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JusticeZero
2014-08-07, 07:50 PM
So you're the King of a small warlordy kingdom, and you have trouble with a dragon or whatever that your army just isn't up to dealing with. Years ago, you would have grabbed your friends and gone to battle, but these days, your joints creak, you can barely swing your mighty greatsword anymore, and you just aren't feeling all that powerful. Your kids? Freaking lazy accountants who barely know which end of the sword is the stabby one.. They couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.
Then some adventurers go out into the woods to kill the dragon. You figure "yeah, okay, my daughter for defeating the dragon, since let's face it, if they get mad anyone who can take down THAT thing can probably solo my castle anyways. This way I at least get to retire with my wife first, and it more or less stays in the family".
Then some lady in fancy armor that's probably worth more than every piece of siege available to you by itself comes wandering back carrying a dragons head in a cart and a rune covered glowing sword thing by her side, and you realize she probably isn't going to be interested in your lazy kid son, and most likely the princess won't be that appealing either..

What to do at this stage?

WarKitty
2014-08-07, 07:54 PM
How common are female adventurers in this fantasy world?

Angelalex242
2014-08-07, 07:59 PM
Offer the prince's hand anyway. Becoming royalty is still useful, particularly if she can then command royal wizards to make magic items at reduced cost thereafter.

Claim taking the son ensures the safety of your kingdom.

Kid Jake
2014-08-07, 08:01 PM
He could always adopt her into the royal family. It'd be a mostly symbolic act; but it'd make the adventuring lady happy and impress all the local lords until she winds up dead in a ditch on the Elemental Plane of Muggings(as adventurers are prone to do).

Gracht Grabmaw
2014-08-07, 08:03 PM
The marriage isn't the actual reward, the actual reward is the power, wealth and influence you get along with it. If the hero isn't elligible or interested in the marriage, there's other ways to grant that those things. Just give her a title, lands, castles, retainers, maybe publicly adopt her into your family and make her your heir. That'll do just fine.

Sartharina
2014-08-07, 08:06 PM
How common are female adventurers in this fantasy world?50%, of course!


The marriage isn't the actual reward, the actual reward is the power, wealth and influence you get along with it. If the hero isn't elligible or interested in the marriage, there's other ways to grant that those things. Just give her a title, lands, castles, retainers, maybe publicly adopt her into your family and make her your heir. That'll do just fine.

This. You don't need to really offer marriage - even if it had been a guy who showed up. Or, if you're really progressive, offer the hand of either.

Arbane
2014-08-07, 08:10 PM
maybe publicly adopt her into your family and make her your heir. That'll do just fine.

Warning: May cause plot-hooks.

jaydubs
2014-08-07, 08:10 PM
So you're the King of a small warlordy kingdom, and you have trouble with a dragon or whatever that your army just isn't up to dealing with. Years ago, you would have grabbed your friends and gone to battle, but these days, your joints creak, you can barely swing your mighty greatsword anymore, and you just aren't feeling all that powerful. Your kids? Freaking lazy accountants who barely know which end of the sword is the stabby one.. They couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.
Then some adventurers go out into the woods to kill the dragon. You figure "yeah, okay, my daughter for defeating the dragon, since let's face it, if they get mad anyone who can take down THAT thing can probably solo my castle anyways. This way I at least get to retire with my wife first, and it more or less stays in the family".
Then some lady in fancy armor that's probably worth more than every piece of siege available to you by itself comes wandering back carrying a dragons head in a cart and a rune covered glowing sword thing by her side, and you realize she probably isn't going to be interested in your lazy kid son, and most likely the princess won't be that appealing either..

What to do at this stage?

I question the assumptions behind the question. If the princes are lazy accountants, why wouldn't the princesses be lazy accountants? If the female adventurer wouldn't be interested in lazy accountant princes, why would male adventurers be interested in lazy accountant princesses?

Actually, if you did happen to be an adventurer with machinations of power, a lazy accountant prince/princess might be precisely what you are looking for in a political marriage. Lazy = unambitious and easy to control. Accountant = administrator. Sounds like the type of person you'd want to leave behind to run things while you're out adventuring, so you don't come back with either the throne usurped or the kingdom in economic ruin.

Mando Knight
2014-08-07, 08:13 PM
Marrying off either of the children means that you value the champion more than any possible political pairing. Generally, the alternative reward is (at least symbolically) up to half the kingdom.

If she wants to make a claim to the throne by marrying your lazy son, let her. If she's not into worthless men, a duchy may be in order.

The Glyphstone
2014-08-07, 08:15 PM
Depending on how anachronistically progressive your kingdom is, double-checking her own preferences before making an offer would be in order as well.

Mark Hall
2014-08-07, 08:22 PM
I'd lean towards the "adopt this worthy heir" (that's essentially how Wiglaf became King of the Geats; he stood up with Beowulf when others did not), but there are some interesting questions raised above.

There are two essential reasons for a royal to get married... one is to unite two lines, and the other is to produce heirs. Uniting the families happens pretty much no matter what, so long as you don't abuse your spouse to the point where they leave and incite their family to fight for their honor. But heirs are a different matter.

Now, it doesn't matter all that much, from a family perspective, whether or not the child particularly WANTS to create heirs, because that's their duty; in that sense, homosexual men have it easier than lesbians, because you can always get your wife knocked up by someone else when you're not interested in women, but it's not convenient, most of the time, to have someone else bear the children you're supposed to. "A father is an opinion, a mother is a fact", as they used to say before DNA testing and Maury Povich.

Now, I've got another suggestion for this king... don't marry her to your son, marry her yourself. She becomes Queen, and gains responsibility for your children... but also takes over the throne when you go.

The Glyphstone
2014-08-07, 08:30 PM
Now, I've got another suggestion for this king... don't marry her to your son, marry her yourself. She becomes Queen, and gains responsibility for your children... but also takes over the throne when you go.

What happens to his existing wife, as mentioned towards the end of the OP?:smallbiggrin:

Kid Jake
2014-08-07, 08:34 PM
What happens to his existing wife, as mentioned towards the end of the OP?:smallbiggrin:

She's replaced with someone younger, prettier and more adept at dragon slaying?

Silus
2014-08-07, 09:24 PM
...Elemental Plane of Muggings...

Just poppin' in to say I'ma steal this >.>

VoxRationis
2014-08-07, 09:43 PM
I would give the she-knight a title independently of marriage. Marrying her to your son wouldn't be productive; she's more useful as a warrior than as a producer of grandchildren. Unless you don't trust her, and want to bog her down with children...

JusticeZero
2014-08-07, 09:54 PM
I would give the she-knight a title independently of marriage. Marrying her to your son wouldn't be productive; she's more useful as a warrior than as a producer of grandchildren. Unless you don't trust her, and want to bog her down with children...
Well, it's a warlordy situation. Your mighty kingdom only covers a couple of map hexes, but nobody else's kingdoms are much bigger. Your children don't even rate CR 1, and the lady with the dragon head looks like she could take on your entire castle as a more or less CR-appropriate encounter. Your military might try a coup once you're out of the scene, if nobody can lead them halfway competently. Trust doesn't much enter into it. :smallsmile:

Erth16
2014-08-07, 10:08 PM
Well, it's a warlordy situation. Your mighty kingdom only covers a couple of map hexes, but nobody else's kingdoms are much bigger. Your children don't even rate CR 1, and the lady with the dragon head looks like she could take on your entire castle as a more or less CR-appropriate encounter. Your military might try a coup once you're out of the scene, if nobody can lead them halfway competently. Trust doesn't much enter into it. :smallsmile:

In that situation it seems like a duchy would be one hex or so, and as such making her a duchess of one of the two non capital hexes would be a smart thing. The wealth, land, and status, although the wealth insignificant compared to her current wealth, would be still be a proper payment, in addition the king could see it as a wise choice because it would be making the dragon slayer a citizen of his kingdom, and he would then be able to request she help in war to expand or defend the kingdom, and his word actually have a bit of weight behind it.

I've been playing Crusader Kings 2 recently, and it made me really happy when the Pope granted me Jerusalem when I carried that crusade for him. Sure, it made me a bit more dependent on retaining good relations with him, but it increased my power and status considerably, so that is an option.

Alex12
2014-08-07, 11:37 PM
There's always the option of just...asking her what she wants as payment. As was said earlier, maybe she wants a husband who can administer her holdings once she's Queen. For that matter, even if it were a male hero, maybe he'd be uninterested in the princess for various reasons (and I can think of probably half a dozen offhand)
If none of the royal offspring are appropriate, then I believe half the kingdom is the generally-accepted rate. But, again, ask. You'd feel pretty stupid if it turned out the hero actually just wanted the strange magic thingy you'd stuck in the treasury because nobody knew what it did, and she didn't care about your piddly little kingdom because she knows full well she could take over whenever she likes if she really wanted to, but right now the stars are aligning to release Armageddus the Obliterator and only by reassembling the Lock of the Ancients in the Holy Temple can the magic holding him back be renewed for another thousand years.

Frozen_Feet
2014-08-08, 12:37 AM
Depends.

First question: is your monarchy patrilinear or matrilinear? Meaning, does the good stuff go down the father's side, or the mother's side?

If the former, you're either going to offer your son's hand, or you're going to offer to marry her yourself. It doesn't really matter how unlikeable you lads are, because this gesture essentially means she'll be adopted to a Royal Family and made into a Queen Consort in one fell swoop. (Yay for social mobility!) As long as she gets kids with you or your son (or at least maintains plausible deniability as to their origin), they'll have a spot in the order of inheritance. Now... favoring her kids over those of your first wife is a good way to stir up a succession crisis and a civil war, but it doesn't sound like you like them much in the first place. I believe the standard solution is to gently remove (read: assassinate) excess ladies and children from the castle premises.

If the latter... well now you're screwed. You might have some hope if she's already a Princess or Queen of some nation - in that case, marriage to your son might have some political significance. But most likely, she's an antisocial adventurer AKA a murderhobo AKA a commoner in stolen armor. In that case, your son is dead weight, and she likely knows it. He was going to be sent off to train as a knight or cleric and either waste away as a small-time baron somewhere or die in some futile war. Marrying him will not net her anything she couldn't gain herself.

But worse, not only is your son dead weight, so are you. You may have the power of decision, but you don't have useful choices. You can't marry her or throw out your first wife and kids without losing your legitimacy as a King. You can try to divert her attention by knighting her or granting her land, but if she's that powerful, she could just take them from you. I suppose the best you can hope is that she's a lesbian and will settle with murdering you and then marrying your wife and adopting your kids. :smalltongue:

Slipperychicken
2014-08-08, 12:46 AM
Well, you could take the femme fatale and adopt her into your royal family. Or give her one of your good-for-nothing accountant kids, so she can become a badass princess (or even a queen someday).

Also, don't hand your daughter over to any murderhobo who can gank a dragon. Offer a knighthood and a plot of land or something like that. This way, the hero has to swear loyalty to you to claim the reward, and isn't banging your daughter.

I think it's safest to say the hero will be "handsomely rewarded". That could give you some room to vet the guy: if he's scum, you hand him some cash, maybe some shiny baubles and be done with it. If he's pretty decent, you could knight him or let him chill out in your court. If he's loyal and has leadership skills, you can consider adding him to the royal family later on.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-08, 01:07 AM
Giving her your son seems like a win-win here. She gets to be royalty, and your good-for-nothing son gets whipped into shape by the toughest woman in the region.

JusticeZero
2014-08-08, 02:10 AM
Depends.

First question: is your monarchy patrilinear or matrilinear?Warlords, so "Whoever the last king vetted - though it's supposed to be a family operation. Alternately, whatever whomever is standing on the pile of dismembered bodies of anyone who cared to argue the point thinks". You'd like to avoid being one of the bodies being stood upon for the latter case. Without adventurers, the succession will probably resemble either a bloody coup by your general, or a bloody coup by a different murderhobo.

Esprit15
2014-08-08, 02:22 AM
Eh, some murderhobos don't like declaring war on a whole country. Just because they can take your stuff doesn't mean that the effort is worth it. I'd say status is a fairly good reward if the classic "hand of the maiden princess" won't work for some reason.

The Random NPC
2014-08-08, 08:30 AM
Depends.

First question: is your monarchy patrilinear or matrilinear? Meaning, does the good stuff go down the father's side, or the mother's side?

If the former, you're either going to offer your son's hand, or you're going to offer to marry her yourself. It doesn't really matter how unlikeable you lads are, because this gesture essentially means she'll be adopted to a Royal Family and made into a Queen Consort in one fell swoop. (Yay for social mobility!) As long as she gets kids with you or your son (or at least maintains plausible deniability as to their origin), they'll have a spot in the order of inheritance. Now... favoring her kids over those of your first wife is a good way to stir up a succession crisis and a civil war, but it doesn't sound like you like them much in the first place. I believe the standard solution is to gently remove (read: assassinate) excess ladies and children from the castle premises.

If the latter... well now you're screwed. You might have some hope if she's already a Princess or Queen of some nation - in that case, marriage to your son might have some political significance. But most likely, she's an antisocial adventurer AKA a murderhobo AKA a commoner in stolen armor. In that case, your son is dead weight, and she likely knows it. He was going to be sent off to train as a knight or cleric and either waste away as a small-time baron somewhere or die in some futile war. Marrying him will not net her anything she couldn't gain herself.

But worse, not only is your son dead weight, so are you. You may have the power of decision, but you don't have useful choices. You can't marry her or throw out your first wife and kids without losing your legitimacy as a King. You can try to divert her attention by knighting her or granting her land, but if she's that powerful, she could just take them from you. I suppose the best you can hope is that she's a lesbian and will settle with murdering you and then marrying your wife and adopting your kids. :smalltongue:

If it's matrilinear, why wouldn't the queen be making this decision?

kamahl222
2014-08-08, 08:58 AM
I offer her my daughter's hand in marriage and a girdle of Masculinity/Femininity so my daughter can produce heirs and the hero can still go off adventuring. ^^

Segev
2014-08-08, 09:10 AM
Yeah, the "standard hero reward" is three things, in theory:

Power/wealth/status
Assured automatic status for your kids
Beautiful/sexy wife (with whom you get to have sex)

Note that the most common subversion of this is the (sometimes truth-in-television) ugly princess.

Part of the theory includes the medieval assumption that the girl's personality, while not totally to be discounted, could be overridden by the fact that she's the submissive partner in the relationship and thus can be compelled to fit the "wife" mold however the hero desires.

There is the assumption, however, that there will also be romance and love. Because the elements that actually go into building a relationship are totally ignored in most "standard hero reward" stories. If they're nodded to, it's either because the hero wins his reward in part by actually personally rescuing, then escorting, the princess, and thus spends a fair bit of time with her. As any story where two people of complementary sexual preference are shoved together - particularly "alone together" - for a large portion thereof, it's assumed they'll fall in love (and the tale is written to accommodate this expectation). Or it's because the hero knew the princess from before and they were already in love, but couldn't act on it because she's destined for a political marriage (or marriage as a hero reward to the first hero to show up)...and that may even be what inspired the hero to BECOME a hero.



But the "my daughter's hand to the man who can defeat this dragon" style reward assumes she's trained to be a good wife to a man she hardly knows, hopes she's beautiful and sexy, and is mostly a promise of wealth and power and prestige.

When you invert the hero's gender, you can actually get away with the inversion of the reward's gender in most ways. If you're sticking with medieval assumptions, though, you have to acknowledge that a heroine of that power is not going to fit the "submissive partner" role nearly so well. Fortunately, princes, as much as princesses, ARE trained to expect to marry somebody for political reasons. They might or might not have more expectations of, well, wearing the tights in the relationship, but some of that is mitigated by the possibility that our heroine is going to go out adventuring.

The other issue you run into is one that is actually more of a modern conceit: men are considered the sexual aggressors and to "always want sex," while women are considered to be more picky. If a guy is off-put, in fiction, by marrying the princess, it's usually played for laughs with the "ugly princess" trope. It is actually somewhat expected that a female protagonist, told marriage to a stranger is a reward, to be a little off-put by the idea that she becomes sexual partners with a man she doesn't know. (In fact, if the princess is focused on in the standard scenario and she doesn't know the guy, she may well be shown resigning herself to this.)

Being a guy, myself, I only can run on what I've been told, but supposedly women are less "visual" than men and are attracted to different aspects of a man's personaltiy, social status/power/wealth, and looks than men are wrt women. I'm sure a handsome prince will be more pleasing (all else equal) than a plain or ugly one, but I have no idea how much more or less a woman theoretically values personality or wealth in her sexual partners. I do know that, in early Disney Princess films, the Prince was often as much a cardboard cutout as the Princess in a Standard Hero Reward scenario: handsome filler for a groom's suit. So presumably, if those are genuine fantasies about marriage that women and girls have, there's some element of "offer the heroine the prince's hand" as a reasonable option.




