Xykon's New Necklace.

[The Anti Hero]

Take a good look at the new comic, 422. Xykon in particular. Notice anything strange about him (Other than the fact that he's being really submissive)? He's got a necklace. What's that all about?

[BardicLasher]

That's not Xykon, that's an undead designed to look like him. It's a distraction!

[Lord Nyax]

It would fit nicely in with the story, and explain a great many things. You can add me to the list of supporters for the "Xykon look-a-like" hypothesis.

[brian c]

That's not Xykon, that's an undead designed to look like him. It's a distraction!

I'd venture to guess that the necklace is probably a fairly strong magical item so that the fake xykon doesn't die too quickly and ruin the plan

[Shadic]

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1605/xykonav2.png

Man, I was going to make this topic, was busy playing Risk and making that picture..

[Pvednes]

Totally his phylactery from Redcloak's neck.

Probably why he's wussing out a bit.

[Nightmarenny]

Totally his phylactery from Redcloak's neck.

Probably why he's wussing out a bit.
Umm.....no you fail at speculation

[13_CBS]

You know, that necklace looks familiar somehow.

Does anyone else recognize that necklace?

[Heads_or_Tails]

I agree that the "Xykon" is a distraction, 1, because he wasn't acting like himself AT ALL, 2, the new necklace, and 3, because Redcloak got the idea from a bullseye target. (Well, mentioning one anyway)

[Shattersnap]

Maybe he bought it at a local jewelry maker because he thought it brought out the color of his eyes and it reminded him of home?

[joehein]

idk i agree with 13_cbs it does look familiar but idk what from? maybe because it's such a generic design.

[Eriol]

You know, that necklace looks familiar somehow.

Does anyone else recognize that necklace?
Looks like the telepathic communication necklace that was in a pair of bonus strips in the printed DCF book.

[Mr Teufel]

I think it looks 'familiar' because of the limitations of a stick figure comic.

I think it is to help the disguise; it may provide the voice, or perhaps make the fake Xykon show up on paladin Evil detectors.

[Hario]

Or its a Wight Cleric and the necklace is for its holy symbol, all clerics seems to have necklaces... Alter Self is an easy low level spell that lasts hours...

[Zanaril]

It kinda looks like the necklace worn by the girl in a pink top, last panal of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html)strip. Anlthough Xykon's one has a smaller gem on it.

Probably just a coincidence though.

[Demented]

It kinda looks like the necklace worn by the girl in a pink top, last panal of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html)strip. Anlthough Xykon's one has a smaller gem on it.

Probably just a coincidence though.

Wow. What are the chances someone could find an orange holy symbol in OOTS, when it's hidden so well in that strip? Just wowza. Have you memorized the OOTS QUIZ threads, or what?

[ShiningTed]

It does indeed look familiar, but I ain't trawling back looking for it :smallamused:

Damn I just loved Redcloak in that last panel! I don't care if it is a fake Xykon (and my jury is still out on that).

[Alfryd]

In the event it is a fake Xykon, the undead in question has to be at least reasonably intelligent.

The necklace is probably just a fake phylactery intended to give the heroes the impression they've dispatched Xykon permanently. Which raises the question of where Xykon is supposed to be, if they're trying to lull Roy & Co. into a false sense of security.

[Nikolai_II]

Another neat point is how his expression never changes - another point for the Fauxykon idea. Ah, what a pity - here I was hoping that Redcloak really had grown a pair :smallbiggrin:

[Yuudai]

I think it is a fake..his personatily is not like that..unnless perhaps redcloack put him under a spell..wait no, then he would not have not done it..thus must be fake

[factotum]

You know, that necklace looks familiar somehow.

Does anyone else recognize that necklace?

It looks similar to the Amulet of Supreme Leadership worn by the hobgoblin in 149, but it's more orange than that one was.

[BisectedBrioche]

Perhaps the necklace is simply [insert non-sequitor here]

[fwiffo]

Speaking of necklaces... What is she wearing?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-8/1204323/roaches.jpg

Looks a little like a necklace to me.

