PDA

View Full Version : Contest Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

Temotei
2014-08-18, 01:47 PM
Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV:
All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us


Chat thread four is here and with it, a whole fifty pages of fun and pink-orange-yellow fruits! Whoo! :smalltongue:

Any entries for contests should be entered in the current contest and discussed here. That is, anything other than entries goes here.

Also, anyone who enters the contests may have their classes evaluated for what "tier" it's in by Morph Bark here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245701)/here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?391953-Morph-Bark-s-NEW-AND-IMPROVED-Homebrew-Tier-Compendium-3-5-PF), though they've been busy lately. This has no bearing on the contest, so keep making what you like.

For those of you into making smaller portions of homebrew, there's the Local Speakeasy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?525365-Local-Speakeasy-Competition-Chat-II-No-Shirt-No-Shoes-Materials-Provided-within) now.

Current Contest - Happy Little Accidents (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526968-Base-Class-Contest-XXXX-Happy-Little-Accidents)

Past Contests



Contest
Name
First Place
Winner


I
The Light Beckons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8008389)
Twilight Caster
Owrtho


II
Altar of Naught (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8591867)
Ebon Initiate
ErrantX


III
Can I Borrow That? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9411886)
Hemoscribe
Morph Bark


IV
Tipping the Scale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10075276)
Gambler
PairO'Dice Lost


V
You're MIND! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10504199)
Mindwarped
dragonjek


VI
Let's Play Dress Up! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199119)
Stylist
Cipherthe3vil


VII
You've Been PUNK'D! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206927)
Generator
ErrantX


VIII
One Small Step for a Contest...One Giant Step for Contestkind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216894)
Zodiac
Derjuin


IX
Better Than it Sounds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12291460)
Farmer
Derjuin


X
Name That Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230747)
Tempest Warlord
Silva Stormrage


XI
Big Money Weave a Mighty Web (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237024)
Companion
titanreaver


XII
Race Race (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244379)
Son of Man
Morph Bark


XIII
On a Whim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250826)
Cycle Warden
sirpercival


XIV
Champions and Mooks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257051)
Ley Engineer
sirpercival


XV
Lights! Camera! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14312272)
Extractor
sirpercival


XVI
Doing What We Must Because We Can (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270292)
Astronomer
sirpercival


XVII
Heroes of Note: Keeping it Trill (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278523)
TreŁthSyngŽr
BelGareth


XVIII
Crazy Hobos Everywhere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15464432)
Panphobic
sirpercival


XIX
Inner Might (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301714)
Jinnblood
Zaydos


XX
Fables and Mythos and Tales, Oh My (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16437957)
Tall Tale
Zaydos


XXI
Can I Get Some Booze From the Crowd? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16826376)
Intoxicanter
Zaydos


XXII
Taking Pixars of Dreamworks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?343354-Base-Class-Contest-XXII-Taking-Pixars-of-Dreamworks)
Mecha Ace
Jester of Doom


XXIII
Armageddon Ready (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357758-Base-Class-Contest-XXIII-Armageddon-Ready)
Doomsayer
Zaydos


XXIV
Will Breed for Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367155-Base-Class-Contest-XXIV-Will-Breed-for-Class)
Dragonsoul Acolyte
Zaydos


XXV
Dungeon Plunge-In (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379797-Base-Class-Contest-XXV-Dungeon-Plunge-In)
Dungeon Master
Jormengand


XXVI
Flipping the Table (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?390385-Base-Class-Contest-XXVI-Flipping-the-Table)
Simic Biomancer
Zaydos


XXVII
Pretty in Pink (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?402537-Base-Class-Contest-XXVII-Pretty-in-Pink)
Princess
Zaydos


XXVIII
(Maybe) Morally Justified (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414463-Base-Class-Contest-XXVIII-(Maybe)-Morally-Justified)
Karmic Avenger
sengmeng


XXIX
Games. Games Everywhere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427253-Base-Class-Contest-XXIX-Games-Games-Everywhere)
Freelancer
Zaydos


XXX
A Study in Beige (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?441142-Base-Class-Contest-XXX-A-Study-in-Beige)
Inventor
Jormengand


XXXI
Consumption of the Masses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?461085-Base-Class-Contest-XXXI-Consumption-of-the-Masses-3-5)
Potion Maker
Jormengand


XXXII
Tipping the Scale II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477112-Base-Class-Contest-XXXII-Tipping-the-Scale-II-3-5)
Dude Who Does Tai Chi
sengmeng


XXXIII
...And Old Lace (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?483750-Base-Class-Contest-XXXIII-And-Old-Lace-3-5)
Juicer
Beelzebub1111


XXXIV
All You Can Treat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490388-Base-Class-Contest-XXXIV-All-You-Can-Treat)
Saccharine Slayer
Jormengand


XXXV
Schooling the Competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496957-Base-Class-Contest-XXXV-Schooling-the-Competition)
Paragon of Duality
Jormengand


XXXVI
Contest Under Construction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503609-Base-Class-Contest-XXXVI-Contest-Under-Construction)
Imagineer
sirpercival


XXXVII
Upsy-Daisy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509863-Base-Class-Contest-XXXVII-Upsy-Daisy)
Incompetent
JNAProductions


XXXVIII
I Ain't No Idiom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517115-Base-Class-Contest-XXXVIII-I-Ain-t-No-Idiom)
Idiomancer
Jormengand


XXXIX
Undermined Scruples (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?522358-Base-Class-Contest-XXXIX-Undermined-Scruples)
Dream Weaver
Zaydos



Past Chat Threads



Thread
Subtitle


I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144172)
-


II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181782)
-


III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?257591-Base-Class-Challenge-Chat-Thread-III-Gotta-Brew-Em-All!)
Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

Carl
2014-08-18, 04:41 PM
I guess i give the new thread a kick by letting everyone know I've started editing in my class. Only got the stuff upto the end of the table done and as only r2d2go knows it's very misleading :belkar:, but i thought i'd let you know it's there.

Jormengand
2014-08-18, 04:43 PM
My class is done except for the actual spells and combos/finishing moves.

What do we all think? :smalltongue:

somebody27else
2014-08-18, 06:06 PM
My class is done except for the actual spells and combos/finishing moves.

What do we all think? :smalltongue:

BTW, I'm totally balancing about half my class based on what you deem are appropriate abilities for each level. So if my class ends up completely unbalanced, I'm blaming you. :smallsmile:

Temotei
2014-08-18, 07:03 PM
BTW, I'm totally balancing about half my class based on what you deem are appropriate abilities for each level. So if my class ends up completely unbalanced, I'm blaming you. :smallsmile:

Hahaha! :smallbiggrin:

But really, you should be fine, then.

sirpercival
2014-08-18, 10:30 PM
Hey Temotei, been a long time. Quick question: would something for Ethos of the Wyrm be kosher? I've been kicking around ideas for a 4th base class for a while...

Temotei
2014-08-19, 12:09 AM
Hey Temotei, been a long time. Quick question: would something for Ethos of the Wyrm be kosher? I've been kicking around ideas for a 4th base class for a while...

Hey! Good to see your text.

Yeah, that should be fine. It's been a while since you've added to the project, hasn't it?

sirpercival
2014-08-19, 06:16 AM
Hey! Good to see your text.

Yeah, that should be fine. It's been a while since you've added to the project, hasn't it?

Yes, since I think Dec 2013. I might have fixed a few typos since then, but that's about it. Actually, that reminds me, I should probably re-update the gitp version...

MrNobody
2014-08-19, 10:24 AM
I updated my entry, the Dragon Dancer, that is almost in his final form. The general description and "adaptation" are yet to be refined, and being english not my first language i'm pretty sure that i made mistakes and that some phrases can be written better.
I'll work on editing and on a set of feats that has yet to be added.

Meanwhile comments are really appreciated. Feel free to PM me, i'll listen carefully to your advices and notes!:smallsmile:

Jormengand
2014-08-19, 12:18 PM
BTW, I'm totally balancing about half my class based on what you deem are appropriate abilities for each level.
But really, you should be fine, then.

Wait, you guys trust my sense of balance?

Holy hot damn, I wasn't expecting that.

somebody27else
2014-08-19, 01:12 PM
Wait, you guys trust my sense of balance?

Holy hot damn, I wasn't expecting that.

Why not? Everything you make is balanced (obviously)!

Even Amkii was balanced! :smalltongue:

Jormengand
2014-08-19, 01:43 PM
Why not? Everything you make is balanced (obviously)!

Okay, let's look through the list, shall we?

Base Arcane Archer: Is okayish.
Base Arcane Trickster: Tramples all over the Rogue's feet.
Base Assassin: As above, also has crazy SA.
Base Blackguard: Honestly, not sure why I didn't just stick with one of the evil paladins.
Base Duelist: Is terrible. Be a fighter/rogue/monk, it's an easier way to get most of the same stuff.
Base Dragon Disciple: All the stats, but can't do anything interesting with them, which is why I'm reworking it.
Base Dwarven Defender: Is bad. Can't go places and isn't sticky, doesn't hurt things.
Base Horizon Walker: Is a bad ranger.
Base Loremaster: Is amazing out of combat, terrible in combat.
Base Shadowdancer: Cribs a couple of abilities from Diablo II's assassin, but never actually does anything.
Base Agent Retriever: Great at getting to combat, does nothing upon getting there.
Base Cosmic Descryer: All the conjurations = pretty OP.
Base Divine Emissary: Is basically a weird paladin.
Worldspeaker: Requires just as much optimisation as truenamer to function, but functions far better if you do.
Crystal Chronicles classes: Their crystal magic is almost pointless except for crazy out-of-combat healing. Stacking rings is pointless.
Honour Guard: Just be a fighter.
Mechanical Warrior: Isn't finished; balance is just about okay. Is however capable of outdoing any class by focusing on their schtick.
Nihilist: Nyah nyah, you can't hurt me!
Spellslinger: Because unlimited spells/day was totally a good idea.
Devoted Specialist: Just read all the evocation powers. I'm literally dumping nine levels of metamagic on all of them. How much had I been drinking?
Feragenitor: Broken if you spend ages looking for the right thing, otherwise subpar.
CotA: Acceptable, I guess.
MDP: I don't know what posessed me to give it the ability to nuke an entire city.
Momentum stuff: Too long, didn't write. It's not finished, and probably never will be.


Even Amkii was balanced! :smalltongue:

Do not talk to me about Amkii. Amkii was a bad idea even by my standards.

Temotei
2014-08-19, 02:14 PM
Wait, you guys trust my sense of balance?

Holy hot damn, I wasn't expecting that.

To be fair, I haven't read most of your stuff, but what I have read, I at least like the idea, if not the execution. I'm of the opinion that homebrew balance can vary even in a single author's work pretty widely and that's okay. Not everyone has the same ideas on balance, and having a semi-wide range caters to a larger audience. Besides, if something doesn't match your idea of balance when you make it, you can always use that to improve, which I think you've done.

Also, the internet was funny to read.

Jormengand
2014-08-19, 02:41 PM
Also, the internet was funny to read.

I totally forgot about the internet. That was funny.

Sometimes I amuse even myself with my crazy sense of humour.

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-19, 02:43 PM
I often have trouble with over-correction when it comes to balance. Like, I find out that something I did was way over or underpowered for the level and quickly redo it and end up swinging too far the other way. Then I go back and forth and back and forth hoping I reach the middle.

I also have problem balancing the choices of class features with each other. As in there's a clear path that is the BEST choice (Best example being the Quasi-Warrior, which favored Fire over the other elements so much that I haven't even bothered to correct the table).

Overall, I think the Knight of Dullahan was my best work so far. This one...I think I'll avoid the second problem at least. If we ever do Tabletop Gaming or something else that I could apply this idea I've been keeping on the back-burner it will be my best.

Carl
2014-08-19, 02:43 PM
Just want to ask, is my class table being so wide an issue, it has grown rather big...

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-19, 02:58 PM
I would separate the "Spells" table and put it in a spoiler

Xhosant
2014-08-19, 07:24 PM
Ok, I'm a quarter of a feature away from having all the blocks, and I'm stumped :smallsigh:

The feature in question is Challenge of the Scalebound.

I know I want it to trigger when an ally within threat range is attacked (with an attack roll), it costs an attack of opportunity, has the Knight roll an attack as well, and is meant to be the Knight intercepting the blow with their own weapon.

Any good ideas?

somebody27else
2014-08-19, 07:55 PM
Ok, I'm a quarter of a feature away from having all the blocks, and I'm stumped :smallsigh:

The feature in question is Challenge of the Scalebound.

I know I want it to trigger when an ally within threat range is attacked (with an attack roll), it costs an attack of opportunity, has the Knight roll an attack as well, and is meant to be the Knight intercepting the blow with their own weapon.

Any good ideas?

I have an idea!


Challenge of the Scalebound (Ex): A Scalebound Knight does not take kindly to being ignored in favor of his allies as an adversary. Starting at level 3, every time an ally in a square he threatens is attacked, he can expend an attack of opportunity to intercept the attack. The attack that would hit his ally is prevented, and instead the Scalebound Knight makes a Sunder attempt against opponent's weapon. Any further iterative attacks by that opponent are instead made at the Scalebound Knight.

Okay! Good! Now, on the same note, can anyone give me a PEACH? I'm hungry for some sweet, juicy fruit right about now. :smallsmile:

Xhosant
2014-08-19, 07:58 PM
I have an idea!



Okay! Good! Now, on the same note, can anyone give me a PEACH? I'm hungry for some sweet, juicy fruit right about now. :smallsmile:

I kinda like it, though I'd like to link the roll to the success :P Also, the 'further iteratives' was a major part I'd missed.

It's just a tad late, but I'll try to make sense once I've read :smalltongue:

Xhosant
2014-08-19, 08:29 PM
Fighting Soul: For the purpose of taking feats, the Draconic Channeler may add his D.C. level to his Fighter level (if he has one).


Does this feature require at least 1 level of fighter to grant fighter-only feats? That's not entirely clear.

Smooth Movement (Ex): The DC moves smoothly, despite the armor he is wearing. While wearing armor he is proficient with, he takes no penalty to movement speed based on the armor itself.


Handy, I like that.

Dragon on the Mind (Su): You literally have an ancient, powerful dragon in your head. It doesn't like getting bothered by outside influences. You get a bonus equal to your Draconic Channeler level for Will saves againstagainst mind-affecting spells, psionic abilities, and the like.


Will bonus, standard fare. Do fix the underlined typo.

Channeling (Su): The Dragon Soul Channeler uses a dragon's spirit to amplify himself, his weapons, his armor, and his attacks. He can only channel a certain amount of his Dragon's power at once. This is represented by his Channel Pool, as a certain number of dragon power points (DPP). However, he can only channel a certain amount of DPP into a single object/attack. This is represented by his Max Channel. So a Level 2 DC could channel 1 DPP into his sword (Weapon Burst) and 1 into himself (Body Channeling), but he could not channel both his DPP into his sword simultaneously.

The act of channeling points into an ability is a Free Action that can be taken at the beginning of the D.C.'s turn.

Additionally, after using DPP, the dragon soul needs time to 'recharge', as it were. It takes 5 rounds for a DPP to recharge. Multiple DPP can recharge simultaneously.


So a 'cooldown slot' settup? I like it, a bit tricky on the bookkeeping though.

Weapon Burst (Su): You channel the spirit of the Dragon into your weapon, making it stronger. For each DPP channeled into this ability, 1 weapon you are holding gets a +1 enhancement bonus. After 3 rounds, the Weapon Burst fades and the DPP are used up. You cannot a Weapon Burst on a Natural Weapon, or any weapon which already has an enhancement bonus.


This won't be used for long, though you probably know that. Or know better, we'll see. A more general '+1 to-hit and damage', untyped, might be better.

Body Channeling (Su): You channel your dragon into your body, making yourself much stronger than you normally are. For each DPP, you get a +2 circumstance bonus to a single physical attribute. You also get a +1 racial bonus to Natural Armor and Spell Resistance per DPP. After 3 rounds, the DPP are used up and the bonuses fade.


Choice of bonuses are a little odd, nothing wrong with that though

Punch Breath (Su): Your dragon uses your arm as a medium to channel its breath weapon. The breath weapon deals 2d8 damage of the appropriate damage type per DPP. The breath takes the shape of a cone with radius equal to 15*(1+DPP used).

The DC is 10 + 1/2 DC level + Con mod + DPP used. All DPP are used up immediately.


A little strong at the low levels, perhaps higher. I expected a punch-afterburn effect, but that's ok.

Speed Boost (Su): The Dragon empowers your body, giving you a short burst of speed. Your land and flying speed (if you have one) increase by 30 feet for each DPP invested. The bonus fades after 2 rounds.

Dragon Skin (Ex): Due to continuous channeling of the Dragon, your skin gains properties slightly similar to Dragon scales. You permanently get a +1 bonus to Natural Armor and Spell Resistance. You also get DR 1/-. These bonuses increase by 1 every 4 levels, to a total of +5 to NA and SR and DR 5/- at level 20.

Dracowings (Su): At 5th level, the Draconic Channeler gains the ability to channel their inner Dragon into the back of their armor, creating wings. This ability can only be used if the Channeler is actually wearing clothes or armor on their upper back. The user gets a Fly speed of 30 feet with Perfect maneuverability. Activating this ability requires 1 DPP, and the wings stay for 5 rounds.


Might be a little early for Perfect maneuverability from the get-go. You should rule that they can refresh the wings as they fade, so you don't drop, which I guess is your intent.

Bonus Feat (Ex): You may take a Fighter Bonus Feat, as long as you meet the prerequisites.

Dracogenius (Ex): You often converse with the dragon that resides within you, and thus by level 9 have learned some of its knowledge. You get a bonus to all Skill checks based off mental stats equal to 1/3 your D.C. level, rounded down.


Including Potery, for example? Or Listen? What you'd best like is probably Knowledge checks.

Efficient Channeling (Ex): You are much stronger now then you were in the beginning, and it shows. The DPP you spend now recharge in 4 rounds, rather than 5.

Better Boosting: You are now much better at using a Weapon Burst. You now can add additional nuances too your blade(s). The weapon(s) you use Weapon Burst gain additional properties depending on the amount of DPP you used:

1 DPP - Your weapon, upon a successful hit, does an extra 1d6 damage of the energy type of your dragon.
2 DPPs - Double the threat range of the weapon. This bonus never stacks with any other bonus.
3 DPPs - When making a full attack with the weapon, you can make another attack at your full BAB
4 DPPs - The weapon does an extra 1d6 damage of the appropriate type, and you can make another attack at full BAB
5 DPPs - The weapon's threat range is doubled, and you can make another attack at full BAB.

Note that these bonuses do not stack with one another; if you spend 3 DPP, you don't get the bonus from 1 and 2 DPPs additionally


By this time, the player has long since been using a regular magic weapon, I'm afraid, or keeping a mundane sidearm just for the bursts, and this is gonna be the rule here. It's not bad, but is it intended?

Badder Breath: Your breath delivers a harmful condition upon those that it hits. If an opponent fails a save against your Punch Breath, roll the die shown on the table below. If they roll a 1, they get afflicted with the corresponding condition.


Nauseated is an encouter-closer. You've placed it at a d4. Along with Sickened. that's not right :smalltongue:

Banging Body: Your better at improving your body, and now while using Body Channeling, you gain Draconic features, too. Your Unarmed Strikes (if you have them), become 2d6 Claw attacks. You also gain a 1d8 Tail attack. This lasts for the duration of your Body Channeling.


Not too sure this is gonna see use. You alreay have your Normal and Burst weapons, not much use for natural attacks on top, unless you've built quite oddly.

Super Speed: While speeding along, you cut the wind. You cut it into a little tunnel of wind. While using Speed Boost, any enemy you threaten while moving takes 2d6 Piercing damage.


Threaten from the square you move into, or out of? Choice of damage is odd.

Genius Channel (Su): You channel the genius of the Dragon inside of you. You get a +2 Circumstance bonus to Intelligence, and a +2 bonus to any mental ability-based checks per DPP you channel into this ability. The effects of this ability end after 2 rounds.


Finally, I'm not sure what exactly the dragons have to do here, unless perhaps make me think I recognise a reference. EDIT: The 'stated' dragons, not the flavor, the flavor is here.

So, that's that. I'll answer questions tomorrow.

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-20, 07:40 AM
Here's what I dragon blood potions do so far: Healing/Restoration, Natural Armor/Energy Resistance, Breath Weapon, ablity score bonus. The strength of the potions depends on the age category of the dragon, while deciding energy types depends on the color of the dragon, the durration depends on class level. Can anybody think of some other effects that I might be missing?

Xhosant
2014-08-20, 08:15 AM
I have an idea!

How could I be so blind? Disarms! Thanks!

Carl
2014-08-20, 11:10 AM
Not done yet, (though much closer), but I've heavily updated my entry for the interested. Shortlist of things to do:


Write SLA Stuff
Write Ward's Stuff
Integrate Atronach's
Add Spell Lists
Add Mask Enchantment Table (ughhh)

somebody27else
2014-08-20, 11:33 AM
Will bonus, standard fare. Do fix the underlined typo.
Done! Thanks for pointing that out.

This won't be used for long, though you probably know that. Or know better, we'll see. A more general '+1 to-hit and damage', untyped, might be better.
Hmm... you're right. Good point. I'll change that.

A little strong at the low levels, perhaps higher. I expected a punch-afterburn effect, but that's ok.
*Cough, cough*

BTW, I'm totally balancing about half my class based on what [Jormengand] deem[s] are appropriate abilities for each level. So if my class ends up completely unbalanced, I'm blaming [her].
Check out Jormengand's Disciple's Breath Weapon.

Hey? Hey?

Including Pottery, for example? Or Listen? What you'd best like is probably Knowledge checks.
Well, you do have a dragon in your skull. And really, do you think a who-knows-how-ancient DRAGON wouldn't know a bit of pottery? Or give tips on how to hear better?

Thanks for the PEACH! :smallbiggrin:

Xhosant
2014-08-20, 11:45 AM
*Cough, cough*

Well, you do have a dragon in your skull. And really, do you think a who-knows-how-ancient DRAGON wouldn't know a bit of pottery? Or give tips on how to hear better?

Thanks for the PEACH! :smallbiggrin:

I don't get it :smalltongue:

Best to refluff it as 'its experience seeps in' or something, it would be more justified to give a wider array of boosts than constant conversation.

My class is just about done, so you'll be able to return it :P

I still need to add SR, and pick a level for the mind-affecting immunities. It looks a little empty on the table, too, though it gets defences every level.

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-20, 12:02 PM
one more question: Should I add bonus crafting XP similar to an artificer? The "Dragon Blood Elixers" as I am now calling them won't take any xp, and they won't get wonderous item crafting (in general, possibly a few specific items instead), but they will get to make magic weapons and armor out of dragon parts, plus infusions.

I'm also not sure how I want them to be fluff-wise. At first I was thinking something barbaric and illiterate, but how would that work with an artificer class? Should I let them substitute int for wis on craft rolls?

Xhosant
2014-08-20, 12:04 PM
one more question: Should I add bonus crafting XP similar to an artificer? The "Dragon Blood Elixers" as I am now calling them won't take any xp, and they won't get wonderous item crafting (in general, possibly a few specific items instead), but they will get to make magic weapons and armor out of dragon parts, plus infusions.

I'm also not sure how I want them to be fluff-wise. At first I was thinking something barbaric and illiterate, but how would that work with an artificer class? Should I let them substitute int for wis on craft rolls?

You could give a dragon-part-only xp pool.

Substitution sounds wise.

Xhosant
2014-08-20, 12:42 PM
Ok, Scalebound Knight is ready, if anyone wants to peach.

I'm extra worried about the dragon companion's balancing. Also do note, the SR can be lowered at-will, by lowering the entirety of the class feature as a free, immediate action.

Carl
2014-08-20, 04:12 PM
Okay Spell lists and SLA stuff are in, still got Atronach's to integrate, Wards to sort out, and Mask Enchantment table to write, but i think i'm ready for at least a partial review if anyone's willing.

Carl
2014-08-21, 09:11 PM
Ok got everything but the Mask Enchantment Table done. That is going to be, (to borrow a delightful little phrase), a copper plated bitch. That said at this point's i'd really, really really appreciate some feedback.

Morph Bark
2014-08-22, 07:17 AM
It's a shame the coding chance messed up so many of the old entries. I noticed that only the last two and the current one have the new coding. Are there any old entries that have been updated with the new coding, either in the entry threads or elsewhere?

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-22, 07:36 AM
I updated all of mine (save for quasi-warrior) I gave all of the ones that placed their own threads in my signature.

sirpercival
2014-08-22, 10:42 AM
It's a shame the coding chance messed up so many of the old entries. I noticed that only the last two and the current one have the new coding. Are there any old entries that have been updated with the new coding, either in the entry threads or elsewhere?
Most of my stuff is on mmx with updated versions anyway.

Inevitability
2014-08-22, 11:03 AM
This is my first time participating in this, so I am not really aiming for a prize. I just want to see if I like this contest.

Xhosant
2014-08-22, 11:30 AM
This is my first time participating in this, so I am not really aiming for a prize. I just want to see if I like this contest.

Welcome aboard!

Jormengand
2014-08-22, 11:32 AM
To be honest, I never imagined I'd come second in the last one, and this one's not likely to win anything either. But it's fun to do, and more fun when you get to play it.

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-22, 11:38 AM
This is my first time participating in this, so I am not really aiming for a prize. I just want to see if I like this contest.
Newcomers are always welcome here. And don't worry about winning, just make whatever you want the best you can. That's what I do.

sirpercival
2014-08-22, 11:44 AM
To be honest, I never imagined I'd come second in the last one, and this one's not likely to win anything either. But it's fun to do, and more fun when you get to play it.

I wish I had minions to play my stuff... there's too much for any one person. :smalltongue:

Jormengand
2014-08-22, 11:47 AM
I wish I had minions to play my stuff... there's too much for any one person. :smalltongue:

We should make games in the PBP section for people to test out the BCC classes. :smalltongue:

Carl
2014-08-22, 12:01 PM
We should make games in the PBP section for people to test out the BCC classes.

I'd love to hear what people would do with my stuff in actual gaming tbh :).

Jormengand
2014-08-22, 12:02 PM
Incidentally, do you think I should make all of the spells cantrips and then rely on the person to spellshift them up to get higher-level effects? Because that would be cool. :smalltongue:

Carl
2014-08-22, 12:03 PM
@Jormengand: 'm about to go through the scalebound knight for Xoshant, but subject to time before bed e.t.c. i'll take a look for you next.

Xhosant
2014-08-22, 12:05 PM
@Jormengand: 'm about to go through the scalebound knight for Xoshant, but subject to time before bed e.t.c. i'll take a look for you next.

*happy dance*

Carl
2014-08-22, 01:10 PM
@Xhosant: Ok quick review time:

1. What does "This bonus behaves as a shield bonus (in regards to stacking with other armor, including natural armor, not working when flat-footed etc.) but is otherwise Natural Armor." Actually mean? You start talking about a shield bonus then go off about it being a natural armor bonus. Which is it? Where you trying to say something else? E.t.c.?

2. If i understand Scale Hoard right it lets you select a verity of magical effects for Armor, Shield, and Weapon based on a pre-stored treasure amount and apply them yes? First, how do multiple enchantments function, is there a cost multiplier or any kind of stacking cap other than the cost? Second, many effects have a minimum Enhancement bonus, is this requirement waived, or does adding the enchantments add Enhancement Bonus's to the item equal to the minimum required. For that matter can you use the hoard solely to add an Enhancement bonus?

3. Scalebound Embrace really worries me power wise. First there can be sources of armor bonus other than actual armor which means you could get a lot of stacking. Second it allows you to gain full Dex bonus, so combining the two allows insane armor stacking. This alone without the Hoard or the Dex bonus involved makes AC 40 possible. Throw on the 10 point shield bonus from Scale Guard and your looking at 50, throw in hoard/magic items and a Dex value in the upper region and something in the upper 60's might be possible. That's just far too high by normal balance standards. Really given normal Plate is 8AC and given it's Dex factor you really should be looking at a max of half class level. Letting them get Dex to that would make their AC potent without going overboard IMO.