Specifically, in the scenario in the OP, I agree with the posters who've said "offer her your son's hand." He, like your daughter, likely was meant for political alliance anyway. And yes, a lazy accountant type might well suit a conquering warrior-woman as a consort. He can manage her wealth and conquests for her and stay out of her way.

Icewraith
2014-08-08, 02:09 PM
I offer her my daughter's hand in marriage and a girdle of Masculinity/Femininity so my daughter can produce heirs and the hero can still go off adventuring. ^^

A well prepared kingdom will have two of those on hand for the inevitable lesbian dragonslayer and good-for-nothing prince. The adventurer has the option of hanging around long enough to impregnate the now-princess and doesn't have to worry about taking nine months off to have a kid, the prince has nine months (plus breastfeeding?) to consider his (now her) life choices (although the mere existence of such a plan would be a pretty good motivation for princes to become good at dragonslaying), the kingdom gets an heir and some fresh genes for the gene pool and doesn't need to be split, the country gets a kickass general if another threat shows up, and the non-girdle option is still on the table if the adventurer wants kids and finds the prince and the political alliance acceptable.

The real problem starts when a dragon shows up and none of the royal children are of marriagable age. The (presumably married) ruler has to hope that a sibling from their generation is acceptable (maybe a cousin?), assassinate someone, hope the adventurer goes for a duchy and keeps the land within the kingdom, or save everyone some trouble and chug some poison. Even if there's not much of a chance, the ruler's probably more willing to take an army out against the dragon.

Edit: If the ruler has no heirs yet, no acceptable relatives, power passes through them and not the spouse, and the spouse would prefer any alternative to assassination the double-girdle thing is still on the table I suppose. The REAL trouble starts when a dragon magically reproduces a copy of its own head, shows up polymorphed under the guise of a lesbian dragonslayer, and convinces the king to go for the double-girdle option. Instead of half the kingdom and dealing with hordes of adventurers the dragon gets its half-dragon child as the legitimate heir of a kingdom and gets to seriously inconveniance a (politically) powerful mortal for nine months. If the kingdom murders the kid the dragon has an excuse to take out the whole kingdom anyways (or if LE might be able to prosecute the king for murder of a sentient being under the realm's own laws), or at the very least gets a nine month delay on dealing with adventurers and any adventurers that do show up are going to be in the difficult position of trying to prove they're not just the dragon (or some other dragon) trying to pull the same trick.

Bonus points if the dragon takes on the form of an actual well known lesbian dragonslayer currently on an expedition to another plane or otherwise preoccupied. Especially if the dragon had a beef with her anyways.

Alex12
2014-08-08, 02:42 PM
This all, of course, assumes that said lady adventurer is in fact actually looking for a husband. This may or may not be the case. If she's not, then offering her the hand of the prince in marriage might upset her, and upsetting people who kill dragons for a living is, while not the worst idea anyone's ever had (Hugging a Sphere of Annihilation and mooning Orcus are both worse, for example), it's still probably in the bottom 25%.

VoxRationis
2014-08-08, 02:49 PM
If it's matrilinear, why wouldn't the queen be making this decision?

Matrilinearity and matriarchy are not synonymous terms.
Also, the "requires a child of marriageable age" is not a concern. Betrothals could last for years and years. The prince could barely be out of his diapers by the time said dragon-slaying occurs, and it wouldn't matter to a medieval king.

Sartharina
2014-08-08, 02:54 PM
Depends.

First question: is your monarchy patrilinear or matrilinear? Meaning, does the good stuff go down the father's side, or the mother's side?

If the former, you're either going to offer your son's hand, or you're going to offer to marry her yourself. It doesn't really matter how unlikeable you lads are, because this gesture essentially means she'll be adopted to a Royal Family and made into a Queen Consort in one fell swoop. (Yay for social mobility!) As long as she gets kids with you or your son (or at least maintains plausible deniability as to their origin), they'll have a spot in the order of inheritance. Now... favoring her kids over those of your first wife is a good way to stir up a succession crisis and a civil war, but it doesn't sound like you like them much in the first place. I believe the standard solution is to gently remove (read: assassinate) excess ladies and children from the castle premises.

If the latter... well now you're screwed. You might have some hope if she's already a Princess or Queen of some nation - in that case, marriage to your son might have some political significance. But most likely, she's an antisocial adventurer AKA a murderhobo AKA a commoner in stolen armor. In that case, your son is dead weight, and she likely knows it. He was going to be sent off to train as a knight or cleric and either waste away as a small-time baron somewhere or die in some futile war. Marrying him will not net her anything she couldn't gain herself.

But worse, not only is your son dead weight, so are you. You may have the power of decision, but you don't have useful choices. You can't marry her or throw out your first wife and kids without losing your legitimacy as a King. You can try to divert her attention by knighting her or granting her land, but if she's that powerful, she could just take them from you. I suppose the best you can hope is that she's a lesbian and will settle with murdering you and then marrying your wife and adopting your kids. :smalltongue:Why would the king be concerned with marrying his son off to an Adventurer in a matrilinear inheritance scheme, but be just fine with marrying his daughter off to an adventurer in a Patrilinear inheritance scheme?

Sith_Happens
2014-08-08, 03:09 PM
Why would the king be concerned with marrying his son off to an Adventurer in a matrilinear inheritance scheme, but be just fine with marrying his daughter off to an adventurer in a Patrilinear inheritance scheme?

Good point. The "standard hero reward" does usually assume that marrying the princess puts the hero in line for the throne. Which... I don't think is automatically the case in a patrilineal kingdom, though someone else probably knows better than me.

It should also be noted that matrilineal vs. patrilineal is not an either-or. Gender-blind primogeniture is also a thing.

Icewraith
2014-08-08, 03:13 PM
Why would the king be concerned with marrying his son off to an Adventurer in a matrilinear inheritance scheme, but be just fine with marrying his daughter off to an adventurer in a Patrilinear inheritance scheme?

I don't think he covered that actually, he's addressing the "only sons" cases. A truly matrilinear inheritance scheme and a truly patrilinear inheritance scheme both have the same issues if the ruler produces no daughters or sons, respectively. i.e. The adventurer that marries into such a situation with the design of eventually becoming the ruler is better off just taking over the throne by force and establishing a new dynasty.

In a matrilinear inheritance scheme, if the king/queen produce any female heirs, the adventurer/son pair get skipped in the line of succession if I understand things right (alternatively the line passes to the matron's closest female relative). In a patrilinear scheme, a daughter/adventurer pair would be skipped if the royal couple produces a male heir.

I think we're considering a patrilinear inheritance scheme or a birth order inheritance scheme since in the example the king is calling the shots.

Mr Beer
2014-08-08, 03:24 PM
Then some adventurers go out into the woods to kill the dragon. You figure "yeah, okay, my daughter for defeating the dragon, since let's face it, if they get mad anyone who can take down THAT thing can probably solo my castle anyways. This way I at least get to retire with my wife first, and it more or less stays in the family".
Then some lady in fancy armor that's probably worth more than every piece of siege available to you by itself comes wandering back carrying a dragons head in a cart and a rune covered glowing sword thing by her side, and you realize she probably isn't going to be interested in your lazy kid son, and most likely the princess won't be that appealing either..

They all should have discussed the reward pre-dragonkill. If the king's intention was to offer marriage into his royal family, I don't see how this changes anything. Royal marriages are not about finding the love of one's life, they are about immense power and prestige.

If for someone reason Lady Dragonslayer declines the offer, well its time to talk. The king is do doubt a seasoned diplomat, even if he's no longer up to personal dragonkilling he can still dicker with the best of them. I'm sure they can come to a mutually beneficial agreement.

The scenario is presented with the implication 'well she doesn't want your crappy offer and she's super dangerous!". But there is nothing to indicate why this should be the case. The brave hero has undertaken an heroic task and the king can present the traditional reward. So where's the problem?

Icewraith
2014-08-08, 03:50 PM
They all should have discussed the reward pre-dragonkill. If the king's intention was to offer marriage into his royal family, I don't see how this changes anything. Royal marriages are not about finding the love of one's life, they are about immense power and prestige.

If for someone reason Lady Dragonslayer declines the offer, well its time to talk. The king is do doubt a seasoned diplomat, even if he's no longer up to personal dragonkilling he can still dicker with the best of them. I'm sure they can come to a mutually beneficial agreement.

The scenario is presented with the implication 'well she doesn't want your crappy offer and she's super dangerous!". But there is nothing to indicate why this should be the case. The brave hero has undertaken an heroic task and the king can present the traditional reward. So where's the problem?

No, because the point of offering your daughter's hand in marriage or half your kingdom for dragonslaying is that word gets out, the idea is to motivate sufficiently skilled people to handle your dragon problem, and it's traditional. I think we're dealing more with a kingdom where this is the established rate and the situation comes up, not calling the validity of the situation into quesiton.

Segev
2014-08-08, 04:09 PM
I don't think the lady dragonslayer is any more likely to be offended, if she doesn't want to get married, by the offer of the prince's hand, than is the male dragonslayer when offered the princess's hand (if he doesn't want to get married). Given the traditional nature of the offer, it would likely be refused as politely as possible, rather than any sort of cause for offense.

Slipperychicken
2014-08-08, 05:10 PM
I don't think the lady dragonslayer is any more likely to be offended, if she doesn't want to get married, by the offer of the prince's hand, than is the male dragonslayer when offered the princess's hand (if he doesn't want to get married). Given the traditional nature of the offer, it would likely be refused as politely as possible, rather than any sort of cause for offense.

Depends. The hero's immature 12 year old player might declare that his PC attempts to kill the king on the spot for not offering any good loot.

Angelalex242
2014-08-08, 06:59 PM
If the player is 12, we're probably not offering the hero a spouse. Offering a spouse is for those of at least high school age. Ya know, old enough to ask 'well, is she hot?'

Or 'is he a stud?' in this case.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-08, 07:25 PM
If the player is 12, we're probably not offering the hero a spouse. Offering a spouse is for those of at least high school age. Ya know, old enough to ask 'well, is she hot?'

Or 'is he a stud?' in this case.

"Marrying the prince(ss)" is a fantasy that transcends age.

Mr Beer
2014-08-08, 11:11 PM
No, because the point of offering your daughter's hand in marriage or half your kingdom for dragonslaying is that word gets out, the idea is to motivate sufficiently skilled people to handle your dragon problem, and it's traditional. I think we're dealing more with a kingdom where this is the established rate and the situation comes up, not calling the validity of the situation into quesiton.

Then Lady Dragonslayer knows the going rate and is presumably happy with the bargain, making the implied problem even less likely.

The Random NPC
2014-08-09, 12:35 AM
Matrilinearity and matriarchy are not synonymous terms.
Also, the "requires a child of marriageable age" is not a concern. Betrothals could last for years and years. The prince could barely be out of his diapers by the time said dragon-slaying occurs, and it wouldn't matter to a medieval king.

Alright, I don't really know the difference between the two then. Would you mind explaining it?

Hyena
2014-08-09, 01:03 AM
Matriarchy is how society works, matrilinearity is how inheritance works.

On topic, I second the option "Offer the prince anyway". It's how things are traditionally done.

Angelalex242
2014-08-09, 01:13 AM
King:Here's my son. All yours. While you're at it, could you make a man out of him? I've been trying for the last 23 yeas and got nowhere. But I have confidence you can do better!

Lady Dragonslayer: Make a man out of...HIM? The CR of that encounter's a whole lot higher then the Dragon was. I could get 10 more dragons killed before I was done making a man out of HIM.

King: Well, I guess it's a worthy challenge then! Think of all the Roleplay XP you'll get!

The Random NPC
2014-08-09, 02:07 AM
Matriarchy is how society works, matrilinearity is how inheritance works.

On topic, I second the option "Offer the prince anyway". It's how things are traditionally done.

I still don't quite understand, in a matrilinear patriarchy, what does the first born prince get? Just the title of king and the rest gets divided up to the sisters?
EDIT: So based on random wiki articles and Yahoo answers, matrilinear simply means you trace your lineage from your mothers, while a matriarchy means inheritance is passed on from the mother to (generally) the daughter. So in a matrilinear patriarchy, the first born prince would become the king as everyone understands it (land, title, inheritance, etc.), but would get his last name (and be considered part of the house of) his mother. So it seems matrilinearity or patrilinearity doesn't much affect the king's decision. Is that about right?

Hyena
2014-08-09, 02:26 AM
Okay, here's the deal.

In monarchies, there are three types of gender succession laws - agnatic (favours males), enatic (favours females) and cognatic (doesn't care). With agnatic succession, titles pass to the oldest son - unless there are no sons to inherit, in which case a daughter can inherit. Enatic is the opposite - the oldest daughter inherits, unless none are eligible (for example, they don't exist, or the only daughter is a bastard, or she took the vows). With cognatic, the firstborn inherits the titles, no matter the gender.
What the other children get, depends - they might take lesser parts of land and become the vassals of the firsborn, they might take lesser parts of land and become independent or they might get nothing except some gold and a fancy title.
Or maybe screw the gender laws - maybe, the kindgom's monarchy is elective, and nobles (with the ruler getting a say) decide who becomes the heir.

The point is, it's perfectly possible for a man to rule with matrilinear succession. His wife will most likely be a princess from foreign kindgom - and therefore, she has no mandate to rule this kingdom and has no say in political matters. Opposite is true - if the queen rules, her husband's kingly authority is pretty much a joke.

Dhavaer
2014-08-09, 02:26 AM
I still don't quite understand, in a matrilinear patriarchy, what does the first born prince get? Just the title of king and the rest gets divided up to the sisters?

Everything. Matrilinearity isn't about who gets what, but who they get it from: the mother. So the first born prince inherits from his mother the queen, but can't pass it down to his children. Instead, it would go to his next eldest sibling. If the next eldest sibling is a sister, the next in line would be her children, else it would go on to the next sibling from him.

Hyena
2014-08-09, 02:28 AM
...or I might have posted a rant about the wrong subject after misunderstanding the topic of discussion. It happens.

The Random NPC
2014-08-09, 02:40 AM
Ok, I think I get it now, and I think I misunderstood Frozen_Feet's question. Based on my current understanding, the reason the king is screwed in a matrilinear monarchy is that there's a good chance that female adventure can't expect to receive much, unless the son is an only child. Even then there could be cousins the would inherit over her, and so there is more incentive for the adventure to simply overthrow the current monarchy.

Rion
2014-08-09, 04:33 AM
Ok, I think I get it now, and I think I misunderstood Frozen_Feet's question. Based on my current understanding, the reason the king is screwed in a matrilinear monarchy is that there's a good chance that female adventure can't expect to receive much, unless the son is an only child. Even then there could be cousins the would inherit over her, and so there is more incentive for the adventure to simply overthrow the current monarchy.
On the other hand, that would make the "Adoption option" far more attractive for the adventurer, and if the king doesn't care too much for leaving the kingdom in the hands of incompetent children, it would also be a more attractive option for him.

Hyena
2014-08-09, 07:46 AM
Is adoption even a thing? I mean, I guess he could knight her or make her into countess (duchess, baroness, whatever), but I don't think he is just able to invite random people into his family. Royal blood is an important thing.

Jay R
2014-08-09, 08:50 AM
Then some lady in fancy armor that's probably worth more than every piece of siege available to you by itself comes wandering back carrying a dragons head in a cart and a rune covered glowing sword thing by her side, and you realize she probably isn't going to be interested in your lazy kid son, and most likely the princess won't be that appealing either.

As long as you're bringing modern ideas into a medieval climate to watch them clash, why are you assuming that the princess won't be that appealing?


Also, don't hand your daughter over to any murderhobo who can gank a dragon. Offer a knighthood and a plot of land or something like that. This way, the hero has to swear loyalty to you to claim the reward, and isn't banging your daughter.

You are trying to manipulate a medieval idea without its medieval purposes. Of course the king wants to marry his daughter to the person who can best protect the realm. All marriages are intended to preserve or extend the family holdings. If the hero is the one person who can protect the realm, then he's the best possible person to ally the royal family to with a marriage.


Why would the king be concerned with marrying his son off to an Adventurer in a matrilinear inheritance scheme, but be just fine with marrying his daughter off to an adventurer in a Patrilinear inheritance scheme?

Because the goal of an inheritance scheme is to produce heirs, to continue the family line. For that purpose, the female needs to stay at home safe for months at a time. (I'm not defending the medieval approach here; I'm merely citing it.) At best, she would have to become a part-time adventurer.