[BisectedBrioche]

Speaking of necklaces... What is she wearing?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-8/1204323/roaches.jpg

Looks a little like a necklace to me.

Or demon cockroach vomit.

[Conqueso]

1. That's not Xykon

2. It's probably a Necklace of Missles, to do the "blasting" talked about in #416.

[SteveMB]

The necklace is probably just a fake phylactery intended to give the heroes the impression they've dispatched Xykon permanently. Which raises the question of where Xykon is supposed to be, if they're trying to lull Roy & Co. into a false sense of security.
That deception wouldn't last long -- it simply wouldn't make sense for Xykon to keep his phylactery on his person in a hazardous situation -- but maybe it doesn't have to.

[Zanaril]

Wow. What are the chances someone could find an orange holy symbol in OOTS, when it's hidden so well in that strip? Just wowza. Have you memorized the OOTS QUIZ threads, or what?

Nope, someone pointed to that panal in a "Who would be crazy enough to replace belkar" discussion. It's just a coincidence that that amulet happens to be there and I noticed it.

[Bel_Bel]

Its not a duplicate. You guys are taking this way to far to an extreme.

[BisectedBrioche]

Its not a duplicate. You guys are taking this way to far to an extreme.

And your using a double positive.

[Charlybob]

O_o

It's an amulet. You guys try to read into stuff too much.

Maybe if his skeleton was bright green, and his head was on upside down or something, yeah, but it's an amulet.

Oh, and about redcloak with a spine, it gives his reason for being that way in the last panel.

[atteSmythe]

In a comic where every holy symbol apparently looks the same (Durkon's and Redcloak's are identical), I don't put too much stock in the similarity of Xykon's necklace to any other we've seen.

[Sinewmire]

I think it's just the fact that he's suddenly wearing one.

[Bluelantern]

I think is a goblin with a ilusory magic

[The Familiar]

I don't think Xykon's body double is an undead; the necklace looks much the same as the Hobgoblin cleric's in the second invader's panel, and we haven't seen any undead with that much autonomous intelligence--much less feelings of self-preservation--previously in Xykon's army. Redcloak talks about rebuking and refers to the other as a undead, simply to maintain the charade...and to get some of his suppressed frustration with his boss off his chest.

After all, there may be ninja around... :smallwink:

[Evil_Pacifist]

I'd like to point out that a ruby is one of the material components for the Simulacrum spell.

[Luvlein]

I'd like to point out that a ruby is one of the material components for the Simulacrum spell.
I'd like to point out that the material component in question is powdered ruby, not some amulet.
Furthermore, material components are annihilated when the spell is cast.

[vanyell]

I would like to suggest it has more to do with
this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html)

then any complex spell

[Andiamo]

More to do with what, exactly?

[the_tick_rules]

wow, that undead stand-in theory is sure popular.

[TigerHunter]

More to do with what, exactly?
He thinks it's just an art upgrade.

[agentx42]

Totally his phylactery from Redcloak's neck.

Probably why he's wussing out a bit.

Honestly, you people.

Redcloak is already wearing Xykon's phylactery. Therefore Xykon can't possibly be wearing his own phylactery. Take another good, close look at R & X together.

That ain't the real Xykon. Simple.

[Swashbuckler]

My own two Zhents worth is that Xykon and Redcloak have switched forms. Necklaces aside. We shall see.

[PaladinFreak]

I really don't think it is an art upgrade, because if you compare Redcloak from Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) and Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html), and Xykon from those same two, Redcloak is exactly the same, and Xykon has a new necklace.

[Skippy]

I don't think it's a fake phylactery, because I'm sure the OotS doesn't even know what a phylactery is. Thye just know he's not finished, but they don't know a damn thing about how did he avoid death again...

About who the hell is the guy in the Xykon suit, I don't know who can it be...

[Saco de Carne]

It was only a question of time...and level. Redclock is a priest, with the right number of levels he can rebuke, command or even destroy powerfull undead.
That's why sentient undead usually don't hang around with priests.

