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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class The Tombsinger PrC PEACH



Raunchel
2014-08-08, 07:16 AM
Hello everyone. This here is my first attempt at a homebrew prestige class and it still is work in progress. The basic idea is a bard who focuses on performing for and with the undead. And is a decent necromancer by the side. I hope that I have made something reasonable but please tell me where I messed up. I still need to think of a capstone and a ninth level ability. I would be most grateful for any suggestions.

Tombsinger

https://img00.deviantart.net/cf95/i/2004/281/c/5/_bride_of_lucifer__by_noah_kh.jpg

Entry Requirements
Alignment: Any non-good.
Feats: Requiem.
Skills: Perform (Any) 8 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 5 ranks.
Spellcasting: Being capable of casting second level arcane spells.
Spells: Bardic Music Ability.

Hit Die: D6.


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Spellcasting


1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
Music of the Tomb, Desecrating Tune
+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class


2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
The Soulís Inspiration, Perform Bonus, Gravesong
+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class


3rd
+1
+1
+1
+3
Improved Desecrating Tune
+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class


4th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Risen Orchestra
+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class


5th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Bonus Feat
+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class


6th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Necromantic Prowess
+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class


7th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Bonus Feat, Greater Desecrating Tune
+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class


8th
+4
+2
+2
+6
Danse Macabre
+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class


9th
+4
+3
+3
+6
Necromantic Prowess
+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class


10th
+5
+3
+3
+7
Bonus Feat, Symphony of the Dead
+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class



Skills (6 + Int per level): Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise(Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

CLASS FEATURES

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Tombsingers gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Spells Per Day/Spells Known: When a new Tombsinger level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which she could cast 2nd-level spells before she added the prestige class level. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which she could cast 2nd-level spells before she became a Tombsinger, she must decide to which class she adds each level of Tombsinger for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Bardic Music: Tombsinger levels stack with Bard levels for the purpose of determining the Tombsingerís daily uses of her bardic music abilities and the value of the bonus granted by inspire courage (if the Tombsinger has that bardic music ability). Tombsinger levels however do not count as Bard levels for the purpose of learning new Bardic Music effects. For example, a 10th-level Bard/4th-level Tombsinger could use bardic music fourteen times per day, and her inspire courage ability would grant a +3 morale bonus on the appropriate rolls.

Music of the Tomb: At first level a Tombsinger adds a set of spells to her Bard spell list, as detailed below. She can learn these spells as any other spell on the Bard spell list.
Level 1: Summon Undead I, Inflict Light Wounds, Reaving Aura
Level 2: Summon Undead II, Animate Dead, Command Undead, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Death Knell, Shroud of Undeath
Level 3: Summon Undead III, Cure Critical Wounds, Speak With Dead
Level 4: Summon Undead IV, Consumptive Field, Inflict Critical Wounds, Animate Legion, Consumptive Field, Negative Energy Aura,
Level 5: Summon Undead V, Mass Inflict Light Wounds
Level 6: Create Undead, Mass Inflict Moderate Wounds, Awaken Undead
She however loses access to the spells listed below.
Level 1: Cure Light Wounds, Summon Monster I
Level 2: Cure Moderate Wounds, Summon Elysian Thrush, Summon Monster II
Level 3: Summon Monster III, Cure Serious Wounds
Level 4: Summon Monster IV, Cure Critical Wounds, Healing Spirit
Level 5: Summon Monster V, Mass Cure Light Wounds
Level 6: Summon Monster VI, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds

Desecrating Tune (Su): At first level a Tombsinger gains the ability to project an aura of desecration while using Bardic Music. This aura extends for five feet per Tombsinger level. It provides the same benefits as a Desecrate spell and lasts as long as the effect of the Bardic Music. The bonus to hit points is gained by any undead created by the Tombsinger, including those animated through Animate Dead, Symophony of the Dead or Create Undead and those summoned through Summon Undead.

The Soulís Inspiration (Su): At second level the Tombsingerís music gains such deep effects on the souls of the dead that any undead created through the Animate Dead spell gain a bonus to their charisma equal to the Tombsingerís charisma modifier and ranks in a suitable perform skill equal to their hit dice plus 3. They can use their perform skill as a free action to Aid Another once per turn. However Undead who benefit from this cannot gain bonuses to their perform skill, or perform checks, from any source other than the Tombsinger and/or her class abilities.

Perform Bonus (Ex): At second level a Tombsinger gains a bonus to any perform checks she makes equal to her Tombsinger level.

Gravesong (Su): At second level a Tombsinger may expend a use of Bardic Music to make a Rebuke Check. This is identical to an Evil Cleric's Rebuke Undead ability, except that it uses (Tombsinger level + Bard level) to determine how powerful an Undead you can affect.

Improved Desecrating Tune (Su): At third level the strength of a Tombsingerís Desecrating Tune increases and the area is counted as if it contains an altar to the Tombsingerís deity or higher power, doubling the usual modifiers.

Risen Orchestra (Ex): At fourth level undead created by the Tombsinger may attempt to Bolster the Tombsingers own Bardic music, or Attempt to play such music themselves. They may even play one Music whilst the Tombsinger plays another, or even have multiple undead play multiple musics. Undead playing Bardic Music may be bolstered in the same way as the Tombsinger herself, though each undead may only bolster one performer.

Attempting to use a particular piece of Bardic music requires the Undead succeed on a Perfom check with a DC of 10 + the Minimum number of Perform ranks required to use the music, they may only ever use a bardic music that the Tombsinger is capable of playing. At most three undead may use bardic music like this. Playing bardic music uses up one of the Tombsinger's daily uses of bardic music. Attempting to Bolster requires a DC 10 Perform Check.

Bolstering requires that the Undead be within 60Ft of the target wishing to be Bolstered and has the following effects depending on the music being bolstered, all effects are cumulative:

Countersong: +2 bonus to the final check result.

Fascinate: Increases the maximum number of effect-able targets by 1.

Inspire Courage: All Bonuses increase by +1.

Inspire Competence: Bonus increases by +2 but cannot be used to improve Perform Checks.

Inspire Greatness: Grants an additional +1 bonus HD.

Song of Freedom: +2 Bonus to the Caster Level check.

Inspire Heroics: +1 increase to both Bonuses.

Desecrating Tune: +1 HP per HD for all Undead in the aura, (newly raised or existing), this is not multiplied like the Tombsingerís desecrating tune is when she increases in level and these extra hit points are temporary, disappearing when the music stops.

