerGamer
2014-08-06, 11:25 PM
Thank you everyone for the help. I'm working with the other GMs now and I think we got it from here. Thank you for pointing out Dhampir and noting that races are based off of RP in pathfinder.