Frozen_Feet
2014-08-09, 10:08 AM
If it's matrilinear, why wouldn't the queen be making this decision?

As noted, inheritance by female line is not the same as rule by (a) female(s). The assumption here is that because the King is described as being the one with the decision, he is the Reigning King for whatever reasons. This can imply a patriarchy, but it could imply a hundred other things too. By contrast, the line of succession could be anything.


Why would the king be concerned with marrying his son off to an Adventurer in a matrilinear inheritance scheme, but be just fine with marrying his daughter off to an adventurer in a Patrilinear inheritance scheme?

The reason why patrilinear successions are fine with marrying off excess daughters, and matrilinear successions are fine with marrying off excess sons, is because those excess children are of little value. Nothing of import is usually passed down to them. Basically, in a patrilinear succession, a daughter marrying a commoner becomes a commoner, and can be ignored for purposes of inheritance. In a matrilinear succession, a son marrying a commoner becomes one etc.

In a matrilinear succession, there's a Problem: you are trying to reward a woman. If your son was politically important or otherwise able by his own right, instead of just due to being your son, then it might work, but he's practically valueless in this scenario. Just marrying your son doesn't give the woman anything. You also can't "keep things in the family" because, barring adoption, the hero woman is obviously not of your family, instead representing a completely different lineage. So makinger her either the Reigning Queen or Queen Consort would mean basically ditching one dynasty and replacing it with a new one. By contrast, in a patrilinear succession marrying her (to you or your son) would be taking her to your family and making her part of your dynasty.

In general, the question of partilinearity versus matrilinearity poses an interesting question about the standard hero reward. The reward can work in either contexts, but the implications are wildly different.

In a patrilinear succession, hand of a Princess would be a token gesture of reward. It's basically "here's a potential wife for you" and little more. It works if you assume the heroic man is after sex or wants children of his own... and eventually, every man does, because in patrilinear succession you need children to pass down your wealth and status, and you need women to have them. This would be the default in a classic Oppressive Patriarchy (tm) where women are considered "property".

In a matrilinear succession, the Princess is a valuable asset, and you don't want to marry her off to just any dude. But what do you know - a heroic man just slew a dragon and proved to be the most badass guy in the neighbourhood! Clearly, he's Prince or King material, wouldn't you say? In a matrilinear succession, the social status or origin of a man don't matter much, but his abilities do. The Heroic Quest (tm) and all assorted hoops are selection pressures to find the best possible spouse for the Princess, and consequently the best possible continuer of your family line.

As a sidenote: why, in many myths and tales, the heroic farmboy is secretly long lost heir of the Kingdom? Because if he isn't, he has no legitimacy for the throne in a patrilinear succession. If a commoner would really claim the throne and marry a Princess, he would be considered an usurper and an illegitimate ruler.

If the heroic farmboy or other murderhobo isn't secretly an heir to anything, and it's the act of marrying the Princess that grants him half the Kingdom, then that's a sign of matrilinear succession, or at least a cognatic one (assuming the Princess is firstborn child of the Royal Family).

Both models do exist in myth and folklore. Chivalry tended to be extremely gynocentric and a lot of stories center around the Princess selecting the rightful ruler by being so in luuuv with his noble soul. And stuff.

Mark Hall
2014-08-09, 10:20 AM
King:Here's my son. All yours. While you're at it, could you make a man out of him? I've been trying for the last 23 yeas and got nowhere. But I have confidence you can do better!

Lady Dragonslayer: Make a man out of...HIM? The CR of that encounter's a whole lot higher then the Dragon was. I could get 10 more dragons killed before I was done making a man out of HIM.

King: Well, I guess it's a worthy challenge then! Think of all the Roleplay XP you'll get!

Let's get down to business
To improve your son!
Why's he such a wastrel
What have you done?
He's the saddest prince I've ever met
But you can bet before we're through
Mister, I'll make a him a man
for you!

Frozen_Feet
2014-08-09, 10:58 AM
Speaking of ugly Princesses, they have the much of the same issues as your waste-of-space son has. Namely... why should the Big Damn Hero settle for her, when he probably has half the country's ladies swooning for him? In any case where the only thing your offspring has going for them is "s/he technically falls within your sexual preferences", your bargaining chips are not very good. Even if the marriage is accepted (because it has something else riding on it, probably), your child is likely to get neglected in favor of some more attractive lover.

JusticeZero
2014-08-09, 11:13 AM
In the described case, the major issue is that in a lot of earlier civilizations that are good models for campaigns, an issue that comes up is "You can have the throne.... if you can keep it." Ligitimacy will include a significant helping of proving the ability to smack the heck out of the other contenders powerbase if they get uppity. This isn't the only thing that matters, but it's a real concern. gender and birth order must be secondary to the goal of making sure that the kingdom won't become a pile of rubble shortly after the coronation. Tradition is open to changing and reinterpretation to fit whatever situation arises, something that people forget. And large swathes of history did not feature the more modern layers of middle management nobility to placate.

Ettina
2014-08-09, 12:04 PM
Good point. The "standard hero reward" does usually assume that marrying the princess puts the hero in line for the throne. Which... I don't think is automatically the case in a patrilineal kingdom, though someone else probably knows better than me.

I thought in the usual trope the king had no sons. Which means his son-in-law would get the throne, because his daughter is his only heir and married women are expected to be ruled by their husbands.

If he did have sons, his son-in-law wouldn't get the kingdom, but he would have close ties with the kingdom and a reasonable expectation that said kingdom would ally with him and offer him aid if he needed it.

The usual situation is the son-in-law ruling his own country (or at least a duchy or something), and the marriage would mean the two countries are close allies and declaring war on one means declaring war on the other. If the son-in-law was a duke or something rather than a king, he might have to deal with divided loyalties (his own king vs his wife's father) but most of the time that wouldn't come up, and if it did he'd side with whoever was stronger. (Incidentally, there were also some dukes who swore fealty to two different kings, which put them in a similar situation.) Even though it meant divided loyalties, a king would usually be happy to have their duke marrying a princess, because her father (and later her brother) would be expected to aid their kingdom in order to aid the duke.

Plus, if something goes wrong and all the sons die without heirs, the son-in-law could end up on the throne. Or his sons might.

Pilum
2014-08-09, 12:27 PM
Speaking of ugly Princesses, they have the much of the same issues as your waste-of-space son has. Namely... why should the Big Damn Hero settle for her, when he probably has half the country's ladies swooning for him?

Because, to quote Python, Princess Prize has huuuuge.... tracts of land?

Traditionally the legends offering this have her as the kings only child so it's (almost) instant elevation to the throne. And even if there's a son ahead of her in the succession, the dowry she's coming with will be phenomenal - especially if the king is trying to get a mighty warrior on board.

Still applies with the heroine/son approach. Yes, she'll be expected to spit out an heir, but she'll be the one wearing the trousers and everyone will know it. And it's no more trail rations, no more bedrolls, no more "random hero". You're nobility now. You're a somebody. You win.

Hand_of_Vecna
2014-08-09, 12:44 PM
I thought in the usual trope the king had no sons. Which means his son-in-law would get the throne, because his daughter is his only heir and married women are expected to be ruled by their husbands.

If he did have sons, his son-in-law wouldn't get the kingdom, but he would have close ties with the kingdom and a reasonable expectation that said kingdom would ally with him and offer him aid if he needed it.

That is in fact the usual trope.

I'd actually think that in a world that follows the conventions of D&D that the elder or favored gender heir would probably abdicate in favor of the sibling with the adventurer SO, just to avoid all the sundry challenges and assasination plots. Also, the will of the people has to come into it at some point. If we fast forward ten years and every few months an issue is brought to the king that he then needs to run to his sister-in-law to solve, there won't be much faith in him for very long. Soon people will start bringing their concerns directly to her. . .

tomandtish
2014-08-09, 12:55 PM
So you're the King of a small warlordy kingdom, and you have trouble with a dragon or whatever that your army just isn't up to dealing with. Years ago, you would have grabbed your friends and gone to battle, but these days, your joints creak, you can barely swing your mighty greatsword anymore, and you just aren't feeling all that powerful. Your kids? Freaking lazy accountants who barely know which end of the sword is the stabby one.. They couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.
Then some adventurers go out into the woods to kill the dragon. You figure "yeah, okay, my daughter for defeating the dragon, since let's face it, if they get mad anyone who can take down THAT thing can probably solo my castle anyways. This way I at least get to retire with my wife first, and it more or less stays in the family".
Then some lady in fancy armor that's probably worth more than every piece of siege available to you by itself comes wandering back carrying a dragons head in a cart and a rune covered glowing sword thing by her side, and you realize she probably isn't going to be interested in your lazy kid son, and most likely the princess won't be that appealing either..

What to do at this stage?

You could take an example from Lawrence Watt-Evans' novel "With a Single Spell". Our hero participates in slaying a dragon and with the hand of one of several princesses as part of a reward. Then discovers that the reward is all or nothing. He HAS to take the hand of the princess if he wants any part of the reward. And begins to realize just what sort of trouble he's in.

So maybe change things just enough that the King is trying to get rid of this daughter in a way that doesn't make him look like a kin slayer. "The hero who slays the Dragon get 10,000 gp and the hand of my daughter". "Oh no. If you want the 10,000 gp, you have to take my daughter as well. That's why it says AND, not OR". "Why no, I don't believe hero is defined as male anywhere in our kingdom's laws, and it does say the Princess can marry any hero who performs a suitable deed". (Stealing this bit from Xanth where it was pointed out at one time that "King" was never specifically defined as male, so you had King Iris and King Irene). "Failing to accept your King's gratitude could be construed as an insult. You don't want to commit lese majeste, do you?"

Sith_Happens
2014-08-09, 08:51 PM
Even if the marriage is accepted (because it has something else riding on it, probably), your child is likely to get neglected in favor of some more attractive lover.

From what I understand, this outcome was historically considered pretty commonplace.

Angelalex242
2014-08-09, 09:21 PM
Let's get down to business
To improve your son!
Why's he such a wastrel
What have you done?
He's the saddest prince I've ever met
But you can bet before we're through
Mister, I'll make a him a man
for you!

LOOOOOOOL!

Okay, that RP needs to happen now. Badass chick, wimpy dude...and she actually SUCCEEDS at making a man out of him!

VoxRationis
2014-08-09, 09:25 PM
Even if the marriage is accepted (because it has something else riding on it, probably), your child is likely to get neglected in favor of some more attractive lover.

Courtesans exist for precisely this purpose. Frankly, it doesn't matter, so long as the couple produces at least one child whose bloodline is certain, or at least certain enough that no one will make a fuss over it.

Metahuman1
2014-08-09, 09:40 PM
If this was me, I'd say "Well then, I have three rewards to offer, of which you may pick one, and they are as follows.

You may choose one of my Son's to Marry, and be named Heir to my throne with all that entails upon my demise not at your hand, magically assured of course.

Or.

You may choose one of my Daughter's to Marry, and be named Heir to my throne with all that Entails upon my demise not at your hand, magically assured of course.

Or.

You may choose to have me publicly adopt you into my family and name you Heir to my throne with all that entails and in the mean time be Princess of the Realm with all that Entails until my demise, not at your hand, magically assured of course.

Take your pick."

Angelalex242
2014-08-09, 09:45 PM
Oh no no no. Having been given the option to make a man out of the son, that RP is too funny, it cannot be turned down.

Chd
2014-08-10, 04:58 AM
Speaking of ugly Princesses, they have the much of the same issues as your waste-of-space son has. Namely... why should the Big Damn Hero settle for her, when he probably has half the country's ladies swooning for him? In any case where the only thing your offspring has going for them is "s/he technically falls within your sexual preferences", your bargaining chips are not very good. Even if the marriage is accepted (because it has something else riding on it, probably), your child is likely to get neglected in favor of some more attractive lover.

Isn't that why they have Cosmetic Biomancers (Wizards)?

In a campaign a few years ago, an Ugly (8 years old) Princess' hand was offered to my (dark/anti-) Paladin. He accepted on the proviso that the Princess would go 'under the wand', (the king accepted, as the effects are hereditary, and by aging the princess magically means she can be married, as opposed to a simple Glamor spell). He also Impressed on the king that if any of his other children stood in the way of him claiming the throne, they would be slain and raised as a new member of his army.

Here's the kicker; on the honeymoon, the Paladin showed the princess his/her secret, by removing the Ring of Change; reverting to her birth (female) form after impregnating her.

The Princess is still mentally a child, but s/he (the dark paladin) had his/her way with her, got her pregnant, and then rode out after the month-long honeymoon to proceed to conquer the surrounding Fief/Kingdoms after raising every dead man, woman, and child as part of his "Immortal Legion".

Sith_Happens
2014-08-10, 07:11 AM
In a campaign a few years ago, the hand of an Ugly (8 years old) Princess' hand was offered to my (dark/anti-)Paladin. He accepted on the proviso that the Princess would go 'under the wand', (the king accepted, as the effects are hereditary, and by aging the princess magically means she can be married, as opposed to a simple Glamor spell). He also Impressed on the king that if any of his other children stood in the way of him claiming the throne, they would be slain and raised as a new member of his army.

Here's the kicker; on the honeymoon, the Paladin showed the princess his/her secret, by removing the Ring of Change; reverting to her birth (female) form after impregnating her.

This makes me incredibly uncomfortable in multiple ways, so congratulations on playing a convincing evil character.:smalleek:

Mark Hall
2014-08-10, 09:06 AM
LOOOOOOOL!

Okay, that RP needs to happen now. Badass chick, wimpy dude...and she actually SUCCEEDS at making a man out of him!

...I'l just leave this here...

http://retconpunchdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/sonja-is-everybodys-type.jpg

From Gail Simone's Red Sonja

comicshorse
2014-08-11, 09:00 AM
Even if the marriage is accepted (because it has something else riding on it, probably), your child is likely to get neglected in favor of some more attractive lover.

To quote from Roger Zelazny's 'The George Business'

"Human, I bear your kind no special fondness particularly the armored variety with lances so I don't know why I'm telling you this... Well, I do know actually... But never mind. I could manage it, all right. But if you win the hand of the maid, do you know what's going to happen? The novelty of your deed will wear off after a time and you know there will be no encore. Give her a year, I'd say, and you'll catch her fooling around with one of those brawny barbarians she finds so attractive. Then you must either fight him and be slaughtered or wear horns, as they say."
George laughed.
"It's nothing to me how she spends her free time. I've a girlfriend in town myself."
Dart's eyes widened.
"I'm afraid I don't understand..."
"She's the old baron's only offspring, and he's on his last legs. Why else do you think an uncomely wench like that would have six suitors? Why else would I gamble my life's savings to win her?"
"I see," said Dart. "Yes I can understand greed."

Segev
2014-08-11, 10:23 AM
The reason the prize in the Standard Hero Reward is often "My daughter's hand and half my kingdom" is precisely because you need both royal blood (which the princess provides to any offspring) and "legitimacy" as a ruler (which, when granted half the kingdom by the king, you are now a duke, and thus CAN inherit the throne in your wife's name, if needs be). It legitimizes you by making you nobility and leaving your son as the sole male heir to the dynasty.

In a situation where there is a prince who is already heir apparent, and it is still a male hero marrying a princess, the princess comes with a dowry (this was, in fact, often as much so that a wealthy family's daughter would be able to continue to live in wealth, more than to sell her to the best match...though the latter absolutely mattered). More than the dowry, however, she comes with "palace privileges." The newly-made prince-by-marriage is likely to move into a royal suite suitable to the Princess's standing, and to be treated like a son-in-law. If he is not wealthy in his own right, he will be taken care of.

A modern equivalent would have the man marrying the corporate mogul's daughter get a really nice job with the company, which pays well and has lots of corporate perks. Probably something in his field, whatever that field was that made him worth this political marriage.

As an adventurer, he'd basically become the kingdom's special forces unit. He's slain one dragon; if another shows up, the King doesn't need to look for a hero...he's got one sitting at his dinner table.

This remains true when the old king retires (or dies) and the heir apparent inherits. Sure, Adventurer Boy may not be taking the throne, but he remains a prince-by-marriage, and hopefully has a good relationship with his brother-in-law. It doesn't undermine the king when he has to run to his brother-in-law for help; he IS NOT running to his brother-in-law. He's being the king and dispatching his most powerful warrior to solve the problem.