Bonus feat: At fifth, seventh and tenth level the Tombsinger gains Corpsecrafter, Necromantic presence, Tomb-tainted soul, Song of the Dead or Lichloved or one of the feats that they are a prerequisite for as a bonus feat.

Necromantic Prowess (Ex): At sixth level, a Tombsinger gains unsurpassed power over death. When she casts a necromancy spell, or uses a spell-like ability that mimics a necromancy spell, her effective caster level increases. The bonus is +1 at sixth level and +2 at ninth level. She also gets this bonus to any rebuking tests that she makes.

Greater Desecrating Tune (Su): At seventh level the strength of a Tombsingerís Desecrating tune increases even further and all the modifiers are tripled instead of doubled.

Danse Macabre (Su): At eighth level all the undead that are under the influence of the Tombsinger's Bardic music act as if affected by the Haste spell.

Symphony of the Dead (Su): At tenth level the Tombsinger's music is so invigorating to the dead that any corpse that is touched by it rises to join in a cursed symphony. This ability lets the Tombsinger spend a daily use of bardic music to animate any dead bodies in the area of her desecrating tune as a skeleton or zombie(as appropriate) up to a total HD limit equal to her bonus on a perform skill. This bonus may be increased by Aid Another checks of the undead that she has already created. These new undead remain for as long as the Tombsinger keeps performing.

10-17-2014: Added Song of the Dead to the list of potential bonus spells.

sajro
2014-08-08, 08:36 AM
Sounds interesting I have a single thing, some minor thing you might want to look at. :)


Spells Per Day/Spells Known: When a new Tombsinger level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if whe had also gained a level in the Bard class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a Bard would have gained.

What if someone multiclassed fx. with sorcerer to gain arcane spells from there? Then is it still the bard spell-casting that increases or is he allowed to choose?

Raunchel
2014-08-08, 08:38 AM
Sounds interesting I have a single thing, some minor thing you might want to look at. :)



What if someone multiclassed fx. with sorcerer to gain arcane spells from there? Then is it still the bard spell-casting that increases or is he allowed to choose?

I have to admit that I didn't really think about that. I think that I should alter it though, so a multiclassed character can choose which one to advance.

sajro
2014-08-08, 08:40 AM
Yeah It is probably the better option to make it less limiting. :)
But dont worry about not thinking things through it is difficult to think of all possibilities. ;)

Dyhmas
2014-08-08, 09:19 AM
First of all, great class! Both fluffwise and crunchwise. It seems solid and flavorful, at least to me. Some nitpicks/suggestion/worries follow:

-Bardic Music: I understand that not allowing the Tombsinger to acquire new musics is a good move, balance-wise, however, I feel this is a bit wasted, as you can add trough this class access to different (and more thematic) bard songs , perhaps some that may affect only undead or that affect undead in a positive way while affcting the living in a negative, at the same time? (negative energy, feat effects, that sutff...) Just a thought...

-Chorus of the Dead/Risen Orchestra: This idea alone made the class great, IMO. Very flavorfull, as I imagine you being accompanied by one or more skeletons with violins and other such instrument...very eery also. However, have you actually run the numbers to check how often these minions would be capable of achieving a result in Perform equal to the Tombsinger? I may be missing something, but it seems to me that they'd have a much lower score in Perform...

-Danse Macabre: atlough usefull, this ability seems really lacking...I mean, you'd be a lvl14 character by then, making that +2 bonus not account for much against the foes you're fighting by then. Perhaps turn that into a scaling feature that allows you to give bonuses to diferent atributes? As in, you get +2 to put in a attribute of your choosing at lvl 3, 6 and 9, perhaps not allowing them to stack on a same attribute? Also, this ability has such a great name to it that giving a +2 in Dex seems soooo little...how about allowing the Tombsinger to make a Perform roll as an immediate action, once per round, and switch that for the AC or attack or whatever of his minions? Imagine them moving to his tune...how about that?

-Capstone: you need one, asap. This class has a lot of potential and you can make an ability that focus either on the Tombsinger or his minions. Turning into an undead (only getting the good stuff) seems to be a pretty popular capstone in undead-themed PrCs...I'm sure you can think of something way better, tho.

Hope these help a little. Subscribed and looking forward to making a villain with this class in my campaign.
Carry on!

-Dyhmas

Raunchel
2014-08-08, 09:59 AM
First of all, great class! Both fluffwise and crunchwise. It seems solid and flavorful, at least to me. Some nitpicks/suggestion/worries follow:

First of all, thank you for reading through all of it. I have to admit that I was quite afraid of making a horribly overpowered class.


-Bardic Music: I understand that not allowing the Tombsinger to acquire new musics is a good move, balance-wise, however, I feel this is a bit wasted, as you can add trough this class access to different (and more thematic) bard songs , perhaps some that may affect only undead or that affect undead in a positive way while affcting the living in a negative, at the same time? (negative energy, feat effects, that sutff...) Just a thought...

That sounds like a good idea, I will try to think up a few abilities.


-Chorus of the Dead/Risen Orchestra: This idea alone made the class great, IMO. Very flavorfull, as I imagine you being accompanied by one or more skeletons with violins and other such instrument...very eery also. However, have you actually run the numbers to check how often these minions would be capable of achieving a result in Perform equal to the Tombsinger? I may be missing something, but it seems to me that they'd have a much lower score in Perform...

I havenít run the numbers yet, but I just realized that I was actually giving the Tombsinger a bonus on perform, making it even harder to make the check for the undead. I was counting on them aiding one another to make the check, but letís so how that works.

A level 5 bard/level 5 Tombsinger can control up to 40 HD of undead. Letís assume that they are divided as follows: 1 of 10HD, 2 of 8 HD, 2 of 6 HD and another 2 of 1 HD. Our Bard started with a cha of 17, upgraded it to 18 and got a cloak of charisma for a total charisma bonus of +5. This gives the skeletons a charisma score of 6, which makes for a -2 modifier. Added to this the lead performer(the one with 10 HD) has 10 ranks in perform, giving +8. The two 8 HD ones have +6, so each of them has a 85% chance to succeed on the aid another test. The 6 HD ones have +4, giving a 75% chance to succeed on the test, the 1 HD ones have a -1, giving a 50% chance to succeed on the test. On average they will give the lead performer around +8 on his check. This lead performer already has a +8, so reaches +16. The Tombsinger however will have 13 ranks in perform, +5 for Tombsinger levels, +5 from charisma and probably a masterwork instrument for another +2. This gives a total modifier of +25.