[Mr Teufel]

Does the Giant usually advertise an art upgrade - either when he puts up the strip, or within the strip itself? I truly don't know, but I've only noticed those where he's advertised it. Are there any examples of where it's happened without him acknowledging it?

[Eldritch_Ent]

My theory is it's just a Magical amulet of somesort since he had the slot open after The OotS stole his old one. I mean, what self respecting army-leading story character would run around without even an Amulet of Armor +1 or something?

As for the undead standin thing, I don't buy it. I just think Xykon's not willing to argue with his highest-level (Not counting his pet Grue) minion. Especially one that could very well rebuke him, depending on level and Wisdom Modifiers and such.

[Green Bean]

It kind of looks to me like an amulet that makes people less 'mean'. If you look at the roaches, the one saying 'make love not war' is wearing one too.

[Sethis]

Liches get turn resistance + 4. Xykon is at least a 20th HD undead for the purposes of turning. Probably 24th. Because of this, Redcloak would need to be at least level 17 to even have a CHANCE at rebuking him, and even then it would take a hell of a roll. Xykon isn't dumb. He'd know that, he's not going to hire an evil cleric who has any chance at beating him whatsoever.

I don't think that's him.

[Ranis]

It's a cosmetic upgrade. Liches have powerful magic items at their disposal, it's as simple as that.

[brian c]

Liches get turn resistance + 4. Xykon is at least a 20th HD undead for the purposes of turning. Probably 24th. Because of this, Redcloak would need to be at least level 17 to even have a CHANCE at rebuking him, and even then it would take a hell of a roll. Xykon isn't dumb. He'd know that, he's not going to hire an evil cleric who has any chance at beating him whatsoever.

I don't think that's him.

This is a good point that more people need to be paying attention to. People are somehow assuming that Redcloak can rebuke any undead just because he's a cleric, or that Redcloak and Xykon are about the same level so the rebuke has a good chance of succeeding. Xykon is probably epic-level, with the noted turn resistance from being a lich. Redcloak is probably higher level than OOTS, but he barely held his own against Miko so I wouldn't put him any higher than 16th level (Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4912) has Xykon as 18+ and Redcloak as 13+). With that much of a level difference, plus turn resistance, Redcloak might be able to rebuke Xykon if he rolls a 20 but otherwise it can't happen, and both of them know it. In 422, Redcloak and "Xykon" both know that Redcloak can easily rebuke "Xykon", so he must be a much lower level undead. Also, besides the necklace there's the matter of Xykon's eyes.

[Green Bean]

This is a good point that more people need to be paying attention to. People are somehow assuming that Redcloak can rebuke any undead just because he's a cleric, or that Redcloak and Xykon are about the same level so the rebuke has a good chance of succeeding. Xykon is probably epic-level, with the noted turn resistance from being a lich. Redcloak is probably higher level than OOTS, but he barely held his own against Miko so I wouldn't put him any higher than 16th level (Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4912) has Xykon as 18+ and Redcloak as 13+). With that much of a level difference, plus turn resistance, Redcloak might be able to rebuke Xykon if he rolls a 20 but otherwise it can't happen, and both of them know it. In 422, Redcloak and "Xykon" both know that Redcloak can easily rebuke "Xykon", so he must be a much lower level undead. Also, besides the necklace there's the matter of Xykon's eyes.

I wouldn't use that as hard and fast evidence of his power level. Remember, he, an unbuffed primary spellcaster, nearly defeated a paladin while within melee range. If Redcloak enters into a fight with a few choice spells on him, he'd probably seem alot more powerful.

(translation: CODzilla ftw :smallbiggrin: )

[ABChristine]

Although I don't believe that it was really Xykon, I also don't believe that it was a disguised undead. If that were the case he simply would have said, "brains..." Although I am thinking it may simply be a disguised hobgoblin.

[Hobot]

It kind of looks to me like an amulet that makes people less 'mean'. If you look at the roaches, the one saying 'make love not war' is wearing one too.

That's an interesting observation.