The Spell Resistance is much the same. 10+Class level means a non-caster level cheesing caster has about a 50% sucsess rate. Throw on a semi decent dex modifier and he's going to struggle to get any spells on you at all and even cheesing characters are going to struggle. Getting Dex in the place of the 10 base would be cool. but not in addition.

Also i see no reason not to have this permanently active.

4.Did you mean cease instead of sieze? My only real complaint here is the random turn limit, it could make things very luck dependent.

5. Like most such abilities this is going to be severly limited because you have to be so close to the ally to help. Also do you need scalbound Gaurd active to use this?

Also you state at the top an AoO is required, but further down state one is not needed for spells or ranged attack's, also you never specify how it works with spells. Also you state that iterative then have to target the Knight. s this on a success or always? And then you talk about continuing till disarmed. Unclear on what you mean by this.

6. My biggest issue here is that unless there are some very closely spaced encounters this is going to be permanently active in every encounter. Sure the fact that you can get caught with it down and you could get situations with several encounters per hour does mean it's not quite equivalent to always active, but from a power PoV always active also wouldn't be especially overpowered. It seems like a lot of excess book-keeping tbh that not strictly needed. Bit of personal preference there mind.

7. Flights absolutely worth a fair amount of power, but necessary too. Looks fine balance wise.

8. I'd ditch the tower shield rules, your only really going to use it for the concealment so have it grant a fixed % of concealment is simpler. Again the big issue here is that it requires you to be on top of allies to help out.

9. Okay i honestly have no idea what thunder of the dragons is so i can't comment here.

Aside from a lack of background my biggest issue is that despite a strong tanky focus the scalebound knight has the same issue as many tank homebrews before it. It has to be virtually on top of an ally to help out. In practice i'd say a distance of around 60ft is a good value to shoot for in terms of distance you can help out at to allow for a wide range of fellow PC builds and encounter types. Not sure how to achieve that for the other stuff but i'd change Brilliant Burst to requiring a standard action to activate instead of replacing an attack and applying it effects to every hostile in a radius burst emanation centered on the Knight with a range of 50ft + 5ft per two class levels.

Also some filled out fluff e.t.c. wouldn't hurt.


*happy dance*

Your welcome. Any chance i could ask you to look at mine. I know a pretty big important piece is still missing but i'd still appreciate a glance over for obvious big issues.

Xhosant
2014-08-22, 05:26 PM
@Xhosant: Ok quick review time:

1. What does "This bonus behaves as a shield bonus (in regards to stacking with other armor, including natural armor, not working when flat-footed etc.) but is otherwise Natural Armor." Actually mean? You start talking about a shield bonus then go off about it being a natural armor bonus. Which is it? Where you trying to say something else? E.t.c.?


Ok, i had misunderstood the way natural armor stacks. I should simplify that to 'shield bonus' and note Embrace doesn't stack with any armor.

2. If i understand Scale Hoard right it lets you select a verity of magical effects for Armor, Shield, and Weapon based on a pre-stored treasure amount and apply them yes? First, how do multiple enchantments function, is there a cost multiplier or any kind of stacking cap other than the cost? Second, many effects have a minimum Enhancement bonus, is this requirement waived, or does adding the enchantments add Enhancement Bonus's to the item equal to the minimum required. For that matter can you use the hoard solely to add an Enhancement bonus?


You just set up a magical armor, shield and weapon, minus the actual objects. Anything that went still goes otherwise. I'll go clarify.

3. Scalebound Embrace really worries me power wise. First there can be sources of armor bonus other than actual armor which means you could get a lot of stacking. Second it allows you to gain full Dex bonus, so combining the two allows insane armor stacking. This alone without the Hoard or the Dex bonus involved makes AC 40 possible. Throw on the 10 point shield bonus from Scale Guard and your looking at 50, throw in hoard/magic items and a Dex value in the upper region and something in the upper 60's might be possible. That's just far too high by normal balance standards. Really given normal Plate is 8AC and given it's Dex factor you really should be looking at a max of half class level. Letting them get Dex to that would make their AC potent without going overboard IMO.


I balanced their natural armor on an average of dragons, up to CR 20. Maybe I went a little overboard. The clarification above should cut your estimates by 10, and I think I'll drop it to 1/level and not stacking with the Guard. That should get you a base of 30, plus dex, plus magic items. That should keep it in line.

Then again, you're just breaking even with full bab, your dex versus their to-hit, and I think magic items can push attack more than AC. I'll think on that, but some tuning is needed.

The Spell Resistance is much the same. 10+Class level means a non-caster level cheesing caster has about a 50% sucsess rate. Throw on a semi decent dex modifier and he's going to struggle to get any spells on you at all and even cheesing characters are going to struggle. Getting Dex in the place of the 10 base would be cool. but not in addition.


See, it was the cheesing ones i was thinking about :smallbiggrin: but yes, that may be pushing it. If I make it non-stacking with bonuses, 3/4th progress? That sounds better.

Or I could drop DEX and be done with it... that means a 'fair' 55% chance for the non-boosted caster.

Also i see no reason not to have this permanently active.


Well, it is your armor. Only, you must put armor on in advance. This one, you can afford not to wear until you actually see an enemy. But under normal combat, it's to be used full-time.

4.Did you mean cease instead of sieze? My only real complaint here is the random turn limit, it could make things very luck dependent.


It's not your main means of protection, and I wanted to allude to breath attacks :smallbiggrin: Think it's a fair trade-off for infinite uses, compared to the Knight.

5. Like most such abilities this is going to be severly limited because you have to be so close to the ally to help. Also do you need scalbound Gaurd active to use this?

Also you state at the top an AoO is required, but further down state one is not needed for spells or ranged attack's, also you never specify how it works with spells. Also you state that iterative then have to target the Knight. s this on a success or always? And then you talk about continuing till disarmed. Unclear on what you mean by this.


Ok, so someone makes a full melee attack, or an arrow barrage, targeting the squishy to the right of me. In the 2nd case, I spend an AoO to try and block the first arrow. Success or not, I can keep trying to block his other arrows for free. In the first case, I spend an AoO to try and block the first blow. if I succeed, the enemy is disarmed. If I failed, he may disarm me as every other disarm roll(but I get bonuses). The rest of his attacks target me, and again are treated as if I were trying to disarm them. In retrospect, I don't need the 'attack me' bit.

I meant that, if, at any point in the full attack, I get disarmed, he is then free to chop up the squishy.

6. My biggest issue here is that unless there are some very closely spaced encounters this is going to be permanently active in every encounter. Sure the fact that you can get caught with it down and you could get situations with several encounters per hour does mean it's not quite equivalent to always active, but from a power PoV always active also wouldn't be especially overpowered. It seems like a lot of excess book-keeping tbh that not strictly needed. Bit of personal preference there mind.


There's a point there... It was a flavor thing, I'll think on it.

7. Flights absolutely worth a fair amount of power, but necessary too. Looks fine balance wise.

8. I'd ditch the tower shield rules, your only really going to use it for the concealment so have it grant a fixed % of concealment is simpler. Again the big issue here is that it requires you to be on top of allies to help out.


Fixed concealment, right. Makes more sense.

9. Okay i honestly have no idea what thunder of the dragons is so i can't comment here.


Thunder of dragons is equivalent to flock of seep, or murder of crows. Kinda obscure. Will fix.

Aside from a lack of background my biggest issue is that despite a strong tanky focus the scalebound knight has the same issue as many tank homebrews before it. It has to be virtually on top of an ally to help out. In practice i'd say a distance of around 60ft is a good value to shoot for in terms of distance you can help out at to allow for a wide range of fellow PC builds and encounter types. Not sure how to achieve that for the other stuff but i'd change Brilliant Burst to requiring a standard action to activate instead of replacing an attack and applying it effects to every hostile in a radius burst emanation centered on the Knight with a range of 50ft + 5ft per two class levels.


Well, without effort, I could get a threatened area of 15 feet in all directions, and that's a single weapon enhancement. Comparing with Knight, who can just ignore our taunt if you're troublesome to reach, and crusader, who makes it a pain to attack another ally when threatened, he needs allies close instead of enemies.

Also some filled out fluff e.t.c. wouldn't hurt.


Crunch gotta happen, first :smalltongue:

Your welcome. Any chance i could ask you to look at mine. I know a pretty big important piece is still missing but i'd still appreciate a glance over for obvious big issues.

Thanks for it! I'll try to use as much of the peach as possible :smallbiggrin:

I'll look over yours, but tomorrow. Its kinda late again.

bcg737
2014-08-22, 10:31 PM
The astronomer class is very very cool, I want to inject it into my game, but I need the phenomena finished!!!

Temotei
2014-08-23, 01:17 AM
The astronomer class is very very cool, I want to inject it into my game, but I need the phenomena finished!!!

What do you mean? They are finished. I made an astronomer not too long ago, in fact.

Unless you mean on a specific character, in which case, ignore me. :smalltongue:

r2d2go
2014-08-23, 01:51 AM
Oh hey, new thread that I somehow did not notice :smalltongue:

Working on getting my ideas out, once that's done I'll throw it on a table. As before I will PEACH the heck out of people if requested :smallbiggrin:


We should make games in the PBP section for people to test out the BCC classes. :smalltongue:


I'd love to hear what people would do with my stuff in actual gaming tbh :).

Actually, could we set up a game using classes from this thing? Like, just play through a module at the end of each contest, where the people who made something run through with their class (or someone else's). It'd be like an awesome game and testing in one!

Inevitability
2014-08-23, 02:40 AM
As before I will PEACH the heck out of people if requested :smallbiggrin:

I think I'll request a PEACH once my class is finished. The mechanics are pretty weird and I am worried that people may be able to break it easily.


Actually, could we set up a game using classes from this thing? Like, just play through a module at the end of each contest, where the people who made something run through with their class (or someone else's). It'd be like an awesome game and testing in one!

I'd be in if that happened. If a game comes, could I get a link? :smallsmile:

r2d2go
2014-08-23, 02:45 AM
I think I'll request a PEACH once my class is finished. The mechanics are pretty weird and I am worried that people may be able to break it easily.

I'd be in if that happened. If a game comes, could I get a link? :smallsmile:

Sure, on both accounts :smallbiggrin:

Xhosant
2014-08-23, 02:49 AM
As before I will PEACH the heck out of people if requested :smallbiggrin:

Actually, could we set up a game using classes from this thing? Like, just play through a module at the end of each contest, where the people who made something run through with their class (or someone else's). It'd be like an awesome game and testing in one!


Yes, please :D hopefully it's clearer now :)

That kinda happens, inquire with Zaydos. Not that more wouldn't be welcome.

Morph Bark
2014-08-23, 05:41 AM
Most of my stuff is on mmx with updated versions anyway.

Yes, but I expect that with you, Perce. :smalltongue:


I wish I had minions to play my stuff... there's too much for any one person. :smalltongue:

Alas, my group no longer offers testing services. Plus there was way too much to test anyway. I mean you drop one mention of wanting to test homebrew with a group of 7 and thrice that number of people throw all their stuff at you, sheeeeeeshh.

sirpercival
2014-08-23, 05:44 AM
The astronomer class is very very cool, I want to inject it into my game, but I need the phenomena finished!!!

Thank you! Which phenomena did you need finished? I'm happy to take a look if you need more.

Also note that there are now two prestige classes to go along with it :)

Carl
2014-08-23, 01:05 PM
Okay a few responses here.

3. The big issue here is still that there is no reason not to leave it active 100% of the time. It costs you nothing to do. The fact that scalebound guard doesn't stack does help keep it under control, though it's still going to average a good 10 points or so more than normal martial type, but that's fine from a balance PoV. Unfortunately scalbound's disadvantage of working like a buckler is a total killer. That alone is such a huge disadvantage that even if Embrace did not exist it would be a situational ability. With it, it's utterly useless because you can get the same AC without ever using it 100% of the time with no downside. But like i said i don't think a 100% uptime of Embrace on it's own is a balance issue as currently written. That why i said make embrace equal to half class level. At that value your still matching a normal characters upper limit without excessive cheesing, and Guard can stack with no balancing issues. It's still be situational, but it will be validly usable.

Also Monster regularly outdo PC's on AC and Attack rolls because A) they don't get the magical attack roll boosters PC's do, and B) many of them rely even more than PC's on Power attack so need the excess to up their damage. It's not a design decision i agree with but if you let AC and/or attack rolls climb too high your in serious danger of stepping all over virtually every martial class ever designed because they do fit within those limits.

Also don't try to match, (as a general rule), extreme levels of optimization unless your class explicitly disallows those levels of optimization. Otherwise the optomizers will just break your class even harder than they do others. And disallowing has to be pretty robust, (see my Dragon Priest, it's casting is treated totally separate from any other casting classes you get for all purposes and it gets a much less forgiving and abusable magic items system), or they'll find a way around it.

Lastly 15 feet without cheesing isn't exactly great, unless the party is all melee types there's going to be some hanging back too far away to help, and even if they are all melee, multiple enemies cans till force a split. Now sure you can cheese it above this. But you should never design a class so it's only workable in a cheese environment. It needs to function in a solid manner in average optimization. A particular issue as well is that if your assuming such optimization your assuming a super limited build choice, which also isn't ideal, one of the things RPG's are supposed to be about is letting a player build a character that suits them. Forcing them to go for specific equipment choices just to make a class work isn't doing that.


I'll look over yours, but tomorrow. Its kinda late again.

I look forward to it.

r2d2go
2014-08-23, 02:02 PM
Yes, please :D hopefully it's clearer now :)

Okay! I'm going to pretend I haven't seen anyone else's evaluation first, then go back and read other people's stuff and give a second evaluation with that in mind. Here's the first:


Dragon Companion: This is really cool, but it definitely feels a little ridiculous. I mean, CR equal to your own means that at some levels, you just doubled yourself, which is certainly too much, but at other levels it starts to drop behind and is hardly useful. Also note that the only CR 2 dragon is the White Wyrmling, so you don't get anything until then, and that's an evil dragon. You also can't coordinate the weak points in the dragon companion with strong points in other class abilities, because dragons vary in CR progression.

One way to help fix this is to make it a sort of Druid progression, except instead of having higher-level companions that lower bonuses, you have higher-level dragons. So, your dragon companion gets +1 HD, some str/dex/cha, bonus spell use, natural armor, and other handy abilities, and then you lose one level of that per CR of your companion.

Also, the fact that losing your companion forces you to go to a certain location, then spend 24 hours alone, and then you still don't have a dragon for weeks, and lose all your class features until a new dragon shows up... It's almost worst than dying, because you force the party to help you through a pretty major sidequest where you are next to useless, and it doesn't even immediately help (you have to wait another week).

See, if you compare this to other companion classes, Paladin loses a mount for a month, but he can pick up another four for cheap, or get one with a spell, or a number of other possibilities. Even though he lost a very useful part of his class abilities, it's nowhere near losing everything, even if he's got a mounted build. A Druid get a companion back after just 24 hours, so it's hardly a loss. A Wizard might lose exp and need a ton of time to get it back, but the familiar itself doesn't do that much and it's traded for ACFs half the time anyway. Hell, if you're afraid of losing it you can just make it hide in a corner and you don't lose anything but a touch-spell delivery service (replaceable with metamagic) and like +3 to a skill. Plus, the Wizard doesn't have to do anything - a year and a day later, it's back.

A fix you could try is having a telepathic bond with a group of dragons, or wherever your first companion came from. Then, you simply negotiate through the bond, and then once you get things done, they teleport a companion to you. Then that grows to full capacity over a week, but you get your class abilities anyway.

Finally, I think there's some wording issues. Are negotiations purely roleplaying? Do you need to make diplomacy checks? Do you get a bonus for offering more than 20% of your hoard? What happens if you take some cash out of the hoard, then negotiate? At least put that it's up to the DM if you don't want this specified. One mistake I think you made is that the CR is limited by your CR, not your level, so a 1-level dip in this gets you a full dragon.

Basically, this is a really cool ability, but it's a huge pain for the party to follow, whether due to imbalance or because the companion died.

Scalebound Guard: Um... okay, free +2 buckler that's a free, immediate action to use. I mean, it's not the most broken thing I've seen (especially since Scalebound Embrace doesn't stack), but you might consider dropping it to +2 (especially since you can enhance it further with Scale Hoard), or moving it further up in progression (since otherwise you can dip for this and a companion).

Scalebound Fortitude: I mean, okay, it's not the end of the world. Honestly though it's a pretty strong X to Y ability at 2nd level, so it has the same dip-power problems as the other abilities. I would move this up, as the rest.

Scale Hoard:I really like this ability :smallbiggrin: It's got flavor, it's useful, it's clear, it's not game breaking and you prevented a good deal of shenanigans that people could do with this. The only criticism I have is, as Scalebound Fortitude, it's early enough that a fighter or warblade could two-level dip in this for what I feel is too much for too little. Plus, even though just this is pretty strong for a dip, leaving this (and only this) at 2nd level as well as Dragon Companion (based on this class's level, not CR) would make a good but not utterly fantastic dip, while keeping the power level scaling well.

Scalebound Embrace:Woah. Level to armor class? This is a very strong ability that scales hilariously but doesn't do much to start, which probably isn't what you want. However, do note that unlike the Scalebound Guard, this has no penalty for throwing it on and off at will, so you're basically getting full-movement speed, no armor check penalty, no max dex bonus armor that gets to +20. Which is pretty crazy.

I would make it a swift action at the very least, to prevent switching on-and-off shenanigans. I'd also make it start at +4 (still an improved Chain Shirt) and gain +1 every three levels (since this stacks with Scale Hoard, you can still get +15 AC).

Brilliant Burst: This gets all the mechanical goodness of Scale Hoard but the flavor is pretty meh. Honestly, making it a draconic roar and taunting people in a 30 foot cone seems like it'd be more flavorful, similarly powered and serve the same function. That's just an idea though, whatever works (since it's definitely not unbalanced) :smalltongue:

Challenge of the Scalebound: Similar to Brilliant Burst, but with less mechanic balance and more flavor. This feels more like a intercepting block than a challenge. Also, by how this is written it sounds like you can somehow disarm an enemy standing 20 feet away if they have 15 foot reach and you have 10 foot reach. Finally, at worst this means your allies are getting +3 AC for standing adjacent to you. Again, this suffers dip issues.

I would make this an actual challenge (standard or move action), and challenged enemies provoke AoOs by standing near you. Then, you get the same benefits as before, except that you don't grant shield bonus on a failure (but on a success, the shield bonus applies for the rest of an iterative). That seems more flavorful, more sensical in terms of reach, and more balanced.

As a last note this is also pretty crazy dip status. Spread out your class abilities, jeez! :smalltongue:

Scalebound Flight: Works for me :smallbiggrin:

Scalebound Wall: This is fine, though I definitely would make it so you cannot attack while doing this. I mean, the image I'm getting is that your wings turn into an interposing wall, and then you fight through the wall what is happening argh. Also, because of aforementioned images of hilarious stretchiness, I'd make it allies within 5 or 10 feet that get the cover.

Leading the Thunder: Cool capstone, though I think you need to be more specific. Would this get you potentially thousands of dragons? What happens to all the 1st level followers (since there are no CR 1 dragons)?


Basically, spread out your dang class abilities :smallwink: with a few clarifications, a few nerfs, a flavor change or two, and putting your class abilities across 20 levels instead of 90% in the first five, you'd have a balanced, flavorful class :smallbiggrin:



That kinda happens, inquire with Zaydos. Not that more wouldn't be welcome.

Hm, it sounds like with the number of people interested (and who didn't know about it) we might want to make another :smalltongue: but I'll definitely ask him about that, thanks! :smallsmile:

Xhosant
2014-08-23, 03:19 PM
Okay a few responses here.

3. The big issue here is still that there is no reason not to leave it active 100% of the time. It costs you nothing to do. The fact that scalebound guard doesn't stack does help keep it under control, though it's still going to average a good 10 points or so more than normal martial type, but that's fine from a balance PoV. Unfortunately scalbound's disadvantage of working like a buckler is a total killer. That alone is such a huge disadvantage that even if Embrace did not exist it would be a situational ability. With it, it's utterly useless because you can get the same AC without ever using it 100% of the time with no downside. But like i said i don't think a 100% uptime of Embrace on it's own is a balance issue as currently written. That why i said make embrace equal to half class level. At that value your still matching a normal characters upper limit without excessive cheesing, and Guard can stack with no balancing issues. It's still be situational, but it will be validly usable.


As built, the class is not a tank before third level. Before the Embrace, it's just a very good buckler to make up for your low armor (is -1 that bad?) After it, it's just used for stuff that scale off of it. And maybe as a situational-enchant-carrier.
Embrace is meant for 100% uptime, its the class' core feature.

Also don't try to match, (as a general rule), extreme levels of optimization unless your class explicitly disallows those levels of optimization. Otherwise the optomizers will just break your class even harder than they do others.


In retrospect, that makes sense :smalltongue:

Lastly 15 feet without cheesing isn't exactly great, unless the party is all melee types there's going to be some hanging back too far away to help, and even if they are all melee, multiple enemies cans till force a split. Now sure you can cheese it above this. But you should never design a class so it's only workable in a cheese environment. It needs to function in a solid manner in average optimization. A particular issue as well is that if your assuming such optimization your assuming a super limited build choice, which also isn't ideal, one of the things RPG's are supposed to be about is letting a player build a character that suits them. Forcing them to go for specific equipment choices just to make a class work isn't doing that.


First of all, it wasn't 'without cheesing', rather 'with a +1 enchant'. I just considered reach a good thing for the optimisation to support. Actually, I'll make ranged intercepts work in trajectory too (in other words, you offer 'cover' with the entirety on your reach to everyone behind you). Would boosting melee reach with class features be a stretch?

I look forward to it.


Stuff been odd, but I'll get to it :P


Okay! I'm going to pretend I haven't seen anyone else's evaluation first, then go back and read other people's stuff and give a second evaluation with that in mind. Here's the first:


Why, thank you :smallbiggrin:


Dragon Companion: This is really cool, but it definitely feels a little ridiculous. I mean, CR equal to your own means that at some levels, you just doubled yourself, which is certainly too much, but at other levels it starts to drop behind and is hardly useful. Also note that the only CR 2 dragon is the White Wyrmling, so you don't get anything until then, and that's an evil dragon. You also can't coordinate the weak points in the dragon companion with strong points in other class abilities, because dragons vary in CR progression.


It will need work, it's one of my key worries. Thanks!

One way to help fix this is to make it a sort of Druid progression, except instead of having higher-level companions that lower bonuses, you have higher-level dragons. So, your dragon companion gets +1 HD, some str/dex/cha, bonus spell use, natural armor, and other handy abilities, and then you lose one level of that per CR of your companion.

Also, the fact that losing your companion forces you to go to a certain location, then spend 24 hours alone, and then you still don't have a dragon for weeks, and lose all your class features until a new dragon shows up... It's almost worst than dying, because you force the party to help you through a pretty major sidequest where you are next to useless, and it doesn't even immediately help (you have to wait another week).


It's easier than a fallen paladin :smallbiggrin: and basically, since the flavor has you in a pact to raise the fledgling (fluff incoming :P), it's kinda the same. Still, no matter how the dragon died, it's rather easy to resurrect. It is strictly speaking a better alternative to you dying, and I was considering the event as of equal significance.

[...]

A fix you could try is having a telepathic bond with a group of dragons, or wherever your first companion came from. Then, you simply negotiate through the bond, and then once you get things done, they teleport a companion to you. Then that grows to full capacity over a week, but you get your class abilities anyway.


That, I could work with. A trance or such, that is the equivalent of going there in all ways save for the trek :smallbiggrin: Thanks!

Are negotiations purely roleplaying? Do you need to make diplomacy checks? Do you get a bonus for offering more than 20% of your hoard? What happens if you take some cash out of the hoard, then negotiate? At least put that it's up to the DM if you don't want this specified. One mistake I think you made is that the CR is limited by your CR, not your level, so a 1-level dip in this gets you a full dragon.


No, yes, no, it says 'at its highest' for that reason exactly (even if you lost all of it), and good catch. Clarifications :smallsigh:

[...]

Scalebound Guard: Um... okay, free +2 buckler that's a free, immediate action to use. I mean, it's not the most broken thing I've seen (especially since Scalebound Embrace doesn't stack), but you might consider dropping it to +2 (especially since you can enhance it further with Scale Hoard), or moving it further up in progression (since otherwise you can dip for this and a companion).


Dips are an issue :smalleek: I was considering it as a placeholder till Embrace (you're stuck with medium armor till then, after all). Maybe I'll just drop it.

Scalebound Fortitude: I mean, okay, it's not the end of the world. Honestly though it's a pretty strong X to Y ability at 2nd level, so it has the same dip-power problems as the other abilities. I would move this up, as the rest.

Scale Hoard:I really like this ability :smallbiggrin: It's got flavor, it's useful, it's clear, it's not game breaking and you prevented a good deal of shenanigans that people could do with this. The only criticism I have is, as Scalebound Fortitude, it's early enough that a fighter or warblade could two-level dip in this for what I feel is too much for too little. Plus, even though just this is pretty strong for a dip, leaving this (and only this) at 2nd level as well as Dragon Companion (based on this class's level, not CR) would make a good but not utterly fantastic dip, while keeping the power level scaling well.


-.-' dips again. I'm gonna end up going monk on the class and 'no multiclassing' it... WIll consider it.

Scalebound Embrace:Woah. Level to armor class? This is a very strong ability that scales hilariously but doesn't do much to start, which probably isn't what you want. However, do note that unlike the Scalebound Guard, this has no penalty for throwing it on and off at will, so you're basically getting full-movement speed, no armor check penalty, no max dex bonus armor that gets to +20. Which is pretty crazy.


You get dex/no penalty/full movement with it on, anyway :smallbiggrin:

I would make it a swift action at the very least, to prevent switching on-and-off shenanigans. I'd also make it start at +4 (still an improved Chain Shirt) and gain +1 every three levels (since this stacks with Scale Hoard, you can still get +15 AC).


Freedom in and out is basically part of the package. Especially considering friendly casters and SR. And this is the cornerstone, I can't go any lower without dropping its focus :smallsigh:

Brilliant Burst: This gets all the mechanical goodness of Scale Hoard but the flavor is pretty meh. Honestly, making it a draconic roar and taunting people in a 30 foot cone seems like it'd be more flavorful, similarly powered and serve the same function. That's just an idea though, whatever works (since it's definitely not unbalanced) :smalltongue:


Maybe I'll add it as a future option, but the source material says 'green glow on arrow' :smalltongue:

Challenge of the Scalebound: Similar to Brilliant Burst, but with less mechanic balance and more flavor. This feels more like a intercepting block than a challenge. Also, by how this is written it sounds like you can somehow disarm an enemy standing 20 feet away if they have 15 foot reach and you have 10 foot reach. Finally, at worst this means your allies are getting +3 AC for standing adjacent to you. Again, this suffers dip issues.


I wouldn't worry about this one. Crusader 1 gets you +4, without expending an AoO. Also, yes you can, because if the tips of your weapons can reach the same spot, they can touch and/or fence, right? :smallbiggrin:

[...]

As a last note this is also pretty crazy dip status. Spread out your class abilities, jeez! :smalltongue:


Yea, yea... :smallsigh:

Scalebound Flight: Works for me :smallbiggrin:

Scalebound Wall: This is fine, though I definitely would make it so you cannot attack while doing this. I mean, the image I'm getting is that your wings turn into an interposing wall, and then you fight through the wall what is happening argh. Also, because of aforementioned images of hilarious stretchiness, I'd make it allies within 5 or 10 feet that get the cover.


'as a tower shield' is just that: you give up on attacks. Are tower shields THAT obscure?