Wow, a difference of nine, in the favour of our Tombsinger. From the undead side the check wonít be much higher, but for the Tombsinger it can easily be even higher, in face, so high that it becomes almost impossible for this ability to work. Thanks a lot for pointing it out, it could have been a major issue for these abilities. I will try to think of another balancing mechanism, and preferably one that doesnít punish the Tombsinger for boosting the perform skill.


-Danse Macabre: atlough usefull, this ability seems really lacking...I mean, you'd be a lvl14 character by then, making that +2 bonus not account for much against the foes you're fighting by then. Perhaps turn that into a scaling feature that allows you to give bonuses to diferent atributes? As in, you get +2 to put in a attribute of your choosing at lvl 3, 6 and 9, perhaps not allowing them to stack on a same attribute? Also, this ability has such a great name to it that giving a +2 in Dex seems soooo little...how about allowing the Tombsinger to make a Perform roll as an immediate action, once per round, and switch that for the AC or attack or whatever of his minions? Imagine them moving to his tune...how about that?
That sounds like a very nice ability, but Iím afraid that letting a perform check do that would be a bit overpowering, skill checks are quite easy to boost, and Iím afraid that such an ability could be quite powerful for that reason. But then again, I will have to run the numbers, and it would only affect one of the undead.
The idea sbout spreading out several bonuses also sounds really nice. I want this ability to make them faster, so maybe giving a dodge bonus to ac, a bonus to attack rolls or bonuses to saves?


-Capstone: you need one, asap. This class has a lot of potential and you can make an ability that focus either on the Tombsinger or his minions. Turning into an undead (only getting the good stuff) seems to be a pretty popular capstone in undead-themed PrCs...I'm sure you can think of something way better, tho.

I have to admit that I want to avoid the usual becoming undead capstone, there are plenty of ways to achieve that already and to be honest I want to include something a bit more musical.

Hope these help a little. Subscribed and looking forward to making a villain with this class in my campaign.
Carry on!

-Dyhmas
Your help is very valuable, and I want to thank you again for taking the time to comment.

Dyhmas
2014-08-08, 10:13 AM
Wow, a difference of nine, in the favour of our Tombsinger. From the undead side the check wonít be much higher, but for the Tombsinger it can easily be even higher, in face, so high that it becomes almost impossible for this ability to work. Thanks a lot for pointing it out, it could have been a major issue for these abilities. I will try to think of another balancing mechanism, and preferably one that doesnít punish the Tombsinger for boosting the perform skill.
Hmm, considering the minions wouldn't have another use for the Perform skill other than using it with these abilities, why not allow them to use the Tombsingers Perform score, instead of giving them one of their own?



That sounds like a very nice ability, but Iím afraid that letting a perform check do that would be a bit overpowering, skill checks are quite easy to boost, and Iím afraid that such an ability could be quite powerful for that reason. But then again, I will have to run the numbers, and it would only affect one of the undead. That COULD be powerfull, yes, but, considering how squishy some of these minions can be, it is far from broken. You could, however, limit it by uses (/per encounter) for example, and having it target only one minion per time and not more than one per round...that would stop the player from abusing it, really. Specially so if the player is fighting a large number of foes...since he can only protect his minions from one attack in this manner.


The idea sbout spreading out several bonuses also sounds really nice. I want this ability to make them faster, so maybe giving a dodge bonus to ac, a bonus to attack rolls or bonuses to saves?
How about allowing the Tombsinger to pick from a list of stackable bonuses as he levels? Like "+1 to attack", "+2 to damage", "+1 to AC", +1 to one save", "+10ft of movement" and so on...you can either make those choices permanent or semi-permanent (allow him to choose new ones every day, perhaps?). Something like, picking one every two levels would be nice, IMO.



I have to admit that I want to avoid the usual becoming undead capstone, there are plenty of ways to achieve that already and to be honest I want to include something a bit more musical.
You're more than right. I just commented it as i couldn't think of anything good but I still felt the urge to point out how good a capstone could be to this class.
I fact, as I type this, I imagine some sort of "ultimate" bardic music...something like turning your minions into an orchestra, allowing you to boost the range/effect/etc of a bardic music depending on the number of minions you have to perform with. You'd basically have to forego your minions but you could get a pretty big boost to your allies (or to other NPCs as well, depending on the ammount of range increase you could get with this) wich could turn the tides of a battle.

T'was a pleasure finding your class. I really liked it, keep up with it!

-Dyhmas.

Raunchel
2014-08-10, 03:04 PM
I have made some minor edits(like removing the need for undead to pass perform checks of a nearly impossible difficulty to use these abilities) and have also altered Danse Macabre and added in a capstone. I really hope that I didn't think up anything overpowered. Tonight I will be thinking about the last few abilities and of course, I will be hoping for more comments and criticism.

Carl
2014-08-10, 06:42 PM
I'm not sure whats more awesome, the concept, the class, or the picture.

My biggest concern is that the undead have very little to do with their perform skill.

Raunchel
2014-08-11, 05:28 AM
The picture is famous for a reason, and I couldn't help myself when taking it. I have been thinking about abilities to base on the performance of the undead, and especially want them to help with the music of the Tombsinger in some way. I wrote something out but I'm not sure at where I should set the thresholds and where to place it into the class. And of course if it isn't completely overpowered.

Unliving Sonata: At XXXXX level the undead that a Tombsinger controls may make a perform check(one of them makes the check, the others roll a DC 10 perform test, and if they succeed, they add +2 to the final test). The result of this test is compared to the table below, increasing the bonus granted by inspire courage used by the Tombsinger by the indicated amount.


Perform check result
Effect


15
+1


20
+2


30
+3


40
+4


55
+5


70
+6

Carl
2014-08-11, 09:41 AM
The picture is famous for a reason, and I couldn't help myself when taking it.

Where's it from, i honestly don't recognize it. (I'm probably committing an enormous Faux Pas of epic proportions here but it's true).


As for the idea, it's not bad but again we come back to ab-usability via boosting the numbers. Also ideally it would be nice if we could get it to work better with lots of undead as you've absolutely setup the class to be quite spammy in that regard.

Hmmm.

I'd start by adding the following to Soul's Inspiration:

However Undead who benefit from this cannot gain bonus's to their perform skill, or perform check's, from any source other than the Tombsinger and/or her class abilities.


I'd then add something like this:

Unliving Orchestra: Undead created by the Tombsinger may attempt to Bolster the Tombsingers own Bardic music, or Attempt to play such music themselves. They may even play one Music whilst the Tombsinger plays another, or even have multiple undead play multiple musics. Undead playing Bardic Music may be bolstered in the same way as the Tombsinger herself, though each undead may only bolster one player.