To me it seems that the Giant is definitely trying to get us to believe that Xykon is a fake. The change in Xykon's behaviour is totally suspicious. I don't buy the explanation proposed by the anti-fake Xykon crowd that Redcloak has just grown a spine or that Xykon is just nervous. It's just totally out of character and it really would be bad writing for the Giant to make sudden behind the scenes changes in terms of character dynamics. Unless there is some magic behind the change in Xykon's behaviour. Maybe that amulet really does make the wearer more passive, but to what end?

Can anybody think of a good reason why "team Xykon" would want to make Xykon very passive?

I realize this is a very out there theory, but it seems to me that a fake Xykon might be a bit too obvious/straightforward for the Giant. He's an excellent writer and terribly good at introducing all sorts of twists and turns.

[Axl_Rose]

Redcloak and Xykon have not switched forms. Xykon is not Xykon but Redcloak is Redcloak. Evidence: Redcloak comments on how therapeutic yelling at a faux Xykon is.

[Copacetic]

It's as necklace used by redcloak to control Xykon to make sure he does his job past killing RedBlade

[dragongirl13]

I think it's a fake phylactery or a protective magic item.

Fake Xykon=powerful spells not coming from Xykon=bonus on Sense Motive. BIG bonus.

[ObiwanNekody]

Just because nobody has suggested it yet...
Perhaps there is a general ward on all the gates, cast as part of the creation of said gates, that prevents things of evil alignment from touching them. The first gate was destroyed prior to Xykon learning this from it and he did not have enough time to devise a method to circumvent this ward with the second gate prior to OOTS showing up. The necklace is an amulet that in some way bottles up the evilness of Xykon, which would allow him to touch the gate.
It could be that the gates are not so warded but Xykon believes them to be such from only encountering one of them long enough to study prior to it being destroyed.

The suppressing of the evilness of Xykon results in him having second thoughts of the war and being more submissive to red cloak.

The hippie daemon roach stating 'make love, not war' and the (as far as magical detection can tell) alignment altering properties of Xykon's lost crown.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Interesting theory, though it makes me wonder if in fact Xykon wasn't evil, but just his amulet was? =P Unlikely, but it is a distant possibility. Most people's alignments aren't dictated by what they wear, after all. =P

[V Junior]

Ok. Here goes...


Redcloak: real
Xykon: fake.
So we have a conumdrum. Will RC betray the real Xykon, or will the fake be destroyed by RC forgetting that it's not the real Xykon. Or...
RC: real
X: real!!!
If ^ is plausible, and true, we are faced with another conumdrum; Will RC betray X? The way the plot is stacking, I'd say yes, but, then again, where is the real X? Evidence to support th Rc betrays X theory in 423:

RC IS BECOMING THE BIG BAD BADDIE! Where the heck is Xykon anyhows? On his dwagon? No we would've seen the little dwagon fly!!!!

oops. I read way to much Erfworld ('dwagon' twice in ^)

[Saco de Carne]

I wouldn't use that as hard and fast evidence of his power level. Remember, he, an unbuffed primary spellcaster, nearly defeated a paladin while within melee range. If Redcloak enters into a fight with a few choice spells on him, he'd probably seem alot more powerful.

(translation: CODzilla ftw :smallbiggrin: )


Right to the point!

Dont forget the feats to improve turns. No way Xycon is epic level! No way OOTS CR is over 10.

[Sinewmire]

Could it be an Amulet of Arrow Attracting or something, in line with Redcloaks possible plan to use Xykon as bait? Hmmmmm...

[Fascisticide]

I think it's the real Xykon. Redcloak has a strong personnal motivation, he took things into his hands and told Xykon to shove it and not spoil his plan. After all, Redcloak has every reason to be pissed off at Xykon for being such a lazy drag and doing absolutely nothing for this war against Azure City. Redcloak had to to absolutely everything, he finally has the means to avenge whatever he has to avenge, and he doesnt want it to fail because of Xykon.

If things go this way, Redcloak could take the spotlight as a much more serious BBEG, while Xykon was really pathetic (but funny). It would make a nice turn of events in the story. But I dont think that's going to happen because Redcloak doesn't seem to care too much about the gates, and that's the focus of the story.