Leading the Thunder: Cool capstone, though I think you need to be more specific. Would this get you potentially thousands of dragons? What happens to all the 1st level followers (since there are no CR 1 dragons)?


They are dragon eggs. In catapults. You launch them and wait till they hatch.

But yea, I didn't think through the whole 'big CR steps' thing. This needs a redesign.



Basically, spread out your dang class abilities :smallwink: with a few clarifications, a few nerfs, a flavor change or two, and putting your class abilities across 20 levels instead of 90% in the first five, you'd have a balanced, flavorful class :smallbiggrin:


On it! I hope...

Hm, it sounds like with the number of people interested (and who didn't know about it) we might want to make another :smalltongue: but I'll definitely ask him about that, thanks! :smallsmile:


If it's not another Sinister Spire, I'm in!

Nothing wrong with Sinister Spire, but I've been spoilered :smalltongue:

So apparently spoiler-in-spoiler doesn't count as characters, and now here I am white-texting...

Zaydos
2014-08-23, 04:24 PM
Question: Is it alright if I mention the class I'm making for this (name is still WiP since I was going to call it Dragon Priest, current appellation is Dragonsoul Acolyte but will be hitting the thesaurus before I finalize it) in another thread to ask people which dragons they'd like to see it as having options to get powers from? Was thinking about reviving my personal magnus opus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?169209-30-New-Dragons-%28more-true-dragons-than-the-draconomicon%29) and thought it might be a good way to kick off deciding which dragons to update the tables of first by letting people vote for their favorite 10/which should have class features added for the class.

Teaser: Going to have a similar thematic background as Dragon Totem Shaman (worship dragons, choose a specific dragon at 1st level) and chassis (medium BAB, good Fort and Will) and breath weapon with a 1d4 round recharge time, but hopefully that's where the resemblance ends. Approximately half casting (full CL but not gaining 5th level spells till 18th), spontaneous casting from a wide list with a spell point system (4 points for highest 2 levels, 2 points for lower level ones, 1 point for 1st level ones at 18th level+), the ability to assume draconic forms, half-dragon template over 20 levels and a series of class features which are based off of their chosen dragon (including energy resistance, and potentially a non-damaging breath weapon, the ability to hide in plain sight in swamps, etc). Also due to Incarnum Dragon this will be my first Meldshaping class if you choose to go that route.

Carl
2014-08-23, 06:26 PM
@Xhosant & R2D2Go: Gonna respond to both of you here since i want to comment on R2D2Go's stuff to you Xhosant as well as your replies to me.

First if that's your intent for Guard that's fine, i'd also have to say i don;t see an issue with the current AC setup of it. Heavy Shields are downright worthless despite giving +2AC. +3 is probably the minimum required to make using it at all worth it for anyone, and that's despite the quick on/off capability.

Also i mistyped, when i said "works like a buckler" i meant "non-stacking". Brain fart.

I thought you meant spiked chain for the 15ft reach, forgotten the enchantment it's that forgettable. And putting in reach modifiers would absolutely be a good idea IMO, just remember to specify they increase the natural reach, (so you don't end up with an inner zone next to you that's not covered, having allies stand there isn't likely a lot of the time but having a hole there isn't a great thing pithier.


A Fallen paladin just needs an atonement spell really with good roleplay. Also the Paladins super harsh code is considered one of the class's biggest issues. I didn't really go into the companion because i'm not awesome at judging that sort of thing btw.


Dips are an issue, but that's why making as much stuff scale with Scalebound Knight levels rather than character level is key. Whilst i usually use the class name i believe "class level" is an acceptable substitute terminology in most cases, (if arguable by RAW).

somebody27else
2014-08-23, 07:55 PM
Scalebound Guard (Ex): As a free, immediate action, grows (or dismisses) exceptionally thick scales on one forearm and hand, giving a shield bonus of 3 points, +1 per 4 levels after that. It is mildly awkward, behaving as a buckler in regards to using a weapon with that hand (and does not offer an AC bonus after attacking with that hand, even if the scales are grown afterwards).
What if I wear a buckler while using this? Do I get double bonuses?

Carl
2014-08-23, 08:26 PM
Shield bonus's don't stack.

p.s. anyone else who want's to look over mine is welcome to give feedback *Hint, Hint* :smallyuk:.

r2d2go
2014-08-24, 12:17 AM
Shield bonus's don't stack.

p.s. anyone else who want's to look over mine is welcome to give feedback *Hint, Hint* :smallyuk:.

Would you like a second run through? :smalltongue: I figured I'd give you some time to update/fix before going in again.

Edit: I'm up to 8 pages and what is essentially four full class ability lists for my class, and the first thing I think is "dang, I'll have to make a new post for the class-revamp ACF." I'm pretty sure whatever Zaydos has is contagious - it got me and Beelzebub.

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-24, 06:40 AM
If I wanted to put cure spells on an infusion list, how would I phrase that those particular infusions do not need to be cast on an item?

MrNobody
2014-08-24, 07:13 AM
Dragon Dancer is finally complete as well as the list of new feats i made for him!

If someone could PEACH it would be really appreciated!:smallwink::smallwink::smallwink:

Carl
2014-08-24, 10:24 AM
@jormengand: Promised a lookie so here you go.

1. "All dragon disciple spells have Verbal and Somatic components only, a casting time of one standard action, an instantaneous duration and no save, and allow spell resistance, unless specified otherwise. Many dragon disciple spells do not specify these components." Bit hard to tell what your saying here. I think i know what you mean, but because the spell list is not yet done i can't say for sure.

If i understand right what your saying is that any spell who's SRD listing makes it not conform to the first part of the rule, is instead altered to conform to it, but some spells will have a note below the spell list entry that modifies this. is that essentially correct?

2. You say that damage increase's from bard music works for momentum building, but as far as i can tell there's no mention of bardic music as a class ability in the class table, (not gone through the whole class yet, reviewing as i go), so it seems out of place, also what about buff spells?

3. Ok are you saying that he gains full iterative attacks with each of the two natural weapon attacks and as primary attack's he gains full strength bonus to them? Powerful but probably not a deal breaker.

Also really recommend you change the leveling improvement from "equivalent to one size category larger" to "Normal weapon progression for a weapon one size category larger, this does not change the actual size of the claws however" otherwise creatures of Large or Larger size are going to cap on your size table before they hit 20.

Also i'd make this class feature increase the size of existing Claw/Bite attacks, (if those attacks are allready equal or better than these values), by 1 category instead of doing nothing, getting that as a racial is usually worth a +1LA all of it's own and is usually a separate class feature of it's own for classes, so hurting it by not improving it puts those race's/multi-classes behind other options mixed with this class which is unfair.

4. In the section on Inertia you have this line "However, he can only gain, and use, momentum while in combat." I presume momentum is supposed to be Inertia?

5. Can the extra AC be added after your opponent has made an attack roll? Also did you mean "can only be re-rolled once through the use of inertia." (italics is my addition). You should probably also add a statement about no more than one re-roll of any single die roll regardless of source of the re-roll.

6. Spellshifting is interesting, but i'm not sure how useful it is as the only significant difference is DC and there's a metamagic for that so really it's a free copy of the Heighten metamagic feat, (and that would be an easier way to deal with it TBH).

7. That's a lot of ability score bonus's, if this wasn't stacking with items it wouldn't raise any red flag's. As is that's incredibly powerful. I really don't know how to judge this balance wise but i'm very so-so about this one.

8. What's the maneuverability of the wings. Also are the wing primary or secondary weapons, and if secondary do you intend to give a free multi-attack feat, (i'd recommend it). Also regardless of status what's is the strength modifier, actual dragons have a non-standard one for wings i believe.

9. Okay seriously this is really, really powerful. I know several of the effects of the template are not gained because they're class features but your still talking some nice trait's, some nice immunity's and some enormous stat boosts. The stat boosts along are worth 1 and a bit LA IMO, throw in the immunity's and traits and your still looking at 2 levels of class features in one class level.

10. Is the tail attack primary or secondary. Also regardless of status what's is the strength modifier, actual dragons have a non-standard one for wings i believe.

11. Hmm don't know a thing about those moves, and without the spell list i can't see how powerful the spell slots would be.

12. Ahhh right, i mistook this for part of the momentum system. So it's totally custom? Interesting.

13. I can't see anyone not spell shifting the first one.the 3rd effect produces a question, when you say 1D6/level do you mean spell level or class level, and what other classes stack with tis one for that purpose if the latter.

14. When you say D15 for spells, i assume this applies only to spells with somatic components. The first and second effects are identical. Also in the last effects case, what about creatures that can breath water, by RAW they'd begin to drown too.

15. Can't say much on the specifics without more detail.

Hope that helps.

@r2d2go: if no one else pitches in sure, especially interested in a review of the Atronach's. Hopefully the more formal layout won't be as confusing for you as my PM wall of text was.

Carl
2014-08-24, 10:25 AM
@MrNobody: Gonna take a brief breather, will try to get round to it this evening.

Xhosant
2014-08-24, 10:42 AM
What if I wear a buckler while using this? Do I get double bonuses?

It's a shield bonus. What if you wear a buckler on a buckler? :smalltongue:

Jormengand
2014-08-24, 11:24 AM
@jormengand: Promised a lookie so here you go.

1. "All dragon disciple spells have Verbal and Somatic components only, a casting time of one standard action, an instantaneous duration and no save, and allow spell resistance, unless specified otherwise. Many dragon disciple spells do not specify these components." Bit hard to tell what your saying here. I think i know what you mean, but because the spell list is not yet done i can't say for sure.

If i understand right what your saying is that any spell who's SRD listing makes it not conform to the first part of the rule, is instead altered to conform to it, but some spells will have a note below the spell list entry that modifies this. is that essentially correct?

Well, they don't exactly have SRD listings, but essentially yes. If you look at Number One: Strike, then you will see that it is missing most of these fields.


2. You say that damage increase's from bard music works for momentum building, but as far as i can tell there's no mention of bardic music as a class ability in the class table, (not gone through the whole class yet, reviewing as i go), so it seems out of place, also what about buff spells?

The point is that you can get bonuses from bardic music without being a bard, but you can't get SA dice without being a class that gets SA. If you can get your hands on that damage without multiclassing, it gives you momentum.


3. Ok are you saying that he gains full iterative attacks with each of the two natural weapon attacks and as primary attack's he gains full strength bonus to them? Powerful but probably not a deal breaker.

I like my combat people to be actually competent in combat.


Also really recommend you change the leveling improvement from "equivalent to one size category larger" to "Normal weapon progression for a weapon one size category larger, this does not change the actual size of the claws however" otherwise creatures of Large or Larger size are going to cap on your size table before they hit 20.

I suppose I could make that slightly clearer.


Also i'd make this class feature increase the size of existing Claw/Bite attacks, (if those attacks are allready equal or better than these values), by 1 category instead of doing nothing, getting that as a racial is usually worth a +1LA all of it's own and is usually a separate class feature of it's own for classes, so hurting it by not improving it puts those race's/multi-classes behind other options mixed with this class which is unfair.
It explicitly does.

"At sixth level, and every fifth level thereafter, the Dragon Disciple's claws and bite deal damage as though they were one size larger, even if they were not directly caused from the class."


4. In the section on Inertia you have this line "However, he can only gain, and use, momentum while in combat." I presume momentum is supposed to be Inertia?

Yes, it is.


5. Can the extra AC be added after your opponent has made an attack roll? Also did you mean "can only be re-rolled once through the use of inertia." (italics is my addition). You should probably also add a statement about no more than one re-roll of any single die roll regardless of source of the re-roll.

Yes and yes. In any case, I don't think that such a statement is necessary, given that you're only going to be re-rolling the die once more than you would have been anyway. If you have infinite re-roll cheese, inertia isn't going to contibute to it.


6. Spellshifting is interesting, but i'm not sure how useful it is as the only significant difference is DC and there's a metamagic for that so really it's a free copy of the Heighten metamagic feat, (and that would be an easier way to deal with it TBH).

That... is categorically wrong. Read the spell description of Number 1: Strike or Number 2: Hold. It's essentially getting five different spells that happen to share a name.


7. That's a lot of ability score bonus's, if this wasn't stacking with items it wouldn't raise any red flag's. As is that's incredibly powerful. I really don't know how to judge this balance wise but i'm very so-so about this one.

Dragon Disciples already got loads of them, and they were honestly sub-par.


8. What's the maneuverability of the wings. Also are the wing primary or secondary weapons, and if secondary do you intend to give a free multi-attack feat, (i'd recommend it). Also regardless of status what's is the strength modifier, actual dragons have a non-standard one for wings i believe.
Average maneuverability, primary as with all DD natural weapons, full str as with all DD natural weapons.


9. Okay seriously this is really, really powerful. I know several of the effects of the template are not gained because they're class features but your still talking some nice trait's, some nice immunity's and some enormous stat boosts. The stat boosts along are worth 1 and a bit LA IMO, throw in the immunity's and traits and your still looking at 2 levels of class features in one class level.

Again, normal DDs got it and no-one took DD because they were terrible.


10. Is the tail attack primary or secondary. Also regardless of status what's is the strength modifier, actual dragons have a non-standard one for wings i believe.
Primary as with all DD natural weapons, full STR as with all DD natural weapons.


11. Hmm don't know a thing about those moves, and without the spell list i can't see how powerful the spell slots would be.
Yeah, it's hard to judge a spell you can't see. :smalltongue:


12. Ahhh right, i mistook this for part of the momentum system. So it's totally custom? Interesting.

Pretty much.


13. I can't see anyone not spell shifting the first one.the 3rd effect produces a question, when you say 1D6/level do you mean spell level or class level, and what other classes stack with tis one for that purpose if the latter.

Well, they might not have the slots available to shift it. I mean caster level, the same way every other spell in existence means caster level.


14. When you say D15 for spells, i assume this applies only to spells with somatic components. The first and second effects are identical. Also in the last effects case, what about creatures that can breath water, by RAW they'd begin to drown too.
I mean spells, which is why I wrote spells. The first and second effects aren't identical: one chooses one and the other does all three. The last one I'll make slightly clearer.


15. Can't say much on the specifics without more detail.

Hope that helps.
Yep, thanks.

Carl
2014-08-24, 12:24 PM
Sorry for the multi-quote but it's the best way to pick out the points i want to address.


It explicitly does.

"At sixth level, and every fifth level thereafter, the Dragon Disciple's claws and bite deal damage as though they were one size larger, even if they were not directly caused from the class."

Sorry i wasn't clear. What i meant was if someone comes in with a race, or multi-class that allready has Bite and Claw attacks of equal or greater potency they should get a step increase at 1st level to componsate for the fact that other class/race lead in's are getting a power increase via the claw and bite they gain.


Again, normal DDs got it and no-one took DD because they were terrible.

You need to go back and re-read the original DD, (that or your misunderstanding what your class as written does, not sure which), they get blindsense s a class feature which takes most of the racial trait's they gain from the template out and the stat bonus's from the template replace the class one's, not stack with them. Yours as written do stack. And that creates an issue where (for example), your looking at a +14 strength modifier before magic items or leveling.

That's huge power wise.


I mean spells, which is why I wrote spells. The first and second effects aren't identical: one chooses one and the other does all three. The last one I'll make slightly clearer.

This makes no sense though. if the spell has no somatic components not being able to move your hands has no effect on your ability to cast it. Even if your completely unable to move as long as you can use the other components, (usually verbal), you can cast.

Jormengand
2014-08-24, 12:48 PM
Sorry i wasn't clear. What i meant was if someone comes in with a race, or multi-class that allready has Bite and Claw attacks of equal or greater potency they should get a step increase at 1st level to componsate for the fact that other class/race lead in's are getting a power increase via the claw and bite they gain.

Eh... I don't really want to do that, because it just screams "Get your natural attacks from somewhere else!"


You need to go back and re-read the original DD, (that or your misunderstanding what your class as written does, not sure which), they get blindsense s a class feature which takes most of the racial trait's they gain from the template out and the stat bonus's from the template replace the class one's, not stack with them. Yours as written do stack. And that creates an issue where (for example), your looking at a +14 strength modifier before magic items or leveling.

That's huge power wise.

No. Dragon disciple gives you the half-dragon template, and also gives you the full-strength breath weapon, the extra +4 STR/+2 CHA, and redundant copies of the LLV, DV and immunities. Why? Because no-where in the text does it ever say it replaces them. There is literally no RAW support for your interpretation. The WotC dragon disciple gets +16 to strength, and other fun stuff.



This makes no sense though. if the spell has no somatic components not being able to move your hands has no effect on your ability to cast it. Even if your completely unable to move as long as you can use the other components, (usually verbal), you can cast.

Yeah, but it might be hard to concentrate while you're being squeezed by a giant squeezy force thing. I mean, you have to take concentration checks in a grapple, so...

Carl
2014-08-24, 12:58 PM
No. Dragon disciple gives you the half-dragon template, and also gives you the full-strength breath weapon, the extra +4 STR/+2 CHA, and redundant copies of the LLV, DV and immunities. Why? Because no-where in the text does it ever say it replaces them. There is literally no RAW support for your interpretation. The WotC dragon disciple gets +16 to strength, and other fun stuff.

How about the fact that it lists everything you get from the template alongside those stat increases. Literally the only thing not listed there is the full stat increases, it instead lists smaller values. Also, (just spotted this), the DD dosen't waive the LA adjustment. I'd still say stacking weould be more powerful than i'd be happy with as a DM even with that factored in.

r2d2go
2014-08-24, 01:02 PM
If I wanted to put cure spells on an infusion list, how would I phrase that those particular infusions do not need to be cast on an item?

One thing that could work is putting a * next to each spell that doesn't need to be cast on an item, then put a note at the bottom that says "*does not need to be cast on an item."

Also, I'll go ahead and look over Jormengand's and Mr. Nobody's... I'll put that up in a bit :smalltongue:

Okay, Jormengand:


Anything I don't note is something I like as is.

Claws and Bite: This is definitely good, as long as "full attack with each" doesn't count outside, secondary weapons. You might want to change "all his attacks" to "these attacks" to clarify, if so (and you probably don't want to give them five full attacks a round :smalltongue:)

Inertia: This is a nice ability, but the "skill check" part needs to be changed a bit. There's plenty of skill checks that use free actions or no action, and some are clearly used in combat, which would instantly give you a whole lot of Inertia. I'm imagining a Dragon Disciple making a hundred tiny hops with Jump and then smashing someone's face in :smalltongue:

Wings: I might have missed something, but do you actually mention Maneuverability at all?

Number One: Strike - Prone is a much worse condition than pushed back 5 feet (applies penalties, move action that provokes AoOs to stand up) - I would add "and knocked prone" to all of the higher level versions.

...That's it! Good class :smallbiggrin: I like it!

Xhosant
2014-08-24, 01:03 PM
Eh... I don't really want to do that, because it just screams "Get your natural attacks from somewhere else!"

Give'em a cap, then. Eevry time the attack increases, add the 'to a maximum of xdy'. That way, they are not punished early for choosing a class balanced with natural attacks, and at the last 3-4 levels they can opt to accept the (now tiny) nerf or multiclass the last couple.

Zaydos
2014-08-24, 01:15 PM
Just reposting a question so it doesn't get lost:

Question: Is it alright if I mention the class I'm making for this (name is still WiP since I was going to call it Dragon Priest, current appellation is Dragonsoul Acolyte but will be hitting the thesaurus before I finalize it) in another thread to ask people which dragons they'd like to see it as having options to get powers from? Was thinking about reviving my personal magnus opus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?169209-30-New-Dragons-%28more-true-dragons-than-the-draconomicon%29) and thought it might be a good way to kick off deciding which dragons to update the tables of first by letting people vote for their favorite 10/which should have class features added for the class.

Progress: Just got to translate things from head to usable mechanics and then I'm done with 1st party non-web enhancement dragons and it'll be onwards to homebrew and 2nd party (i.e. Dragon Magazine) dragons to make it so that you can pick any dragon as your Tutelary Dragon. Also will need to attack the dreaded Thesaurus at some point but I have not yet girded myself for that battle.

Jormengand
2014-08-24, 01:26 PM
How about the fact that it lists everything you get from the template alongside those stat increases. Literally the only thing not listed there is the full stat increases, it instead lists smaller values. And as a DM i would NEVER allow someone to get the full stat boosts alongside the class ones, it's far too powerful.

It's nowhere near powerful enough. You lose ten levels of spellcasting, and gain mediocre bonuses you could have got with a single (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blueDragon) (Okay, sure, the stat boosts aren't quite as much as DD 10, but if you really wanted to add a Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance to add that on, you could.) The point is, those stat bonuses really aren't as impressive as you think they are.

Or you could cut the whole "Dragon" nonsense, PAO yourself into a cornugon devil and laugh because you have 31 strength, and even if the DD had 18 to start with, he still only has 3 more strength than you. Oh, and you're a devil for either 12 hours or a week depending on your INT.

Seriously, taking levels in Dragon Disciple sucks, and you want to take away some of the few things they do get? Jeez.

r2d2go
2014-08-24, 01:58 PM
Second post for Dragon Dancer:


Draconic Dance: My first thought was "Okay, continuous but minor stat boosts and a minor penalty. Sure." But then I saw that it fatigues as rage. "Wait, what?" Seriously, you don't need to do that, at least for the first level dance. Even looking at the choreographies, you don't need that. Now, if this is 1/encounter and not /day (I wasn't sure since you mention both), it's better, but still, you don't need fatigue.

Choreographies:

Ballet of Claws: This makes the Draconic Dance thing a bit better, since at first level you're getting two attacks when you Full Attack. But the "full-round action to use both" thing is totally unecessary - if you're clarifying, it doesn't need clarification, and if you're nerfing it so you can't use it with a primary/manufactured weapon, you don't need to. Seriously, this is like 1d4+2 damage with -5 to attack at best. Compare to Whirling Frenzy, which gets you +2 to damage, an extra attack (the -2 to attack and +2 to attack cancel), +2 AC and +2 to reflex.

Scaled-skin Dance: A few typos, including "poweri" and that (I'm pretty sure this isn't just a british/US type thing) it's resistance, and not resistence.

On the mechanic side, I like it, but DR/magic is pretty close to useless past low-level. I would definitely scale it (yes, despite dragons not getting more) - Silver and Cold Iron are common ones, Good/Evil/Chaotic/Lawful are also common, Adamantine maybe for the higher levels.

Move of Moves: Only problem with this is that you can't safely fly in dangerous situations without a +14 to your Dance check. Entirely doable, of course, and since it's at 5th level it's probably fine.

Magical Dance: You definitely need to base on CR, not age category. Your spells here vary from 1st to 5th level in one, 2nd level to 6th in another, and 4th level to 7th level in the third. Note that Transmute Rock to Mud and back at will at 7th level is pretty close to at-will, two round save or die.

Hoard Pirouette: Sure, why not :smalltongue:

Blazing Somersaults: Cool, but I'd make it "elemental" rather than "blazing". That's totally personal preference though.

Dance like a man, sense like a dragon: Sure, why not, again. I'd capitalize though, like every other dance before.

Frightful Steps:I would strongly recommend getting rid of the cowering effect - fear is already bad enough, no need to make it worse by giving it another step. Otherwise this is kind of weak but I suppose it's a one-and-done.

Ball of magic negation: Probably okay, though do note that the once/dance thing is basically auto-negation.

Taps of greatness: You should probably throw in a nonstacking rule somewhere in there.

Double-step dance: This is fine, but I would make this fatigued and the normal dance nothing. Honestly the dance itself isn't the problem - some choreographies are a little strong if spammed, but this is easily fixed without screwing over the rest of them by making those fatigue.

Unleash the Dragon: The name change is suggested :smallwink: but a nice, flavorful capstone.

Pretty good, I'd look over it for typos and such though (maybe use a word processor?) The main problem is the noted Choreographies and the fact that at early levels you don't actually want to dance for fear of fatigue.

Carl
2014-08-24, 02:40 PM
@Jormengand: those spells do nothing because they don't stack with the near guaranteed item's. The DD's bonus's do. If they where to stack then a simple 15 base with +2 racial and Belt of giant strength + tome could hit a total strength score of 44 without leveling bonus's. That's a 17 point strength modifier without leveling bonus's. That is significant. The caster stat boosts aren't to sneeze at either, though their not decisive either. If they where non-stacking with item's i'd be far less "OMG OTT" over them because they'd result in a non-typical score only for strength, and not by as much.

Jormengand
2014-08-24, 03:06 PM
@Jormengand: those spells do nothing because they don't stack with the near guaranteed item's.

Magic items resize to fit the wearer. Nothing about being a devil stops you using magic items.

Carl
2014-08-24, 05:18 PM
Tome's don't neither does your base stats. A 16 point bonus + a 15 base + a 2 point racial + a tome is allready a good +8 ahead of the devil. And that's assuming where just talking a +2 racial. If i was setting out to abuse, (particularly your version), i'd go in with a Centaur which would put me 16 ahead, and this is without leveling bonus's.

Not to mention that the various shape altering spells are amongst the most common items on power limiting ban lists so trying to use that as an example of why it's balanced is really really odd.

Jormengand
2014-08-24, 05:30 PM
Tome's don't neither does your base stats. A 16 point bonus + a 15 base + a 2 point racial + a tome is allready a good +8 ahead of the devil. And that's assuming where just talking a +2 racial. If i was setting out to abuse, (particularly your version), i'd go in with a Centaur which would put me 16 ahead, and this is without leveling bonus's.

So...

Remind me why we're optimising strength anyway (to the point of using tomes, which I wasn't aware anyone actually did), when we have so much better stuff to do with our time?

Also, if you're a sorcerer, you can take spells off whatever list you like, so just grab Divine Power to invalidate any bonus a tome might have given the DD anyway.


Not to mention that the various shape altering spells are amongst the most common items on power limiting ban lists so trying to use that as an example of why it's balanced is really really odd.

The point is that one thing - one thing that a core class can do (incidentally, the core class you needed to go into, you guessed it, Dragon Disciple), without opening another book, makes your strength-optimisation (which involves, in the case of this base DD, throwing 13 levels down the sink which could invariably have been used for something more useful) compeletely pointless. In honesty, I don't think that what is essentially a +8 on attack and damage rolls is that overpowered - there's a reason that you can just go ahead and buy a weapon that does 5/8 of that - and if it is, someone can do it better.

Also, there's a reason why you should compare yourself to the high end, and not the low end. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17173749&postcount=14)

Temotei
2014-08-24, 05:30 PM
Magic items resize to fit the wearer. Nothing about being a devil stops you using magic items.

I believe he was referring to bonus type-stacking.

Jormengand
2014-08-24, 05:31 PM
I believe he was referring to bonus type-stacking.

But the bonus from being a devil... uh, isn't a bonus.

Temotei
2014-08-24, 05:45 PM
But the bonus from being a devil... uh, isn't a bonus.

I thought the spells referred to were bull's strength and such.

I could be wrong.

But yeah, DD sucks, in my opinion. If you want to Strength-stack, there are better ways.

Zaydos
2014-08-24, 05:52 PM
Just reposting a question since I think it got lost:

Question: Is it alright if I mention the class I'm making for this (name is still WiP since I was going to call it Dragon Priest, current appellation is Dragonsoul Acolyte but will be hitting the thesaurus before I finalize it) in another thread to ask people which dragons they'd like to see it as having options to get powers from? Was thinking about reviving my personal magnus opus and thought it might be a good way to kick off deciding which dragons to update the tables of first by letting people vote for their favorite 10/which should have class features added for the class.

Progress: I hate translating things into "readable by other creatures" why can't you all just read my mind?

Carl
2014-08-24, 06:46 PM
Gah.


But the bonus from being a devil... uh, isn't a bonus.

The bonus from the spell you suggested is though and that was what the comment that spawned this littile mini thread of the debate was responding to.


So...

Remind me why we're optimising strength anyway (to the point of using tomes, which I wasn't aware anyone actually did), when we have so much better stuff to do with our time?