Attempting to Use a particular piece of Bardic music requires the Undead succeed on a Perfom check with a DC of 10 + the Minimum number of Perform ranks required to use the music. Attempting to Bolster requires a DC 10 Perform Check.

Bolstering requires that the Undead be within 60Ft of the target wishing to be Bolstered and has the following effects depending on the music being bolstered, all effects are cumulative:

Countersong: +2 bonus to the final check result.

Fascinate: Increases the maximum number of effect-able targets by 1.

Inspire Courage: All Bonuses increase by +1.

Inspire Competence: Bonus increases by +2 but cannot be used to improve Perform Checks.

Inspire Greatness: Grants an additional +1 bonus HD.

Song of Freedom: +2 Bonus to the Caster Level check.

Inspire Heroics: +1 increase to both Bonuses.

Desecrating Tune: +1 HP's per HD for all Undead in the aura, (newly raised or existing), this is not multiplied however.




This lets them all contribute and at the same time by allowing them to ape her Music she can actually use spells to bring in undead even whilst playing, (otherwise her desecrating music is nigh useless), and generally lead her undead in a huge song and dance number. I'd also add a note to desecrating tune that the effect grants bonus HP's to undead created via the Create Undead and Summon Undead spells as well as the capstone as currently it has no effects on those. Similar thing for Souls Inspiration.

Raunchel
2014-08-12, 09:16 AM
Where's it from, i honestly don't recognize it. (I'm probably committing an enormous Faux Pas of epic proportions here but it's true).


As for the idea, it's not bad but again we come back to ab-usability via boosting the numbers. Also ideally it would be nice if we could get it to work better with lots of undead as you've absolutely setup the class to be quite spammy in that regard.

Hmmm.

I'd start by adding the following to Soul's Inspiration:

However Undead who benefit from this cannot gain bonus's to their perform skill, or perform check's, from any source other than the Tombsinger and/or her class abilities.


I'd then add something like this:

Unliving Orchestra: Undead created by the Tombsinger may attempt to Bolster the Tombsingers own Bardic music, or Attempt to play such music themselves. They may even play one Music whilst the Tombsinger plays another, or even have multiple undead play multiple musics. Undead playing Bardic Music may be bolstered in the same way as the Tombsinger herself, though each undead may only bolster one player.

Attempting to Use a particular piece of Bardic music requires the Undead succeed on a Perfom check with a DC of 10 + the Minimum number of Perform ranks required to use the music. Attempting to Bolster requires a DC 10 Perform Check.

Bolstering requires that the Undead be within 60Ft of the target wishing to be Bolstered and has the following effects depending on the music being bolstered, all effects are cumulative:

Countersong: +2 bonus to the final check result.

Fascinate: Increases the maximum number of effect-able targets by 1.

Inspire Courage: All Bonuses increase by +1.

Inspire Competence: Bonus increases by +2 but cannot be used to improve Perform Checks.

Inspire Greatness: Grants an additional +1 bonus HD.

Song of Freedom: +2 Bonus to the Caster Level check.

Inspire Heroics: +1 increase to both Bonuses.

Desecrating Tune: +1 HP's per HD for all Undead in the aura, (newly raised or existing), this is not multiplied however.




This lets them all contribute and at the same time by allowing them to ape her Music she can actually use spells to bring in undead even whilst playing, (otherwise her desecrating music is nigh useless), and generally lead her undead in a huge song and dance number. I'd also add a note to desecrating tune that the effect grants bonus HP's to undead created via the Create Undead and Summon Undead spells as well as the capstone as currently it has no effects on those. Similar thing for Souls Inspiration.

That looks like a very good idea, I will add it in at once.

Diachronos
2014-08-12, 09:31 AM
This beats the tar out of Dirge Singer from Libris Mortis.

Maybe give them Requiem (affect undead with bardic music) as a bonus feat, and the ability to use mind-affecting spells onundead?

Raunchel
2014-08-12, 10:42 AM
This beats the tar out of Dirge Singer from Libris Mortis.

Maybe give them Requiem (affect undead with bardic music) as a bonus feat, and the ability to use mind-affecting spells onundead?

I had seen the Dirgesinger a few times but to be honest I never really liked the design, it has some special songs, but nothing that really shouts necromantic bard at me.


Requiem is one of the prerequisites already, but the ability to use mind-affecting spells on undead would certainly fit. Now I just have to look for the right spot.

Diachronos
2014-08-12, 10:52 AM
Requiem is one of the prerequisites already

Wow, how did I miss that?

The only real complaint I have with the design is the mandatory Evil alignment. Considering that quite a few of 3.5's necromancy-focused classes only force you to be non-good and the fact that there's really not that much that screams "evil necromancer" with this class' abilities, I think Non-Good is a reasonable alignment restriction.

Raunchel
2014-08-12, 10:53 AM
Wow, how did I miss that?

The only real complaint I have with the design is the mandatory Evil alignment. Considering that quite a few of 3.5's necromancy-focused classes only force you to be non-good and the fact that there's really not that much that screams "evil necromancer" with this class' abilities, I think Non-Good is a reasonable alignment restriction.

I think that you're right, it's just that some of the necromancy spells have the Evil tag. I'll edit that.

By the way, does anyone have suggestions on the prerequisites? Is there something that's missing there?

Diachronos
2014-08-12, 11:12 AM
By the way, does anyone have suggestions on the prerequisites? Is there something that's missing there?

The only things I can think of as prerequisites would require you to multiclass, so I think the current prereqs are good enough.

Dyhmas
2014-08-13, 07:25 AM
First of all, I'm seriously considering unsubscribing to this thread...only so I can subscribe again. There, I said it.
I'm already brainstorming a villain for my campaign using this class. At first he was going to be a Joker-esque kind of enemy, an evil bard and such, but now I'm changing the whole idea to fit an undead controlling bard...I'm even thinking of turning his boss, the main villain, into a lich cause...well...liches are cool. :smallbiggrin:

On to the class:

-Danse Macabre: MUCH better. At the point where you'd get this ability you would already be running 24/7 with hasted minions so it's not really broken. In fact, it only lessens the micro managing of your minions while saving up some resources...wich I'm all up for!

-Risen Orchestra: I like it...however, I'm not sure it does what I think it does. The way it is worded now, I understand that the minions are capable of performing bardic music on their own and also improve the bardic music of the Tombsinger...or is it only the latter? I'm led to believe that they can only improve the bard's music but it could work the other way around, I guess.