All of these remain possible with the heroine instead of a hero, provided there's a prince she can wed. Whether she becomes a ruling queen or "merely" the King's badass wife (rather than the king's badass brother-in-law) who gets dispatched to handle problems, it remains the same. Though additionally, if she marries the heir, she's Queen, which has her ruling if she and her husband agree. Spouses shared regal authority if they wanted to. Nobody gainsays the Queen when she is known to have the full support of her husband the King. Even less so if she just took down the last noble house to try to undermine the throne...and she did it single-handedly.

And if she's marrying a non-heir prince, she still is the badass sister-in-law, and she's going to be kept close and well, as long as that can be worked out.

(It's noteworthy that the classic tales all assume the hero(ine) is a noble and just individual who gets along with good people because (s)he's a good person. Adding the possibility of an ignoble "hero(ine)" complicates matters no matter the sexes involved.)

Eric Tolle
2014-08-11, 01:11 PM
I'd say that if the adventurer is able to slay the Dragon when the king is not, the decision is no longer in the king's hands; it's what reward SHE chooses to take.

After all, one of the basic tenets of feudalism is that if you can't defend your land, it's not really yours.

Segev
2014-08-11, 01:15 PM
I'd say that if the adventurer is able to slay the Dragon when the king is not, the decision is no longer in the king's hands; it's what reward SHE chooses to take.Quite possible, if she's not noble (in the moral sense). It is noteworthy that the standard tale assumes the nobility of the hero(ine).


After all, one of the basic tenets of capitalism is that if you can't defend your land, it's not really yours.That's not capitalism. That's just reality: if you can't defend (by your own power or by reliance on the collective power of law enforcement officials or by reliance on the power of the tribe/gang/whatever to which you belong) your stuff, somebody who can take it from you and wants to do so will do so.

But again, that's not capitalism. Capitalism absolutely respects property rights as important. It's based on the idea that what you have produced, or obtained through willing exchange with others, is yours to do with (more or less; we're not getting into nuances here) as you please. That absolutely precludes taking things by force from those who do not wish to give them to you, and assumes that something - law, morals, ethics, something - keeps others from doing the same to you.

Eric Tolle
2014-08-11, 02:03 PM
Quite possible, if she's not noble (in the moral sense). It is noteworthy that the standard tale assumes the nobility of the hero(ine).

Nobility of course can be acquired. On real life there's enough cases of commoners becoming ennobled, even into high tasks, that our adventurer need not start out noble. Of course in real life quite a few adventurers have had noble backgrounds.


That's not capitalism.

You're right, it's not. I meant to say Feudalism, but Swype, my nemesis, substituted "Capitalism". Because it's an eVil program and it hates me.

Of course in a feudal system, a king may not have land to give. If he's not am absolute monarch, most of the land would be bound up as the property of counts, basis, manoral lords, landed knights, and the like. They will likely be unhappy at their lens being given top someone else. In fact, this might even be a situation where rule is not hereditary, but passed on based on a vote of the nobles. In which case, becoming the heir of the king may not mean as much. In fact, elected ridership could be an explanation for lazy children of the king- "We don't have to have it if we don't want it".

But then again, if the collected nobility of the kingdom can't handle a dragon and our adventurer can, then they are probably in a weak position vis a vis any claim she makes.


(Note: up there? Swype wrote "vertical" instead of "feudal", and I only caught it at the last minute. That's even besides "manual lords", "Laumer knights", and Adventist". Swype is an evil, evil program.

Segev
2014-08-11, 02:23 PM
Nobility of course can be acquired. On real life there's enough cases of commoners becoming ennobled, even into high tasks, that our adventurer need not start out noble. Of course in real life quite a few adventurers have had noble backgrounds.The part you quoted me was very specifically using "noble" in the "a good and noble person" sense, not in the "ruling class" sense, for the record. I agree with your point, but it's talking past what you quoted me as saying. ^^;




You're right, it's not. I meant to say Feudalism, but Swype, my nemesis, substituted "Capitalism". Because it's an eVil program and it hates me.Ah, condolences. I actually turned off autocorrect on my phone because it kept doing things like that.


Of course in a feudal system, a king may not have land to give. If he's not am absolute monarch, most of the land would be bound up as the property of counts, basis, manoral lords, landed knights, and the like. They will likely be unhappy at their lens being given top someone else.Actually...

In textbook feudalism, the King literally owns all the land in the kingdom (at least on paper). His vassal-lords rent it from him in return for their taxes and the promise that they will bring their armies to his side should he call for them. This first level of vassal then rents out parts of their land to vassals of their own, forming a chain on down until the landed knight owns the land and the serfs tied to it. It's only at that bottom level that it stops being "person using land renting it," because they found they couldn't entice the serfs to stay and pay rent, so they told them they were not ALLOWED to leave.

In practice, nobility had possession of their immediate lands, and more direct connection to those who rented from them than did the king (or those who rented from their own vassals). Thus, local lords COULD command more loyalty than their lieges, and could use the fact that they were in possession of the land and goods to ignore the legal rights of their liege to the land, if they chose. This is how rebellions occurred.

But by the legal codes, the King owned it all. Everybody else was renting. IF the King has the loyalty of a personal army, or the loyalty of enough of his other Dukes, to enforce his claims to a wayward Duke's territory, he could remove a Duke by law and use that force of arms to make sure said Duke didn't ignore him.

It's also possible for a King very good at PR to get the loyalty of the lower-level vassals more strongly than they have it to their immediate lieges, such that if the King orders their immediate liege removed, they'll happily turn on said liege who is no longer legally in charge and accept whoever the King puts into place.


All of this is a long way around to saying that a King could assign his lands to whomever he wanted, in theory, and was bounded only by realpolitick in terms of making sure he didn't anger any of his nobles who had the will and power to say, "Nope, you can't kick me off this land; it's mine and I am ignoring that it's technically yours."

If he's putting Lady Dragonslayer in charge of Duke Dutiful and Duke Delinquent's territory, making her a Grand Duchess as well as Princess (by marriage to his son), he's relying on Dukes Dutiful, Delightful, and Daring being willing to bring armies to his call if Duke Delinquent tries to balk at answering to the new Grand Duchess. Well, that, and the fact that if Delinquent refuses, the King just tells Grand Duchess Dragonslayer that Delinquent is hers to deal with as she chooses. I wonder if Delinquent's army could have taken on a dragon, and how it'd fare against the dragonslayer?


But then again, if the collected nobility of the kingdom can't handle a dragon and our adventurer can, then they are probably in a weak position vis a vis any claim she makes.Yep, realpolitick lining up nicely with theoretical feudalism, if the King's letting her handle any wayward vassals he assigns to her.

JusticeZero
2014-08-11, 05:10 PM
True! But I specifically had specified pre-Feudal. As in, you can more or less be a King, a soldier, or a peasant, and that's pretty much it.

Angelalex242
2014-08-11, 05:31 PM
...You forgot a 4th class.

King, soldier, priest, peasant, adventurer, murderhobo.

And a 5th class.

Anyways, the existence of clerics and paladins means there must be a priest caste. Paladins also occupy the Knight caste in any setting where Knights exist.

Wizards occupy their own caste. When you're busy telling reality to sit down and shut up, you get a caste of your own.

JusticeZero
2014-08-11, 07:23 PM
Nonetheless, if you have a castle of some sort and the ability to smack people for getting too close to it or your peasants that bring you lunch, you're a King. :smallsmile:
There's no arguing about genetics with your middle managers. If they are big enough to have peasants serving them, they are Kings of Thatlandovertheria. And are likely to send raiding parties if you put your hippie pacifist kid on the throne.

Angelalex242
2014-08-11, 08:31 PM
Unless the hippie pacifist kid is a druid. Then said raiding parties are likely to be eaten by local wildlife. :P

Slipperychicken
2014-08-11, 09:54 PM
True! But I specifically had specified pre-Feudal. As in, you can more or less be a King, a soldier, or a peasant, and that's pretty much it.

Let's not forget the lesser nobles, courtiers, scholars, and clergymen. Those were typically a step above peasants, each holding varying degrees of 'soft power' in society.

AMFV
2014-08-11, 10:14 PM
True! But I specifically had specified pre-Feudal. As in, you can more or less be a King, a soldier, or a peasant, and that's pretty much it.

Pre-Feudal societies were vastly more diverse than that. Also in Pre-Feudal societies birthlines and nobility weren't as important, since there was no idealized divine rite of rule (well in Egypt there was, but they had a whole sister thing going on). The tightly controlled bloodlines were mostly a product of the integration between religion and the nobility at that time.

For example look at the bloodlines of the Roman or Byzantine empires... they were lucky to get a line that went on for more than five or six rulers. The problem is that even a dragonslaying lady is just one lady. She can't rule by force, because while she might be able to use her bread roll to penetrate the breadroll shaped hole in the dragon's armor, she isn't liable to be able to remain awake indefinitely. And if she makes too much of a fuss getting killed in her sleep or poisoned is very likely.

The other reason for the noble bloodline in fairy stories has to do with the industrial revolution and their attempts to legitimize the rich. At that point you had a lot of rich people marrying into more impoverished noble families, which is ironically around the same time as Hans Christian Andersen and the Brothers Grimm were writing. Which is why marriage is seen as a reward, because it grants nobility, and in this case because the noble house has little else to give. If they had something else to give you'd be better off avoiding the sword of Damocles and taking the cash.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-11, 10:31 PM
The problem is that even a dragonslaying lady is just one lady. She can't rule by force, because while she might be able to use her bread roll to penetrate the breadroll shaped hole in the dragon's armor, she isn't liable to be able to remain awake indefinitely. And if she makes too much of a fuss getting killed in her sleep or poisoned is very likely.

Depends on the game system (this is the RPG subforum). There are plenty where "able to slay a dragon singlehandedly" correlates strongly with "harder to kill than Rasputin," and just as many where it doesn't.

Coidzor
2014-08-11, 10:42 PM
So you're the King of a small warlordy kingdom, and you have trouble with a dragon or whatever that your army just isn't up to dealing with. Years ago, you would have grabbed your friends and gone to battle, but these days, your joints creak, you can barely swing your mighty greatsword anymore, and you just aren't feeling all that powerful. Your kids? Freaking lazy accountants who barely know which end of the sword is the stabby one.. They couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.
Then some adventurers go out into the woods to kill the dragon. You figure "yeah, okay, my daughter for defeating the dragon, since let's face it, if they get mad anyone who can take down THAT thing can probably solo my castle anyways. This way I at least get to retire with my wife first, and it more or less stays in the family".
Then some lady in fancy armor that's probably worth more than every piece of siege available to you by itself comes wandering back carrying a dragons head in a cart and a rune covered glowing sword thing by her side, and you realize she probably isn't going to be interested in your lazy kid son, and most likely the princess won't be that appealing either..

What to do at this stage?

Well, I suppose I'd see what the lady wanted, and then later, if she didn't just murderhobo me, find out why my spymasters hadn't informed me of such a powerful PC in the area.

Frankly though, I figure I'd just give her both kids and let her figure out which one she wanted to keep.

I suppose if she didn't want either and wasn't just coming by the take the throne by force I'd do the standard thing and fob her off with a territory that needs pacifying so that she can spend a campaign getting the place into order while I look into her and set about securing my dynasty properly.


King:Here's my son. All yours. While you're at it, could you make a man out of him? I've been trying for the last 23 yeas and got nowhere. But I have confidence you can do better!

Lady Dragonslayer: Make a man out of...HIM? The CR of that encounter's a whole lot higher then the Dragon was. I could get 10 more dragons killed before I was done making a man out of HIM.

King: Well, I guess it's a worthy challenge then! Think of all the Roleplay XP you'll get!

Heh. XD


Is adoption even a thing? I mean, I guess he could knight her or make her into countess (duchess, baroness, whatever), but I don't think he is just able to invite random people into his family. Royal blood is an important thing.

Warlords, though.


I don't think he covered that actually, he's addressing the "only sons" cases. A truly matrilinear inheritance scheme and a truly patrilinear inheritance scheme both have the same issues if the ruler produces no daughters or sons, respectively. i.e. The adventurer that marries into such a situation with the design of eventually becoming the ruler is better off just taking over the throne by force and establishing a new dynasty.

Become part of the Royal house then take over the country seems like it damages the kingdom(AKA The Loot) less than "murder everyone half-way competent that stands between me and the throne," as far as plans go.

Makes it far simpler to ward off jealous cousins and Williams of Normandy to not have personally murdered the army's commanders.


Depends. The hero's immature 12 year old player might declare that his PC attempts to kill the king on the spot for not offering any good loot.

Yes, well, that's why if she has larger than a C cup you just have her poisoned with enough poison to make a level 20 Monk blush. Before she makes it into the throne room, preferably.

Mark Hall
2014-08-13, 12:49 AM
Anyone else thinking of the movie "Dragonslayer" where, upon the hero killing the dragon, the king show up to put a sword in the corpse?

Averis Vol
2014-08-13, 12:57 AM
Well, you guys didn't negotiate a price ahead of time..... Why not just ask her what she wants? A thing? a place? a generic favor?

Knaight
2014-08-13, 02:01 AM
As long as you're bringing modern ideas into a medieval climate to watch them clash, why are you assuming that the princess won't be that appealing?

I'm pretty sure that this is a specific situation currently in an actual game, and not a hypothetical. Which means that the characters involved are known, and those details are pretty set in stone - there's the boring accountant prince, the princess, and the adventurer that is known (to the GM, if not to the king) not to be interested in the princess. There's some leeway here - the princess sounds like she could easily be more developed, the boring accountant prince could easily have a double life with a much more interesting part, etc. Still, we're dealing in specifics.

Coming back to the task at hand - adoption into the royal family is a pretty good possibility. Lower titles could also work - even if there's no real feudal system and nobility outside of royalty isn't really a thing, there's fun titles like "champion of the king" or "royal emissary" just waiting to be handed out.

Then there's glory. Maybe the king has a chronicler (though that was more of a town thing), maybe there's just the old fashioned information network of travelers, maybe there are entertainers. Regardless, the kingdom is in a pretty good position to spread the name of the dragon slayer far and wide, play up the glory of the event, and maybe even sneak in a bit of propaganda involving the kingdom it happened in - exaggerating the number of soldiers that did some searching for the dragon before the adventurer got there is always a good start.

horngeek
2014-08-13, 02:26 AM
Or, like people have said, this is a world with magic.

It is not outside the realm of possibility that some of that magic may be able to compensate for the lack of a Y chromosome (although, you're not getting anything other than daughters out of that marriage no matter how you try).

Now, the real question is, what if it's a dragon who rescues your princess. :smallbiggrin:

Kaeso
2014-08-13, 03:26 AM
So you're the King of a small warlordy kingdom, and you have trouble with a dragon or whatever that your army just isn't up to dealing with. Years ago, you would have grabbed your friends and gone to battle, but these days, your joints creak, you can barely swing your mighty greatsword anymore, and you just aren't feeling all that powerful. Your kids? Freaking lazy accountants who barely know which end of the sword is the stabby one.. They couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.
Then some adventurers go out into the woods to kill the dragon. You figure "yeah, okay, my daughter for defeating the dragon, since let's face it, if they get mad anyone who can take down THAT thing can probably solo my castle anyways. This way I at least get to retire with my wife first, and it more or less stays in the family".
Then some lady in fancy armor that's probably worth more than every piece of siege available to you by itself comes wandering back carrying a dragons head in a cart and a rune covered glowing sword thing by her side, and you realize she probably isn't going to be interested in your lazy kid son, and most likely the princess won't be that appealing either..

What to do at this stage?

If the reward was widely known to be your daughter and some lady took up the job, can we assume that's the way she swings? Otherwise, just offer the son. Being married into royalty is a source of great prestige so I can really imagine her refusing, especially if the reward was known beforehand.

Slipperychicken
2014-08-13, 06:40 AM
If the reward was widely known to be your daughter and some lady took up the job, can we assume that's the way she swings?

Good luck passing off a gay marriage as legitimate, though. Every claimant worth his bloodline would tear it to pieces.

Hyena
2014-08-13, 06:49 AM
Gay marriage is not going to cut it in royal court, because royal marriage has two important goals - less importantly, form alliances between the kingdoms, and more importantly - produce heirs, so the dynasty will not end. While gay marriage can do the first (if the setting is progressive, despite still existing in the non-democratic era), it can't do the second. On the other hand, a bastard can be produced and legitimized, in order for someone to inherit, - history knows some examples of that happening.

And before you say "but there's the lazy son, he can inherit!", we can probably safely say that nobody in the realm wants him ruling. He IS lazy and worthless son.