[Aerysil]

It could be a necklace of fireballs so that the duplicate is more convincing. The fact that the dot inside is red could be an indicator.

[Mr Teufel]

Right to the point!

Dont forget the feats to improve turns. No way Xycon is epic level! No way OOTS CR is over 10.

You need to read this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4912). A lot of people have put a lot of thought into what level the OotS is; consensus is about 13th level.

[Alfryd]

Redcloak is probably higher level than OOTS, but he barely held his own against Miko so I wouldn't put him any higher than 16th level...

Remember, he, an unbuffed primary spellcaster, nearly defeated a paladin while within melee range.
I'm sorry, he can't both 'nearly defeat' and 'barely hold his own' against said paladin within melee range.
We do know, however, that Miko got him into pretty bad shape with moderate wounds to herself, but not quite so bad she wasn't able to heal herself fully afterward without items. At the same time, Redcloak doesn't seem to wear heavy armour (for reasons which escape me,) and Xykon mentions that the fight lasted longer than 4 rounds, though she didn't seem to deal much damage during the first 2.
Miko's average damage output, assuming she hits half the time over 4 rounds, has str/cha 16 and +4 weapons, would be roughly 28 HP per round in damage, plus at least 1 Smite Evil for a grand total of 4x28+30 = 142 HP in damage.
Assuming that RC has a generous con of 18, that puts his cleric levels at a minimum of 142/8.5 = 17.

The trick is guesstimating Miko's batting average here. She doesn't seem to inflict any wounds on RC in 369, despite signs of clear discomfort on his part, so perhaps he *was* prepared beforehand with some form of damage buffer or temporary HP. I can't think of a spell ofhand which'd do the trick, though.
Miko is probably a Monk 2/Paladin 14, so her BAB is 15, with +4 weapons and -2 for TWF. Assuming Redcloak has +11 to AC from dex and armour+4, took combat expertise (up to +5), or wears an extra protective item or two (+2), he could have an AC of 28 or higher without excess trouble, which puts Miko's damage output down substantially.

The other issue is how likely Miko was to have has escaped alive from a barrage of divine spells hurled by an 17th-level caster, who can afford to toss around Harm like it were popcorn. 3 doses of which will mean a minimum of 225 HP in damage, which there is no way in hell Miko can muster, let alone Lay on Hands for. (Of course, RC might not have prepared multiple Harm spells.)

Now you can see why Rich doesn't post detailed fight descriptions any more.

In any case, I reckon Redcloak is *probably* higher level than Miko, but not quite such a high level that he can rebuke Xykon trivially. Given the undead in question's attitude to RC, it is highly unlikely we're looking at the real McCoy.


EDIT:
On reflection, Redcloak might have been busy healing himself every round or two, which puts his damage output down a bit, and reduces the need for massive HP or AC. Daw.

And actually, given that RC successfully got off a Harm and Destruction spell, if he's level 13 or better the MINIMUM damage he would have dealt to her initially is 65+10 = 75 points of damage, and 100 most likely.
If Miko has con 12, we're looking at her having 91 + 11 = 102 HP, so she can *probably* survive, but with cha 16 she can still only heal up to 42 damage on herself. Let's assume she has some very nice stat-boosting items...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofCharisma

Cloak of Charisma
This lightweight and fashionable cloak has a highly decorative silver trim. When in a character’s possession, it adds a +2, +4, or +6 enhancement bonus to her Charisma score.
Hmm. That does fit the bill quite nicely, actually. Her cloak does have a certain silvery trim.

...pushing her cha mod up to +6, then she can heal for 84 damage. None of her divine spells are worth a crap by comparison. But it places an effective upper bound on Redcloak's level if Miko were able to heal the damage he dealt using Harm and Destruction using one dose of Lay on Hands.

On the other hand, RC seems to deal *no* damage whatsoever using Destruction in 369. So perhaps Rich is taking certain liberties with the SRD descriptions again.

EDIT EDIT:
I forgot Miko's str bonus for attack rolls, and RC might always eschew heavy armour if he has a good dex score.