-Simphony of the Dead: Oh baby...oooooh baby. That's leaps and bounds better than giving undead traits and such. This ability both sounds cool and looks cool. Firstly, this is the kind of capstone you really look forward to...like, as you progress trough the class you can't stop thinking "I'm getting there!". Secondly, it's good. It's really really good. Almost broken, depending on the player, but then again, depending on the player, all of D&D can be broken, right? I got a question tho, since my undead crunch is rusty: when you turn a creature into an undead, does it keep any extraordinary, super natural or spell-like abilities? If so this is crazy good...if not, it's just good, really. Regardless, don't change it...and sue anyone who tries to! :smalltongue:

No idea what else you can add to this class. It looks solid and even the dead levels don't seem to bother me much, since you get extra spellcasting (wich can be better in itself than any class ability, at times).
If I played this class, I'm pretty sure I'd roll a Diablo 2 style necromancer, riding on a skeletal horse and bolstering my minions with my tunes while they crush my foes...and terrify my allies. :smallcool:

In fact...that's what I'll play next weekend, when my group'll get together to a quick play (we do them from time to time, so the DM can play and someone can DM and so we can try new builds...just a quick session, it's good fun). I'll let you know how it went.

Brew on!

-Dyhmas

Carl
2014-08-13, 09:40 AM
-Risen Orchestra: I like it...however, I'm not sure it does what I think it does. The way it is worded now, I understand that the minions are capable of performing bardic music on their own and also improve the bardic music of the Tombsinger...or is it only the latter? I'm led to believe that they can only improve the bard's music but it could work the other way around, I guess.

It's both, and some can play bardic music while others improve, they could even split the improve amongst undead and the tombsinger.

~Corvus~
2014-08-13, 12:39 PM
Good to see some awesome creativity! So cool concept.

I think that you're right, it's just that some of the necromancy spells have the Evil tag. I'll edit that.

By the way, does anyone have suggestions on the prerequisites? Is there something that's missing there?

You can make the spells with evil descriptors not progress your evil. Say it's part of your wonderful musical charm.

Perhaps not perform (dance) but make it a musical instrument.

Raunchel
2014-08-14, 10:06 AM
Thank you for all the compliments!

Dyhmas: I still want to fill up the dead levels, for some reason those have always seemed to be a little dull to me. But I might just be crazy like that.

- Symphony of the Dead: Zombies and Skeletons don't retain spell-like abilities, so it should be reasonably safe. Of course, I'm sure that there are ways around those restrictions, but I'm not much of a rules-genius so I wouldn't know them.

- Danse Macabre: I decided to go for haste because it can be used to represent the undead being made faster by the power of music.

- Risen Orchestra: It is supposed to be that they can indeed perform their own musics and can bolster each other or the Tombsinger. Of course, they can also use aid another to help out the ones that try to play a bardic music. I will add in a line that says that they can only ever play music that the Tombsinger is capable of playing.

~Corvus~: I won't go around distinguising between various subskills of perform. I don't want to stop anyone from making a comedy troupe of the undead for instance. Which incidentally is an idea that I really should try one day.

For the alignment I'm not sure, I think that that should really depend on the group, some groups see any kind of raising the dead as evil, and others are far more lenient in that regard.

Does anyone happen to have any suggestions with which I could fill the dead levels?

Dyhmas
2014-08-14, 01:02 PM
Well, considering the amount of abilities this class already has, I think that those dead levels should be filled with passives. Perhaps something to bolster Necromancy spells or even more of them? I mean, +1 to caster level (to a total of +2 with both dead levels) for necromancy spells can be pretty handy.

Raunchel
2014-08-15, 07:45 AM
Well, considering the amount of abilities this class already has, I think that those dead levels should be filled with passives. Perhaps something to bolster Necromancy spells or even more of them? I mean, +1 to caster level (to a total of +2 with both dead levels) for necromancy spells can be pretty handy.

Thanks for the suggestion. I included it in class, which should now be reasonably complete.

Carl
2014-08-15, 07:52 AM
Just a sudden thought because i didn't include it in my draft of it. You should probably specify that undead using bardic music expend her uses just as she would, otherwise you'd see tombsingers using undead only for music.

Also found the artist's deviant art which had this cool little quote to go with the picture that i thought i'd share:


a daughter of the nights and chaos,
into the abyss of ebony
she was robbed.

awaking, she saw charon stood
asking in no words, she held in her silence
they crossed the acheron,
where beyond, lucifer awaited.


playing her final symphony
to hell, the seraphim were called

Raunchel
2014-08-15, 07:58 AM
Just a sudden thought because i didn't include it in my draft of it. You should probably specify that undead using bardic music expend her uses just as she would, otherwise you'd see tombsingers using undead only for music.

Also found the artist's deviant art which had this cool little quote to go with the picture that i thought i'd share:

I added it in, and I have to say, that is a very cool quote.

Carl
2014-08-15, 08:01 AM
Indeed, not sure if you knew but the artists title for the work is "Bride of Lucifer", which makes the quote suitably creepy.

Sgt. Cookie
2014-08-15, 10:35 AM
I REALLY like this class, but there are some things that bug me:

Music of the tomb: Loosing those Cure spells kinda hurts. Personally, I think the Tombsinger should get the Inflict counterparts at the appropriate level. So, since the Tombsinger looses the 1st level spell Cure Light Wounds, it should get Inflict Light Wounds as a 1st level spell and so on.

Each ability should be marked as to whether or not it's a Supernatural or Extraordinary ability or what have you. Because they're unmarked, they default to Extraordinary (I think. They default to something, though).

Necromantic Prowess: Caster Level has no effect on Rebuking Undead. That's a straight up d20+Cha check. It's obvious that's what you mean, though, but it wouldn't hurt to make it clear.

That being said, the bonus to Rebuke checks is more thematic than functional, as there's NO inherent Rebuke Undead ability. You'd have to dip Cleric for that and not every build has a free level to spare JUST to get that ability.

Personally, I'd add the following ability (At 2nd level):

Gravesong (Su): At second level a Tombsinger may expend a use of Bardic Music to make a Rebuke Check. This is identical to an Evil Cleric's Rebuke Undead ability, except that it uses (Tombsinger level + Bard level) to determine how powerful an Undead you can affect.

And now, a little bit of proofreading:

Spells per day/Spells known: "as if "whe" had also gained a level". Second line, near the middle.