Also, if you're a sorcerer, you can take spells off whatever list you like, so just grab Divine Power to invalidate any bonus a tome might have given the DD anyway.

Sorcs have a specific spell list the last i looked, and divine power was not on there. Also where optimizing strength because if your taking the core DD your not taking more than 1 level of sorc, there is no situation under which DD levels are better than sorc level until we bring in heavy house ruling, (which admittedly seems to be very common based on the number of T3 houserules threads we see).

The most common would be an ubercharger, but if where bringing yours into it or other homebrew it's because we could have some other class feature from another class that scales with strength modifier, at which point being able to get that far ahead whilst keeping such a good BAB is really handy.


The point is that one thing - one thing that a core class can do (incidentally, the core class you needed to go into, you guessed it, Dragon Disciple), without opening another book, makes your strength-optimisation (which involves, in the case of this base DD, throwing 13 levels down the sink which could invariably have been used for something more useful) compeletely pointless. In honesty, I don't think that what is essentially a +8 on attack and damage rolls is that overpowered - there's a reason that you can just go ahead and buy a weapon that does 5/8 of that - and if it is, someone can do it better.

A weapon adds damage, and attack roll modifiers, (incidentally if where comparing it to a weapon the difference is rather larger in your case due to everything being a primary), also a +8 is significant. +8 on a to-hit roll that didn't require a natural 20 to hit is a 40% increase in hit rate, it makes any attack which didn't require a D20 roll of greater than 20 viable instead of eminently ignorable, and turns modest hit chance attacks into near certainties.

The danger really comes though from combining that high strength with other capabilities. That's one of my issues with it on your class. You can get a +12 un-typed modifier by 13th level which just begs that you go find a class that complements this. Hell even building a simple ubercharger combined with enough broad spectrum of side capabilities from other sources could break things.


Also, there's a reason why you should compare yourself to the high end, and not the low end.

Good game design says you never compare to either End of the spectrum. You choose, (based on many, many factors), a balance point and compare to that.

My own falls probably falls somewhere in the T3 range of the tier system, though obviously being personal it doesn't always match exactly. it's natrually open to a degree of stretching either way like anything, some things are hard to pin into traditional balance factors, and i generally assume a level of optimization below the absolute maximum, (i accept given the amount of sourcebooks that somewhere there will be some way to break something, i just try not to make it too easy). But beyond that i tend not to assume a wizard or a sorc going all out as my balance point because they're clearly broken balance wise in how they invalidate not just other weaker classes, but the entire game itself.

That's a bit of a simplification but still.


My worry with yours is that between the way you have natural attacks setup and the easy extreme damage with no real optimization ceiling allowing modest optimization to turn it into one of the best melee classes before we even get to combo's or spells, which are presumably going to make it at least passable in a wide variety of area's. If it didn't have the spells and combo's i wouldn't be worried, i'd dislike the narrow focus of it, but it wouldn't worry me. But with those in place it has the capability to trivialize a number of encounter types whilst still contributing in a strong if less overwhelming fashion to others.


Just reposting a question since I think it got lost:

Question: Is it alright if I mention the class I'm making for this (name is still WiP since I was going to call it Dragon Priest, current appellation is Dragonsoul Acolyte but will be hitting the thesaurus before I finalize it) in another thread to ask people which dragons they'd like to see it as having options to get powers from? Was thinking about reviving my personal magnus opus and thought it might be a good way to kick off deciding which dragons to update the tables of first by letting people vote for their favorite 10/which should have class features added for the class.

Progress: I hate translating things into "readable by other creatures" why can't you all just read my mind?

PM Tometei would be my suggestion.

Temotei
2014-08-24, 08:19 PM
Just reposting a question since I think it got lost:

Question: Is it alright if I mention the class I'm making for this (name is still WiP since I was going to call it Dragon Priest, current appellation is Dragonsoul Acolyte but will be hitting the thesaurus before I finalize it) in another thread to ask people which dragons they'd like to see it as having options to get powers from? Was thinking about reviving my personal magnus opus and thought it might be a good way to kick off deciding which dragons to update the tables of first by letting people vote for their favorite 10/which should have class features added for the class.

Progress: I hate translating things into "readable by other creatures" why can't you all just read my mind?

That should be fine because it hasn't been mentioned in the past--only for this contest. The rule is just to prevent people from naming and getting ideas out for the class in homebrew prior to the contest because it'd be an unfair advantage.


PM Tometei would be my suggestion.

No need; I keep pretty close tabs on this thread.

Carl
2014-08-24, 08:20 PM
You seemed to have missed it that was all ;).

Gonna take a look through Nobody's stuff now :).

Temotei
2014-08-24, 08:38 PM
You seemed to have missed it that was all ;).

Yeah, I just forgot to reply. Got distracted. :smalltongue:

I was originally going to answer with my favorites but I'll save it for the other thread.

Carl
2014-08-24, 08:50 PM
1. Ok i can sorta see why you put the fatigued in given that i can see spellcasters grabbing a one level dip in this for freebie Charisma otherwise. But at the same time both the magnitude of the bonus and the fort penalty make this rather weak on it's own. I'd just ban spellcasting and UMD skill usage all-together and drop both the fort penalty and the exhaustion.

Also decide how you want this used, per encounter or per day. I'd also base the duration of the newly improved Charisma modifer otherwise your going to have MAD issues unless con is heavily used in the other class features.

2. Hmm ballet of claws can certainly be boosted way more than attack rolls normally can and that opens up serous power attack cheese given the number of attacks, i'd say the base damage values are fine if you plan on that, but otherwise i'd maybe disallow power attacks and up the damage somewhat unless i find a non-dance related feature thats a lot more powerful. Also what does he use as his equivelent of full BAB for power attack limits?

3. Hmm like r2d2go said the DR being overcme with magic makes it close to nigh usless in a lot of situations. The Energy resistance is also fairly weak, Energy Resistance 30 is widely available to casters by 11th and by the upper levels they can get away on a limited basis with covering themselves in several energy resistances.

4. Interesting but without two-step dance i'm not sure this would be especially useful.

5. Looks good but which caster list do you use for the spell level, many spells vary depending on list so...

6. Do they get to make saves on subsequent turns to break the fascination, also the DC can easilly be boosted to insane levels. Under normal circumstance without serious racial cheese and within the bounds of core you can't get better than a DC31 for a 9th level spell. if you add a tome and Ioun stone you can push that to 35, but thats about the limit. Getting a dance check of 40 +1D20 should be easy on the other hand, and high is certainly possible.

7. Interesting, but probably not too extreme. That said it's not necessarily something you'd want to use all the time.

8. Very useful vs illusions. The treasure scent is moe fluff but cool all the same.

9. Again the DC scales far too high however the effect is prety weak overall.

10. Cool but given how high such a check is likliy to be i'd make the dispel check automatically succeed.

11. Nice idea but you'll want to add appropriate DC's for creatures of small or smaller stature which could increase 5 or more size in theory. Could be a bit powerful, do weapons scale with the Dancer?

12. Hmm given how early they get versatile dance i'd be tempted to merge it with the base ability, the effect would be virtually the same.

13. Other than r2d2go's note about the negatives the double dance seems fine.

14. Potentially the transform is a littiel on the powerful side, a single CR16 creature is equal to a ECL 20 player.


Overall quite nice if a little lightweight on features. But nothing too excessive in there. As r2d2go noted some issues with phrasing and typos. If you need hand i'm sure someone would volunteer to g through and correct it for you if it's giving you some form of issue.


Yeah, I just forgot to reply. Got distracted.:smalltongue:

LOL :cool:

r2d2go
2014-08-24, 10:57 PM
Finished Breath Effects, slowly making my way through spells...

If anyone wants to PEACH, it's probably doable at this point :smalltongue: I've decided not to use any homebrew spells, so the basics (no ACFs, etc) are all out there. Any PEACH is much appreciated :smallbiggrin: and of course, I'll give one back - heck, I'll give one to anyone who asks :smallsmile:

Also, if anyone wants to do a class-swap like Zaydos and I did (I think Beelzebub did one with Zaydos too), that'd be awesome. Basically, make a character (we settled on 13th level) and discuss the weaknesses/strengths revealed through the character building.

Zaydos
2014-08-24, 11:04 PM
Also, if anyone wants to do a class-swap like Zaydos and I did (I think Beelzebub did one with Zaydos too), that'd be awesome. Basically, make a character (we settled on 13th level) and discuss the weaknesses/strengths revealed through the character building.

Give me time. I've only finished 1st party non-epic dragon-based options for the class, and only questionably since I think the Dragon Magazine Compendium is some weird cross between 1st and 2nd party material, I've got to at least cover Dragon Magazine dragons (the rest of the Planar Dragons for one thing), and I haven't even started writing the fluff.

At some point I should post what I *do* have but... after last time I'm worried about my ability to guess how many posts I'll need (might just go 5; Class, Draconic Aspects - 1st Party, Draconic Aspects - 2nd Party, Draconic Aspects - Me, Feats). I should start the fluffy bits.

r2d2go
2014-08-24, 11:35 PM
Give me time. I've only finished 1st party non-epic dragon-based options for the class, and only questionably since I think the Dragon Magazine Compendium is some weird cross between 1st and 2nd party material, I've got to at least cover Dragon Magazine dragons (the rest of the Planar Dragons for one thing), and I haven't even started writing the fluff.

At some point I should post what I *do* have but... after last time I'm worried about my ability to guess how many posts I'll need (might just go 5; Class, Draconic Aspects - 1st Party, Draconic Aspects - 2nd Party, Draconic Aspects - Me, Feats). I should start the fluffy bits.

Of course, take all the time you need :smallsmile: I think we all know how expansive your classes are :smalltongue:

It was more of a general offer to everyone, but since I got the idea from you I figured I'd mention you. I like giving out PEACH but I'm bad at looking at my own stuff, so swapping is generally good for all involved :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Also, your avatars keep changing, and they're all great! I've only known you from one contest, is that something you do all the time?

Zaydos
2014-08-25, 01:45 AM
There posted something. Needs some major formatting (abilities aren't alphabetical by level, tutelary dragons are not alphabetical, I need to go through Draconic Aspects to mark which are Ex, Su, or Sp), but it's something and you could theoretically make a character 1st to 20th with it... must add Epic Progression.


Of course, take all the time you need :smallsmile: I think we all know how expansive your classes are :smalltongue:

It was more of a general offer to everyone, but since I got the idea from you I figured I'd mention you. I like giving out PEACH but I'm bad at looking at my own stuff, so swapping is generally good for all involved :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Also, your avatars keep changing, and they're all great! I've only known you from one contest, is that something you do all the time?

Some of mine aren't that extensive. Animator and Intoxicanter were rather scant. Doomsayer was an anomaly! :smallredface:

And yeah I figured it was more general. On the note at being bad at looking at your own stuff, I found the best way for me to do so is actually to create a character... of course that's the best way I can look at anybody's (I am most certainly not good at looking at my own stuff).

And sometimes; normally I stick to the Peanut Dracolich changing to the half-peanut pony only for a Silly Message Board Game about counting, but since I was bringing back my old dragon thread I decided to bring back my old avatar :xykon:

sirpercival
2014-08-25, 05:37 AM
Zaydos, I can tell you, doing stuff for a large number of dragons is annoying. Ethos took forever, and I'm having to do a little bit of it again. :)

MrNobody
2014-08-25, 06:51 AM
Thanks Carl and r2d2go for your PEACH, as soon as i have some spare time i'll try to be useful and return the favor!:smallsmile:

The typos are unexpected since i do use a word checker and that some of the mistakes you pointed out where corrections it made. I'll work on it!

-Draconic dance: I was pretty sure that this one was good since it's modeled on barbarian "rage", i lowered the bonuses (but not penalties, my bad), kept the fatigue, added the choroegraphies...
I'm not sure that i want to take fatigue away, it seems pretty logic to me that, like rage, such an effort makes you weaker, but i could try to balance it raising the bonus (+4 like rage, not +2).
And i'm surprised that the /day and once/encounter wasn't clear since i literally copied&pasted that part from rage definition in D&Dtools: the fact is that he has x/day uses but he cannot dance more than once per encounter. It doesn't matter if he has 20 uses of his dance. In the same encounter he can dance only once. Just like a barbarian with rage.
Good thing to switch the duration from 3+Con to 3+Cha!

-Ballet of claws: the full-round action was a clarification, so i'll take it away since he seems to worsen the ability.
Power attack... i haven't thought about it! I'm not against using it, it should be fine.
Probably i'll write that in case of power attack and similar feats normal BAB still applies for the bonus/penalty cap.

-Scaled-skin dance: i used DR/magic because that's what dragons have, but i see your point: maybe i could leave DX x/magic at lower DCs and make it x/magic and adamantine from DC 25.
Energy resistance needs to be improved. I could make it scale 10-15-20-25-immunity to make it worthwhile.

-Move of moves: given a decent CHA (16) and full skill point on perform (dance), at 5th level (8 ranks) you have a +11 bonus, you need a 4 to hit the basic DC: it's not a win-win situation but i think it's enough!
Carl is right: this ability is designed to work along with the others. Alone, it's not as good but you already have "versatile dance" when you gain it so it can be useful anyway.

-Magical dance: i wanted to use EXACTLY the same spell-like abilities that dragons have: i'm well aware of the unequal distribution, but i didn't think it could have been a problem. At 7th level a wizard gets 4th level spell so having a single 5th level spell-like ability is not a big deal.
And more, this spell like abilities are not at will:


He can use any of this spell-like abilities of that group as a standard action (unless otherwise stated) every round but each one of these abilities cannot be used more than once per Draconic dance.

He uses draconic dance with Magical dance, pics up metallic dragons and uses trasmute mud to rock: that spell-like ability was used in the current dance so he cannot use it again till the next dance. But since a dance cannot be used more than once per encounter, he will have to wait fo the next encounter to use trasmute rock to mud (or his reverse) again.

-Hoard pirouette: i can't see the DC problem since it's the same for bard's fascinate, but i coul balance it requiring a new save every round.

-Frightful steps: i added the cowering because i saw the effect was weak. Suggestion on how make it stronger are accepted!

-Taps of greatness: nonstaking rule: sure! I'll think about the +5 size! And sure, the gear follows the normal rules for magical size enhancement!
I don't think it' that powerful: righteous might (a core 5th level spell) gives you +1 size, a bunch of bonuses, DR... "only" a +4 sizes enhancemente for an ability you take at 19th level seems pretty fair to me.

I'll work on the double step dance negatives as soon as i decide what to do with Draconic dance.

Jormengand
2014-08-25, 08:15 AM
The bonus from the spell you suggested is though and that was what the comment that spawned this littile mini thread of the debate was responding to.

I'm really talking about PAO. Bull's Strength is just an optional extra.


Sorcs have a specific spell list the last i looked, and divine power was not on there.

They do have a specific spell list, but this is entirely pointless because they are specifically allowed to take spells from other lists.


Also where optimizing strength because if your taking the core DD your not taking more than 1 level of sorc, there is no situation under which DD levels are better than sorc level until we bring in heavy house ruling, (which admittedly seems to be very common based on the number of T3 houserules threads we see).

So, basically, "Because we're suboptimal"?


The most common would be an ubercharger, but if where bringing yours into it or other homebrew it's because we could have some other class feature from another class that scales with strength modifier, at which point being able to get that far ahead whilst keeping such a good BAB is really handy.
Uberchargers usually don't use Dragon Disciple unless they have tons of levels to spare. Normally you go for an orc barbarian/psychic warrior with headlong rush, spirited charge, a lance, and the dive action (because you're on a griffon). If you were using homebrew, you'd drop the lance, take a level in Champion and get the 1d12 device and the ability that makes that 2d12 instead, then take a level of disciple apparent and use inferno blade and smash to rack up a bit more damage.




A weapon adds damage, and attack roll modifiers, (incidentally if where comparing it to a weapon the difference is rather larger in your case due to everything being a primary), also a +8 is significant. +8 on a to-hit roll that didn't require a natural 20 to hit is a 40% increase in hit rate, it makes any attack which didn't require a D20 roll of greater than 20 viable instead of eminently ignorable, and turns modest hit chance attacks into near certainties.

The danger really comes though from combining that high strength with other capabilities. That's one of my issues with it on your class. You can get a +12 un-typed modifier by 13th level which just begs that you go find a class that complements this. Hell even building a simple ubercharger combined with enough broad spectrum of side capabilities from other sources could break things.

If you're dropping 13 of your levels just to get a bonus to your strength, why not just... I dunno, be any kind of spellcaster and you could get that anyway?


Good game design says you never compare to either End of the spectrum. You choose, (based on many, many factors), a balance point and compare to that.

No, because if someone is stronger than you, you don't see use.


My own falls probably falls somewhere in the T3 range of the tier system, though obviously being personal it doesn't always match exactly. it's natrually open to a degree of stretching either way like anything, some things are hard to pin into traditional balance factors, and i generally assume a level of optimization below the absolute maximum, (i accept given the amount of sourcebooks that somewhere there will be some way to break something, i just try not to make it too easy). But beyond that i tend not to assume a wizard or a sorc going all out as my balance point because they're clearly broken balance wise in how they invalidate not just other weaker classes, but the entire game itself.

That's a bit of a simplification but still.

Mine's also pretty categorically T3, but only because it's actually good at hitting things in the face, rather than mediocre, in the manner of the fighter, and it also gets a few spells.



My worry with yours is that between the way you have natural attacks setup and the easy extreme damage with no real optimization ceiling allowing modest optimization to turn it into one of the best melee classes
Yes, this is the entire point, because most melee classes suck horribly.


before we even get to combo's or spells, which are presumably going to make it at least passable in a wide variety of area's. If it didn't have the spells and combo's i wouldn't be worried, i'd dislike the narrow focus of it, but it wouldn't worry me. But with those in place it has the capability to trivialize a number of encounter types whilst still contributing in a strong if less overwhelming fashion to others.
That is... the entire point... of T3. You can walk over something you're designed to walk over, and still contribute when you're not designed to walk over stuff.

Zaydos
2014-08-25, 01:47 PM
Update Log: Dragons from Monster Manual, Monster Manual II, Draconomicon, Dragons of Faerun, Monsters of Faerun, Oriental Adventures, Magic of Incarnum, the Epic Level Handbook, Sandstorm, and the Dragon Magazine Compendium added and formatted for Draconic Aspects. If there's any other 1st party source with true dragon species please let me know.

Next step: Homebrew dragons (116 or more to see) and Dragon Magazine... I'll have to hunt down the box.

r2d2go
2014-08-25, 05:24 PM
Thanks Carl and r2d2go for your PEACH, as soon as i have some spare time i'll try to be useful and return the favor!:smallsmile:

No problem :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, a few quick responses:



-Magical dance: i wanted to use EXACTLY the same spell-like abilities that dragons have: i'm well aware of the unequal distribution, but i didn't think it could have been a problem. At 7th level a wizard gets 4th level spell so having a single 5th level spell-like ability is not a big deal.

And more, this spell like abilities are not at will:

He uses draconic dance with Magical dance, pics up metallic dragons and uses trasmute mud to rock: that spell-like ability was used in the current dance so he cannot use it again till the next dance. But since a dance cannot be used more than once per encounter, he will have to wait fo the next encounter to use trasmute rock to mud (or his reverse) again.

Yeah, I wasn't sure what you meant by the uses/encounter thing, so I thought you got it every encounter plus extra times per day, with no restrictions on uses per encounter :smalltongue:

I don't have a problem with using the exact spells of the dragon, but you can pretty easily scale it by size or CR instead of just outright age. In fact, I'd say it'd make more sense to match a gargantuan dragon to a gargantuan dragon, rather than by age but not by size category, and that makes it closer to balanced. For example, you'd make the 14th level spell for white dragon into Control Weather.



-Frightful steps: i added the cowering because i saw the effect was weak. Suggestion on how make it stronger are accepted!

It's not actually particularly weak - Frightened is a nasty condition, basically removing an enemy from the fight. It also stacks with a high number of other effects, and it's already pretty bad. The fact that it comes at 15th level helps keep it down, as does the nonstacking with itself, but the scaling DC and the potential to force an opponent to essentially become helpless is very powerful. You could easily make it save or Panic and on successful save Shaken if it didn't stack with any other fear effects, but if it does stack with other, outside fear sources, it's pretty frightening (pun entirely intended).



-Taps of greatness: nonstaking rule: sure! I'll think about the +5 size! And sure, the gear follows the normal rules for magical size enhancement!
I don't think it' that powerful: righteous might (a core 5th level spell) gives you +1 size, a bunch of bonuses, DR... "only" a +4 sizes enhancemente for an ability you take at 19th level seems pretty fair to me.


The main problem is the damage scaling - +4 sizes quadruples your base damage (every two sizes doubles)/ If it stacked, you're adding quadrupled damage on top of any builds (and, I mean actually quadrupled damage, not D&D multiplier stacking where x4 and x2 becomes x5). Off the top of my head, you can take wield a Large Alchemical Gold Fullblade and then add Augmented Expansion (8d6 damage). 4 size categories later you're dealing 32d6 damage instead, or +24d6 damage. Probably a little stronger than you thought.

Of course, the fact that it comes at 19th level helps, but the one level dip can get you a lot of things (or LA for being Large). That said, on it's own it's probably fine (Giant Size and the like does the same thing).

Edit, Update: Finished with all the special spells (I lied about no homebrew)... taking forever :smalltongue: but all I've got left to do is scan through the SRD for flavor appropriate spells and it's good to go!

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-26, 07:32 AM
I need some high level abilities and I had two thoughts
1)Creating a shrine out of dragon bones to pray at to gain abilities. The problem with this is that it would require the players to set up a "home base" which actually clashes with most campaigns I've been in.
2)create intelligent weapons by binding the dragon's soul to them. I'm not sure how to do this in a way that's different from creating intelligent items the normal way, though.

Xhosant
2014-08-26, 07:59 AM
I need some high level abilities and I had two thoughts
1)Creating a shrine out of dragon bones to pray at to gain abilities. The problem with this is that it would require the players to set up a "home base" which actually clashes with most campaigns I've been in.
2)create intelligent weapons by binding the dragon's soul to them. I'm not sure how to do this in a way that's different from creating intelligent items the normal way, though.

1) make it a portable item instead, or make a shrine someplace, attuned with a portable item that serves as a 'conduit' for the prayer. You still need to find a secure place for it, but that could make for some interesting RP with the indebted villagers.

2)For one, I don't suppose the soul of the slain dragon is eager to serve you. Add a 'must win it over' complication, in exchange for extra power. just an idea.

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-26, 10:48 AM
Okay, so a shrine crafted from the bones of a slain dragon that comes with a ring or amulet. The wearer of the ring spends 1 hour in prayer to attune himself to the shrine. The ring bearer can now access the spell-like abilities of the slain dragon as long as he is on the same plane as the shrine. Those at the shrine can communicate (one way?) with the ring-barer.
does that sound about 14th level-ish?

Xhosant
2014-08-26, 10:55 AM
Okay, so a shrine crafted from the bones of a slain dragon that comes with a ring or amulet. The wearer of the ring spends 1 hour in prayer to attune himself to the shrine. The ring bearer can now access the spell-like abilities of the slain dragon as long as he is on the same plane as the shrine. Those at the shrine can communicate (one way?) with the ring-barer.
does that sound about 14th level-ish?

That'll boil down to how strong the dragon was :smallbiggrin: but yes, it seems solid, and it's what I meant. Though, I'd avoid taking up a slot. Make it a focus, or a ring/etc. that doesn't qualify as a magic ring, limit-wise.

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-26, 11:08 AM
Well the reason for the item slot thing is because anybody that has the ring can use it. If they slay a bigger dragon he can give the weaker shrine to the fighter. Also it's a way to limit the number of shrines he can use personally at one time without limiting the number of shrines he owns.

Xhosant
2014-08-26, 11:09 AM
Well the reason for the item slot thing is because anybody that has the ring can use it. If they slay a bigger dragon he can give the weaker shrine to the fighter. Also it's a way to limit the number of shrines he can use personally at one time without limiting the number of shrines he owns.

That... is actually pretty interesting. Do put a cap on them, since he may just decide to open a Dragon Magic Emporium, but I like the idea.

Carl
2014-08-26, 11:23 AM
To try ad avoid bogging this thread down with huge posts going back and forth i'm going to limit my response to what is more or less the crux of the matter.


That is... the entire point... of T3. You can walk over something you're designed to walk over, and still contribute when you're not designed to walk over stuff.

Here's the description of T3, emphasis mine.


Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

If you've got the ability to totally walk over encounters and it's not very limited and easy for the DM to avoid letting you do your not T3. That's T2 by my standards.

I actually use the following short summaries for the tiers myself:

T1: Able to trivially deal with any encounter and never threatened by any encounter in any meaningful way.

T2: As T1 but a limited range of situations only. All other situations as T3, or rarely T5, (if the T1 situations are sufficiently broadly applicable)

T3: Able to contribute to varying degrees in most or all situation's. Significantly reduces the difficulty of any given encounter by doing so but is still threatened by the encounter.

T4: As T3, or rarely T2, (but in a much more limited range of situations than T2 and with few if any capabilities besides it's strength that are above T6 if this is so). Otherwise as T5.

T5: Can lightly contribute to some or many situations but has limited effect on overall ease of encounter and seriously threatened by all situations, sometimes verging on T6 if a weak capability situation.

T6: Cannot really do anything and is as close to helpless as the limits of the rules allow.



@r2d2go: My main reason for seeing that particular dance as weak was simply that like most such abilities it either has a DC high enough to affect most things, making it insanely overpowered, or it has a DC low enough to not affect most things in which case it's weak as hell. I guess i should have been clear, so long as it doesn't have a DC high enough to be overpowered it's going to be weak, this kind of ability never has a middle ground unfortunately.



@Everyone: Any chance of a bit of PEACH then please?

Xhosant
2014-08-26, 11:27 AM
Sorry, Carl, got bogged down with a ton of stuff. Promise to get back to you asap. In the very least, before I get back to work on my class.

Carl
2014-08-26, 11:34 AM
Sorry, Carl, got bogged down with a ton of stuff. Promise to get back to you asap. In the very least, before I get back to work on my class.

No worries, i am slightly miffed but not at anyone in particular, it's just frustrating seeing everyone else get so much PEACH and me get forgotten when i asked so far back.

But i never though for a moment it was malicious :smile:.

Jormengand
2014-08-26, 11:44 AM
Here's the description of T3, emphasis mine.

Try emphasising the next sentence. Now tell me that deliberately trying to get your strength through the roof, so that you can break the game, is not "Specific intent to do so."

Carl
2014-08-26, 11:57 AM
Try emphasising the next sentence. Now tell me that deliberately trying to get your strength through the roof, so that you can break the game, is not "Specific intent to do so."

The point about your class is you don't have to try. I's part of the class. Seriously, whilst i'd be limited to about 700ish with a human, with a centaur and 18 levels of your class i can without combo's or spells hit 1500ish damage a round on the charge.

You said it yourself most serious ubercharger builds are doing mass multi-classing and a lot of other stuff. I can do it with nothing but feats and a single racial choice.

My issue with yours as an ubcharger is that it's near effortless compared to normal. The SRD DD isn't quite as bad, but it does make it far simpler than it should be.

The other point is that once you start stepping outside of core and especially into homebrew the chances of a class having a feature that scales off strength modifier that just becomes impossibly broken at significantly above 10 rises dramatically. Even with tome and Barbarian levels you'll end up low teens at best. Your's can hit the upper teens and isn't limited by rage uses per day.

Jormengand
2014-08-26, 12:17 PM
The point about your class is you don't have to try. I's part of the class. Seriously, whilst i'd be limited to about 700ish with a human, with a centaur and 18 levels of your class i can without combo's or spells hit 1500ish damage a round on the charge.

Does that not speak more of the differences between centaur and human than DD and anything else :smalleek:

Also, how are you getting 1500? You don't have Psionic Lion's Charge unless you're doing something really weird, so you're trying to do that all in a single attack?