The Random NPC
2014-08-13, 07:20 AM
Gay marriage is not going to cut it in royal court, because royal marriage has two important goals - less importantly, form alliances between the kingdoms, and more importantly - produce heirs, so the dynasty will not end. While gay marriage can do the first (if the setting is progressive, despite still existing in the non-democratic era), it can't do the second. On the other hand, a bastard can be produced and legitimized, in order for someone to inherit, - history knows some examples of that happening.

And before you say "but there's the lazy son, he can inherit!", we can probably safely say that nobody in the realm wants him ruling. He IS lazy and worthless son.

But with magic, it's entirely possible for a gay couple to produce a heir. And contrary to what horngeek believes, I believe you could get a son, because magic.

Hyena
2014-08-13, 07:40 AM
You know, now that you mention it, I'm pretty sure that BoEF had something for that specific purpose.

Segev
2014-08-13, 08:29 AM
If this is a specific situation...offer the son. A dragonslaying Queen could easily become a ruling Queen if she were so inclined, and if not, and the accountant is feckless as well as boring, she can ensure that an advisor of her choosing is de facto ruler.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-13, 01:06 PM
(although, you're not getting anything other than daughters out of that marriage no matter how you try).

I don't know, I wouldn't put it past the infamous Girdle at least to be that comprehensive.


Now, the real question is, what if it's a dragon who rescues your princess. :smallbiggrin:

You hope it's one that can change shape, if only so your kingdom doesn't suffer a critical brain bleach shortage within the year.:smalltongue:

toapat
2014-08-13, 01:12 PM
Now, it doesn't matter all that much, from a family perspective, whether or not the child particularly WANTS to create heirs, because that's their duty; in that sense, homosexual men have it easier than lesbians, because you can always get your wife knocked up by someone else when you're not interested in women, but it's not convenient, most of the time, to have someone else bear the children you're supposed to.

at least in DnD, Lesbian couples have about an easy of a time as heterosexual couples. its actually the M/M ones that have issues. Alter self is only 10 Minutes/CL while Shapechange is at best a day.

And that assumes that polymorph style spells are not themselves functioning as Contraceptives. who knows what wizard in their personal haze of manic supersanity designed those spells for what reasons they chose.

Maybe you pay one of the court wizards to train the princess till she acquires the feat Precocious Apprentice (Alter Other). If they really have issues, have the court wizards send out feelers for that one really creepy wizard in the world who specializes in Embrace/Shun the dark chaos


I offer her my daughter's hand in marriage and a girdle of Masculinity/Femininity so my daughter can produce heirs and the hero can still go off adventuring. ^^

preferably a custom one using the curse rider. or ideally an Eternal Wand of Persisted Alter self

really, all this discussion does is make me imagine that in DnD settings theres some huge conspiracy of lesbian wizards/clerics (who themselves only have Mommy and Other mommy for parents) who want to remove the existence of the "male tyrant" through either direct means or by spreading the cursed + Nonbinding girdles of 3.5 throughout the kingdom, that also are gender keyed and only work for women

Segev
2014-08-13, 01:21 PM
Between the fact that the Girdle in question uses Bestow Curse as its base spell, and Bestow Curse explicitly states that it can generate "other effects" as long as they're not more powerful than those listed in the spell proper, I'm of the firm belief that you can use it to curse somebody into the opposite sex. If they're willing, they may consider it "cursed with awesome," but it is still subject to Remove Curse.

Angelalex242
2014-08-13, 01:37 PM
If the Dragon rescues the princess...

Well, half dragons have to come from somewhere...and that +8 strength bonus us kind of handy on an heir to the throne. +2 Int/Wis/Cha helps too.

VeliciaL
2014-08-13, 02:57 PM
Between the fact that the Girdle in question uses Bestow Curse as its base spell, and Bestow Curse explicitly states that it can generate "other effects" as long as they're not more powerful than those listed in the spell proper, I'm of the firm belief that you can use it to curse somebody into the opposite sex. If they're willing, they may consider it "cursed with awesome," but it is still subject to Remove Curse.

As a trans woman... can I live in this setting? :smallbiggrin:

Segev
2014-08-13, 03:05 PM
As a trans woman... can I live in this setting? :smallbiggrin:

Not setting specific; it's just what I would, unless the DM disagreed with me, expect Bestow Curse to be able to do. (If nothing else, Craft Wondrous Item on a cleric who can cast 4th level spells should enable it, as they can make Girdles of Masculinity/Femininity by the RAW.)

If you don't mind my asking, I'm never clear on which direction "trans X" is going. Does "trans woman" mean "born male, wants to be female" or "born female, wants to be male?" (I am referring to physical body, here, and mean no offense by the question.)

Put another way, is X in "trans X" what you are pre- or post-transition?

Hyena
2014-08-13, 03:25 PM
This question can be answered just by looking at her "gender" field below the avatar. Trans-woman means post-transition.

VeliciaL
2014-08-13, 03:35 PM
Not setting specific; it's just what I would, unless the DM disagreed with me, expect Bestow Curse to be able to do. (If nothing else, Craft Wondrous Item on a cleric who can cast 4th level spells should enable it, as they can make Girdles of Masculinity/Femininity by the RAW.)

If you don't mind my asking, I'm never clear on which direction "trans X" is going. Does "trans woman" mean "born male, wants to be female" or "born female, wants to be male?" (I am referring to physical body, here, and mean no offense by the question.)

Put another way, is X in "trans X" what you are pre- or post-transition?

"Born male, wants to be female" is probably the simplest way to put it. It's not perfect, but it's a decent short-hand.


This question can be answered just by looking at her "gender" field below the avatar. Trans-woman means post-transition.

Not quite, I'm pre-transition and identify that way. Exact definitions of these things tend to be kinda fuzzy though.

EDIT: Switching gears for a moment...


(although, you're not getting anything other than daughters out of that marriage no matter how you try).

You do realize children aren't copies of the parents, right? I Don't see how shapechange magic would necessarily preclude offspring from being either gender.

Segev
2014-08-13, 03:37 PM
Oh, the symbol under your name does make it pretty clear what the desired state is, at least. I just didn't notice it there. My bad!

Sith_Happens
2014-08-13, 03:43 PM
You do realize children aren't copies of the parents, right? I Don't see how shapechange magic would necessarily preclude offspring from being either gender.

By not turning one of the "father's" X-chromosomes into a Y.

Segev
2014-08-13, 03:55 PM
By not turning one of the "father's" X-chromosomes into a Y.

The thing is, if it's changing them down to the cellular level such that the father now has sperm, there's no reason to assume it wouldn't go all the way and finish the job.

Or, put another way, it's magic that's making her magically into a boy. If shape-shifted dragons make half-dragons with humans, and elves make half-elves with humans, then a magically-boyitized girl can make boys or girls with a human girl.


The alternative is to suggest that, if you zap a boy into a girl so they can have kids with a boy, they have the option of either boys or UBERboys, since XY and YY are the possible combinations there. :P

horngeek
2014-08-13, 04:16 PM
Heh. I was more thinking a spell that didn't actually require any transformation for curtains=baby.

I will acknowledge that if your method involves the Girdle, you'll likely get the standard distribution of boy/girl. :smalltongue:

Sith_Happens
2014-08-13, 04:28 PM
The thing is, if it's changing them down to the cellular level such that the father now has sperm, there's no reason to assume it wouldn't go all the way and finish the job.

Or, put another way, it's magic that's making her magically into a boy. If shape-shifted dragons make half-dragons with humans, and elves make half-elves with humans, then a magically-boyitized girl can make boys or girls with a human girl.

The alternative is to suggest that, if you zap a boy into a girl so they can have kids with a boy, they have the option of either boys or UBERboys, since XY and YY are the possible combinations there. :P

Which is what I said already (more or less), but technically there's no official word on the matter.

Metahuman1
2014-08-13, 05:06 PM
I propose that the real question is: What happens when The Adventurer, a Titan, A Storm Giant, a Mind Flayer and a Dragon All show up to rescue the same princess at the same time, and are ALL of the female persuasion, and Heroically inclined, and, how do I say this delicately, interested?

...

This sounds stupidly hilarious the more I think on it.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-13, 07:22 PM
I propose that the real question is: What happens when The Adventurer, a Titan, A Storm Giant, a Mind Flayer and a Dragon All show up to rescue the same princess at the same time, and are ALL of the female persuasion, and Heroically inclined, and, how do I say this delicately, interested?

You end up with a yuri harem comedy.

horngeek
2014-08-13, 07:32 PM
Someone should write a fic for that. :P

toapat
2014-08-13, 07:36 PM
The thing is, if it's changing them down to the cellular level such that the father now has sperm, there's no reason to assume it wouldn't go all the way and finish the job.

Or, put another way, it's magic that's making her magically into a boy. If shape-shifted dragons make half-dragons with humans, and elves make half-elves with humans, then a magically-boyitized girl can make boys or girls with a human girl.


The alternative is to suggest that, if you zap a boy into a girl so they can have kids with a boy, they have the option of either boys or UBERboys, since XY and YY are the possible combinations there. :P

its also magic, so theres nothing to say it cant stabilize the catastrophic cellular hell of restabilizing and re-engineering a body without changing the gene pairing. Or that it alternatively could, as determined by the crafter/caster of the arcane that is performing such.

However, YY cant actually develop, and would cause a miscarage in the girdle wearer if impregnated.

JusticeZero
2014-08-13, 07:40 PM
Alternately, don't worry about it because chromosome structures are the bizarre fever dream imaginings of some Alteration-illiterate bard who either doesn't understand or doesn't care about realistic Platonic inherent runic pattern interaction theory.

Coidzor
2014-08-13, 08:04 PM
Good luck passing off a gay marriage as legitimate, though. Every claimant worth his bloodline would tear it to pieces.

Eh, if they can kill a dragon with a toothpick, why didn't *they* go and kill the dragon?


You do realize children aren't copies of the parents, right? I Don't see how shapechange magic would necessarily preclude offspring from being either gender.

I suppose if magic and genetics mix in a certain way, it'd be that both parents would only have X chromosomes to give.

Although I suppose one of those chromosomes could be ye Modified X with the triggers to cause virilization or whatever the process is called that causes fetuses to start developing along the male-type body plan.


If the Dragon rescues the princess...

Well, half dragons have to come from somewhere...and that +8 strength bonus us kind of handy on an heir to the throne. +2 Int/Wis/Cha helps too.

The LA makes it rather unfortunate if they're not a useless layabout Aristocrat, though.

Mando Knight
2014-08-13, 08:09 PM
Alternately, don't worry about it because chromosome structures are the bizarre fever dream imaginings of some Alteration-illiterate bard who either doesn't understand or doesn't care about realistic Platonic inherent runic pattern interaction theory.

Really, in a world where humans and dragons can interbreed with almost literally anything else that can speak, and elements really are things like water, fire, and earth, I doubt our real-world biochemistry really matters at all.

Coidzor
2014-08-13, 08:16 PM
The alternative is to suggest that, if you zap a boy into a girl so they can have kids with a boy, they have the option of either boys or uberboys, since xy and yy are the possible combinations there. :p



Punnit Square'd
X
Y


X
XX - Female-type
XY - Male-type


Y
XY - Male-type
YY - Nonviable

Sartharina
2014-08-13, 08:20 PM
You hope it's one that can change shape, if only so your kingdom doesn't suffer a critical brain bleach shortage within the year.:smalltongue:Why brain bleach?

Metahuman1
2014-08-13, 08:21 PM
hornGeek and Sith_Happens: Or we should see if we can get that togeather in a Highschool Harem Comedy Game.

Sartharina
2014-08-13, 08:22 PM
Punnit Square'd
X
Y


X
XX - Female-type
XY - Male-type


Y
XY - Male-type
YY - Nonviable

Not necessarily. Genetics are weirder than that. There are some guys with XX genetics, and some women with XY(Complete Androgen
Insensitivity Syndrome is one cause for the latter). Intersex is a thing, though rare.

horngeek
2014-08-13, 08:54 PM
hornGeek and Sith_Happens: Or we should see if we can get that togeather in a Highschool Harem Comedy Game.

...I would be up for that. One of my character ideas once was actually 'princess who's been the kidnapped and doesn't want it to happen to her again, and one thing lead to another...'. :smalltongue:

Sith_Happens
2014-08-13, 09:51 PM
...I would be up for that. One of my character ideas once was actually 'princess who's been the kidnapped and doesn't want it to happen to her again, and one thing lead to another...'. :smalltongue:

...And before long she's cutting boulders in half with a butter knife.

horngeek
2014-08-13, 09:57 PM
Well, the concept is her as a Magus (PF, not D&D).

So... potentially? :smallwink:

Coidzor
2014-08-13, 10:16 PM
Not necessarily. Genetics are weirder than that. There are some guys with XX genetics, and some women with XY(Complete Androgen
Insensitivity Syndrome is one cause for the latter). Intersex is a thing, though rare.

Yeah, I didn't need to go into more specifics than pointing out that two XY people can make XX in addition to XY and YY, assuming the ability for them to pass gametes to one another and make a zygote and then fetus and so on.

SiuiS
2014-08-13, 11:26 PM
So you're the King of a small warlordy kingdom, and you have trouble with a dragon or whatever that your army just isn't up to dealing with. Years ago, you would have grabbed your friends and gone to battle, but these days, your joints creak, you can barely swing your mighty greatsword anymore, and you just aren't feeling all that powerful. Your kids? Freaking lazy accountants who barely know which end of the sword is the stabby one.. They couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.
Then some adventurers go out into the woods to kill the dragon. You figure "yeah, okay, my daughter for defeating the dragon, since let's face it, if they get mad anyone who can take down THAT thing can probably solo my castle anyways. This way I at least get to retire with my wife first, and it more or less stays in the family".
Then some lady in fancy armor that's probably worth more than every piece of siege available to you by itself comes wandering back carrying a dragons head in a cart and a rune covered glowing sword thing by her side, and you realize she probably isn't going to be interested in your lazy kid son, and most likely the princess won't be that appealing either..

What to do at this stage?

Nope, sorry. The princess was on the line, that was the agreement. Players and town criers the land over have all said "king so desperate he would even give his daughter's hand in marriage", that's what's on the line.

It's so much more interesting having a lady knight who doesn't want a princess and a princess who doesn't want a lady knight and they're both on the spot, than to have a simple answer, move along to the next murder quest.

It's actually a thing now too! Plenty if comics and such about this very thing.

horngeek
2014-08-13, 11:30 PM
Wait, really? Could you point to any of them, because that sounds interesting.

Coidzor
2014-08-13, 11:44 PM
Wait, really? Could you point to any of them, because that sounds interesting.

Especially what conceit they use to keep the woman who can kill a dragon with a toothpick holding to an agreement she wants no part of.

Mark Hall
2014-08-14, 01:01 AM
Good luck passing off a gay marriage as legitimate, though. Every claimant worth his bloodline would tear it to pieces.

Depends entirely on the society, really. While it might have trouble in a lot of Tolkien-based fantasy, it's not unreasonable to assume that, if women can be kings and legitimacy flows from the bloodline, that the marriage of a worthy claimant to the throne and a daughter of a king could be seen as entirely legitimate... no matter the gender of the claimant. The daughter might or might not produce heirs with the help of a third party... or heirs might be adopted, and thus become part of the family.

Heck, Gaius Julius Caesar's only legitimate children were daughters... his legitimate heir was a nephew he adopted as his heir, and Augustus was able to ride that to five centuries of Empire.

Angelalex242
2014-08-14, 02:09 AM
It mostly depends on the system, yeah.

Tolkien, Arthurian, Arabian, you won't get away with gay marriage.

Far East, on the other hand...well, that's what concubines are for. The lesbian couple just takes a male concubine, heirs are produced just fine, and all is good.

horngeek
2014-08-14, 02:20 AM
Well, yeah.

But also keep in mind that you're not playing on Earth in these times necessarily, you're playing in a fantasy world that may resemble Earth in some ways.

Even if you prefer to hold to what actually happened... as far as Arabian goes, you can justify a lot, considering this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hakam_II) was a historical thing.

Coidzor
2014-08-14, 02:23 AM
Insisting that it just simply couldn't work ever, ever, ever, doesn't really do much beyond showcase the speaker's biases anyway, since it's all up to the DM in the end.

Much more interesting to give potential plothooks and bad decisions resulting from various interpretations until we have the most lulzy and adventure-worthy.

SiuiS
2014-08-14, 03:00 AM
Wait, really? Could you point to any of them, because that sounds interesting.

I can try. It's been from archive binging and finding it all is often tedious after the fact because I dot remember keywords because dumb. Lessee.