"each level of "Tombsingerfor" the purpose". Last line.

Soul's Inspiration: "bonus's" isn't right, "bonuses" is the correct term. Second to last line, near the end.

"check's" doesn't need an apostrophe. Same line as the last, a few words in.

Risen Orchestra: In the "Desecrating Tune" entry, "HP's" doesn't need the "'s". +1 HP per HD makes sense on its own.


That's about it really. Excellent class, BTW.

LordErebus12
2014-08-15, 11:31 AM
this is a very cool prc... great job.

Raunchel
2014-08-15, 02:18 PM
I REALLY like this class, but there are some things that bug me:

Music of the tomb: Loosing those Cure spells kinda hurts. Personally, I think the Tombsinger should get the Inflict counterparts at the appropriate level. So, since the Tombsinger looses the 1st level spell Cure Light Wounds, it should get Inflict Light Wounds as a 1st level spell and so on.

Each ability should be marked as to whether or not it's a Supernatural or Extraordinary ability or what have you. Because they're unmarked, they default to Extraordinary (I think. They default to something, though).

Necromantic Prowess: Caster Level has no effect on Rebuking Undead. That's a straight up d20+Cha check. It's obvious that's what you mean, though, but it wouldn't hurt to make it clear.

That being said, the bonus to Rebuke checks is more thematic than functional, as there's NO inherent Rebuke Undead ability. You'd have to dip Cleric for that and not every build has a free level to spare JUST to get that ability.

Personally, I'd add the following ability (At 2nd level):

Gravesong (Su): At second level a Tombsinger may expend a use of Bardic Music to make a Rebuke Check. This is identical to an Evil Cleric's Rebuke Undead ability, except that it uses (Tombsinger level + Bard level) to determine how powerful an Undead you can affect.

And now, a little bit of proofreading:

Spells per day/Spells known: "as if "whe" had also gained a level". Second line, near the middle.

"each level of "Tombsingerfor" the purpose". Last line.

Soul's Inspiration: "bonus's" isn't right, "bonuses" is the correct term. Second to last line, near the end.

"check's" doesn't need an apostrophe. Same line as the last, a few words in.

Risen Orchestra: In the "Desecrating Tune" entry, "HP's" doesn't need the "'s". +1 HP per HD makes sense on its own.


That's about it really. Excellent class, BTW.

Thank you for the feedback, especially on the proofreading. I tend to miss a lot of things. I will add the nature of the abilities when I have a little more time.


this is a very cool prc... great job.

Thank you for the compliment.

Dyhmas
2014-08-18, 08:22 AM
Ok, back from the weekend and the quick play I had with this class. Ok, first of all, I wasn't able to properly analyze it, since that session got silly veeery quickly. Still, there are a few things I got to note. a little background: we played as lvl16 characters, since everyone had some class/build they wanted to try out, wich allowed me to get the 10 lvls of your PrC. I played a mad jester kind of character, who brought his dead band back to "life" in order to keep playing with him...I know, not amazing, but I had no time to think of anything better. Now, onto the info:

-The lack of Cure spells was felt. I know that healing is not optimal and yadda yadda, but still, being able to get yourself out of the red is pretty usefull. As others have pointed out, I think that giving the Inflict line of spells is also very good cause it allows you to heal your minions (if I recall, correctly, that is).

-The Summon Undead line if spells need revision. I suggest you look around on foruns about it but, basically, they are the lame versions of the Summon Monster spells. Don't get me wrong, they are powerfull, since they give you versatility, but they DO need a revision. I only found two creatures worth summoning in the whole list (wich is only 14 creatures long...the same size of the list for Summon Monster I. Yeah, that's bad.): Allips, with their amazing WIS damaging attacks (my bread and butter, really) and Shadows, wich were very handy since we didn't have any rogue. Again, these spells are good, since they do give versatility, but some options are vastly (VAAASSTTLLYYY) superior than others...and also there's the issue that some creatures can't be summoned at the level you get the spell to summon them, due to the cap on controlled undeads HD. Regarding that, a friend of mine suggested I kept the Summon monster line of spells but perhaps gave me a feature where I add an undead template to the summoned creatures, don't know how that's work out tho. (Tl;Dr - I missed the Summon Monster line of spells the whole time I was playing. =/)

-I spent all the time playing multiple Bard Songs. Wich was awesome. Just wanted to point that out. (All those tasty buffs...)

-At a certain point in the session, we had to check an old noble family's crypt for clues about some old legend, at wich point the other players (and the DM) prompted me to ask one of the dead lying there. Altho they did all read skim trough the class, it was funny to me that they all assumed I could do that. In fact, the DM pretty much came up with that part because he thought I could. I can't really explain this, just throwing it out there.

-Remember when I said that Symphony of the Dead was awesome? Boy, was that an understatement. Picture this: we meet the big boss, wich is riding a five headed hydra. We kill the hydra first. I reanimate the hydra as a skeleton. I haste it. The big bad boss is bitten to shreds before the rest of the group can do anything. Yeah...it was awesome. I called it Jerry. We're good friends now.

Now, a few things that the other players pointed out wich I didn't notice or think about:
-Access to some divine spells of the necromancy school would be nice.
-Animate Undead is superior to the whole Summon Undead line of spells.
-Risen Orchestra needs some sort of music cap...the way it is, you could potentialy have all the important Bard Musics playing at the same time. That could be silly.

I had made a list of things to type here but I forgot them at home and I'm at work right now so...yeah, I'll see if I can add anything when I get back home.
Great class! T'was very fun to play.

Brew on!

-Dyhmas

Raunchel
2014-08-18, 10:17 AM
Ok, back from the weekend and the quick play I had with this class. Ok, first of all, I wasn't able to properly analyze it, since that session got silly veeery quickly. Still, there are a few things I got to note. a little background: we played as lvl16 characters, since everyone had some class/build they wanted to try out, wich allowed me to get the 10 lvls of your PrC. I played a mad jester kind of character, who brought his dead band back to "life" in order to keep playing with him...I know, not amazing, but I had no time to think of anything better. Now, onto the info:

I have to admit that it feels really great to have someone other than me trying the class and input from actual play has the greatest value of all input I think. Thanks a lot for this.


-The lack of Cure spells was felt. I know that healing is not optimal and yadda yadda, but still, being able to get yourself out of the red is pretty usefull. As others have pointed out, I think that giving the Inflict line of spells is also very good cause it allows you to heal your minions (if I recall, correctly, that is).
I think that Tomb-Tainted Soul is really worth it in this case, as it is with many necromantic classes. I am currently slightly expanding the spell list, but am afraid that I'm giving a bit much without the class taking all that much away.