And unless that +6 strength is really doing the bulk of that extra damage, that amount of damage would have killed anyone anyway. It doesn't really matter whether you're doing three hundred or three million; they're just as dead.

Carl
2014-08-26, 12:58 PM
According to the SRD all primary natural weapon attacks are listed in the standard attack entry. That is i can make 1 from each natural weapon. I may also be able to make an armed attack with the main hand, (that's worth about 300 damage so it does have a notable effect), not sure on that though. Also even if this wasn't allowed, there is a feat that lets you make off-hand attacks as part of a standard attack action. Not sure if it works with natural weapons or if there's a similar one for them, but i'd be surprised if there isn't a feat that would let you do this.

There are some very rare monster examples with multiple standard action attacks but i'm not sure if they fall under this heading, (having a really hard time finding one now i want one :().

Regardless with the Centaur i can combine spirited charge with battle jump to turn that 20 point, (or more), strength modifier into a 60 pint damage bonus. Across the 7 natural attacks without factoring in damage rolls that alone is 420 damage. Which is a third fo the way there. I can then throw on the traditional power attack + leap attack + stormtrooper to add another 34 power attack bonus which when tripled works out at another 714 damage. I've allready got 1200 but if i can make an armed attack a valorous collision lance will add another 300ish. Of course in practice the 7 natural attacks, (once you include their damage die rolls), killed any CR appropriate target anyway before power attack or the lance.


Or hell, lets just look at a standard full attack here. Since your giving out iterative and assuming a one-handed melee in the main hand you have 8 times the following attack modifiers 37/32/27/22. The average AC at CR20 is 38 with a max of 40 so the first lot only miss on a nat 1 and afetr that it's 70%/45%/20% which looks something like an average hits ratio of; 7/5/3/2. Or 17 hits. Leaving aside damage die rolls, (which will be significant), that's a solid 340 damage allready. You almost don't need anything but normal full attacks with no feats to average kill a CR appropriate target. In fact if there are some appropriate natural attack feats out there you probably can kill them in one round with plenty of damage to spare, (Vow of Poverty seems like it would do it for example. +5 damage per attack is good, a further +5 attack roll modifier is awesome).

A human is a bit less insane, but they're still capable of 2 rounding something, and if we throw in something like Vow of Poverty, (seriously this class is built to be vow of poverty bait), and a feat or two for natural weapons i imagine they could 1 round as well.

Basically a large strength bonus when you have the potential for so many attacks is a huge thing.

Zaydos
2014-08-26, 01:19 PM
In other news I found a 1st party true dragon I did not know about. Rattelyr from The Shining South. It has been added. If anybody knows of other true dragons thrown in random books let me know. I'm on to... Time Dragon? Ferrous ones? Gloom Dragons and the 3 unlikable Planar Dragons? I'll figure it out. I have pokemon dragon fever, got to brew for 'em all.

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-26, 02:31 PM
Well there's the Lunar dragons from Dragonmech.

Zaydos
2014-08-26, 02:52 PM
Well there's the Lunar dragons from Dragonmech.

If I get into 3rd party publishers (as opposed to Dragon which was 2nd party I believe) I'd start with the Scarred Lands since I actually have those, and probably check out the semi-official Dark Sun and Spelljammer web pages.

Jormengand
2014-08-26, 03:29 PM
According to the SRD all primary natural weapon attacks are listed in the standard attack entry.

Yes, because you can make a standard attack with any one of the weapons, not with all of them as one attack.

Anyway, fine, I can (if I really want) ubercharge things. Cool. But if you're doing that, your breath weapon is probably crap, and you're not taking advantage of the fact that, hello, nearly everything is your class skill. And your spells have pretty bad DCs.

It's not really much better at ubercharging than anything else. Again, there's damage that kills people, and damage that doesn't. How many times over you're killing someone doesn't matter too much. If you want to be an ubercharger, there are better ways of doing it (which probably involved PAO by the time you're talking about 18th level).

Also, the reason you have a DM is so that you can ban brews that were made without taking each other into account (So no, you can't be BDD as well as something that scales ridiculously well off strength).

Finally, if you really wanted the strength, there was probably a better way of getting it (which probably involved PAO by the time you're talking about 18th level).

And anyway, if it is better than PAO, then so what? Oh no, one thing we can do better than an arcane spellcaster? Call the Tippy police, the arcane spellcasters aren't the best at everything ever any more!

r2d2go
2014-08-26, 04:07 PM
I need some high level abilities and I had two thoughts
1)Creating a shrine out of dragon bones to pray at to gain abilities. The problem with this is that it would require the players to set up a "home base" which actually clashes with most campaigns I've been in.
2)create intelligent weapons by binding the dragon's soul to them. I'm not sure how to do this in a way that's different from creating intelligent items the normal way, though.

Well, to make the first option more viable, you could make it part of their daily routine like a caster - Each morning, they have to pray to their altar (or build a little altar and pray to that).

Also, at the class strength thing - I think this has gone well out of PEACH. It'd be really nice if you guys could agree to disagree (or at least continue disagreeing via PMs or something :smalltongue:)

Temotei
2014-08-26, 05:12 PM
Also, at the class strength thing - I think this has gone well out of PEACH. It'd be really nice if you guys could agree to disagree (or at least continue disagreeing via PMs or something :smalltongue:)

Agreed. Feel free to give more feedback on other things but rehashing the same arguments and not getting anywhere won't help either of you.

Not that I'm going to stop you, but as r2d2go said, it'd be nice.

dragonjek
2014-08-26, 06:01 PM
:smalleek:
I need to check what's already been posted more frequently. Zaydos and I's class ideas are frightfully similar. Even in the name (SŠwolwyrm, merging the Old English words for soul and dragon). Although I don't intend on bringing in any outside homebrew, and Zaydos's features no incarnum, which is a small relief (well, except for the incarnum/prana dragon aspects).
:smalleek:

r2d2go
2014-08-26, 06:02 PM
:smalleek:
I need to check what's already been posted more frequently. Zaydos and I's class ideas are frightfully similar. Even in the name (SŠwolwyrm, merging the Old English words for soul and dragon). Although I don't intend on bringing in any outside homebrew, and Zaydos's features no incarnum, which is a small relief (well, except for the incarnum/prana dragon aspects).
:smalleek:

Eh, incarnum vrs not incarnum is a pretty big difference, I wouldn't sweat it too much :smalltongue:

sirpercival
2014-08-26, 07:01 PM
:smalleek:
I need to check what's already been posted more frequently. Zaydos and I's class ideas are frightfully similar. Even in the name (SŠwolwyrm, merging the Old English words for soul and dragon). Although I don't intend on bringing in any outside homebrew, and Zaydos's features no incarnum, which is a small relief (well, except for the incarnum/prana dragon aspects).
:smalleek:
Mine is gonna be incarnum... I haven't looked at yours, so I have no idea of the mechanics, but I bet it'll be slightly different due to mine using another homebrew subsystem as well.

Zaydos
2014-08-26, 07:35 PM
:smalleek:
I need to check what's already been posted more frequently. Zaydos and I's class ideas are frightfully similar. Even in the name (SŠwolwyrm, merging the Old English words for soul and dragon). Although I don't intend on bringing in any outside homebrew, and Zaydos's features no incarnum, which is a small relief (well, except for the incarnum/prana dragon aspects).
:smalleek:

By the time I'm done it'll have Incarnum, Infusions, Martial Maneuvers, Soulbinding, Mysteries, and Utterances! Maybe even invocations. :xykon: I might be a little crazed :smallredface: Ok, I'd call me mad, Mad, MAD I say! Now I try to think of an official subsystem that I'm unlikely to tap into in some way shape or form.

And when you've made more than 100 true dragons it's hard to pass up with a contest like this one to bring them in somehow.

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-26, 07:51 PM
You know what would be an interesting subsystem for you to work into a class? The Star Wars d20 force system, including the rules for Dark Side points.

r2d2go
2014-08-26, 08:07 PM
By the time I'm done it'll have Incarnum, Infusions, Martial Maneuvers, Soulbinding, Mysteries, and Utterances! Maybe even invocations. :xykon: I might be a little crazed :smallredface: Ok, I'd call me mad, Mad, MAD I say! Now I try to think of an official subsystem that I'm unlikely to tap into in some way shape or form.

And when you've made more than 100 true dragons it's hard to pass up with a contest like this one to bring them in somehow.

If I get everything in, I'm working with casting, psionics, maneuvers, invocations, and DFA breath effects :smallbiggrin: not quite as impressive, but still a lot on my plate...

Zaydos
2014-08-26, 08:49 PM
Well this talk about character testing for this has made me decide to try running another group through the Sinister Spire if people are up for it. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?368848-Homebrew-Testing-the-Sinister-Spire-%28let-s-try-this-yet-again%29&p=18008992#post18008992). Would love to see someone play a Dragonsoul Acolyte for it. Thinking about building an oldschool kick in the door dungeon crawl one too.

Also willing to do character building trades with anyone with a class complete enough to build a character of (and a table to read).


If I get everything in, I'm working with casting, psionics, maneuvers, invocations, and DFA breath effects :smallbiggrin: not quite as impressive, but still a lot on my plate...

Yeah not going to have DFA breath effects.


You know what would be an interesting subsystem for you to work into a class? The Star Wars d20 force system, including the rules for Dark Side points.

I have made no dragons using that system and have every intent not to since I found the way Dark Side points functioned in it to be badly flawed. The force system was so-so to meh, neat concept (and better execution than Truenaming) but didn't fit the way the Force is depicted in other media well enough to justify it. Also my Jedi wasn't allowed to build a droid army because my growing group of droid minions was becoming game breaking.

r2d2go
2014-08-26, 09:44 PM
Well this talk about character testing for this has made me decide to try running another group through the Sinister Spire if people are up for it. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?368848-Homebrew-Testing-the-Sinister-Spire-%28let-s-try-this-yet-again%29&p=18008992#post18008992). Would love to see someone play a Dragonsoul Acolyte for it. Thinking about building an oldschool kick in the door dungeon crawl one too.

Also willing to do character building trades with anyone with a class complete enough to build a character of (and a table to read).

Made a table just for you :smallwink: 13th level sound good? Or maybe 5th level so it can get run in the Sinister Spire...

Zaydos
2014-08-27, 01:51 AM
I'm thinking about whether I should drop Dragon Form as too much and kind of disjointed from the rest of the class (maybe adding some small benefit at 6th or just rejiggering to give it something else).


Made a table just for you :smallwink: 13th level sound good? Or maybe 5th level so it can get run in the Sinister Spire...

Either works for me. Few questions: What is the HD type? What are the class skills? At rank 3 in Body of the Dracolich do you lose your Constitution score? If so do all future and current hit dice set themselves to d12 like with many undead templates?

5th would be the quick version, and there's no rule saying we couldn't do 5th and 13th; we could even build the same character at both. Though I will note that Aspect seems to get some big things at 14th (Paralyzing touch on each attack and 5th level spells if they went claws and mind) while getting relatively little at 13th.

Inevitability
2014-08-27, 05:57 AM
Question for Temotei. The rules say:


You may not post your entry anywhere else until after the contest is finished.

Does that mean I can't use my entry in Zaydos' game? Or would posting the actions of my class in a PbP game not count as 'posting my entry'?

sirpercival
2014-08-27, 08:36 AM
Question for Temotei. The rules say:



Does that mean I can't use my entry in Zaydos' game? Or would posting the actions of my class in a PbP game not count as 'posting my entry'?

Generally this means don't post your actual class writeup anywhere else, like in a separate thread or what have you. But you should be able to use the class in a game, sure.

sirpercival
2014-08-27, 09:12 AM
Okie doke, the mechanics of my class are posted, though I need to finish the fluff and post the soulmeld table (which will be up in a couple minutes).

Anyone who'd like to take a look, please do! :)

EDIT: ok, soulmelds posted (with links to homebrew melds)

Temotei
2014-08-27, 12:14 PM
Question for Temotei. The rules say:



Does that mean I can't use my entry in Zaydos' game? Or would posting the actions of my class in a PbP game not count as 'posting my entry'?


Generally this means don't post your actual class writeup anywhere else, like in a separate thread or what have you. But you should be able to use the class in a game, sure.

This is right. Playtesting is perfectly fine.

Zaydos
2014-08-27, 12:37 PM
Finished adding Dragon Magazine and Dragonlance dragons. I believe that means I've finished all official dragons (when the book is allowed to reprint Shadow Dragons I'm going to guess it falls on the official side of whatever grey area Dragonlance was published under).

Now just homebrew and whether I want to include 3rd party true dragons... and returning to the idea of removing dragon form.

sirpercival
2014-08-27, 02:10 PM
Hey Zaydos, we should collab on making Ideals for all your homebrew dragonz.

r2d2go
2014-08-27, 02:41 PM
I'm thinking about whether I should drop Dragon Form as too much and kind of disjointed from the rest of the class (maybe adding some small benefit at 6th or just rejiggering to give it something else).



Either works for me. Few questions: What is the HD type? What are the class skills? At rank 3 in Body of the Dracolich do you lose your Constitution score? If so do all future and current hit dice set themselves to d12 like with many undead templates?

5th would be the quick version, and there's no rule saying we couldn't do 5th and 13th; we could even build the same character at both. Though I will note that Aspect seems to get some big things at 14th (Paralyzing touch on each attack and 5th level spells if they went claws and mind) while getting relatively little at 13th.

Actually, good point... I think I'll move Mind's bonus ability to 13th (Channeled full attack or Battle Blessing equivalent for 3rd level and lower). I put all the abilities of Claws at even levels because they get fighter bonus feats at odd levels, but yeah many are better than the feat.

HD is d8, and I'll get class skills in soon - it'll be pretty similar to Wizard class skills were just added :smallbiggrin: At rank 3, you lose your constitution score (as part of the traits), and all future and current hit dice set themselves to d12s (kinda forgot that the hit dice weren't part of the traits :smalltongue:). As another note, the As Dragonborn wings advance by rank, and not hit dice like dragonborn wings (noted now).

I'll make the 5th level to start since I'll be submitting it for the Sinister Spire, but I'll make the 13th at some point too.

Zaydos
2014-08-28, 12:04 PM
Working on draconic aspects for occulus dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9429925&postcount=53) because somebody requested that occulus dragon get updated/stuff made for dragonsoul acolyte and I wanted an opinion on an idea I had: What about instead of giving them normal spell pool access I give them access to a certain amount of (swift action) eye rays which cost spell pool points based on their level. So for example at Lv 4 instead of gaining access to 1st level spell-like abilities (if only 1/day) you'd get swift action Charm Person Ray and swift action Inflict Light Wounds Ray possibly costing 2 Spell Pool Points to use instead of 4. A trade off of versatility (whatever 1st level sorcerer spell you need at the moment) for power (swift action spell 2/day instead of standard action spell 1/day). Now this is only the proto idea, but I figured I'd ask opinions while I brainstormed.

Decided to go with the eye rays as spell pool idea. I will note that from now on I should just add 2 to however many posts I think I'll need, I really should.


Hey Zaydos, we should collab on making Ideals for all your homebrew dragonz.

Sometime, for now, though, I still have to make aspects for and update around 90 dragons before embarking on another large project.

Edit: And now for my status report/update that nobody really cares for. Added 10 different Baatorian dragons (1 for the plane, and 1 for each layer) some of which might be mutually thematically exclusive (Hellfire dragon and the others) but hey the planes are big and a single layer of a plane can host 2 species of dragons if the Prime can host 1. About 1/3rd done with the homebrewed dragons I think. Should have 40 completed which is nearing the number of 1st party dragons (which I think is < 50).

Vaynor
2014-08-29, 12:28 AM
I want to participate in this, but none of my ideas work for base classes. It's hard to find a good concept for a base class that isn't just a big PrC. Ugh.

Zaydos
2014-08-29, 01:32 AM
I want to participate in this, but none of my ideas work for base classes. It's hard to find a good concept for a base class that isn't just a big PrC. Ugh.

This is one reason I wish the PrC contest was still going. But let's try and think about potential classes. Dragonslayer is a classic, but one I think is best represented as a PrC. A dragon-dedicated warrior is something I've done before, but again best represented as a PrC (it has a place if the world is one high enough magic to need gish base classes and with enough of a dragon focus to make it make sense). Another take on the dragon cultist/priest; mine started as that and has ended as "I want to be a dragon"... there might be some author appeal there... but there's a relatively large thematic space still there. A dragon mage; they have sorcerer casting and you have Sorcerers and Dragonfire Adepts already but a truly dragon mage-y base class could be made, potentially something of an elementalist, maybe a fixed list caster with a lot of the dragon themed spells and energy blasting. A class dedicated to a specific breed of dragon (as in a Red Dragon Class which is built purely to uphold red dragons) seems Prestige Class-esque. A class about draconic wild shaping could be done as a base class, and apparently is. As dragon is a theme that suggests itself to specialization you look at things that are completely unlike other base classes (turning into a dragon, singing the songs of creation sung by the Ninefold Dragon when the Great Wheel was formed). If you want to go truly general it always gets harder, partially due to thematic overlap. For example I'd suggest a class based not on dragons directly but one of their major defining characteristics: The Hoard. A class based upon the collection and use of wealth and magical items. But that has thematic overlap with artificer. Of course you could present it in more a merchant-thief role with a healthy dash of the tinker, as opposed to the artificer's forge mastery, but that's still an overlap.

None of these ideas have been particularly good, but hopefully they'll spark some idea.

Progress Log: I have added all epic dragons I have made. Too many dragons. I think I might take a break tomorrow and just make an Evil AI/Genius Loci Meta-Dragon which roots into a location and turns it into its evil lair complete with breath weapon turrets and at-will whispering wind PA system.

Apparently I half lied to myself and now have the draconic aspects for all meta-dragons I personally made completed.

Vaynor
2014-08-29, 03:24 AM
I don't think I'll use any of those specifically, but you gave me a lot of great ideas! I think I was trying to find something too directly on the subject of dragons, I think maybe moving farther away from dragons might be best while still relating it to the dragon theme. What do you think of a warrior/rogue-type gaining special abilities based on dragons? The hoard idea might work well for this, a thief that gathers a hoard with the aid of dragon-esque powers.

Zaydos
2014-08-29, 04:55 PM
I don't think I'll use any of those specifically, but you gave me a lot of great ideas! I think I was trying to find something too directly on the subject of dragons, I think maybe moving farther away from dragons might be best while still relating it to the dragon theme. What do you think of a warrior/rogue-type gaining special abilities based on dragons? The hoard idea might work well for this, a thief that gathers a hoard with the aid of dragon-esque powers.

Glad to have helped.

Ongoing Status Report: Added evil AI dragons, dragons made from evil rituals, and others. I have 17 Evil options for Tutelary Dragon left to add, and I've decided to go on an evil kick for a bit. These are the dragons closer to the bottom of the barrel, with the more serious ones being "poisonous swamp dragon" and "disease dragon" going from there to "demon-lord associated dragons" to "unseelie dragons" and on down to "cyclops dragon?" "sliver dragon??" and all the way down to the ridiculously silly Peanut Dragon. Why am I updating it for this? I have no idea.

Edit; Madness Log Update: Added Peanut Dragons and Sliver Dragons. Had to start a new post.

Beelzebub1111
2014-08-31, 08:08 AM
I should have my class up tonight or tomorrow afternoon at the latest. I'm not sure if it will be any competion, but I hope that elegant simplicity will shine through

Zaydos
2014-08-31, 10:14 AM
I should have my class up tonight or tomorrow afternoon at the latest. I'm not sure if it will be any competion, but I hope that elegant simplicity will shine through

It's quality not quantity that'll do it. Honestly the only person who I think cares to see my homebrew dragons added to the class is me; it's just a giant vanity project there. I really should be making a list of "Common Lesser Aspects" for if certain dragons don't exist but which are common enough that they should be selectable via feat or 2nd Aspect for all characters (things like SR, Swim Speed/Water Breathing, Burrow Speed, and other things that exist in ~20%+ of official dragons but in core dragons were passed up for more interesting/fluffy/breath weapon abilities) and the Draconic Pantheon as Tutelary Dragons.

On the note of my continuing descent into madness: I have finished all Evil dragons (excluding deities and Ashardalon). You now have far too many choices for Tutelary Dragon regardless of your Evil alignment. In addition to the normal options for a draconic character you have such things as: Draconic servants of Unseelie fey lords, crazed AIs, imp controlling diabolist shadowcasters, vestige binding evil dragons, and more! For a limited time* you can even access Incarnum by killing creatures to harvest essentia, so buy** now!

*This offer valid until the site or the internet no longer is with you.

**Something, this isn't actually for sale so buy something else, I'd suggest ice cream.

On a less crazy note, if there is any dragons from my homebrew you want to see Aspects for in particular just let me know; I'm gonna be converting them all, but I'd like to entertain while I do so.

dragonjek
2014-08-31, 11:43 AM
It's quality not quantity that'll do it.
While true, things that obviously involved a great deal of work to create tend to be viewed more favorably.

Zaydos
2014-08-31, 02:30 PM
While true, things that obviously involved a great deal of work to create tend to be viewed more favorably.

True. I will note that a new meldshaping class with a complete new list of soul melds will impress me since I've tried and failed at that before.

Madness Log: 90 dragons done (close to 165 with 1st/2nd party dragons) 38 left to go (28 homebrew, 9 gods, 1 Ashardalon); this is assuming I haven't miscounted badly in one or more places.

Carl
2014-08-31, 02:35 PM
Madness Log: 90 dragons done (close to 165 with 1st/2nd party dragons) 38 left to go (28 homebrew, 9 gods, 1 Ashardalon); this is assuming I haven't miscounted badly in one or more places.

Masochist.

sirpercival
2014-08-31, 02:42 PM
True. I will note that a new meldshaping class with a complete new list of soul melds will impress me since I've tried and failed at that before.

Madness Log: 90 dragons done (close to 165 with 1st/2nd party dragons) 38 left to go (28 homebrew, 9 gods, 1 Ashardalon); this is assuming I haven't miscounted badly in one or more places.

Does it count that I made one (Green Man) so I could fill in the 28 melds I was missing for the Noumenon Drake meld list, even though it's not posted in the contest? ;)

dragonjek
2014-08-31, 05:21 PM
True. I will note that a new meldshaping class with a complete new list of soul melds will impress me since I've tried and failed at that before.

That's... actually what I'm making. It isn't a very large list, but each has at least 3 chakra binds. The SŠwolwyrm draws on the remnants of dragon souls, but there happens to be a consciousness composed of the gestalt memories clinging to the soul-energy composing the sea of incarnum that they create a form of dragonpact with--because they have the weekly ability to change what dragon they most closely embody, the gestalt nature of the Enigmatic Wyrm is capable of changing the spell-like abilities of the dragonpact in turn.

Zaydos
2014-08-31, 11:54 PM
Masochist.

I feel like I should deny this in the most animesque Tsundere way possible, including the use of the phrase baka somewhere within it.


Does it count that I made one (Green Man) so I could fill in the 28 melds I was missing for the Noumenon Drake meld list, even though it's not posted in the contest? ;)

Maybe... not sure... how many soulmelds is normal for a class? I do need to get around to looking all of it over but... ~30 more dragons to go.


That's... actually what I'm making. It isn't a very large list, but each has at least 3 chakra binds. The SŠwolwyrm draws on the remnants of dragon souls, but there happens to be a consciousness composed of the gestalt memories clinging to the soul-energy composing the sea of incarnum that they create a form of dragonpact with--because they have the weekly ability to change what dragon they most closely embody, the gestalt nature of the Enigmatic Wyrm is capable of changing the spell-like abilities of the dragonpact in turn.

I know, I knew (bold added for emphasis). I look forward to seeing it. 3 Chakra binds, essentia abilities, and basic soul meld ability (which can be picked up with a feat) = 5 abilities per soul meld with one of which being theoretically balanced against a feat; I tried it twice and it beat me both times so I've got to give it some respect. Then again I haven't tried it since I started making really complicated classes (most I'd done is a class with 2 disciplines and no heart) so I have to give it another go sometime.

Madness Descent Log: Went into the Heat Prison on a Quest for the Knowledge of the Elder Centuries and the Mines of King Solomon1. I found naught of what I searched, nor the Street of Perdido. My alternate treasures, a Grimoire for the Eponymous Mage2 and the story-hoard of the Amber Prince3 were forgot and I found instead a panoply of wonders. Grabbing a meager six I retreated from the cell, and sat to work once more. With 30 eggs left to hatch, give or take4, I came upon a mad idea. What about a variant made for gestalt? I set to work and made a thing, a thing of quality I cannot ascertain, a thing that's nature escapes my feeble mind5. But a thing it is, and I must admit to an interest in your beliefs as to how the experiment fares6. Now I turn back to my hatchery, no more the dragons of the holy mount to wrought anew, no more dragons based upon the ancient past, even those that hold the hallowed words that made the world are complete. Only a few dozen7 remain :belkar:

1Translation went into parents' attic to borrow King Solomon's Mines by H. Rider Haggard to see the book and how much of it actually has made it into Fantasy through Lost World fiction and the works of later authors.

2Anything by Jack Vance.

3Anything by Roger Zelasny.

4I am a firm believer in the old saying "Never count your world destroying super-beasts before they hatch" and while many of these aren't those, I believe it can be applied to the less dangerous varieties of dragons as well.

5I believe one of the spiders in the aforementioned attic had caster levels and some Wisdom damaging spells.

6I lack the familiarity with Gestalt power levels to actually know if it is balanced and would like 2nd opinions.

7 17 homebrew, 9 dragon gods, 1 Ashardalon.

Beelzebub1111
2014-09-01, 08:58 AM
Okay, I lied about finishing and having the class up today. I got distracted by other projects. I may not end up finishing this one. Got some massive writer's block for mid-high level abilities.

Network
2014-09-01, 02:57 PM
For some reason I decided I wanted to post an entry for this challenge, and I recently got the idea of exactly what I wanted to do. Cyborgs. Dragons. Dragon cyborgs. I'm not sure of the power level of my Cyber Dragonkin class, but it's almost done. I just need to make the class' modules. Fell free to comment.

True. I will note that a new meldshaping class with a complete new list of soul melds will impress me since I've tried and failed at that before.
What about a new class that uses a mechanical rip-off of the meldshaping subsystem, with a complete list of the equivalent of soulmelds? Technically, I'm probably cheating since I'll use thematically appropriate modules amongst those made by Garryl (the subsystem's original author), but I do plan on making a few dozens myself.

Temotei
2014-09-01, 05:47 PM
Okay, I lied about finishing and having the class up today. I got distracted by other projects. I may not end up finishing this one. Got some massive writer's block for mid-high level abilities.

:smallfrown:

Hopefully, the rest of the month will be enough. Good luck with everything, though.

Carl
2014-09-01, 06:05 PM
Ok mask Enchantments up, please cna i have some PEACH, (instead of that Masochist talking :biggrin:)..

Xhosant
2014-09-01, 07:06 PM
Ok mask Enchantments up, please cna i have some PEACH, (instead of that Masochist talking :biggrin:)..

Still owe you that one, don't I? :smallfrown: sorry for the delay, I haven't forgotten.

Carl
2014-09-01, 07:16 PM
Eh no worries.

Inevitability
2014-09-02, 02:20 AM
I'm sorry, but I'll have to stop working on this. School has started again, and stuff just got really busy. I am sorry. :smallfrown:


On the bright side, the other competitioners will now only have 3-4 opponents. :smalltongue:

somebody27else
2014-09-02, 02:06 PM
On the bright side, the other competitioners will now only have 3-4 opponents. :smalltongue:

3-4? Are you joking? Have you checked the thread recently? There have been, like, 30-something posts. That's at least 15 opponents. Maybe more.

And by the way, the word is competitors, not competitioners. :smallwink:

dragonjek
2014-09-02, 02:55 PM
3-4? Are you joking? Have you checked the thread recently? There have been, like, 30-something posts. That's at least 15 opponents. Maybe more.