There is the ever-fun Lady knight and her waifish minstrel boyfriend.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/190d069e5947d051b101c3484f199440/tumblr_n0re4948wa1qd80v3o1_1280.jpg


There are a lot of tumblr pages which feature this subversion. Often the female knight intentionally wins the contest/slays the dragon by surprise and reveals her sex at the end, to which the princess usually responds to the king's stammering with "no take backs!", the couples featured in cameos.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/6227fa16abeff4bd9572b746b62785c2/tumblr_mzu7nkqZR21qilepko1_500.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/efd732943ee920e6e6e406a20d7d5072/tumblr_mhw9xfV5nP1qcqqnio1_r1_1280.png
http://31.media.tumblr.com/dea39be18712f104c5fe04bcd268b0cf/tumblr_n0ydheGCxq1qgzjwuo1_500.jpg


I'm on the right track but the actual knight stuff is deeper in. Gimme time to edit.

And a favorite subversion. (http://magnificenttallgeese.tumblr.com/post/91093359345/insanitybreach-i-want-a-video-game-based-around)

Ah. Here we are. First, Princess Princess (http://strangelykatie.com/princessprincess/), tale of a princess who rescues a princess. Some minor fairy take gender politics.
Havent read this one (http://smgoetter.tumblr.com/post/78864710895/haircut-this-is-a-14-page-story-ive-been) but it looks promising; the BBEG's daughter runs away. Coming of age, I guess? She's a princess.

Och. Can't find the one I'm looking for. Everything right now is about robin Williams. Ah well. The man deserves his moment.


Especially what conceit they use to keep the woman who can kill a dragon with a toothpick holding to an agreement she wants no part of.

Social, mostly.

IF you are deciding to go up to a king, accept an offer, go and find the dragon, kill it, come back, pick up the reins of an existing societal institution (the kingdom) and smoothly transition in as part of the family, instead of;
killing the king, writing the daughter off as lost, maybe "marrying" another survivor for token legality, and taking the kingdom;
THEN I see no reason why awkward social situations will somehow be unable to shake your aplomb.


Depends entirely on the society, really. While it might have trouble in a lot of Tolkien-based fantasy, it's not unreasonable to assume that, if women can be kings and legitimacy flows from the bloodline, that the marriage of a worthy claimant to the throne and a daughter of a king could be seen as entirely legitimate... no matter the gender of the claimant. The daughter might or might not produce heirs with the help of a third party... or heirs might be adopted, and thus become part of the family.

Heck, Gaius Julius Caesar's only legitimate children were daughters... his legitimate heir was a nephew he adopted as his heir, and Augustus was able to ride that to five centuries of Empire.

It's not even unreasonable in Tolkien fantasy, it's just erased. There's an actual king who was a woman, was raised by her father to replace him and chose to specifically become king upon coronation rather than queen. One of the supposed owners of the codex Gigas. Katherine II? I can't remember her name.


Insisting that it just simply couldn't work ever, ever, ever, doesn't really do much beyond showcase the speaker's biases anyway, since it's all up to the DM in the end.

Much more interesting to give potential plothooks and bad decisions resulting from various interpretations until we have the most lulzy and adventure-worthy.

Legit, this. I've always found that if you sit back and wonder "huh, what happens if this plays out?" You'll get better games than knee-jerk "no, that's not how this works".

toapat
2014-08-14, 07:39 AM
Not necessarily. Genetics are weirder than that. There are some guys with XX genetics, and some women with XY(Complete Androgen
Insensitivity Syndrome is one cause for the latter). Intersex is a thing, though rare.

developement glitches are different from completely lacking the X, the X is known to code for critical physiology but, like most of what genes do, the exact details are unknown.

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-08-14, 07:51 AM
Let's get down to business
To improve your son!
Why's he such a wastrel
What have you done?
He's the saddest prince I've ever met
But you can bet before we're through
Mister, I'll make a him a man for you!

Am I the only one to have "I can make you a man" from The Rocky Horror Show going around in my head? :smallamused:

Anyway, back to the topic:

Firstly, the heroine will know the score - what level of reward she can expect, who the main players are and so on. So she might be happy with a monetary reward, a treasure from the vaults, land, a position in the king's court or whatever, and ask for that accordingly.

Secondly, even if, for reasons of politics, she does have to marry the prince (or even the princess), there's nothing to say that she has to live with them, and people can be bribed to confirm that the marriage was consumated, even if if never was. She could, for instance, be appointed as the King's champion, and spend most of her time away from court dealing with local problems.

There's also the possibility that the king could have a long talk with the heroine about what the mother of a future heir would receive, she might weigh that up against a potential future as an adventurer and decide that she could do enough to produce one child with the prince - whether that's by lying back and thinking of Greyhawk, or through some alternate form of insemination. Some magic may also be involved, say something that guarantees fertilsation so it's a one-time event - or possibly a hallucinogen to make the prince look half-way attractive :smallwink: .

Or, if the prince isn't close enough to the throne to worry about lineage any time soon, she can produce a child with someone who she likes the look of, and isn't sufficiently different form the prince to raise questions.


at least in DnD, Lesbian couples have about an easy of a time as heterosexual couples. its actually the M/M ones that have issues. Alter self is only 10 Minutes/CL while Shapechange is at best a day.

And that assumes that polymorph style spells are not themselves functioning as Contraceptives.
Polymorph Any Object has variable durations depending on the type of transformation - ranging from a few minutes for a massive transformation (a pebble to a human is the given example), to permanent for a small one (manticore to shrew is the example for this one). I'd put male->female/ female-> male in that permanent category.

On that basis, turning Prince Cedric into Princess Cedrica for a year probably isn't too difficult. She might have to sit around for a few weeks until ovulation occurs (and for lesbian couples, the newly-male member of the pair might be effectively sterile for a few days until they've generated enough spermatozoa to be viable), or, given it's a relatively small change compared to some that the spell can perform, the spell might be able to generate the casters choice of available genetic material and physiological state at casting, or other magic may be available that assists in those ways.

Depending on the nature of the culture (patriarchal or matriarchal), the spell may even be able to make all the spermatozoa carry either a Y or an X - so you're guaranteed a male or female child. Although you're probably getting away from straight Polymorphs and more into Wish level magic, or possibly high level divine.

Segev
2014-08-14, 08:20 AM
IF you want to force the awkward "but the deal was the Princess's hand..." situation, you probably want to do two things: Make it so there are only Princesses to choose from (the King's got no sons, so he was half-hoping to solve his heir problem with this, as well), and the Kingdom really can't afford a CR-worthy reward in monetary value.

Alternatively, have the Prince be already betrothed to the Princess of another nation, and that political tie or her dowry are critical to the Kingdom's future. Now the potential Prince is present...but not technically available without some serious politics.

Having it be the King just pulling a letter-of-the-law deal CAN work, but that puts him in the LN to LE territory, and somewhat in the Lawful Stupid, since he's basically telling an expert trouble-shooter who took out a problem his whole army couldn't handle that he's going to renege on what said trouble-shooter thought was the deal. This is only even marginally wise if there's reason to think the Heroine will buy it. He could be being reasonable, if he legitimately has no equivalent alternative and/or feels the Heroine is trying to put one over on him by changing the deal after the fact, but wisdom and reason may not be the same thing when dealing with a one-woman army.

LokiRagnarok
2014-08-14, 08:24 AM
Why does everyone assume being able to take down a dragon is equivalent to being able to take out a city or army? They require vastly different tactics and maybe the heroine just happened to have a Sword of Dragonslaying, which will do squad against an army.

Merellis
2014-08-14, 08:44 AM
Why does everyone assume being able to take down a dragon is equivalent to being able to take out a city or army? They require vastly different tactics and maybe the heroine just happened to have a Sword of Dragonslaying, which will do squad against an army.

Because they couldn't handle the dragon. For all their numbers, their weapons, their cities, they still could not handle the dragon.

One dragon held the place hostage and one woman walks up and slays the damn thing, most of them are going to have the idea of:

Dragon > Army

Heroine > Dragon

Heroine > Army

If only by reputation and skill alone she is /strong/ and not one to anger. Why? Because the beast that terrorized them is dead by her hand and she dragged it's damn head back. She could do that to a beast of fire and scales, who knows what she could do to mere humans.

Segev
2014-08-14, 08:55 AM
Why does everyone assume being able to take down a dragon is equivalent to being able to take out a city or army? They require vastly different tactics and maybe the heroine just happened to have a Sword of Dragonslaying, which will do squad against an army.


Because they couldn't handle the dragon. For all their numbers, their weapons, their cities, they still could not handle the dragon.

One dragon held the place hostage and one woman walks up and slays the damn thing, most of them are going to have the idea of:

Dragon > Army

Heroine > Dragon

Heroine > Army

If only by reputation and skill alone she is /strong/ and not one to anger. Why? Because the beast that terrorized them is dead by her hand and she dragged it's damn head back. She could do that to a beast of fire and scales, who knows what she could do to mere humans.

Exactly this. Additionally, even if somebody has it in their head that they can mob her with numbers, or otherwise use tactics on her that wouldn't work on the dragon, she's still got the massive intimidation factor based on the fact that she can probably cut down 3-5 men-at-arms before any of them get an action. That means the men-at-arms now have to ask themselves if they want to be the first ones to approach her.

I wouldn't want to be the King, either, if she got to the point where she felt he was her enemy. She probably can get away, and there's remarkably little difference between a castle full of guards with a King at its heart and a dungeon full of orcs with a Chieftan at its heart.

AMFV
2014-08-14, 09:22 AM
The thing is, if it's changing them down to the cellular level such that the father now has sperm, there's no reason to assume it wouldn't go all the way and finish the job.

Or, put another way, it's magic that's making her magically into a boy. If shape-shifted dragons make half-dragons with humans, and elves make half-elves with humans, then a magically-boyitized girl can make boys or girls with a human girl.


The alternative is to suggest that, if you zap a boy into a girl so they can have kids with a boy, they have the option of either boys or UBERboys, since XY and YY are the possible combinations there. :P

That's actually not correct though, a shapechanged dragon has enough of it's nature leftover to produce Half-Dragon offspring even if the creature it turned into had no draconic characteristics. Meaning that something in the Dragon's nature was present for the reproductive act, so we would have to assume that there would be a chance of producing YY or XY pairings.

However as with mules the most likely outcome without magical interference is likely miscarriage: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00316.htm. That article would seem to reflect that YY Humans have a very small chance of living, so magical assistance would likely be required. (Don't quote me on that though, I'm not a geneticist, just a dude with Google.)

Also we see the same type of relationship in producing half-fiends, since half-fiends can be produced by characters who are under the affects of alter self or shapechange. So we must conclude that those spells do not actually change the fundamentals of your DNA and your genetic code, but that the changes happen at some level above that, sustained by magic rather than by genetics.

This is of course only true for 3.5. But I would say that since a Dragon who is shapechanged presents 100% Dragon DNA to their mates, we would have to assume that a shapechanged woman would present 100% female contribution as well. Although it is magic so that may or may not be questionable.

Angelalex242
2014-08-14, 10:39 AM
Am I the only one to have "I can make you a man" from The Rocky Horror Show going around in my head? :smallamused:



Nope. You're looking for Mulan, Captain Shang's I'll make a man out of you song.

Segev
2014-08-14, 10:51 AM
Honestly, "dragons produce half-dragons" is more leaning towards "it's magic, so the DNA-based logic probably doesn't apply" argument, as far as I'm concerned.

AMFV
2014-08-14, 10:54 AM
Honestly, "dragons produce half-dragons" is more leaning towards "it's magic, so the DNA-based logic probably doesn't apply" argument, as far as I'm concerned.

Well but the point you were making was that the product of both parents wasn't in the DNA rather the product of one parent and the shapechanged creature they turned into. Half Dragons and certain Half Fiends are a pretty heavy rebuff to that speculation. Although the "it's magic" reasoning might work, I would probably suggest that folks are correct when they say that two women will always produce a female offspring, which could create some interesting story drama. You could have a functional Amazon society.

Knaight
2014-08-14, 12:41 PM
Why does everyone assume being able to take down a dragon is equivalent to being able to take out a city or army? They require vastly different tactics and maybe the heroine just happened to have a Sword of Dragonslaying, which will do squad against an army.

For one thing, the character is explicitly decked out in magical equipment worth more than the entire armory of the military, the OP explicitly notes that it's an assumption in the setting (which means it's probably one of the games where that is the case), etc.

Metahuman1
2014-08-14, 12:53 PM
I can try. It's been from archive binging and finding it all is often tedious after the fact because I dot remember keywords because dumb. Lessee.

There is the ever-fun Lady knight and her waifish minstrel boyfriend.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/190d069e5947d051b101c3484f199440/tumblr_n0re4948wa1qd80v3o1_1280.jpg




Ok, I'm curious, what is that image from? Just a stand alone or is there a comic to go with it?

Cazero
2014-08-14, 02:16 PM
On the subject of DNA and offsrping possibilities, you are all making a big assumption here.
Who said that the D&D universes' genetic mashup was identical to our in regard of sex/specie? Who said they even have a genome?
The simple fact that half-dragons can exist hint at the fact that in D&D, genetics is f***ed up.

toapat
2014-08-14, 02:17 PM
I would probably suggest that folks are correct when they say that two women will always produce a female offspring, which could create some interesting story drama. You could have a functional Amazon society.

bringing that up, Male drow probably shouldnt even exist, having just died out from the matriarchs realizing that they can just use cursed belts of fertility to replace the less prefered gender with fair maidens.

i still like the idea that theres a secret society of lesbian Mages and priests who are slowly depopulating the sentinent world of men through Girdles of Masculinity/Feminitity (Female to male only, noncursed), but they are also opposed by a male only society of mages/priests


On the subject of DNA and offsrping possibilities, you are all making a big assumption here.
Who said that the D&D universes' genetic mashup was identical to our in regard of sex/specie? Who said they even have a genome?
The simple fact that half-dragons can exist hint at the fact that in D&D, genetics is f***ed up.

the Prime material functions as earth unless otherwise noted

and dragons have to be magic incarnate to even live, them needing things like a complete matching set with the spouse is the tiny problem

Angelalex242
2014-08-14, 03:47 PM
I figured the only reason that hasn't happened to Drow society is that there aren't enough futanari fans over at WOTC.

horngeek
2014-08-14, 03:57 PM
I figured the only reason that hasn't happened to Drow society is that there aren't enough futanari fans over at WOTC.

*spittakes*

Yeah, that's one option... or the Drow Matriarchs need someone to fulfill their RAR DOMINATION thing on.

I've always been of the opinion that Drow society only 'works' because Lolth is actively propping it up, personally.

And I love the visual look of the drow, but man, their society. :smallfrown:

(Basically, if Drizzt was representative of an entire, viable subculture that had its own societies, the drow would be much more interesting to me)

Metahuman1
2014-08-14, 04:05 PM
Kinda gotta agree with the above.

Am I the only one that finds it Ironic that in a lot of settings, Drow Females are also usually depicted as quite short for a none dwarf race and gender, and quite petite and delicate in there build to boot?

I almost want to accuse them of a variant on a napoleon complex.

toapat
2014-08-14, 04:09 PM
I figured the only reason that hasn't happened to Drow society is that there aren't enough futanari fans over at WOTC.

i think its moreso a problem of supply vs demand along with Lolth not being the only drow deity until 4th. and we are also talking about elves here, 400 years would be enough to seriously impact the male population percentage but for elves there will still be.

also, Lolth isnt really "kill all the men", even if she comes off as the lesbian goddess of drow and spiders. Having the ability to directly manipulate the drow she could have given them Asari style reproduction and just deleted the males

however, having a further societal stratification among the drow of the ruling "Maidenborn" and the lower if not enslaved "Corelliontouched" does seem like it fits the race


*spittakes*

Yeah, that's one option... or the Drow Matriarchs need someone to fulfill their RAR DOMINATION thing on.

I've always been of the opinion that Drow society only 'works' because Lolth is actively propping it up, personally.

And I love the visual look of the drow, but man, their society. :smallfrown:

(Basically, if Drizzt was representative of an entire, viable subculture that had its own societies, the drow would be much more interesting to me)

i wouldnt say that matriarchs wouldnt have male slaves, just exclusively reproduce with other noble women via magic belt.

as for their society, its definitely confirmed it only exists because Lolth wills it to, while having a bit more diversity then Step 1: Ally, Step 2: Backstab at critical moment would be better

Segev
2014-08-14, 04:09 PM
Am I the only one that finds it Ironic that in a lot of settings, Drow Females are also usually depicted as quite short for a none dwarf race and gender, and quite petite and delicate in there build to boot?

Uh, I've never seen them depicted that way. They're taller than drow males, as a general rule, and drow males are bigger than dwarves. Where have you seen this depiction you're referencing?