-The Summon Undead line if spells need revision. I suggest you look around on foruns about it but, basically, they are the lame versions of the Summon Monster spells. Don't get me wrong, they are powerfull, since they give you versatility, but they DO need a revision. I only found two creatures worth summoning in the whole list (wich is only 14 creatures long...the same size of the list for Summon Monster I. Yeah, that's bad.): Allips, with their amazing WIS damaging attacks (my bread and butter, really) and Shadows, wich were very handy since we didn't have any rogue. Again, these spells are good, since they do give versatility, but some options are vastly (VAAASSTTLLYYY) superior than others...and also there's the issue that some creatures can't be summoned at the level you get the spell to summon them, due to the cap on controlled undeads HD. Regarding that, a friend of mine suggested I kept the Summon monster line of spells but perhaps gave me a feature where I add an undead template to the summoned creatures, don't know how that's work out tho. (Tl;Dr - I missed the Summon Monster line of spells the whole time I was playing. =/)
I know how you feel, the Summon Undead line just isn't very good and I am thinking about making fixing that spell one of my next projects. It would be expanded a bit but it shouldn't be the case that there are only a few helpful creatures.


-I spent all the time playing multiple Bard Songs. Wich was awesome. Just wanted to point that out. (All those tasty buffs...)

-At a certain point in the session, we had to check an old noble family's crypt for clues about some old legend, at wich point the other players (and the DM) prompted me to ask one of the dead lying there. Altho they did all read skim trough the class, it was funny to me that they all assumed I could do that. In fact, the DM pretty much came up with that part because he thought I could. I can't really explain this, just throwing it out there.[/quote]
It will definately be in the expanded spell list then. This is clear evidence that the class points towards having that spell in the list.


-Remember when I said that Symphony of the Dead was awesome? Boy, was that an understatement. Picture this: we meet the big boss, wich is riding a five headed hydra. We kill the hydra first. I reanimate the hydra as a skeleton. I haste it. The big bad boss is bitten to shreds before the rest of the group can do anything. Yeah...it was awesome. I called it Jerry. We're good friends now.
Good, a capstone should be a great ability, not some extra number that is tacked onto a character somewhere, and I think that it has been achieved.


Now, a few things that the other players pointed out wich I didn't notice or think about:
-Access to some divine spells of the necromancy school would be nice.
-Animate Undead is superior to the whole Summon Undead line of spells.
-Risen Orchestra needs some sort of music cap...the way it is, you could potentialy have all the important Bard Musics playing at the same time. That could be silly.
There will be some more spells in the list that I'm working on now, including some of the more fitting divine spells.

About the Risen Orchestra I have several ideas for caps:
1) They can keep playing for as many rounds as they have ranks in perform(This would stop them from playing forever, by just never stopping, it would however do nothing about having all the musics active during a single combat)
2) Only one undead per two Tombsinger levels can be performing its own bardic music, the rest can only bolster (In this case a lower level Tombsinger would have only a few songs at the same time, but a more powerful one would still have almost all of them on at the same time. But then again, five songs means five daily uses of bardic music. But without a way to force them to stop they would still be playing all day long)
3) Anything else, anyone?


I had made a list of things to type here but I forgot them at home and I'm at work right now so...yeah, I'll see if I can add anything when I get back home.
Great class! T'was very fun to play.

Brew on!

-Dyhmas

Thanks again for your playtesting and reviewing. It is truly a honour to be helped like this.

Raunchel
2014-08-21, 03:20 AM
I have slightly expanded the spell list, and will soon get to work on an improved summon undead spell. Does anyone have suggestions for balancing the Risen Orchestra?

Carl
2014-08-21, 06:27 AM
Does anyone have suggestions for balancing the Risen Orchestra?

I'd like to ask a question. Where the undead doing their perform checks. To have a nigh guaranteed pass rate they'd need, (depending on specific music), 10, 13, 16, or 19 HD. A 16th level character should off the top of my head only be able to control 32 HD worth of undead so how where they getting enough undead to pull it off without failing masses of check's and wasting most of their uses of bardic music?

Raunchel
2014-08-21, 06:55 AM
I'd like to ask a question. Where the undead doing their perform checks. To have a nigh guaranteed pass rate they'd need, (depending on specific music), 10, 13, 16, or 19 HD. A 16th level character should off the top of my head only be able to control 32 HD worth of undead so how where they getting enough undead to pull it off without failing masses of check's and wasting most of their uses of bardic music?

With animate dead you can control 4*CL undead, so as a 16th level character you get 64 HD of undead, without anything to boost caster levels or the like. In a campaign where players are free to spend their wealth a rod of undead mastery would double this to 128 (10.000 gp isn't very much by then, so it's easily affordable). But even with 'only' 64 HD worth of undead it is possible to have four of sixteen HD, leading to quite easy music, and if there are more smaller ones, they can use aid another to bring the number of flawlessly played musics higher again.

This would make the Tombsinger excessively powerful I fear, alhough other characters at that level will be doing things like casting level 16 spells or wildshaping into large elementals.

Dyhmas
2014-08-21, 07:07 AM
Great additions to the spell list! Some of those I didn't even know, but after a quick search, came to like a lot (I'm looking at you Shroud of Undeath!).

About the 'excessive power", I must say that, when playing with the class, even tho I managed to get 3 bardic musics going at the same time, It did not feel overpowered at all. Sure, if you check splatbooks and homebrew you could find some bard musics that could really break stuff when combined, but if you stay at core only, you give pretty good buffs and thats it. You're still miles away from what a cleric or a wizard (hell, even a sorcerer or druid) can do buff-wise.

However, that doesn't mean it is not breakable (again, homebrew musics and such can be rather nasty), that's why I said a cap would be good. 3 bard musics at the same time are more than enough IMO. Perhaps you can work with balancing Risen Orchestra that way?

-Dyhmas

LordErebus12
2014-08-21, 07:11 AM
Summon Undead I
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Blackguard 1, cleric 1, dread necromancer 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like summon monster I (see page 285 of the Player's Handbook), except that you summon an undead creature.

Summon undead I conjures one of the creatures from the 1st-level list in the Summon Undead table at right. You choose which creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell. Summoned undead do not count toward the total Hit Dice of undead that you can control with animate dead, plague of undead, or other command undead abilities. No undead creature you summon can have more Hit Dice than your caster level +1.