It's a bit less than that. Zaydos alone has 10 posts, and there are a lot of classes out there with two or three posts to their name.

Zaydos
2014-09-02, 03:13 PM
On that note I'm almost done; I've finished all the homebrew dragons, and now just have to make ones for deities and Ashardalon. Then decide whether I actually want to add some epic level stuff (epic progression that grants more Aspects as you level, Epic Feats to get: higher level spell pool access, total access to everything of a specific school, additional disciplines for Sublime ones, more Spell Pool Points, epic spells, ability to double breath weapon power by adding more rounds to the wait, ability to imbue a spell into your breath weapon via Spell Pool Point expenditure, etc).

And I had thought Stirge's was complete.

Temotei
2014-09-02, 05:00 PM
I'm sorry, but I'll have to stop working on this. School has started again, and stuff just got really busy. I am sorry. :smallfrown:


On the bright side, the other competitioners will now only have 3-4 opponents. :smalltongue:

Hey, the more the merrier, but if you've got stuff going on, no worries. Maybe things will turn around and you will be able to finish. If not, no big deal. Maybe next time.

Also, good luck with school, yo.

r2d2go
2014-09-03, 04:10 PM
It's a bit less than that. Zaydos alone has 10 posts, and there are a lot of classes out there with two or three posts to their name.

Yeah, I've got four. It's probably more like ten competitors total (not sure how many are dropping).

Anyway, sorry I've been slow, Zaydos, but I will get that character done! :smalltongue:

Zaydos
2014-09-03, 08:04 PM
Yeah, I've got four. It's probably more like ten competitors total (not sure how many are dropping).

Anyway, sorry I've been slow, Zaydos, but I will get that character done! :smalltongue:

More competitors = better.

And I need to see if anything changed from when I got to "I just need to buy items" and went to "I must make stuff for 100+ homebrew dragons" and drove at several times the speed limit into a cliff in the Plateau of Leng.

Xhosant
2014-09-03, 08:11 PM
and drove at several times the speed limit into a cliff in the Plateau of Leng.

One serving of Kudos for the sir!

Zaydos
2014-09-04, 03:32 PM
Madness Log Update: I'm finished? I... all dragons have been added, the Draconomicon's draconic gods (except the willful exclusion of Io) and Sardior have been added, Ashardalon has been added, my own homebrew trio of draconic gods have been added, Gestalt/higher powered version, Epic Progression, as many feats as I can think of to make, and Dwarven Racial Substitution levels... I'm... there's nothing left to do :smallfrown:

So it's time to exchanged fruits (PEACHes naturally, got a bit of a monkey in me), exchange NPCs, and I guess I'm taking requests for races to make more substitution levels for :smallconfused:

Also Elegrin the Blackened (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=999619); no fluff yet for this Elven Aspect of the Dracolich (waiting for the class to have fluff for that), but he's completed. Going the Claws + Body route he's fairly similar to a fighter, with some added DR, a list of immunities (although can't be revived if he dies and no unconscious buffer :smalleek:), at-will out of combat healing, and natural armor to help make up for his worsened armor proficiencies. +12 to hit and 16 damage/hit on average. Not particularly optimized (thrown together gear), but something I could see one of my RL players building with this class.

A Stag Beetle (CR 4) is a nasty opponent (23 damage/hit overcomes DR and needs a 13 to hit; while having more hit points) and would be a close fight (both will kill the other in 5 rounds on average); he has a slight advantage due to better initiative and power attack but it's still about a coin flip. Looking at this I swap Cleave for Combat Expertise which allows for a 5 point AC shift; he now needs a 12 to hit (7.92 dpr with crits; 8 rounds) but it needs a 18 (3.45 with crits; 12 rounds) a much better chance and full out of combat healing.

Now let's look at a troll. CR 5; he needs a 4 to hit, giving him 14.96 damage/round (9.96 after regen); it needs 14, 14, 19 and deals ~7/round on average. This gives it the advantage (6 round KO versus 7 round) but only a slight one which a lucky crit could change. By using PA he can get +1.5 dpr (enough to make it 6 rounds) or by using Combat Expertise he can drop to 5.56 DPR and drop its DPR to ~2.1 DPR which he then readily defeats after a long dragged out fight.

Advanced Megaraptor Skeleton (CR 6). He needs a 2 to hit, it needs a 14/19/19/19. He deals 10.45 DPR it deals 6.35. Of course again it has massively more hit points (78 to 43) it takes him 8 rounds on average to kill it and it only 7; their initiatives are equal. PAing for full gives him 14.7 DPR which will let him bring it down in 6 rounds on average (decent chance of 5), Combat Expertise for 1 and full PAing reduces its damage to ~5.7 while still allowing him 13.65 DRP (6 rounds vs 8). So he still has the advantage actually.

Fighting 2 ogres they average less than 2 damage/round if he uses full Combat Expertise, he averages 9.68; takes them ~22 rounds to kill him, he kills one in 3.

Lv 6 sees a big improvement; a ~66% increase to DPR with a full attack, the ability to perform a paralyzing touch (i.e. at-will Fort save or lose), and DR 3/MAGIC and bludgeoning. It'd also give him Shock Trooper which would have allowed for powerful charges; in a solo scenario Shock Trooper is a very bad idea on him and he'd have been better served with a feat other than Shock Trooper (even Weapon Specialization if he could take it as a fighter), but in a party situation it means he'd be able to deal a third or a half of a creature's health in an opening charge and he'd then be able to survive the return volley and switch to defense with a hurt enemy. Not great but something offensive.

Overall, though, he has the same problems as a fighter. He can get the defenses to survive combat, but no way to force the foe to target him. He's contributing (all of these were full encounters for 5th level characters multiple of them ones that a solo character is supposed to have a 50/50 chance of death on), and with a party it's be more of "I'm getting swamped I use Combat Expertise" then a go to constant strategy; coupled with free out of combat healing it makes him a decent front-liner and you have the caster aspect for more varied/strategic play. That said I'd say make the DR start out as X/bludgeoning and magic, and give them Medium Armor proficiency at least by rank 3 or 4 of claws. I'd also give them Intimidate as a class skill, and choices for their weapons from Claws; I'd actually say just let them pick any 1-handed martial (or simple) weapon + shield or any 2-handed martial (or simple) weapon.

Carl
2014-09-04, 03:42 PM
Since your ilness sees to have passed at last can i wring a PEACH out of you, please, pretty pretty please :smallannoyed:.

Temotei
2014-09-04, 04:23 PM
Since your ilness sees to have passed at last can i wring a PEACH out of you, please, pretty pretty please :smallannoyed:.

Zaydos will likely never be free of contest XVIII.

Also, the new font is killing me right now.

Zaydos
2014-09-04, 04:43 PM
Alright...

Dragon Priest Artifacts Rules:

Rule 1: Your mask enchantments need to be able to replace items or this is a big problem.

Rule 2: Complete meta-game construct; creates problems in wealth distribution, ESPECIALLY if the Dragon Priest is evil. Go with a required tithe of 90% of their wealth instead, it's a little better.

Rule 3/4: No problems.

Kahvozein's Fang: At what level is this "no material components at all"? Ok they get Resurrection so never, but eventually it is just how much Resurrection is discounted.

Mask of Office: Will get to this.

Staff of Power: Will be talked about in casting.

Spellcasting:
Metamagic Feat selection: Remove the part about disallowing them to pick up Metamagic feats with feats gained from Dragon Priest levels; it ends up feeling like a meta-game construct and not a good one.

Spell DC: So free heighten spell, ok, acceptable, especially with dual casting stats. Problem here is basing it on Base Attack Bonus; it encourages the class to multiclass into Fighter or other full BAB classes to increase their Spell DCs above what is normally the cap for everyone.

Caster Level: Same BAB based problem here. This one is actually likely to hurt you because... well assuming a +Cha race and being Venerable you'd have 30 Charisma tops at Lv 20 and that means abandoning your Wisdom.

Bonus Spells: This means you're going to have a ton of 1st level spells most of them Magic Missile so you can just unload damage with staff casting. At the same time you actually likely have more bonus 6th level spells; it's only highest level spells where it matters though because...

Spells Known: Better than Sorcerer or Bard, worse than a fixed list or Tier 1, your list is more varied than a fixed list but this is meh and move on.

Staff Casting: This alone raises it to encounter breaking levels where the DM has to make it immune to your tricks. It's not Planar Ally abuse bad, but it is "breaks action economy into little mangled pieces" bad and more than makes up for no meta-magic. I'd advice capping the staff spells at 2 (equal to quicken + normal) or maximum 3. Already it can unload 4 save or lose (heightened) or 40d4+40 damage with only SR to protect you (Magic Missile) and it can do that at least 1/encounter without caring.

Spell-like Abilities: Just going to note that with built in potential for crazy CL enhancements you don't want Blasphemy on the list; although realistically you're likely to be penalized CL.

Ward: So Spell level times you just say no if it succeeded by 20% to 45%? This is actually a crazy powerful ability; it should be before you know the result, at least (probably before it is determined at all).

Don't really like the Draconic Liche subtype or the funky things it does, and I must note that the Level Drain part does not work as written (Level Drain is applied 1 at a time when you try and save to remove Negative Levels and therefore can never reduce you below 1+1/4 HD except by reducing you to 0, since if you would have as many Negative Levels as hit dice you die instantly it still can't do that because you'd already be on your way to becoming a Wight).

Hover is actually a decently useful utility power.

Atronach Companion: An animal companion like ability might be appropriate, but if it is then it needs to come sooner and I'm really not sure it's needed with the suite of defenses and action economy breaking the class already has in addition to this...

Flame Atronach: At Lv 20 this is 200 fire damage/round (touch attacks will be hitting), and nearly indestructible if you play smart.

Frost Atronach: Only DR to ever get above 15 is DR /magic or /epic and typically even then only on CR 20+ creatures. The DR needs a heavy nerf. The AC bonus is also significant to make it rather crazy as a pet.

Storm Atronach: 231 Electricity damage/round and DR 25/- (this puts it in the "Immune to most creatures in the Monster Manual" level); this needs a heavy nerf.

All three options make animal companions cry, and tier 3 melee (short of uber charging warblade and crusader have difficulties doing this kind of damage, ubercharging has a ton of issues). They do make taking other levels to get free 11+ spell level save DCs and

Mask Enhancements:
1st: This more than covers WBL as a note.
2nd: Improved Mettle should not be on there (it's heavy immunity to a lot of effects and coupled with Ward and Improved Evasion is pretty much immunity to anything allowing a save).
3rd: DR is far too high for what other defensive things this class gets and just in general (monsters either rely on single attacks with low accuracy which ward shuts down, saves which you've already shut down, or many attacks dealing ~15 damage which this shuts down).
4th: High Will + High Wis + Improved Mettle + Save Substitution Will.

Fluff/Flavor: I can see what you're trying to do with Skyrim's dragonpriests but... Representing their wards and sudden buffing would be better done by allowing them to create some sort of ward weave wherein they combine several defensive spells then giving them the ability to cast 4 attack spells each round. Their staffs are closer to an eldritch blast style spammable attack than 4 save or dies. The whole cannot have other wealth thing just doesn't work as a character class ability. The atronachs are vastly overpowered as pet creatures and also just weird with the fluff since that wasn't common.

The only real limiter this class has is it can only get a +2 enhancement bonus to its ability scores and its spell list is admittedly bad. Its atronach is more than enough to make up for both problems (being a more than fully powered character in and of itself). It will have issues at low levels (if WBL is enforced which is an oddity it will not get full plate till ~lv 8) but it's still as good as a sorcerer at that point with its heightened CL, and spells per day (assuming 14 Cha and 18 Wis); that would not push them towards save or loses thankfully. Once it gets the atronach its two fully functional characters, both with abilities that break the game numbers.

sirpercival
2014-09-04, 04:43 PM
hey temotei would you write some fluff for my entry pls? thx. kidding, of course, but according to my advisor i'm supposed to be working 70-hour weeks right now... not much time for fluff...

Xhosant
2014-09-04, 04:50 PM
Alright...

Dragon Priest Artifacts Rules:

Rule 1: [...]

Rule 2: [...]

Rule 3/4: No problems.

This 'rule', you speak of. Sounds important. What is it?

Zaydos
2014-09-04, 04:51 PM
This 'rule', you speak of. Sounds important. What is it?

Ones from the class; 1. no other magic items; 2. you only get 10% WBL; 3. No enchanting the three items; 4. they count as divine foci.

Xhosant
2014-09-04, 04:53 PM
Ones from the class; 1. no other magic items; 2. you only get 10% WBL; 3. No enchanting the three items; 4. they count as divine foci.

Oh, damn, thought it was a 'first stop checklist' or something for homebrew.

Network
2014-09-04, 07:13 PM
So it's time to exchanged fruits (PEACHes naturally, got a bit of a monkey in me), exchange NPCs, and I guess I'm taking requests for races to make more substitution levels for :smallconfused:
Could you by any chance do the cyber dragonkin class? Everything but modules is done, I still need to do that last part (which I'll probably do this weekend). I'd especially like to get feedback on the fluff and class features.

Zaydos
2014-09-04, 07:35 PM
Could you by any chance do the cyber dragonkin class? Everything but modules is done, I still need to do that last part (which I'll probably do this weekend). I'd especially like to get feedback on the fluff and class features.

I can try once the modules are up; I will have to look over the PoC stuff, and note that I'm not actually particularly familiar with Incarnum (still can't figure out how to build Incarnates for example). Don't usually give much feedback on fluff (unless it relates to some other existing work or it's a matter of fluff-mechanic mismatch), it's so subjective, but I'll give it a shot.

Edit: Looking over it, I'd advice against +13 Strength on full BAB even with +5 being inherent, but that's just capstone and sees less play and at a point where balance wavers the most wildly. Other than that I'd say some of the abilities could be spaced out a little more; you currently get +5 Strength over 5 levels (and then a big boost at 20th of another +8), +4 natural armor over 4 levels, and... well Integral Armor is the weakest of them and I'd advice starting it at +4 much earlier and maybe even letting it reach +8 by high-mid levels (10th). Greater Mage Armor, for example, is a 3rd level spell, and Inertial Armor for +8 AC is 9 PP. I'd also suggest giving the fly speed portion of draconic wings earlier. What I might actually do is reshuffle so you get say flight and Iron Jaws at an earlier level and move some of the Strength and Natural Armor gain to a higher level. Just to space things out and make it more of a you get better at these things that you've been developing for a while instead of "You've reached 16th level, you gain new attack forms each level for the next 4". I don't really know.

Don't really have much to say about the fluff. Dragon obsessed transhumanism. I'd expect it to come up quite a bit this contest (my own flip-flopped between this and dragon worship). You might want to give them a module that lets them get trapfinding.

r2d2go
2014-09-04, 09:19 PM
Alright, done with stats and part of equipment for the Dragonsoul Acolyte, as posted in the Sinister Spire :smalltongue: putting it here, too: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1005621

Also, Temotei, just noticed - the code you put up has the C in Class outside the size change - is that intentional, to make it bigger? Looks like: CLASS NAME, instead of CLASS NAME.

Zaydos
2014-09-04, 09:27 PM
Thanks made me realize the table wasn't clear on breath weapon increases (should be 3 dice + Charisma at 5th)

r2d2go
2014-09-04, 09:42 PM
Thanks made me realize the table wasn't clear on breath weapon increases (should be 3 dice + Charisma at 5th)

No problem :smallsmile: Pretty well balanced for the power you're aiming for, I think. Haven't looked through all the dragons or anything but the class abilities and the dragons I looked through are all good. If you're done with the stats, I'd say mostly all you have left is polishing up the wording. You could probably buff it a bit, but no obvious problems as is :smallbiggrin:

Temotei
2014-09-04, 10:51 PM
hey temotei would you write some fluff for my entry pls? thx. kidding, of course, but according to my advisor i'm supposed to be working 70-hour weeks right now... not much time for fluff...

It makes me feel good that you would trust fluff to me. :smallredface:

Also, bleugh at those hours. Those are all too common for my tastes. Good luck, man.


Also, Temotei, just noticed - the code you put up has the C in Class outside the size change - is that intentional, to make it bigger? Looks like: CLASS NAME, instead of CLASS NAME.

Definitely intentional.

Zaydos
2014-09-05, 09:43 PM
Madness Log; Addendum: I thought I had escaped, but alas the hounds... the hounds they chase me. I have begun rounding the walls, I believe they move through angles alone, but still the madness it is here. I have seen dwarves, elves, humans, and half-breeds succumb to it, succumb and become something not quite what they were. Even the sons of jinns, heroes of folk lore, bootleggers and prophets of doom have been unable to escape it. They come... they come for me.

Translation: Added Racial Substitution levels for dwarves, elves, humans, half-elves, and half-orcs. Also decided as a lark to add theurgic feats for all the base classes I've won contests with.

boomwolf
2014-09-06, 08:42 AM
Dragons huh?

Amusing, I was just working on dragon classes from another direction, a directory of construction of custom dragons that is to replace all the "true dragon" variants with a single, massively customizable entry that covers most if not all possible combination of dragon features.
Just body types are split into 5-"classic", "arcane", "swift", "pit" and "brute", then 4 breath types-"cone", "line", "blast", and "furnace". the end result is intended to be the "infinite combination of dragons". (there are 20 combos before even entering into elements, and as I intend to have even the sum-elements like "radiant" "shadow" "negative" and the like in the mix, each with their own effects, it will end up huge. and then spellcasting enters the mix for classics and arcane dragons.)
Though having them go up to level 40 and all might be spinning a bit out of hand for base classes :P

Should I complete it in time (or at least ONE of the five breeds), am I allowed to enter these into the competition? its more of a racial class than a base class, but it DOES fit the theme...

And yes, they will have 1HD as a point of start, although not recommended for use-it WILL exist.

ezkajii
2014-09-07, 12:53 AM
Just put mine up - first homebrew posting on this site and (therefore) first posting in a competition! Will gladly trade PEACHes with anyone who's willing! :smallsmile:

r2d2go
2014-09-07, 12:54 AM
Dragons huh?

Amusing, I was just working on dragon classes from another direction, a directory of construction of custom dragons that is to replace all the "true dragon" variants with a single, massively customizable entry that covers most if not all possible combination of dragon features.
Just body types are split into 5-"classic", "arcane", "swift", "pit" and "brute", then 4 breath types-"cone", "line", "blast", and "furnace". the end result is intended to be the "infinite combination of dragons". (there are 20 combos before even entering into elements, and as I intend to have even the sum-elements like "radiant" "shadow" "negative" and the like in the mix, each with their own effects, it will end up huge. and then spellcasting enters the mix for classics and arcane dragons.)
Though having them go up to level 40 and all might be spinning a bit out of hand for base classes :P

Should I complete it in time (or at least ONE of the five breeds), am I allowed to enter these into the competition? its more of a racial class than a base class, but it DOES fit the theme...

And yes, they will have 1HD as a point of start, although not recommended for use-it WILL exist.

Infinite is hard - you'll need to write stats for unlimited number of HD/levels if you want to go there, or some sort of other sliding scale that is infinitely divisible :smalltongue:

Lots of things going on, this is kinda on hold... I'll keep up with Sinister Spire though.

Temotei
2014-09-07, 01:19 AM
Dragons huh?

Amusing, I was just working on dragon classes from another direction, a directory of construction of custom dragons that is to replace all the "true dragon" variants with a single, massively customizable entry that covers most if not all possible combination of dragon features.
Just body types are split into 5-"classic", "arcane", "swift", "pit" and "brute", then 4 breath types-"cone", "line", "blast", and "furnace". the end result is intended to be the "infinite combination of dragons". (there are 20 combos before even entering into elements, and as I intend to have even the sum-elements like "radiant" "shadow" "negative" and the like in the mix, each with their own effects, it will end up huge. and then spellcasting enters the mix for classics and arcane dragons.)
Though having them go up to level 40 and all might be spinning a bit out of hand for base classes :P

Should I complete it in time (or at least ONE of the five breeds), am I allowed to enter these into the competition? its more of a racial class than a base class, but it DOES fit the theme...

And yes, they will have 1HD as a point of start, although not recommended for use-it WILL exist.

It'll probably work. Up to level 20 for the base and then expand if you like, just like a base class.

Zaydos
2014-09-07, 03:03 AM
Just put mine up - first homebrew posting on this site and (therefore) first posting in a competition! Will gladly trade PEACHes with anyone who's willing! :smallsmile:

Alright; warning it's past 3 AM so a little rambly.

Fluff: I'm not really getting why the non-extreme alignment clause. I can kind of get the "balance of all dragons" concept, but with Io's position as the Ninefold Dragon who is all alignments but none (and the source of all dragons) it seems odd, especially coupled with how all Core true dragons are of extreme alignments.

Class itself:

Hit Dice: Honestly I'd rather see d12 here and less Con bonuses. They're ultimately a melee class, or pushed a little towards it (Powerful Build + Unarmed Strike) and they're really squishy until around 8th level (+4 Con to give them 10s) and then crazy hit point pools by 20th (+10 Con). I'd cut it to +6 Con over 20, dropping their Fort save by 2, and increase hit dice to d10 or d12 (the former increasing Lv 20 hp by 2, the latter by 24).

Skills: Personally I'm one of those people who hate 2 + Int off of Int based classes. Also why Handle Animal? Or more why Handle Animal and not Knowledge (Nature)?

Chassis: Good BAB, good Will. I'd say below average but can work, looking through them I was expecting good Fort as well, but their +10 Con gives them effectively Good Fort so it's probably a good choice.

Weapon/Armor: Ok, fully capable proficiencies although you have to choose melee or range. Leaves you needing 1 feat to really make use of Medium armor, but you might do that where you wouldn't 2 feats.

Unarmed Damage: Ought to note that the table is for Medium size. But 2 bonus feats (in effect), but ones that might not (quite likely not to) see any use depending upon build, does open up for Snap Kick goodness.

Spells: ~ Bard casting from the Sorc list. Kind of curious about the early access Make Whole, and will note that Limited Wish lets them cast their entire spell list in effect so is probably a must take.

Draconic Enhancement: +4 Strength, +10 Constitution, +3 Int/Wis/Cha. The Strength bonus is reasonable by 20th on a melee combatant, half of Mighty Rage has so upsides and some downsides. The Con in effect gives them d16 HD and Good Fort, not unreasonable but I still dislike the massive change in durability from 1st level (squishy rogue level) to high levels (hp tank++), not because it gets too high, but because it starts so low; at the very least I'd up their HD to d8s. The mental ability score bonuses are nice, helping to make up for low Skill Points and MAD a little by bolstering a poor Charisma.

Overland Movement: I meant to include this in Dragon Form, *shrugs* DSA gets enough already. Regardless nice touch.

Draconic Resistances: Some of them are odd (disease/poison/planar traits) but none are unbalanced or completely ridiculous. Poison is a fairly common dragon immunity (not so much disease) and between their elemental subtypes, gem dragons, and planar dragons the planar traits part makes sense.

Powerful Build: Nice Lv 3 ability, helps make them relevant before 2nd level spells.

Keen Senses: Scent is the best of these. I was a little surprised to see it double since I didn't even think true dragons got scent (checking they don't), but it's a nice ability and they really should (Smaug and Bilbo). I'd actually be tempted to move this down a little. The 9th level doubling of senses is again nice, not a big bonus (except again for scent) but far from useless. Blindsense is also pretty useful when you get it, a step up from scent but you know that already.

Bonus Feat: Shot-on-the-Run without prereqs is nice. Power Attack is the other really good one. Flyby Attack could be with their access to the Fly spell but I worry it has to compete with so many other 2nd level spells for slots (especially Wraithstrike).

Speed Bonus: Reasonable, a bit of a monk feel to this class.

Specialize Adaptations:

Cave Dragon: Either quite good, or quite useless (if you can burrow burrow is awesome, but you often can't). Advanced Adaptation is eventually obsoleted but a great sensory method for 4 levels.

Mountain Dragon: Climb speed is nice and when it's useful useful. You can also use this to get up out of melee range, in theory, to lob spells so that's something. Advanced Adaptation needs to be at least as a monk of your level.

Sage Dragon: Probably the best adaptation. Immunity to Mind-Affecting at 10th is pretty early and I've seen people say it's too early as late as 13th. Normally I'd peg this as a ~12-15 level ability. The save bonus is also pretty useful and more likely to show up than say a burrow speed and when you need it it's so good.

Nimble Dragon: I'd make the Freedom of Movement effect Su myself. It's a strong effect at 10th level, but not unreasonable; as a note 3/day with full duration should see it up whenever it matters. The basic one is also good and depending upon DM I might end up with this as my first one.

Water Dragon: I'd say this one is worse than the Mountain Dragon or Cave Dragon. I'd up the Swim speed to Land speed. Even then without water breathing a swim speed is only so-so

Massive Dragon: The weakest. Wind effects just aren't common, and +50% weight is more likely a disadvantage than an advantage.

Brilliant Dragon: Unless you're undead the advanced is obsoleted by Sage Dragon's (all patterns are mind-affecting). The beginning is decent but unlikely to come up often. I'd say this is the 2nd worst.

I'd probably go Sage/Nimble/Water/Cave or Mountain; the first two could switch and the last three could rearrange as well, though.

Damage Reduction: I am personally never a fan of DR 20. Here this will put some monsters' attacks down flat (pit fiends), mildly impact a balor, and do nothing to a dragon. That said it's a reasonable ability because it can be overcome. Gets a lot stronger at 16th and 19th as it pushes past the damage threshold for attacks (i.e. a lot of attacks do not deal more damage than this past this level) where as before that most creatures will be able to power through it at least.

SR: Reasonable amount. Might drop this to 8th level, as it is (relatively) empty.

Frightful Presence: I'd drop the range to 15-ft per level, it feels odd they get it larger than Great Wyrms, and leave the hit dice for panicked at 5 flat. But this is more thematic reasons than power level.

Crush: Rather meh, but it fills the level. Should note the save DC.

Draconic Aging: Like Timeless Body this ability can get problematic, actually far worse than timeless body. In actual play it shouldn't be problematic unless somebody is playing a several century old elan. The DM will just need to say "no, you can't start as someone who has been 15th level in this class for 900 years" outside of that.


Draconic Prestige: Save DC should be normal (10 +1/2 level + Cha mod). Even then I'd say it should be like sanctuary and if you've attacked them then they don't need a save, at least if you've attempted lethal force yourself.

Draconic Ascension: Mechanically almost a non-ability, and possibly a debuff depending upon how much you like Enlarge Person, but fits thematically.

Overall: Looks fairly balanced. Looks like it'd have power curve issues with really weak lower levels and then... well tier 3 higher levels, you might want to give them Scent at Lv 2, and d8 hit dice to help this a bit, as at the moment until Lv 3 they're a bad Warrior. Maybe move 1st level spells or powerful build down to 2nd level. Other than that it checks out pretty well, although Draconic Prestige bothers me (specifically the heightened DC + ability to attack with level force and not be responded to in kind especially without it being mind-affecting).

Hope this helps a bit, looks real nice for a first try at homebrew.

boomwolf
2014-09-07, 05:43 AM
It'll probably work. Up to level 20 for the base and then expand if you like, just like a base class.


Well, its rather a necessity to make a continues progression until 40, after all many dragon properties don't even begin to kick in until later levels. I can cut the table into two parts, but it will be mere semantics, as the entire "class" will be intended for continiues progression, without deviations or multiclassing what-so-ever. under these assumptions-does it still "fly"?


Something else I noticed is that the table tools in the forums changed....this means all my older creations are no longer functional. a shame. also means I'll need to rework all my tables for the dragons...

ezkajii
2014-09-07, 12:59 PM
Alright; warning it's past 3 AM so a little rambly.