Metahuman1
2014-08-14, 05:17 PM
Uh, I've never seen them depicted that way. They're taller than drow males, as a general rule, and drow males are bigger than dwarves. Where have you seen this depiction you're referencing?

I've yet to see Art of them standing next to Drow males were they weren't at best equal in height if not shorter then the drow male, and I see them as often depicted as shorter then other elves and described as such, and Elves generally being short for medium sized races and the only shorter one's are usually dwarfs. And Dwarfs, unlike Drow in general and Drow females in particular, are rather broad to make up for the not tall thing.

Coidzor
2014-08-14, 05:20 PM
i still like the idea that theres a secret society of lesbian Mages and priests who are slowly depopulating the sentinent world of men through Girdles of Masculinity/Feminitity (Female to male only, noncursed), but they are also opposed by a male only society of mages/priests

You, uh, you don't need to be a misogynistic man to oppose that kind of stupidity. :smallconfused:


I figured the only reason that hasn't happened to Drow society is that there aren't enough futanari fans over at WOTC.

Probably, although if they got rid of all the male drow, who would they have to dominate? :smallamused:


I've always been of the opinion that Drow society only 'works' because Lolth is actively propping it up, personally.

(Basically, if Drizzt was representative of an entire, viable subculture that had its own societies, the drow would be much more interesting to me)

Isn't that all but stated outright in the canon on the subject?

Drizzt isn't so much a subculture as the ur-example of an entire demographic shift in the Drow population. There's now more Drow rebelling against the evil reputation and culture of their race than have actually been born. :smalltongue:

toapat
2014-08-14, 05:36 PM
You, uh, you don't need to be a misogynistic man to oppose that kind of stupidity. :smallconfused:

not like, opposed in the sense that its stupid and should be, opposed as in an organization basically doing the reverse of the same thing.

more like, these are shadow organizations which work to do that that the general 80% of the population would oppose if they knew about it. and were not a product of the organization's schemes

Coidzor
2014-08-14, 06:05 PM
not like, opposed in the sense that its stupid and should be, opposed as in an organization basically doing the reverse of the same thing.

more like, these are shadow organizations which work to do that that the general 80% of the population would oppose if they knew about it. and were not a product of the organization's schemes

Oh, ok, so two crazy cults working in the opposite direction from one another. xD

Amphetryon
2014-08-14, 06:32 PM
What happens to his existing wife, as mentioned towards the end of the OP?:smallbiggrin:

She challenges the adventurer to a duel, like Yareena and Tasha on TNG. [/geek]

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-08-15, 02:55 AM
This is of course only true for 3.5. But I would say that since a Dragon who is shapechanged presents 100% Dragon DNA to their mates, we would have to assume that a shapechanged woman would present 100% female contribution as well. Although it is magic so that may or may not be questionable.
Another possibility is that a shape-changed dragon wouldn't even consider producing genetic material for a lesser species - but it could be a female dragon that's shape-changed into a male of the target species to produce a half-dragon for whatever reason.

horngeek
2014-08-15, 03:12 AM
Well, since Half-Dragons are a thing, they probably did at some point...

SiuiS
2014-08-15, 05:03 AM
That's actually not correct though, a shapechanged dragon has enough of it's nature leftover to produce Half-Dragon offspring even if the creature it turned into had no draconic characteristics. Meaning that something in the Dragon's nature was present for the reproductive act, so we would have to assume that there would be a chance of producing YY or XY pairings.

However as with mules the most likely outcome without magical interference is likely miscarriage: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00316.htm. That article would seem to reflect that YY Humans have a very small chance of living, so magical assistance would likely be required. (Don't quote me on that though, I'm not a geneticist, just a dude with Google.)

Also we see the same type of relationship in producing half-fiends, since half-fiends can be produced by characters who are under the affects of alter self or shapechange. So we must conclude that those spells do not actually change the fundamentals of your DNA and your genetic code, but that the changes happen at some level above that, sustained by magic rather than by genetics.

This is of course only true for 3.5. But I would say that since a Dragon who is shapechanged presents 100% Dragon DNA to their mates, we would have to assume that a shapechanged woman would present 100% female contribution as well. Although it is magic so that may or may not be questionable.

Dragons are, like elves, specifically magical. THere is no genetic swap. There is the consumate act of coitus which generates genesis, and imbues traits of both creatures from the supernal superset of symbols for those creatures.

Dragons are just more advanced, mystically, in that you don't end up with only one type of dragon.


Honestly, "dragons produce half-dragons" is more leaning towards "it's magic, so the DNA-based logic probably doesn't apply" argument, as far as I'm concerned.

Pretty much.


Ok, I'm curious, what is that image from? Just a stand alone or is there a comic to go with it?

There are a couple, though nothing big. LAdy Knight and Willowy Poet Boyfriend, or something. It's a text line saying they like the idea of reversing that, and a comic of the knight giving the poet a bra to wave from the stands whenshe wins the joust, and then laughing at him when he does it because, come on, that's dorky. Other one offs and things. But no like, webcomic or anything. Like most of tumblr, it is memetic and absent of substance. XD


bringing that up, Male drow probably shouldnt even exist, having just died out from the matriarchs realizing that they can just use cursed belts of fertility to replace the less prefered gender with fair maidens.

Y'all are forgetting the % chance of just removing gender entirely I think.



the Prime material functions as earth unless otherwise noted

Elven and Draconic breeding are both instances of "otherwise specified".
Drow may be abberant in that they can potentially crossbreed with other elves, though. IT's unclear.


*spittakes*

Yeah, that's one option... or the Drow Matriarchs need someone to fulfill their RAR DOMINATION thing on.

I don't have to be a man to be dominated.


I've always been of the opinion that Drow society only 'works' because Lolth is actively propping it up, personally.

And I love the visual look of the drow, but man, their society. :smallfrown:

(Basically, if Drizzt was representative of an entire, viable subculture that had its own societies, the drow would be much more interesting to me)

Even better, it gets more meta. THe drow pantheon prop up Lolth so they can basically give her horns in all the party photos - She's very active in this little dark elf project and the rest of the pantheon uses her obsession and treats the underdark societies as their playground.

Lolth is the really micromanage-y teenage angst DM and all her players are jackasses.

Hopeless
2014-08-15, 05:40 AM
I figured the only reason that hasn't happened to Drow society is that there aren't enough futanari fans over at WOTC.

Yet...:smalltongue:

Has anyone heard of Half Dragon?:smallwink:

Couple of Anime episodes about the trials and tribulations of the offspring of a marriage between a male dragonslayer who was sent by the king to kill a dragon and ended up marrying the dragon instead...

The King meanwhile married a woman who turned out to be a slime so their child is a half slime who practiced dark magic until she could assume a fully human form but the man she's in love with an atypical bishonen knight and popular singer keeps running a foul of the Half Dragon whose also a fan and has ended up being poisoned through the efforts of the princess trying to get rid of her rival that backlashed because the power potion she sold her rival was immediately offered to the bishonen without knowing what it really was.

Oh before I forget (again...) the slime became a wizard and used a potion to become human, the King after his wife was dead was still angry at the dragonslayer not completing his task... well until he got a look at this wife and then wanted to kill the Dragonslayer so he could marry his wife!:smallsmile:

Just noting noone mentioned what if the Dragonslayer ended up prefering to marry the dragon as the best option for this scenario!:smallbiggrin:

Here I was wondering what if it was say a druid sorceress who assumed a dragon form to chase off the warlord's men from burning down her forest and then tired of all of the adventurers' sent to kill her simply turned the head of one of her slain foes into a dragon version before turning up with it?

horngeek
2014-08-15, 07:12 AM
I don't have to be a man to be dominated.

Tell that to the drow writers. :smalltongue:

Frozen_Feet
2014-08-15, 08:17 AM
Probably, although if they got rid of all the male drow, who would they have to dominate? :smallamused:


All non-drow species, as they are wont to anyway. I think the more likely explanation is simply that all those thousands of GP and XP that could be used for cursed girdles or permanen polymorphs are better used for capturing more slaves, expanding territory and all that jazz. Drow are not that monomanic about their misandry; drow males are still seen to have value and purpose. Provided they jump through all the necessary hoops and fulfill the slightest whims of their females.


Tell that to the drow writers. :smalltongue:

I assure you someone has already done that, and the word has reached the artists as well. :smalltongue::smallwink:

horngeek
2014-08-15, 08:19 AM
I assure you someone has already done that, and the word has reached the artists as well. :smalltongue::smallwink:

Wait, really?

*is suddenly interested* :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2014-08-15, 11:04 AM
There are a couple, though nothing big. LAdy Knight and Willowy Poet Boyfriend, or something. It's a text line saying they like the idea of reversing that, and a comic of the knight giving the poet a bra to wave from the stands whenshe wins the joust, and then laughing at him when he does it because, come on, that's dorky. Other one offs and things. But no like, webcomic or anything. Like most of tumblr, it is memetic and absent of substance. XD

Well that's dumb. It should've been a lacey, frilly man-bra. :smalltongue:


Y'all are forgetting the % chance of just removing gender entirely I think.

Meh.


I don't have to be a man to be dominated.

Yes, but if you're a Drow Female and you're not trying to reverse that situation you're broken to Lolth. And male Drow provide something more... willful than an Orc or Goblin to practice dominating and undermining to prepare them for taking surface elf slaves and turning the tables on their mothers, aunts, sisters, and the like, while also providing a challenge to hone their skills on the basically-auto-doomed-to-fail plots of Drow males so that there's more competition amongst the Drow females because they know what they're on about before they start trying to plot against one another with plots that are not auto-doomed-to-fail.


Even better, it gets more meta. THe drow pantheon prop up Lolth so they can basically give her horns in all the party photos - She's very active in this little dark elf project and the rest of the pantheon uses her obsession and treats the underdark societies as their playground.

Lolth is the really micromanage-y teenage angst DM and all her players are jackasses.

Hmm, maybe you're onto something there.

You forgot that Lolth is also a jackass in that equation. XD

toapat
2014-08-15, 02:30 PM
Y'all are forgetting the % chance of just removing gender entirely I think.

Not in 3rd. It's a generic drawback curse which doesn't cause the item to bind to the wearer. It also doesn't have a specific cost or enhance value so every "mundane" belt could have the effect

SiuiS
2014-08-16, 02:52 AM
Meh.


That's a good response.



Yes, but if you're a Drow Female and you're not trying to reverse that situation you're broken to Lolth. And male Drow provide something more... willful than an Orc or Goblin to practice dominating and undermining to prepare them for taking surface elf slaves and turning the tables on their mothers, aunts, sisters, and the like, while also providing a challenge to hone their skills on the basically-auto-doomed-to-fail plots of Drow males so that there's more competition amongst the Drow females because they know what they're on about before they start trying to plot against one another with plots that are not auto-doomed-to-fail.


Is this actually true, though? I mean how much of this is hard-coded and how much is just assumed social inertia? I remember the 1e mm specifying that dark elves exist, the women are priests and the men are Necromancers. I remember the initial set ups saying clerics get to higher levels if they're female, and that if you want to be at the top of the class you should follow your type (cleric/female, wizard/male), but that's not an issue unless Lloth is the singular driving force behind them all.

3rd may have codified it a bit more but it's not the only source and not the authoritative one. Although yeah, the 2e menzoberenxzanroanfhaofndgakahdmalhuaonomotopeioaw ordswordswords stuff (which I would argue is authoritative, sadly) probably drives home the angsty manhate.



Hmm, maybe you're onto something there.

You forgot that Lolth is also a jackass in that equation. XD

She's not a jackass, she just suffers for her art! Philistine.


Not in 3rd. It's a generic drawback curse which doesn't cause the item to bind to the wearer. It also doesn't have a specific cost or enhance value so every "mundane" belt could have the effect

That's nice. But third sort of neutered a lot of the mechanical flavor things were built on; why would I assume it was default for something that wasn't the trailblazer on a thing? Cursed items are a footnote in 3e, they actually have substance elsewhere.

Erik Vale
2014-08-16, 03:58 AM
I propose that the real question is: What happens when The Adventurer, a Titan, A Storm Giant, a Mind Flayer and a Dragon All show up to rescue the same princess at the same time, and are ALL of the female persuasion, and Heroically inclined, and, how do I say this delicately, interested?


Reading through this still but just wanted to ask: Aren't Mind Flayers Asexual?

hamishspence
2014-08-16, 04:23 AM
Normally, yes - but there might be exceptions. In the Starlight & Shadows trilogy (book 2), the mind flayer has a "feminine" mind-voice, when compared to other mind-flayers.

toapat
2014-08-16, 07:11 AM
That's nice. But third sort of neutered a lot of the mechanical flavor things were built on; why would I assume it was default for something that wasn't the trailblazer on a thing? Cursed items are a footnote in 3e, they actually have substance elsewhere.

Actually all the other notable cursed items are int third, it's only the belt of gender benders that isnt

Metahuman1
2014-08-16, 10:34 PM
Reading through this still but just wanted to ask: Aren't Mind Flayers Asexual?

Lords of Madness has a reference to a mind flayer specifically refereed to as male, and Book of Exalted Deeds has one listed that's specifically female. Thus, they have gender. Shockingly.

Erik Vale
2014-08-17, 12:48 AM
... Well there's no real need to completely overhaul the whole body and waste disposal still needs to be performed.

Coidzor
2014-08-17, 01:46 AM
... Well there's no real need to completely overhaul the whole body and waste disposal still needs to be performed.

Need some way to have creepy Illithid r34, after all.

The Glyphstone
2014-08-17, 01:53 AM
Lords of Madness has a reference to a mind flayer specifically refereed to as male, and Book of Exalted Deeds has one listed that's specifically female. Thus, they have gender. Shockingly.

Presumably they inherit the plumbing of their host body. I doubt the illithids themselves consider physical gender to be of any real relevance, so they'd still have a biological sex while being socially/psychologically asexual.

Erik Vale
2014-08-17, 05:59 AM
Need some way to have creepy Illithid r34, after all.

I thought that was what magic/psionics+head tentacles where for.

Amphetryon
2014-08-17, 06:06 AM
Presumably they inherit the plumbing of their host body. I doubt the illithids themselves consider physical gender to be of any real relevance, so they'd still have a biological sex while being socially/psychologically asexual.

Alternately, the writer(s) of the relevant passages were not up-to-speed on official canon. This would not be the only example of the writers creating flavor text that contradicts precedent, out of thin air.

Frozen_Feet
2014-08-17, 10:19 AM
Mindflayers reproduce asexually and they probably don't mentally identify with human genders. However, it easily possible for an asexual being to appear gendered to a human. A real-world example: a statue representing a girl. It's obviously of neither sex biologically and does not (cannot) identify as either; this doesn't prevent humans from considering it feminine. This happens because humans use themselves as a baseline to identify and assign gender traits; the statue may lack many, or even most traits of an actual human female, but still has enough traits remaining to appear feminine.

Metahuman1
2014-08-17, 11:43 AM
Yeah, but see, here's the thing, it doesn't matter if it's only suppose to be superficial, cause rule of funny and that's the joke.

The Glyphstone
2014-08-17, 12:58 PM
Yeah, but see, here's the thing, it doesn't matter if it's only suppose to be superficial, cause rule of funny and that's the joke.

I think the joke has dropped past -10 HP by now. We dealt it too much bludgeoning damage.

toapat
2014-08-17, 03:19 PM
Mindflayers reproduce asexually and they probably don't mentally identify with human genders. However, it easily possible for an asexual being to appear gendered to a human. A real-world example: a statue representing a girl. It's obviously of neither sex biologically and does not (cannot) identify as either; this doesn't prevent humans from considering it feminine. This happens because humans use themselves as a baseline to identify and assign gender traits; the statue may lack many, or even most traits of an actual human female, but still has enough traits remaining to appear feminine.

perhaps mindflayers inherit small shards of their hosts personality? having female anatomy shouldnt be unexpected because of their reproductive needs.

although Rule 34 for illithids would just look like 2 cuttlefish hugging.

Coidzor
2014-08-18, 03:03 AM
I thought that was what magic/psionics+head tentacles where for.

Those certainly help for one variety of it, yes. And generally figure into making it creepier than it would be if it were just monsters having sex.


although Rule 34 for illithids would just look like 2 cuttlefish hugging.

Regrettably, this is not the case. Or perhaps thankfully.