Focus: A tiny bag, a small candle (not lit), and a carved bone from any humanoid.

Note: The descriptions of the summon undead spells presented here supersede earlier published descriptions.

Summon Undead II
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Blackguard 2, cleric 2, dread necromancer 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like summon undead I, except that you can summon one undead from the 2nd-level list or two undead of the same kind from the 1st-level list.

Summon Undead III
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Blackguard 3, cleric 3, dread necromancer 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like summon undead I, except that you can summon one undead from the 3rd-level list, two undead of the same kind from the 2nd-level list, or four undead of the same kind from the 1st-level list.

Summon Undead IV
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Blackguard 4, cleric 4, dread necromancer 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like summon undead I, except that you can summon one undead from the 4th-level list, two undead of the same kind from the 3rd-level list, or four undead of the same kind from a lower-level list.

Summon Undead V
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Cleric 5, dread necromancer 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like summon undead I, except that you can summon one undead from the 5th-level list, two undead of the same kind from the 4th-level list, or four undead of the same kind from a lower-level list.



1st Level



Creature Name (Book)
CR
Creature Name (Book)
CR


Raiment (Lmo 117)
1
Zombie, Human Commoner
<1


Skeleton, Human Warrior
<1
Zombie, Kobold
<1


Skeleton, Wolf
1
Zombie, Troglodyte
1


2nd Level



Deathlock (Lmo 94)
3
Tomb Mote (Lmo 128)
2


Necrosis Carnex (MM4 104)
3
Zombie, Bugbear
2


Skeleton, Owlbear
2
Zombie, Ogre
3


Skin Kite (Lmo 119)
3




3rd Level



Bone Rat Swarm (Lmo 88)
3
Skeleton, Troll
3


Crypt Thing (FF 36)
3
Slaymate (Lmo 122)
2


Ghoul
1
Vasuthant (MM3 182)
2


Plague Walker (MM4 120)
3




4th Level


Allip
3
Skeleton, Chimera
4


Bonedrinker, Lesser (MM3 19)
4
Web Mummy (MM4 165)
4


Corpse Rat Swarm (Lmo 92)
4
Zombie, Minotaur
4


Entomber (Lmo 97)
5
Zombie, Wyvern
4


Ghast
3




5th Level



Bonedrinker (MM3 18)
6
Skeleton, Ettin
5


Mummy
5
Vampire Spawn
4


Plague Blight (Lmo 115)
6
Wight
4


Shadow
3
Wraith
5


Skeleton, Advanced Megaraptor
6

Raunchel
2014-08-24, 08:53 AM
Great additions to the spell list! Some of those I didn't even know, but after a quick search, came to like a lot (I'm looking at you Shroud of Undeath!).

About the 'excessive power", I must say that, when playing with the class, even tho I managed to get 3 bardic musics going at the same time, It did not feel overpowered at all. Sure, if you check splatbooks and homebrew you could find some bard musics that could really break stuff when combined, but if you stay at core only, you give pretty good buffs and thats it. You're still miles away from what a cleric or a wizard (hell, even a sorcerer or druid) can do buff-wise.

However, that doesn't mean it is not breakable (again, homebrew musics and such can be rather nasty), that's why I said a cap would be good. 3 bard musics at the same time are more than enough IMO. Perhaps you can work with balancing Risen Orchestra that way?

-Dyhmas

Thanks, I think that your proposal is a good solution and added it to the class


Summon Undead I
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Blackguard 1, cleric 1, dread necromancer 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like summon monster I (see page 285 of the Player's Handbook), except that you summon an undead creature.

Summon undead I conjures one of the creatures from the 1st-level list in the Summon Undead table at right. You choose which creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell. Summoned undead do not count toward the total Hit Dice of undead that you can control with animate dead, plague of undead, or other command undead abilities. No undead creature you summon can have more Hit Dice than your caster level +1.

Focus: A tiny bag, a small candle (not lit), and a carved bone from any humanoid.

Note: The descriptions of the summon undead spells presented here supersede earlier published descriptions.

Summon Undead II
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Blackguard 2, cleric 2, dread necromancer 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like summon undead I, except that you can summon one undead from the 2nd-level list or two undead of the same kind from the 1st-level list.

Summon Undead III
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Blackguard 3, cleric 3, dread necromancer 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like summon undead I, except that you can summon one undead from the 3rd-level list, two undead of the same kind from the 2nd-level list, or four undead of the same kind from the 1st-level list.

Summon Undead IV
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Blackguard 4, cleric 4, dread necromancer 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like summon undead I, except that you can summon one undead from the 4th-level list, two undead of the same kind from the 3rd-level list, or four undead of the same kind from a lower-level list.

Summon Undead V
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Cleric 5, dread necromancer 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like summon undead I, except that you can summon one undead from the 5th-level list, two undead of the same kind from the 4th-level list, or four undead of the same kind from a lower-level list.



1st Level



Creature Name (Book)
CR
Creature Name (Book)
CR


Raiment (Lmo 117)
1
Zombie, Human Commoner
<1


Skeleton, Human Warrior
<1
Zombie, Kobold
<1


Skeleton, Wolf
1
Zombie, Troglodyte
1


2nd Level



Deathlock (Lmo 94)
3
Tomb Mote (Lmo 128)
2


Necrosis Carnex (MM4 104)
3
Zombie, Bugbear
2


Skeleton, Owlbear
2
Zombie, Ogre
3


Skin Kite (Lmo 119)
3




3rd Level



Bone Rat Swarm (Lmo 88)
3
Skeleton, Troll
3


Crypt Thing (FF 36)
3
Slaymate (Lmo 122)
2


Ghoul
1
Vasuthant (MM3 182)
2


Plague Walker (MM4 120)
3




4th Level


Allip
3
Skeleton, Chimera
4


Bonedrinker, Lesser (MM3 19)
4
Web Mummy (MM4 165)
4


Corpse Rat Swarm (Lmo 92)
4
Zombie, Minotaur
4


Entomber (Lmo 97)
5
Zombie, Wyvern
4


Ghast
3




5th Level



Bonedrinker (MM3 18)
6
Skeleton, Ettin
5


Mummy
5
Vampire Spawn
4


Plague Blight (Lmo 115)
6
Wight
4


Shadow
3
Wraith
5


Skeleton, Advanced Megaraptor
6





Thanks a lot for that, it is a really improved version of the summon undead spell. Wold you mind if I take it as the start for the work that I intend to do on it? Most of what I plan on doing is adding a few more levels of it, bringing it up to level 9.