Fluff: I'm not really getting why the non-extreme alignment clause. I can kind of get the "balance of all dragons" concept, but with Io's position as the Ninefold Dragon who is all alignments but none (and the source of all dragons) it seems odd, especially coupled with how all Core true dragons are of extreme alignments.
>>Oh, I actually was not familiar with Io, I thought for Core it was just Bahamut and Tiamat :smallredface:

Class itself:

Hit Dice: Honestly I'd rather see d12 here and less Con bonuses. They're ultimately a melee class, or pushed a little towards it (Powerful Build + Unarmed Strike) and they're really squishy until around 8th level (+4 Con to give them 10s) and then crazy hit point pools by 20th (+10 Con). I'd cut it to +6 Con over 20, dropping their Fort save by 2, and increase hit dice to d10 or d12 (the former increasing Lv 20 hp by 2, the latter by 24).
>>Fun fact - I actually did intend originally to have the class as a d8 HD class, but the Con bonuses I was giving made that seem intense. Reworked the Con bonuses to total +8, with a +2 at 2nd level, and bumped it up to d8.

Skills: Personally I'm one of those people who hate 2 + Int off of Int based classes. Also why Handle Animal? Or more why Handle Animal and not Knowledge (Nature)?
>>AAAhhhh! Forgot about knowledge (nature)! Also, Handle Animal just to represent the powerful force of personality that dragons have, mostly.

Chassis: Good BAB, good Will. I'd say below average but can work, looking through them I was expecting good Fort as well, but their +10 Con gives them effectively Good Fort so it's probably a good choice.

Weapon/Armor: Ok, fully capable proficiencies although you have to choose melee or range. Leaves you needing 1 feat to really make use of Medium armor, but you might do that where you wouldn't 2 feats.
>>What feat would that be?

Unarmed Damage: Ought to note that the table is for Medium size. But 2 bonus feats (in effect), but ones that might not (quite likely not to) see any use depending upon build, does open up for Snap Kick goodness.
>>Good catch, thank you.

Spells: ~ Bard casting from the Sorc list. Kind of curious about the early access Make Whole, and will note that Limited Wish lets them cast their entire spell list in effect so is probably a must take.

Draconic Enhancement: +4 Strength, +10 Constitution, +3 Int/Wis/Cha. The Strength bonus is reasonable by 20th on a melee combatant, half of Mighty Rage has so upsides and some downsides. The Con in effect gives them d16 HD and Good Fort, not unreasonable but I still dislike the massive change in durability from 1st level (squishy rogue level) to high levels (hp tank++), not because it gets too high, but because it starts so low; at the very least I'd up their HD to d8s. The mental ability score bonuses are nice, helping to make up for low Skill Points and MAD a little by bolstering a poor Charisma.

Overland Movement: I meant to include this in Dragon Form, *shrugs* DSA gets enough already. Regardless nice touch.

Draconic Resistances: Some of them are odd (disease/poison/planar traits) but none are unbalanced or completely ridiculous. Poison is a fairly common dragon immunity (not so much disease) and between their elemental subtypes, gem dragons, and planar dragons the planar traits part makes sense.

Powerful Build: Nice Lv 3 ability, helps make them relevant before 2nd level spells.

Keen Senses: Scent is the best of these. I was a little surprised to see it double since I didn't even think true dragons got scent (checking they don't), but it's a nice ability and they really should (Smaug and Bilbo). I'd actually be tempted to move this down a little. The 9th level doubling of senses is again nice, not a big bonus (except again for scent) but far from useless. Blindsense is also pretty useful when you get it, a step up from scent but you know that already.
>>Yeah scent was being used as kind of a 'precursor' to true blindsense.

Bonus Feat: Shot-on-the-Run without prereqs is nice. Power Attack is the other really good one. Flyby Attack could be with their access to the Fly spell but I worry it has to compete with so many other 2nd level spells for slots (especially Wraithstrike).

Speed Bonus: Reasonable, a bit of a monk feel to this class.

Specialize Adaptations:
>>Made an effort to rebalance the adaptations within themselves, and make them more useful.

Cave Dragon: Either quite good, or quite useless (if you can burrow burrow is awesome, but you often can't). Advanced Adaptation is eventually obsoleted but a great sensory method for 4 levels.

Mountain Dragon: Climb speed is nice and when it's useful useful. You can also use this to get up out of melee range, in theory, to lob spells so that's something. Advanced Adaptation needs to be at least as a monk of your level.

Sage Dragon: Probably the best adaptation. Immunity to Mind-Affecting at 10th is pretty early and I've seen people say it's too early as late as 13th. Normally I'd peg this as a ~12-15 level ability. The save bonus is also pretty useful and more likely to show up than say a burrow speed and when you need it it's so good.

Nimble Dragon: I'd make the Freedom of Movement effect Su myself. It's a strong effect at 10th level, but not unreasonable; as a note 3/day with full duration should see it up whenever it matters. The basic one is also good and depending upon DM I might end up with this as my first one.

Water Dragon: I'd say this one is worse than the Mountain Dragon or Cave Dragon. I'd up the Swim speed to Land speed. Even then without water breathing a swim speed is only so-so

Massive Dragon: The weakest. Wind effects just aren't common, and +50% weight is more likely a disadvantage than an advantage.

Brilliant Dragon: Unless you're undead the advanced is obsoleted by Sage Dragon's (all patterns are mind-affecting). The beginning is decent but unlikely to come up often. I'd say this is the 2nd worst.

I'd probably go Sage/Nimble/Water/Cave or Mountain; the first two could switch and the last three could rearrange as well, though.

Damage Reduction: I am personally never a fan of DR 20. Here this will put some monsters' attacks down flat (pit fiends), mildly impact a balor, and do nothing to a dragon. That said it's a reasonable ability because it can be overcome. Gets a lot stronger at 16th and 19th as it pushes past the damage threshold for attacks (i.e. a lot of attacks do not deal more damage than this past this level) where as before that most creatures will be able to power through it at least.
>>As I've seen said many times on the forums, DR /magic is relatively useless and higher levels, with so many natural weapons bypassing it and pretty much every creature with class levels going to have magic weapons. Plus it basically mimics the dragon's progression, so I thought it fine to keep. :smallsmile:

SR: Reasonable amount. Might drop this to 8th level, as it is (relatively) empty.

Frightful Presence: I'd drop the range to 15-ft per level, it feels odd they get it larger than Great Wyrms, and leave the hit dice for panicked at 5 flat. But this is more thematic reasons than power level.
>>That makes sense, I didn't even check to compare it at max level. Done and done.

Crush: Rather meh, but it fills the level. Should note the save DC.
>>Whoops, yeah :smallredface:

Draconic Aging: Like Timeless Body this ability can get problematic, actually far worse than timeless body. In actual play it shouldn't be problematic unless somebody is playing a several century old elan. The DM will just need to say "no, you can't start as someone who has been 15th level in this class for 900 years" outside of that.
>>TBH I was kind of banking on that. Trying to pull that kind of move in a real campaign sounds like some super cheese to me.


Draconic Prestige: Save DC should be normal (10 +1/2 level + Cha mod). Even then I'd say it should be like sanctuary and if you've attacked them then they don't need a save, at least if you've attempted lethal force yourself.
>>Tweaked it a little, let me know what you think.

Draconic Ascension: Mechanically almost a non-ability, and possibly a debuff depending upon how much you like Enlarge Person, but fits thematically.
>>Adjusted to compensate for the debuff aspect.

Overall: Looks fairly balanced. Looks like it'd have power curve issues with really weak lower levels and then... well tier 3 higher levels, you might want to give them Scent at Lv 2, and d8 hit dice to help this a bit, as at the moment until Lv 3 they're a bad Warrior. Maybe move 1st level spells or powerful build down to 2nd level. Other than that it checks out pretty well, although Draconic Prestige bothers me (specifically the heightened DC + ability to attack with level force and not be responded to in kind especially without it being mind-affecting).
>>Should've noted that draconic prestige would be mind-affecting, that makes sense. Other than that, I originally had Powerful Build at 2nd level, but then I realized that this class would make a hell of a two-level dip for certain builds (powerful build and dragonblood subtype, with good will saves? Sounds like clerical abuse to me.)

Hope this helps a bit, looks real nice for a first try at homebrew.

Thank you very much! All very insightful - and not terribly rambling either! :smallbiggrin:My return-PEACH to follow shortly.

ezkajii
2014-09-07, 01:53 PM
@Zaydos:

Fluff: Feels a lot like dragon disciple - but that's totally okay.
Hoard Abilities: It is unclear how long the benefits last. Do they last for the entire day? Otherwise, I really like the selections available and the price-balance seems quite on-point.
Claws: Just a small note about the changing of 'person' from second-person to third-person mid-entry.
Cantrips: I really like the idea of gaining cantrips as at-will SLAs. Curious why specific ones require a certain minimum level - are these just ones you viewed as more spammable? Also, I assume the caster level is just equal to your class levels?
Immunities: Immunity to sleep at level three is plenty good, given that elves get it at effectively level zero. Now I'm obviously newer to this stuff but it seems like immunity to paralysis at level three is SUPER GOOD. It's one of the most effective foe-control methods, and seems like a fairly uncommon resistance outside of the world of dragons. Maybe scale it so paralysis comes online more like level 6 or 8?
Spell Pool: This ability is obviously at the core of the class, just underneath the dragon tutelage concept. I would recommend adding a column to the class table that indicates the highest-level spell they can use from their spell pool. As well, it seems somewhat confusing to have the amount of power required to use the spells decrease with level-up when the amount of points to spend on doing so increases as well. I would recommend having each level use a specific number of points (perhaps equal to the equivalent spell level +1), and increase the amount of spell pool points to ensure the # of uses per day you were aiming for, just to kind of streamline it. I like substituting psionics for sorcery as appropriate for the Tutelary Dragon - nice touch, especially with the augmentation system.
+2 Strength and +2 Charisma: Might just be my own personal sense of organization but I would recommend giving these abilities a name like Strength Boost or something, just so the ability doesn't start with a plus sign. Eh.
Fangs: I might make a connection between the Fangs ability and the Fundamentalis Diet ability, which mentions you don't get any specific method of chewing up harsh materials - it's pretty common sense from a DMing standpoint but couldn't hurt to have spelled out.

Overall, I noticed our classes are actually more similar than I would've expected. (I made a point not to read any existing submissions before making mine.) That's (hopefully) mostly just due to it being a unifying theme, and dragons having a certain set of abilities to be emulated.
I particularly like the Hoard ability - between that and the HUGE amount of dragon support you've provided, you've got a lot of room for character customization even before the spell pool enters into the equation. And the 'new mechanics' from your class aren't convoluted or hard to pick up. I feel like a lot of classes that introduce new mechanics make them way too intricate and they becoem inaccessible or off-putting, but you've got everything spelled out pretty clearly, for the most part. All in all, seems like a pretty solid, logical class.

Zaydos
2014-09-07, 03:18 PM
General note: still willing to exchange NPC stats if anyone is game, also check the Pit of Calamity if you want to try and build a char of your own to throw into some senseless fights.


Thank you very much! All very insightful - and not terribly rambling either! :smallbiggrin:My return-PEACH to follow shortly.

>Io is talked about in the Draconomicon and mentioned briefly in the Manual of the Planes; he got demoted to Lesser Deity once, but normally is a Greater Deity and possible candidate for Overdeity (as he's often ascribed the role of making the Great Wheel/world). He's known as the 9 Fold Dragon and each dragon species is supposed to see their own alignment and Bahamut and Tiamat are sometimes listed as his children, his good and evil halves, although Bahamut is also suspected of being Lendys and Tamara's son (apparently they're married, and both appear as wingless and stained platinum dragons according to the 2e sources).

>I can understand the way you'd hop about on that.

>Can understand that, I was rather saddened not to have a good excuse to give it to more tutelary dragons.

>Battle Caster (Complete Arcane page 75).

>Specializations: Look a little better balanced against each other now, I will note that as written the tremorsense range doubles before you get tremorsense (was that supposed to be 18th level?).

>DR I could go on a paragraph explanation of how it impacts 5 different types of high level encounters I often run, but you've already shown you get what I was getting at so I won't.

>Draconic Aging: Yeah; it's the kind of thing I couldn't not point out, because (especially in PbPs) I've had people try and pull that kind of thing, but it's not really problem (by that point it was near 4 AM and I was probably less than clear).

>Draconic Prestige: Changes look good.

>And yeah I can see why


@Zaydos:

Fluff: Feels a lot like dragon disciple - but that's totally okay.
Hoard Abilities: It is unclear how long the benefits last. Do they last for the entire day? Otherwise, I really like the selections available and the price-balance seems quite on-point.
Claws: Just a small note about the changing of 'person' from second-person to third-person mid-entry.
Cantrips: I really like the idea of gaining cantrips as at-will SLAs. Curious why specific ones require a certain minimum level - are these just ones you viewed as more spammable? Also, I assume the caster level is just equal to your class levels?
Immunities: Immunity to sleep at level three is plenty good, given that elves get it at effectively level zero. Now I'm obviously newer to this stuff but it seems like immunity to paralysis at level three is SUPER GOOD. It's one of the most effective foe-control methods, and seems like a fairly uncommon resistance outside of the world of dragons. Maybe scale it so paralysis comes online more like level 6 or 8?
Spell Pool: This ability is obviously at the core of the class, just underneath the dragon tutelage concept. I would recommend adding a column to the class table that indicates the highest-level spell they can use from their spell pool. As well, it seems somewhat confusing to have the amount of power required to use the spells decrease with level-up when the amount of points to spend on doing so increases as well. I would recommend having each level use a specific number of points (perhaps equal to the equivalent spell level +1), and increase the amount of spell pool points to ensure the # of uses per day you were aiming for, just to kind of streamline it. I like substituting psionics for sorcery as appropriate for the Tutelary Dragon - nice touch, especially with the augmentation system.
+2 Strength and +2 Charisma: Might just be my own personal sense of organization but I would recommend giving these abilities a name like Strength Boost or something, just so the ability doesn't start with a plus sign. Eh.
Fangs: I might make a connection between the Fangs ability and the Fundamentalis Diet ability, which mentions you don't get any specific method of chewing up harsh materials - it's pretty common sense from a DMing standpoint but couldn't hurt to have spelled out.

Overall, I noticed our classes are actually more similar than I would've expected. (I made a point not to read any existing submissions before making mine.) That's (hopefully) mostly just due to it being a unifying theme, and dragons having a certain set of abilities to be emulated.
I particularly like the Hoard ability - between that and the HUGE amount of dragon support you've provided, you've got a lot of room for character customization even before the spell pool enters into the equation. And the 'new mechanics' from your class aren't convoluted or hard to pick up. I feel like a lot of classes that introduce new mechanics make them way too intricate and they becoem inaccessible or off-putting, but you've got everything spelled out pretty clearly, for the most part. All in all, seems like a pretty solid, logical class.

Hoard abilities should be for 24 hours, will edit to clarify.

Claws: Thanks for the catch.

Cantrips: CL = Class level, will add. And level requirements were either do to spammable functionality (ghost sound) or how they have the potential to warp the game world (at-will mending/prestidigitation).

Immunities: I've honestly not seen paralysis come up that often (and have learned to avoid it as a DM as it tends to result in one player just really not having much fun), I might just leave it off till they gain the dragon type (as it's part of the type); I'll have to think a little more about this.

Spell Pool:The reason I did it how I did were many faceted. Partially it's the math, I'd have to actually go with at least 5 cost levels to have the point costs stay stable instead of 3, and lose the aspect that your highest level spell doesn't actually cost you more than what you'd been using for 3-4 levels, but is limited by that you only get 1. Additionally it let me give you abilities that inherently scale with level or are just things that (unlike most low level spells) stay about as useful throughout the entire game (there are spells that are exceptions to this, or which grow stronger with levels *cough* wraithstrike *cough*) that cost spell pool points and not need to have them change or make certain draconic aspects strong when you get them but become only occasionally used later. At the same time I will admit the system has difficult spots (trying to make feats that gave you extra Spell Pool Points taught me that).

+2 X: Maybe Draconic Body and Draconic Spirit as names?

Overall: Thanks. The only class I looked over beyond the name before making mine was the Dragon Priest because that was the original name I was going to give the Dragonsoul Acolyte and I wanted to double check how much of a dragon priest they really were. I do not find that two classes with names starting with Dragonsoul are similar to be too surprising, though; I mean shows thought coming from the same basic place, but they are two quite different takes on the concept (one emphasizes all in one-ness the other is very much tied to a specific dragon in the end). Yours is definitely the more different take (mine is in many ways thematically a dragon totem shaman replacement... I am fine with edging dts out of its fluff space because dragon totem shaman was ill-designed and Dragon Magic pushed it from blegh to why even bother with the Draconic Aura feat). But yeah it's a natural go to theme; if it had been intentional it would have been a well done take that at how unoriginal I was being though :smalltongue: But the mechanics showed otherwise pretty quickly.

Temotei
2014-09-07, 03:27 PM
Well, its rather a necessity to make a continues progression until 40, after all many dragon properties don't even begin to kick in until later levels. I can cut the table into two parts, but it will be mere semantics, as the entire "class" will be intended for continiues progression, without deviations or multiclassing what-so-ever. under these assumptions-does it still "fly"?

I'm interested, and I think it's really in the spirit of the contest, so yeah, it should work. Let's see what it looks like in a post, yeah? :smalltongue:


Something else I noticed is that the table tools in the forums changed....this means all my older creations are no longer functional. a shame. also means I'll need to rework all my tables for the dragons...

Yeah. Best advice: Use this (http://makaze-kanra.tumblr.com/ForumTableConverter) to replace all of your old tables, then look at the code to learn how to make the new ones yourself. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341034) is a good resource for getting a start on that, too.

ezkajii
2014-09-07, 11:35 PM
as written the tremorsense range doubles before you get tremorsense (was that supposed to be 18th level?).

Oh, whoops. Changed it to a flat 100ft - remains useful even after gaining blindsense, no weird pre-doubling.


+2 X: Maybe Draconic Body and Draconic Spirit as names?

Sounds good to me! :smallsmile:

boomwolf
2014-09-08, 06:01 AM
Yeah. Best advice: Use this (http://makaze-kanra.tumblr.com/ForumTableConverter) to replace all of your old tables, then look at the code to learn how to make the new ones yourself. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341034) is a good resource for getting a start on that, too.


This will be mighty handy, given that my current system creates an old style table automatically, and this will allow conversion to new style. its just one step without the need to spend much time to learn the new system. thank you.

Zaydos
2014-09-08, 05:02 PM
Madness Log: I did something massively OoC for me. I added Kurtulmak as an option for a (deific) tutelary dragon because he was either made a god by Io him/herself or is Tiamat's son, either of which made him close enough in my opinion but still recognizing any claim of dragonhood from kobolds is not like me. I also recognized the existence of the RoD web enhancement on kobolds, at least in so far as the Kobold domain is concerned. Also added Gnome and Halfling Substitution levels, and some stuff for Half-Dragon DSAs (mostly so you aren't penalized for choosing your ancestor as your tutelary dragon, but also earlier wings). Will take suggestions for races to make substitution levels for, and I am planning a Half-Dragon one but I've got to think of one more level to apply it to.

Network
2014-09-08, 06:26 PM
Will take suggestions for races to make substitution levels for, and I am planning a Half-Dragon one but I've got to think of one more level to apply it to.
What about illithid substitution levels? I'm asking half-seriously, I don't really care if you make one or not. But it'd be cool!

Zaydos
2014-09-08, 06:35 PM
What about illithid substitution levels? I'm asking half-seriously, I don't really care if you make one or not. But it'd be cool!

I'd need functional and playable illithids first. I mean what are they ECL 16? Ok checking it's 15. They could really use a lower ECL. I could actually see it working, though.

Edit: I mean I have ideas, but anything I made for official illithid would be building off of something horribly unusable... Lv 4 would replace your dragon's normal spell pool with psionic powers as if you had a gem dragon and let you access higher level psionics than usual (specifically 6th or lower, shifting improved pool to 18th). You'd also be getting this at 19th level, and I don't actually trust myself with epic stuff. Ooh, ability to treat brains drawn from creatures with at least 12 Int as items for your hoard with a value of 50 GP per point of Int above 11 the creature had.

malonkey1
2014-09-08, 06:55 PM
Do you already have one for Spellscales and I missed it?

Beelzebub1111
2014-09-08, 07:02 PM
Warforged. Warforged substitutions for everything! Or maybe the Variant Lizardmen in MM3

Zaydos
2014-09-08, 10:26 PM
Do you already have one for Spellscales and I missed it?

No, but I do now. I will admit to having not liked spellscales the best when I first was introduced to them (actually I pretty much write out Races of the Dragon as a whole except for the chapter of feats), but they actually seem like they really fit DSAs so added one.


Warforged. Warforged substitutions for everything! Or maybe the Variant Lizardmen in MM3

Warforged... hmm... Poisondusk? I'll be contemplating both. And assuming LA buyoff is allowed with the latter/lower end of the optimization spectra where their racial abilities stay worthwhile (they are substantially more powerful than say halflings at Lv 1-2 where +3 AC, +2 Con and Str, and a suit of natural weapons all are pretty good, but not worth a level late game). Ooh they have racial claws :nale: I've been hoping for an excuse to have someone trade away the claws ability.

boomwolf
2014-09-09, 05:58 AM
Well, published the very beggining, just the "classical dragon" table, and some of the pre-crunch fluffy parts.

Now you remain to see what happens when a magicly-impared dragon becomes has affinity towards arcane, a hybrid rust/metal dragon is born, how sneaky are aquatic/dirt dragons, and other bizzare combinations.

Yes, "night fury" is an option. swiftwing with blast breath and force affinity creates pretty much that.

If anyone has ideas to more affinities to add, I'd love to hear. so far my list (not including dual affinity and hybrids, they just make weaker versions of two breaths combined, or alternate two mid-way options)

Fire, cold, lightning, acid, positive, negative, sonic, aquatic, force, poison, arcane, dirt, metal, rust, shadow, dream, chaos, light and crystal

dragonjek
2014-09-09, 03:43 PM
Zaydos, I found a dragon you haven't made anything for yet (it isn't with sirpercival's Ideals, either). Dungeon Magazine #110 as the Spinewyrm for Dark Sun. Although it is... weird. One of the least dragon-like of the dragon type, let alone true dragons (but not quite as much as the Li Lung does).

Zaydos
2014-09-09, 05:02 PM
Warforged. Warforged substitutions for everything! Or maybe the Variant Lizardmen in MM3

Added Warforged, still thinking about Poisondusk.


Well, published the very beggining, just the "classical dragon" table, and some of the pre-crunch fluffy parts.

Now you remain to see what happens when a magicly-impared dragon becomes has affinity towards arcane, a hybrid rust/metal dragon is born, how sneaky are aquatic/dirt dragons, and other bizzare combinations.

Yes, "night fury" is an option. swiftwing with blast breath and force affinity creates pretty much that.

If anyone has ideas to more affinities to add, I'd love to hear. so far my list (not including dual affinity and hybrids, they just make weaker versions of two breaths combined, or alternate two mid-way options)

Fire, cold, lightning, acid, positive, negative, sonic, aquatic, force, poison, arcane, dirt, metal, rust, shadow, dream, chaos, light and crystal

Nature, Divine, Spirit(?), Incarnum (I mean there's an official one), Law, Good, Evil (planar dragons baby), Social (look at Silver/Song/Steel), just some off the top of my head.


Zaydos, I found a dragon you haven't made anything for yet (it isn't with sirpercival's Ideals, either). Dungeon Magazine #110 as the Spinewyrm for Dark Sun. Although it is... weird. One of the least dragon-like of the dragon type, let alone true dragons (but not quite as much as the Li Lung does).

I skipped it because I only have 2 issues of Dungeon but that sounds like it's in the Dark Sun issue so I might have to hunt down my copy. Sorcerer kings having the physical stats of dragons :smallannoyed: I'd managed to forget they made a true dragon species for Athas :smallfrown:

Edit: Added Spinewyrm for 100% completion sake.

boomwolf
2014-09-10, 04:17 AM
Nature...not sure what breath and resistances can be paired with that. I'm under the impression that any acid or aquatic can make itself a "nature" dragon with the proper selection of spells.

Divine is outside what I am aiming for, even though its a nice idea. shadow/light/positive/negative should be able to take the place of divine dragons with their relation to life/undeath and all.

Incarnum would require a whole unique table to himself, he cannot work within exiting breeds. I know its out there, but I cant find a way to work with it without giving myself a headache. the fact I'm hardly familiar with incarnum to begin with is not helping.

Law/Good/Evil, as they might relate to chaos-but the chaos dragon is around the confusion and madness aspect of chaos, not the alignment itself. the planar dragons were never about alignments just random dragons that got from weird places (some were even simple dual elemental dragons). even if I decide to make them all an affinity, while law is something one can dragon with-good and evil are not really. what IS the essence of "good" and "evil" when diluted into a breath weapon?
Law is getting added though. he HAS potential.

Social, is a behavioral type, not an affinity type. silver dragons are just cold/paralysis type dragons who have some special abilities (who I do not favor to make available from birth, these are defiantly "legacy" abilities learned in levels 13,25,27,39 (for the classical, others got them at different levels) (need to find some affinity for paralysis breath though. good thing you made me look at silver)

So, right now the list is expanded to include the new affinities:
Law (not sure what to give it yet...)
Chrono (slowing/hasting breath)
Love (charming breath, silly affinity for a dragon at a glance, but think of the horror of an evil love dragon-his breath make people stop resisting and let him devour them.)
and find somewhere to stick paralysis. (maybe into law? I know I WANT law, but not sure what to give it...)


God I need to actually get around to finish the whole thing rather than have stockpiles of notes x_x I have TESTS coming!

Zaydos
2014-09-10, 01:24 PM
Madness Log Update: They're crawling in my mind! Erm... I mean... added Poisondusk Racial Substitution levels and a new feat.

Any more suggestions? I mean maybe I should do Dragonborn sub levels?

sirpercival
2014-09-10, 02:25 PM
I think you should do Lifetorn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13824881&postcount=2) racial sub levels.

Beelzebub1111
2014-09-10, 03:36 PM
Any more suggestions? I mean maybe I should do Dragonborn sub levels?
Kalashtar might be good with Gem dragons. I could also see Nezumi.

Zaydos
2014-09-11, 07:21 PM
Had to make another new post... I think that's a sign that I have enough racial substitution levels.


I think you should do Lifetorn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13824881&postcount=2) racial sub levels.

Added.


Kalashtar might be good with Gem dragons. I could also see Nezumi.

Added Kalashtar, did not add Nezumi (at least yet). If I knew Eberron better I'd be tempted to make Eberron, Syberus (I misspelled that), and um the Dragon Below(?) as Tutelary Dragons but I 1) don't know if it fits at all, and 2) don't even know their names properly.

Network
2014-09-11, 07:26 PM
If anyone has ideas to more affinities to add, I'd love to hear. so far my list (not including dual affinity and hybrids, they just make weaker versions of two breaths combined, or alternate two mid-way options)

Fire, cold, lightning, acid, positive, negative, sonic, aquatic, force, poison, arcane, dirt, metal, rust, shadow, dream, chaos, light and crystal
What about electricity, if only to complete the energy list? Maybe also affinities related to the environments (desert, forest, underground, etc.) or to unusual dragons (like agile dragons or dragons without a breath weapon, but a poisonous bite).

Incarnum would require a whole unique table to himself, he cannot work within exiting breeds. I know its out there, but I cant find a way to work with it without giving myself a headache. the fact I'm hardly familiar with incarnum to begin with is not helping.

Law/Good/Evil, as they might relate to chaos-but the chaos dragon is around the confusion and madness aspect of chaos, not the alignment itself. the planar dragons were never about alignments just random dragons that got from weird places (some were even simple dual elemental dragons). even if I decide to make them all an affinity, while law is something one can dragon with-good and evil are not really. what IS the essence of "good" and "evil" when diluted into a breath weapon?
Law is getting added though. he HAS potential.
If you can get Magic of Incarnum, there are 2 pages of well-written rules that explain how incarnum works. I'm not sure how your affinities will work mechanically, but I'd be inclined to think an incarnum-themed one wouldn't be too different from the other ones (a breath weapon? Have it damage/drain essentia. Spell-like abilities? There are some in MoI. Class features? Replace them with soulmelds). Of course, if you do not have MoI, you don't have to bother about incarnum.