Mewtarthio
2014-08-18, 10:23 PM
Right. Well, that was certainly an interesting diversion. Back to less nightmarish topics, the important thing to remember is that the dragon-slayer is an adventurer, and therefore cares more about violently-acquired glory than political clout, land, or even sex. She probably only cares about the princess inasmuch as she serves as a tangible reward for an act of valor. Thus, I recommend the following:


Give her the princess anyway. In fact, throw in a small team of servants as well to see to the princess's needs (otherwise, the adventurer's liable to just lock her up in a display case and forget to feed her).
If the princess happens to be particuarly fond of any male servants, make sure that they're part of the package. The adventurer will be pleasantly surprised when she comes home one day and finds an entire family of trophies, all without any effort on her part!
As I said before, land is of little value to the adventurer, but a castle is another story. What it lacks in portability, it more than makes up in grandeur; indeed, a castle is likely the most effective shiny bauble a mortal can produce. Ideally, you'll give her a castle that's already occupied by someone you hate.
Lacking enemies, you can still give her some godforsaken keep on the edge of the wilderness, one plagued by constant barbarian raids and hopefully high levels of criminal (or, dare we hope, cultic) activity. It may not be as impressive, but it will keep her occupied for quite a while.
Whatever you do, don't give her a nice, peaceful property with no significant drawbacks. She will tear the place apart looking for secret dungeon entrances and, finding none, will contrive to arrange various unimportant details into a plot hook of her own devising. She will end up concluding that you're secretly the Dark Lord Reborn or something, and you will meet a horrible demise at her hands.

Jeff the Green
2014-08-19, 02:47 AM
GitP, the only site where historical plausibility of gay marriage, feudal politics, and futanari Drow getting it on with cuttlefish can meet in a single thread.

Also, to go back a few pages, no, YY is not viable in mammals. There are way too many genes on the X chromosome. Check out the list of X-linked disorders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-linked_recessive_inheritance). Then note that, best case scenario, a YY human would have all of them. Factor in the fact that a lot of those, like Hemophilia A and B, only result from down-regulation/inefficient products of a gene on the X-chromosome rather than it's complete nonfunction, and you have something that'd be lucky to make it to become a blastula.

horngeek
2014-08-19, 05:03 AM
Right. Well, that was certainly an interesting diversion. Back to less nightmarish topics, the important thing to remember is that the dragon-slayer is an adventurer, and therefore cares more about violently-acquired glory than political clout, land, or even sex. She probably only cares about the princess inasmuch as she serves as a tangible reward for an act of valor.

You're assuming a lot about how players motivate their characters, y'know. :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2014-08-19, 02:42 PM
GitP, the only site where historical plausibility of gay marriage, feudal politics, and futanari Drow getting it on with cuttlefish can meet in a single thread.

That. That is a good sig quote, right there. :smallamused:


Right. Well, that was certainly an interesting diversion. Back to less nightmarish topics, the important thing to remember is that the dragon-slayer is an adventurer, and therefore cares more about violently-acquired glory than political clout, land, or even sex. She probably only cares about the princess inasmuch as she serves as a tangible reward for an act of valor. Thus, I recommend the following:


Give her the princess anyway. In fact, throw in a small team of servants as well to see to the princess's needs (otherwise, the adventurer's liable to just lock her up in a display case and forget to feed her).
If the princess happens to be particuarly fond of any male servants, make sure that they're part of the package. The adventurer will be pleasantly surprised when she comes home one day and finds an entire family of trophies, all without any effort on her part!
As I said before, land is of little value to the adventurer, but a castle is another story. What it lacks in portability, it more than makes up in grandeur; indeed, a castle is likely the most effective shiny bauble a mortal can produce. Ideally, you'll give her a castle that's already occupied by someone you hate.
Lacking enemies, you can still give her some godforsaken keep on the edge of the wilderness, one plagued by constant barbarian raids and hopefully high levels of criminal (or, dare we hope, cultic) activity. It may not be as impressive, but it will keep her occupied for quite a while.
Whatever you do, don't give her a nice, peaceful property with no significant drawbacks. She will tear the place apart looking for secret dungeon entrances and, finding none, will contrive to arrange various unimportant details into a plot hook of her own devising. She will end up concluding that you're secretly the Dark Lord Reborn or something, and you will meet a horrible demise at her hands.



Certainly sounds fun. And accurate to at least some murderhobos.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-19, 05:01 PM
GitP, the only site where historical plausibility of gay marriage, feudal politics, and futanari Drow getting it on with cuttlefish can meet in a single thread.

[Saved for when I finally get around to making that extended sig it's about time I have.]

Jeff the Green
2014-08-20, 12:36 AM
Go right ahead. I'd have a blanket permission to sig me in my own sig if it weren't for the fact that it'd be kinda narcissistic.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-20, 03:24 PM
Go right ahead. I'd have a blanket permission to sig me in my own sig if it weren't for the fact that it'd be kinda narcissistic.

*Takes you at your word.:smalltongue:*

Chd
2014-08-22, 02:46 AM
This makes me incredibly uncomfortable in multiple ways, so congratulations on playing a convincing evil character.:smalleek:

Cheers for the encouragement! S/He was the token Evil Team-mate, and the DM and I just chucked in the 'reveal' at the last moment, making a huge 'WTF?' moment for the other players.

It was foreshadowed ahead of time with dialogue such as "You assume too much..." when a player was trying to cold-read my character, but the idea to remove a ring from the finger was last-minute.

The King was understandably upset, but when a Dark/Anti-Paladin can conjure his Unholy Rune-Encrusted Sword/Shield/Armor, it isn't a good idea to confront him directly.

SiuiS
2014-08-22, 03:07 AM
Actually all the other notable cursed items are int third, it's only the belt of gender benders that isnt

Like I said; footnote. They exist, they are glossed over, they are often forgotten. Most "cursed items" are just interesting and different regular items such as dust of sneezing and choking.


... Well there's no real need to completely overhaul the whole body and waste disposal still needs to be performed.

Do they? I thought they susbsisted on psychic energy?


Need some way to have creepy Illithid r34, after all.

The head of an ilithid is all you need for ilithid porn, really. They have tentacles and ears.

Everything else is just a tripod/like structure for positioning the porny parts XD


Presumably they inherit the plumbing of their host body. I doubt the illithids themselves consider physical gender to be of any real relevance, so they'd still have a biological sex while being socially/psychologically asexual.

asexual just means not interested in getting it on, though. And I'm sure they have a personality trend that's relatable to ended, they just don't have the same benchmarks that make them assign these trends to physical sex.


GitP, the only site where historical plausibility of gay marriage, feudal politics, and futanari Drow getting it on with cuttlefish can meet in a single thread.

Have you been to 4chan?

Erik Vale
2014-08-22, 03:23 AM
Do they? I thought they susbsisted on psychic energy?


Nope, they eat brains. At minimum 1 human equivilent/month.

russdm
2014-09-25, 07:12 PM
At minimum 1 human equivilent/month.

No, they don't. They have octopus mouths hidden in the tentacles like Gricks or the flying brain with tentacles or whatever it is called. Grick/Grell? There is no reason to have a human mouth.

The Glyphstone
2014-09-25, 07:21 PM
No, they don't. They have octopus mouths hidden in the tentacles like Gricks or the flying brain with tentacles or whatever it is called. Grick/Grell? There is no reason to have a human mouth.

Not sure if this is a joke or you just misread the previous post.

toapat
2014-09-25, 08:03 PM
No, they don't. They have octopus mouths hidden in the tentacles like Gricks or the flying brain with tentacles or whatever it is called. Grick/Grell? There is no reason to have a human mouth.

lookup Illithid Beefcake.

Actual art commissioned by Wizards where we can see an Illithid mouth. They do have teeth, not a beak

TheThan
2014-09-25, 09:57 PM
So what happens when the dragon hears of the reward and returns with the princess in tow looking for the reward.

which actually brings up the question of why dragons steal princesses anyway.

toapat
2014-09-25, 10:36 PM
So what happens when the dragon hears of the reward and returns with the princess in tow looking for the reward.

it gets employed as a foundry machine inbetween being king. except for White and Silver (who get employed by the Butcher shops), all the core true dragons have some sort of breath weapon that can be used in ore refining.

The princess becomes a half dragon factory for the royal line.

Chd
2014-09-25, 11:02 PM
So what happens when the dragon hears of the reward and returns with the princess in tow looking for the reward.

which actually brings up the question of why dragons steal princesses anyway.

Crypto-zoologists theorize that Dragons ate limestone (CaCO3) so that they can fly (HCl + CaCO3 = CO2 + CaCl2 + H2 + O2). Hydrogen Gas is lighter then air, allowing dragons to fly, but the corrosive effects meant that it needed to be vented (hence the fire-breathing).

When a Dragon Died, if the bones weren't washed, they disintegrate due to the high alkalinity. (The theory goes that they were a species related to crocodiles with every second rib sticking out to the side to create a 'fan' wing.)

Still, if dragons were as smart as they are in legends then the princess was taken as a hostage to ensure they weren't shot at, as well as an eventual meal.

I'd make the fantasy version a magic shape-shifter, and the princess be wanted for the same reason the party wants her: to bear their children.

SiuiS
2014-09-26, 02:38 AM
lookup Illithid Beefcake.

Actual art commissioned by Wizards where we can see an Illithid mouth. They do have teeth, not a beak

RP section, not 3.5 section. Wizards of the Coast is not the end-all be-all of mind flayers.


it gets employed as a foundry machine inbetween being king. except for White and Silver (who get employed by the Butcher shops), all the core true dragons have some sort of breath weapon that can be used in ore refining.

The princess becomes a half dragon factory for the royal line.

Wow, that's terrible.

Coidzor
2014-09-26, 02:49 AM
RP section, not 3.5 section. Wizards of the Coast is not the end-all be-all of mind flayers.

Wow, that's terrible.

No, but they do currently own the definitive voice on 'em if I recall correctly.

Yep. But efficient.

Frozen_Feet
2014-09-26, 03:07 AM
which actually brings up the question of why dragons steal princesses anyway.

In most of folklore I know, the dragon didn't exactly steal the princess. Either it was just kind of hanging around, and people were offering human sacrifices to it out of fear, or it was given to the princess as a pet when small, and then it became... not small. Another variation has some evil person place a dragon to guard a princess.

As dragons overlapped heavily with demons/ the Devil in folklore, I can think of a few cases where a dragon seduces a woman... in order to have her birth the Anti-Christ.

toapat
2014-09-26, 03:41 AM
Wow, that's terrible.

Right, Acid refinement is not for steel. But come on, dragons should at least be responsible enough to rule or help out their kingdom

Did we ever get an idea asto which Prime Material this hypothetical nation is on? In Krynn or Faerun i can see the royal family jumping at the opportunity for dragonblood. Not Eberron but thats mostly because the last time a half dragon was born a 400 year war broke out

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-09-26, 06:22 AM
Right, Acid refinement is not for steel. But come on, dragons should at least be responsible enough to rule or help out their kingdom

The kind of ruling where the phrase "hostile takeover" is an understatement.

At best the good dragons might assist the state in the event of an invasion that also threatens them, with the understanding that they won't be bothered again unless it's really, really important.

hamishspence
2014-09-26, 06:35 AM
In most of folklore I know, the dragon didn't exactly steal the princess. Either it was just kind of hanging around, and people were offering human sacrifices to it out of fear, or it was given to the princess as a pet when small, and then it became... not small. Another variation has some evil person place a dragon to guard a princess.

Modern fantasy often plays with these tropes. In Mercedes Lackey's Tales of the 500 Kingdoms (One Good Knight) the dragon is under a curse forcing it to ravage the kingdom (it does so as little as the curse will let it - damage rather than deaths) - and the princess and the dragon end up working together to defeat the causers of the cause.

In Patricia C. Wrede's Enchanted Forest Chronicles - the princess is tired of being expected to fill the standard expectations of a princess - so she runs away to the dragons, volunteering her services as a "dragon's princess".

Segev
2014-09-26, 07:54 AM
Actually, as the owners of the Intellectual Property that is the Mind Flayer, WotC has exclusive right to use them in any professional capacity (outside of parody and other Fair Use), and thus is the definitive voice in what they are. Much as J.K. Rowling is for Harry Potter, and Paramount Studios is for Star Trek, and Disney is for Star Wars and Marvel Comics characters.

thorgrim29
2014-09-26, 08:45 AM
Why wouldn't the adventurer (adventuress?) want one of the princes? At worst she gets power, respect, wealth, and someone to administer her land while she's out murderhoboing who's not ambitious enough to betray her and is presumably too scared of her to notice "his" kids don't look like him. At best they actually like eachother and have an effective partnership.

S@tanicoaldo
2014-09-26, 10:23 AM
Make her the duchess and be done with it.

SiuiS
2014-09-26, 03:00 PM
In most of folklore I know, the dragon didn't exactly steal the princess. Either it was just kind of hanging around, and people were offering human sacrifices to it out of fear, or it was given to the princess as a pet when small, and then it became... not small. Another variation has some evil person place a dragon to guard a princess.

As dragons overlapped heavily with demons/ the Devil in folklore, I can think of a few cases where a dragon seduces a woman... in order to have her birth the Anti-Christ.

Neat. Where would one go to find academic stuff on this?


Right, Acid refinement is not for steel. But come on, dragons should at least be responsible enough to rule or help out their kingdom

Did we ever get an idea asto which Prime Material this hypothetical nation is on? In Krynn or Faerun i can see the royal family jumping at the opportunity for dragonblood. Not Eberron but thats mostly because the last time a half dragon was born a 400 year war broke out

I was more concerned with the lack of consent on part of the princess before being turned into a broodmare for the good of the kingdom.


Actually, as the owners of the Intellectual Property that is the Mind Flayer, WotC has exclusive right to use them in any professional capacity (outside of parody and other Fair Use), and thus is the definitive voice in what they are. Much as J.K. Rowling is for Harry Potter, and Paramount Studios is for Star Trek, and Disney is for Star Wars and Marvel Comics characters.

No, because other authoritative works continue to exist in equal, let's call it 'canonicity', when specifically speaking in a forum where the one company's specific brand is not held as the base rubric.

hamishspence
2014-09-26, 03:08 PM
No, because other authoritative works continue to exist in equal, let's call it 'canonicity', when specifically speaking in a forum where the one company's specific brand is not held as the base rubric.

Didn't the "Lamprey Mouth vs Beaked Mouth" variance occur as early as 2e - with one being more magical, and the other being more psionic?

JusticeZero
2014-09-26, 03:14 PM
I'd presume that dragons get into conflicts with kings for the same reasons kings get in conflicts with other kings. Resources and territory. I'd assume there's just not enough ___ in the kingdom to keep the dragon and the king supplied, and the kingdom is looking to build up and needs the resources that te dragon wants for an equally justifiable reason. Dragons don't generally hold territory as strictly as humans do. Holding hostages is a reasonable way to hold control, though. "The Princess is comfortable in my lair, sipping fine wines. She will be fine, so long as you don't think about expanding your logging operations into Westmaarkh."

Sith_Happens
2014-09-26, 04:00 PM
I was more concerned with the lack of consent on part of the princess before being turned into a broodmare for the good of the kingdom.

Welcome to how arranged marriages work. That's kind of exactly why they've been slowly going out of style around the world in real life.

The Glyphstone
2014-09-26, 04:45 PM
Has anyone noticed the same thing I did, that this entire tangent about Mind Flayer mouthparts is based on a misread non-typo?



Nope, they eat brains. At minimum 1 human equivilent/month.



No, they don't. They have octopus mouths hidden in the tentacles like Gricks or the flying brain with tentacles or whatever it is called. Grick/Grell? There is no reason to have a human mouth.

The Random NPC
2014-09-26, 04:49 PM
Has anyone noticed the same thing I did, that this entire tangent about Mind Flayer mouthparts is based on a misread non-typo?

I did!

Random words to fill the quota.

Frozen_Feet
2014-09-29, 09:23 AM
Welcome to how arranged marriages work. That's kind of exactly why they've been slowly going out of style around the world in real life.

Not quite right. There have been multiple systems of arranged marriage, and in plenty of them the bride-to-be had a say. The actual objection to them had less to do with consent, and more to do with what were the reasons behind marriage. Starting with late medieval period and rise of chivalry but becoming popular in practice only within last 200 years in Europe and other "Western" countries, was the idea that marriage is primarily a romantic affair. In other words: that marriage should be about love, not economics, inheritance or any other thing arranged marriages typically were about.

In some countries (such as Japan) where arranged marriages were still a thing in recent history (or are still a thing), marrying out of love can be considered light-hearted, naive, irresponsible and even selfish. If you want to understand why, here's a paraphrased argument:

In one tradition, the family of the bride chooses candidates for husband from amongst those families they have a history with, based on how well-off they are financially, how well the two families have gotten along historically, how well-supported the potential children would be etc.

In the second tradition, the bride gets together with whomever because WUV.