In D&D, chaos has a clear-cut definition, which is as one element of the alignment system. While it's true that planar dragons are not really about alignment, that doesn't mean you cannot have good or evil dragons. Alignments are an essential part of D&D, aren't they? As for their breath weapon, I could see the good one being a cone of bliss (targets are happy and don't want to fight you) and the evil one being a cone of hopelessness that also heals you a couple hit points (evil is selfish, after all, and benefits from the misfortune of others).

Beelzebub1111
2014-09-11, 07:51 PM
Added Kalashtar, did not add Nezumi (at least yet). If I knew Eberron better I'd be tempted to make Eberron, Syberus (I misspelled that), and um the Dragon Below(?) as Tutelary Dragons but I 1) don't know if it fits at all, and 2) don't even know their names properly.
Eberron, Siberys, and Khyber are the creators. Eberron's body formed the earth enveloping Khyber. Siberys became the ring that surrounds the world. Their blood became the dragonshards that make their magical technology possible. It's really more of a creation myth than actual fact. Some dragons see it as a literal truth, Some as an allegory for one thing or another. I'd be happy to teach about the nuances of draconic prophecy, if you so desire.

malonkey1
2014-09-11, 08:38 PM
Eberron, Siberys, and Khyber are the creators. Eberron's body formed the earth enveloping Khyber. Siberys became the ring that surrounds the world. Their blood became the dragonshards that make their magical technology possible. It's really more of a creation myth than actual fact. Some dragons see it as a literal truth, Some as an allegory for one thing or another. I'd be happy to teach about the nuances of draconic prophecy, if you so desire.

Have you heard the good news about your Lord and Savior, Siberys?

boomwolf
2014-09-12, 12:24 PM
In D&D, chaos has a clear-cut definition, which is as one element of the alignment system. While it's true that planar dragons are not really about alignment, that doesn't mean you cannot have good or evil dragons. Alignments are an essential part of D&D, aren't they? As for their breath weapon, I could see the good one being a cone of bliss (targets are happy and don't want to fight you) and the evil one being a cone of hopelessness that also heals you a couple hit points (evil is selfish, after all, and benefits from the misfortune of others).


Humm...you bring out some nice points. you are like the great wall of china when it comes to bouncing off ideas.
While originally the chaos affinity is working with the same "confusion breath" mechanic of the existing chaos dragon-who is ironically not directly connected to the alignment, I can defiantly attach it to the alignment, and by that start expanding them to other alignments.
Also attaching them to the "mental state" affinities will be interesting.

So "Chaos" has confusion as his thing (as thematic as chaos gets), and "Good" can easily take over "Love"'s place as the charm breath indeed.

This leaves "Evil", who is defiantly some sort of heavy debuffing, maybe taking on the despair spells (-X to attack,saves,skills). this would mean the shadow (negative levels) will have to go, but that's fine, I found him very hard to keep in check anyway (lvl 1 access to negative levels is nuts to balance, even when its just 1 every few rounds.) and he just existed because of there was one in draconomicon.
I actually like it quite alot, gives off the whole "evil is creeping up" theme as with each breath hit your saves drop even further, making you fall deeper and deeper into despair as your situation constantly worse

And then there is Law. what do I do with him? what sort of mental state can I affix to law? I can give him the charm effect as a "command" rather than "make you friendly", but this leaves a needed breath for "good", and I don't want a buff as I want them to be efficient as stand-alone bosses and such.
Finally there is "dream" who is having a sleep effect, another mind-effecting I have around, but I don't really see him directly matching to any alinement. and I REALLY don't want a "neutrality" alignment dragon.
While I COULD combine them, and sleep effects for law is a bit fitting (you play by my rules) I'm having doubts here. what do you think?



Going back to the incarnum for a bit-it really wont mix properly with the current system.
First, draining incarnum is a problem as most people dont have any. making the breath an odd silver bullet that is usually useless and once in a blue moon completely OP (shutting down a character instantly) rather than a force to always be reckoned with, yet can be counter-measured. granting it comes back to the same "buff rather than stand-alone" scenario. I know it EXISTS but I find the mechanic not compelling.
Not to mention the fact it requires a total rework to the leveling system. honestly, I just rather not, it does not feel right. Dragons (in my book) are their source of magic, having "magic type X dragon" feels wrong, that's why I'm not doing divine either.

Network
2014-09-12, 02:05 PM
So "Chaos" has confusion as his thing (as thematic as chaos gets), and "Good" can easily take over "Love"'s place as the charm breath indeed.
They don't have to overlap. "Love" could give a charm breath which makes people your friend, while "Good" could have a breath weapon that doubles as this trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GettingSmiliesPaintedOnYourSoul).

This leaves "Evil", who is defiantly some sort of heavy debuffing, maybe taking on the despair spells (-X to attack,saves,skills). this would mean the shadow (negative levels) will have to go, but that's fine, I found him very hard to keep in check anyway (lvl 1 access to negative levels is nuts to balance, even when its just 1 every few rounds.) and he just existed because of there was one in draconomicon.
I actually like it quite alot, gives off the whole "evil is creeping up" theme as with each breath hit your saves drop even further, making you fall deeper and deeper into despair as your situation constantly worse
Hopelessness is more easily done by giving morale penalties to everything relevant than by giving negative levels (except maybe on a meta level, but whatever), since it has more to do with a state of being than with loss of experience. Maybe "Shadow" should not get negative levels at all, but something else. I've always felt it was wrong that the shadow dragon exhales negative energy while being a living creature with no connection to the Negative Energy Plane. There are plenty of abilities that are much more "shadowy" than what the shadow dragon got.

And then there is Law. what do I do with him? what sort of mental state can I affix to law? I can give him the charm effect as a "command" rather than "make you friendly", but this leaves a needed breath for "good", and I don't want a buff as I want them to be efficient as stand-alone bosses and such.
Finally there is "dream" who is having a sleep effect, another mind-effecting I have around, but I don't really see him directly matching to any alinement. and I REALLY don't want a "neutrality" alignment dragon.
While I COULD combine them, and sleep effects for law is a bit fitting (you play by my rules) I'm having doubts here. what do you think?
I guess paralysis could work for Law. Keep sleep effect for dream dragons, they don't have to be intertwingled with alignment if you don't want them to (which I don't recommend).

Going back to the incarnum for a bit-it really wont mix properly with the current system.
First, draining incarnum is a problem as most people dont have any. making the breath an odd silver bullet that is usually useless and once in a blue moon completely OP (shutting down a character instantly) rather than a force to always be reckoned with, yet can be counter-measured. granting it comes back to the same "buff rather than stand-alone" scenario. I know it EXISTS but I find the mechanic not compelling.
Not to mention the fact it requires a total rework to the leveling system. honestly, I just rather not, it does not feel right. Dragons (in my book) are their source of magic, having "magic type X dragon" feels wrong, that's why I'm not doing divine either.
No, that's ok, you don't have to do that at all. I'm just saying it's probably doable, Although your last explanation especially strikes the point home. I shall not insist.

r2d2go
2014-09-13, 01:44 AM
If anyone cares, I looked over my planned additions and... I'm definitely not finding the motivation to do the "maybe" stuff, and I might have to cut things. The good-aligned version will take a new spell list, which is really just diving dndtools to look for interesting spells... so I'm thinking of cutting that. On the other hand, maneuvers are interesting so I'm probably doing that :smalltongue: I might reconsider later, but eh.

Network
2014-09-13, 12:51 PM
Finally got the time to post the module list for my Cyber Dragonkin entry. For now I have only done 2 modules (the others being taken from the list of other classes), but I plan on raising that to at least 7, and possibly 14.

If anyone wants to look over the class, they can do it now.

Vaynor
2014-09-13, 09:53 PM
Finally finished with my class! It's called Dragon Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367155-Base-Class-Contest-XXIV-Will-Breed-for-Class&p=18106856#post18106856), but it's actually a lot more general than that. If anyone could look over it and give me their thoughts I'd greatly appreciate it!

ezkajii
2014-09-15, 12:54 AM
Finally finished with my class! It's called Dragon Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367155-Base-Class-Contest-XXIV-Will-Breed-for-Class&p=18106856#post18106856), but it's actually a lot more general than that. If anyone could look over it and give me their thoughts I'd greatly appreciate it!

Sure! The first thing I noticed is pretty minor, which is when you're describing how items count toward the dragon hunter's hoard, you mention items of 'ascetic value' where I'm sure you mean 'aesthetic value'.
Second thing is the Draconic Transformation essentially eliminates the benefit gained by Draconic Might, thus making it an ability that's only valuable for four levels. The exception is the "negate all incoming damage by 5 regardless of type" ability, which, at 20th level, would be the only logical choice to make use of that ability. You should state whether that reduction of 'incoming damage' stacks with the damage reduction or elemental resistances. I could easily see 'incoming damage' being considered that damage that actually bypassed resistances, just as I could see using the original full damage value.
Does Wealth: Double fighter mean 6d4x20 or 12d4x10 (as fighter starting gold is 6d4x10)?
You mention that the hunter can use Survival to track dragons even without the Track feat, but the Draconic Knowledge ability comes in at 1st level, when he also gains the Track feat for free, making this statement redundant.
Now, I'm not very familiar with ToB material, but doing a quick compare with the crusader and warblade, being that this is a full-BAB class with two good saves and a heaping handful of special abilities I would recommend reducing the number of maneuvers known to 14. I also noticed the 'maneuvers readied' column seems to advance erratically, with two levels at 3, five levels at four, then four levels of each 5, 6, and 7, ending of course with 8 at level 20.

Finally, I'm having some trouble seeing the fluff connection between having a hoard of wealth and the wide variety of magical abilities gained through use of the hoard point system. Clearly the hoard mechanic is at the core of the class but I'm just not seeing the thematic link, i guess.

Other than that the abilities make sense, seems like solid class feature progression. It would make an excellent dip, with the two good saves, no loss of BAB continuation, two bonus feats (even if they aren't the most versatile for dippers), and the ability to change your Desert Wind damage type all at 1st level.

Vaynor
2014-09-15, 02:24 AM
Sure! The first thing I noticed is pretty minor, which is when you're describing how items count toward the dragon hunter's hoard, you mention items of 'ascetic value' where I'm sure you mean 'aesthetic value'.

Ah yes, a typo, or possibly my word processor's auto-correct on a typo. Thanks for catching that!


Second thing is the Draconic Transformation essentially eliminates the benefit gained by Draconic Might, thus making it an ability that's only valuable for four levels. The exception is the "negate all incoming damage by 5 regardless of type" ability, which, at 20th level, would be the only logical choice to make use of that ability. You should state whether that reduction of 'incoming damage' stacks with the damage reduction or elemental resistances. I could easily see 'incoming damage' being considered that damage that actually bypassed resistances, just as I could see using the original full damage value.

I'll clear up the misconception. The intention was for it to apply to all types of damage and stack in exchange for the lowered number of damage reduced. The benefit of Draconic Might over Draconic Transformation is that it is usable more than just once per day, but doesn't last as long. So, yes, Draconic Transformation is definitely preferable when you need a major power boost, but Draconic Might allows for more regular and more minor power boosts throughout the day.


Does Wealth: Double fighter mean 6d4x20 or 12d4x10 (as fighter starting gold is 6d4x10)?

This was intended to mean double in the same way that "Double Standard" works with treasure. You would roll twice and add the two results (6d4x10 + 6d4x10).


You mention that the hunter can use Survival to track dragons even without the Track feat, but the Draconic Knowledge ability comes in at 1st level, when he also gains the Track feat for free, making this statement redundant.

I decided to give them Track at the last minute as I thought it fit the flavor and I wanted them to have more abilities that didn't rely on their targets being dragons, but I forgot about that redundancy. I'll fix that.


Now, I'm not very familiar with ToB material, but doing a quick compare with the crusader and warblade, being that this is a full-BAB class with two good saves and a heaping handful of special abilities I would recommend reducing the number of maneuvers known to 14. I also noticed the 'maneuvers readied' column seems to advance erratically, with two levels at 3, five levels at four, then four levels of each 5, 6, and 7, ending of course with 8 at level 20.

The main difference between this class and a warblade is that their maneuvers are more difficult to recover. A warblade can recover all of their maneuvers with a single swift action, which makes up for them not knowing as many or being able to ready as many. The dragon hunter is forced to wait 1d4 rounds (this is based on a dragon's breath weapon ability) in order for their maneuvers to recover. The issue with the irregular progression is I decided on the number of maneuvers/stances I wanted them to know/ready and forced the progression to fit that. I'll probably change the progression to be more natural.


Finally, I'm having some trouble seeing the fluff connection between having a hoard of wealth and the wide variety of magical abilities gained through use of the hoard point system. Clearly the hoard mechanic is at the core of the class but I'm just not seeing the thematic link, i guess.

It was meant to be more that the dragon hunter perceives a dragon's hoard as being his source of power, and through his actions attaches much of his power to his own personal hoard. It's meant to be an almost psychological thing; the dragon hunter bases his worth on the value of his hoard and that greed and pursuit of power fuels his abilities. However, I see now that you mention it that I did not make this clear in the text. I'll clear this up.

Edit: I added more details, so hopefully it's more clear now. I also added penalties for losing the hoard.


Other than that the abilities make sense, seems like solid class feature progression. It would make an excellent dip, with the two good saves, no loss of BAB continuation, two bonus feats (even if they aren't the most versatile for dippers), and the ability to change your Desert Wind damage type all at 1st level.

The Desert Wind damage type change would only apply to maneuvers gained from this class. I did not state this explicitly, so I'll add that.


Do you think it's at a good power level overall? Before I added in hoard points, I was considering energy resistance or bonus feats, but I decided to go with something that allowed for more versatility than just energy resistance. I'm still a bit worried that they might suffer from a lack of bonus feats as a martial class.

Thank you for your help!

Zaydos
2014-09-15, 03:02 AM
The main difference between this class and a warblade is that their maneuvers are more difficult to recover. A warblade can recover all of their maneuvers with a single swift action, which makes up for them not knowing as many or being able to ready as many. The dragon hunter is forced to wait 1d4 rounds (this is based on a dragon's breath weapon ability) in order for their maneuvers to recover. The issue with the irregular progression is I decided on the number of maneuvers/stances I wanted them to know/ready and forced the progression to fit that. I'll probably change the progression to be more natural.

Their recovery isn't worse though. 1d4 rounds means on average they will be recovering a maneuver 0.5 rounds later than a warblade who spends their turn to recover maneuvers (note also a warblade cannot use maneuvers the round they recover maneuvers), and if they're using maneuvers 2 a round they will never run out while a warblade will have to recover maneuvers every 4th round. Their recovery is most comparable to a Crusader's except their is actually going to be better baring shenanigans like Idiot Crusader. With a bit of luck they could passively recover the same maneuver to spam it every round.

If you dropped their maneuvers known/readied down to a warblade's progression they be fairly comparable to warblade with a slight advantage, assuming equal power in maneuvers/disciplines. This is actually a rather noticeable assumption since I only glanced over the homebrew disciplines linked but... well one pretty much only works on breath weapons so without one of those I don't see how it'll be much of a problem and it can mostly be discounted. The other ranged from having effects which were vaguely written (does knocking something up also knock it prone? If yes, why is a 1st level maneuver reliably dealing 3+d6 damage and knocking something prone with a touch attack?) to just plain overpowered (the omnislash being a significantly better version of Time Stands Still which is substantially more powerful than 6 of the other 8 9th level maneuvers and possibly the flat best) and I'd suggest sticking with Tiger Claw over it if you want to emphasize the jumping up to fight things on the wing.

Vaynor
2014-09-15, 03:19 AM
Do you think it would be better if I made it a 1d6 recovery, or simply reduced the maneuver rates? I like having them with access to more maneuvers than a warblade. I do want them to be balanced though, and I'm looking to make them around the same power level as other maneuver classes. Although, I think the main issue is that I did the maneuver portion of the class before anything else and wasn't planning on adding as many special abilities as I did. I like them having a more random recovery method, but not quite as random as a crusader's.

I added the breath weapon discipline because I figured there might be a lot of dragon hunters that would gain a breath weapon, even though I elected to not grant them one through the class. The homebrew discipline fits the flavor I was going for pretty perfectly, but it may be a bit too overpowered as you say. I'll give it a bit more thought and go over the discipline in a bit more detail and try to figure out what to do.

ezkajii
2014-09-16, 01:03 AM
Do you think it's at a good power level overall? Before I added in hoard points, I was considering energy resistance or bonus feats, but I decided to go with something that allowed for more versatility than just energy resistance. I'm still a bit worried that they might suffer from a lack of bonus feats as a martial class.

Yes, I'd say overall a well-balanced class, with a solid martial base and plenty of dragon flavor on top of it, I think it would fit well into any standard adventuring party. With regard to versatility, I do think that perhaps having just one or two more options to spend hoard points on might open it up a little bit more, it feels a bit narrow right now with regard to the hoard point options. But even as is it's plenty enjoyable I would think.

Zaydos
2014-09-16, 01:10 AM
Do you think it would be better if I made it a 1d6 recovery, or simply reduced the maneuver rates? I like having them with access to more maneuvers than a warblade. I do want them to be balanced though, and I'm looking to make them around the same power level as other maneuver classes. Although, I think the main issue is that I did the maneuver portion of the class before anything else and wasn't planning on adding as many special abilities as I did. I like them having a more random recovery method, but not quite as random as a crusader's.

If you're balancing it as worse than warblade's go with 1d4+1. That way once you use a maneuver you're out of it at least as long as a warblade that is dedicated to getting it back. Even then I'd say you might want to reduce the number they get a bit.

Vaynor
2014-09-16, 02:04 AM
Ok, making it 1d4+1 seems like a good option. I'll probably scale their maneuvers back to around 16 from 18, as well.

Any ideas for other uses of hoard points?

ezkajii
2014-09-18, 01:08 AM
Any ideas for other uses of hoard points?

Maybe allow hoard points to fuel additional uses of Track Property, much like is done with Cache of Knowledge later? And then, perhaps a reduced version of Draconic Might that comes online at an earlier level. Or use a hoard point to gain use of any Fighter Bonus Feat for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 class levels, or something.


Note to self: No homebrewing past midnight.

dragonjek
2014-09-26, 03:50 PM
I'm not going to be able to finish mine before the contest ends. I spent too much time on the minutia, and somehow never got around to writing up the dragon embodiments that are the most important part of the class. Two days just isn't enough.

I'll just post it normally when I finish, then. I can put back in some of the stuff I had cut out to save time.

Network
2014-09-27, 08:05 PM
Turns out I managed to make a fully playable entry despite being busy for most of the week. All comments on my cyber dragonkin class are welcome. I won't have the time to make adjustment to the class before the contest is over, but at least I'll know what people think of it.

sirpercival
2014-09-28, 06:29 AM
CRAP when does this end? I have to write fluff... can we push it a couple days? I've been so frickin' busy...

Temotei
2014-09-28, 12:38 PM
CRAP when does this end? I have to write fluff... can we push it a couple days? I've been so frickin' busy...

Yeah, I forgot it ended last night. Derp.

But sure, let's extend it to October 7th. Hoping the peeps who couldn't finish are able to with the extra time.

MrNobody
2014-09-28, 01:37 PM
Extra time to double-triple check grammar and spellig :smallsmile:

What about next contest's subject? It will be dungeons as it was said while discussing for the current one or there are other ideas to consider?

Zaydos
2014-09-28, 01:46 PM
Other possibilities:
Reality Warping (might have 2 half finished classes that fall under this)
Other Table Top Games (might have 1 half finished class that falls under this)
Video Games
Codes (Honor? Cryptography? This isn't specified on purpose isn't it?)
Planes
Gods
Fiends
I could list more ideas if pressed.

MrNobody
2014-09-28, 03:25 PM
Wow, cool! Can't wait to see what it will be! I have a nice idea for the Dungeon thing and also one for the tabletop games, reality warping. .. nothing written yet, but living in my head!

dragonjek
2014-09-28, 04:10 PM
Contest ideas...

How about something along the lines of "the normal, done abnormally?"
Like making a fire mage who makes fire sentient and converses with it to learn the elemental wisdom of flames, or a warrior who cuts concepts rather than flesh. A thief who steals words, a plant specialist growing a symbiotic tree in his own torso, a furious angry man who channels his anger into inanimate objects to make them hop up and go kill things, a monk who meditated for so long their limbs atrophied and they have to float around by using enlightenment in some interesting explained way.
Stuff like that.

Or maybe "something boring, done awesomely?"
A potter so devoted to his craft it becomes supernatural and his pots begin to hold things from different planes of existence, a janitor who scrubs away the stain of evil, a con artist who scams reality into doing what he wants it to, a chef with magic food, a politician who can literally lie things into existence, a lawyer specializing in deals with fiends, a farmer who can command plants and animals to do his bidding and who can smite people with a hoe, a magic-focused spellcaster who never learns anything in his entire class progression of higher level than cantrips, a cheesemaker who shapes a piece of the moon for his powers, or an innkeeper who can summon a magical, armed, defended inn from which he can attack people.

Or how about "the nonsensical or oxymoronic?"
A priest of athiesm. A godling of atheism. A conjuror who summons himself (not from the future, past, or alternative timeline, but summons the actual him who is casting the summoning spell), or an intelligent idiot who psionically forces his stupidity onto other people. A class that creates and wields Happy Fun Balls (http://www.dirtybutton.com/videos/780-happy-fun-ball/), a class that uses fire to freeze you, someone who can travel anywhere by becoming perfectly still for one instant, someone who becomes 2-dimensional, or a base class that makes flower petals explosive? A Stormtrooper who actually hits things?

Maybe a theme of cooperation?
Either the class is based on cooperating with others, everyone makes two classes that are suppose to have synchronicity with one another, or we are supposed to work with someone to create a single class (or make two classes separately, designed to work together).

Invertebrates.

Beholders.

A class that is a student.

Books, but cannot be a spellcaster.

A class wielding magic, but not casting spells.

A class based on a single feat or chain of feats, and then doing something absolutely incredible with it to stretch it way beyond what it was originally meant to do.

A theme of "story theme."

A tautological theme that is tautological.

The assholish things people who play videogames online do.

A videogame made before the turn of the millennium.

A theme of "losing your humanity".

A class based off the least wanted monsters in the Monster Manuals.

Xhosant
2014-09-28, 04:27 PM
Books, but cannot be a spellcaster.


Maka chop?

Network
2014-09-29, 06:05 PM
A class based on a single feat or chain of feats, and then doing something absolutely incredible with it to stretch it way beyond what it was originally meant to do.
Such a class is either a fighter fix, either the fighter class itself with a restructuration of the feat tree. Either way, it wouldn't make for an original contest.

A theme of "losing your humanity".
A contest for WoD-inspired classes? Not sure I'd like it, D&D and WoD have very different concepts of morality. I'm not sure extraplanar outsiders have anything similar to an humanity, for example.

malonkey1
2014-09-29, 07:01 PM
A contest for WoD-inspired classes? Not sure I'd like it, D&D and WoD have very different concepts of morality. I'm not sure extraplanar outsiders have anything similar to an humanity, for example.

I'm game for that idea. It might give people cause to use less-used existing rules, like the Taint rules.

Zaydos
2014-09-29, 07:22 PM
I'm game for that idea. It might give people cause to use less-used existing rules, like the Taint rules.

Taint rules are annoying to use, however, due to the no save daze if you take more depravity than your Wis modifier from a single source (you do get a save, daze is the success, stun on failure) and a slightly less crippling effect with corruption.

dragonjek
2014-09-29, 10:38 PM
Such a class is either a fighter fix, either the fighter class itself with a restructuration of the feat tree. Either way, it wouldn't make for an original contest.

I think the ability to use Power Attack to damage someone's soul, use Run to cross planes, literally destroying the concept of sound within a limited area with a Silent Spell, using the Survivalist feat to fend off death when at -100 hp, or instantly covering all solid surfaces in an area with runes as you spontaneously coat every surface with scroll-runes to cast ten spells at the same time would be an entirely different set of concepts than a fighter fix.

Two-Weapon Fighting that allowed you to actually make your weapons go themselves fight through the air, Skill Focus (Craft (blacksmithing)) to make a swift action to forge a sword, using the Dodge feat to avoid getting hit by the rain, making a tornado with Whirlwind Attack, shooting an arrow across the planet with Far Shot to hit your enemy in the back of the head, Diehard to stay alive after your head's been cleaved off with a vorpal weapon, etc.

Using Create Water to make water inside someone's body, using Animate Rope and making it infinitely extend until it grapples everyone in the worm, casting Animate Dead on a living person's dead cells and the food they ate, using Haste on someone's heart but not the rest of them, shoot someone with Call Lightning to give them superpowers, use Mage Hand to choke people, turn Ray of Frost into Yamato Cannon of Frost, using Stone Shape to turn stone into a gas for the duration of the spell, using Summon Monster to pull someone in the combat to your location (but inside-out), using Light to create AI light-constructs that can scout or shoot laser beams for you, using Feather Fall to launch a storm of razor-sharp metal feathers at someone, etc.

None of this is remotely something a fighter fix would do, nor are they appropriate to feat trees.
(note that I just threw those ideas out there without thought to balance or sanity. I have no intention of actually doing most of these).


A contest for WoD-inspired classes? Not sure I'd like it, D&D and WoD have very different concepts of morality. I'm not sure extraplanar outsiders have anything similar to an humanity, for example.
It wasn't a WoD reference, but such a class would fit the theme, yeah. It also works on a more literal scale--like the some zombie class, the Ozodrin, or the Alienist. That aside, watching another character descend into madness (or viewing an NPC to the same) is something that can happen in any game, not just WoD.

Beelzebub1111
2014-09-30, 01:15 PM
A contest for WoD-inspired classes? Not sure I'd like it, D&D and WoD have very different concepts of morality. I'm not sure extraplanar outsiders have anything similar to an humanity, for example.
Not to be a broken record, but that would fit into a "Tabletop Games" category. Hint Hint.

Xhosant
2014-09-30, 01:17 PM
A theme of "losing your humanity".

Dark Souls?

Temotei
2014-10-08, 12:05 PM
Hey, guys, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375921-Base-Class-Challenge-XXIV-Voting-Thread&p=18227305) we are. Sorry for the short delay; I have an exam today and I forgot to post.

Zaydos
2014-10-08, 12:07 PM
Hey, guys, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375921-Base-Class-Challenge-XXIV-Voting-Thread&p=18227305) we are. Sorry for the short delay; I have an exam today and I forgot to post.

Seeing that table I really went overboard.

Temotei
2014-10-08, 12:09 PM
Seeing that table I really went overboard.

My phalanges are weeping.

Carl
2014-10-08, 02:22 PM
Sorry about the class skills Temotei i got busy IRL and stopped checking this thread. If i do anything like that in future, shoot me a PM a week or so before contest finish, i cna throw an edit in there if you want with a really short list if you really want.

Sorry :smallfrown:.

sirpercival
2014-10-08, 03:59 PM
even with an extra week i didn't have time to do the fluff... :smalleek:

Temotei
2014-10-08, 08:59 PM
Sorry about the class skills Temotei i got busy IRL and stopped checking this thread. If i do anything like that in future, shoot me a PM a week or so before contest finish, i cna throw an edit in there if you want with a really short list if you really want.

Sorry :smallfrown:.

Hey, man, it's no trouble. I consider it finished because class skills are possibly the easiest part of making a class and it's pretty easy to guess what they would be.


even with an extra week i didn't have time to do the fluff... :smalleek:

Yeeaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Yeah.

Pls sirp

Carl
2014-10-09, 02:55 PM
Cheers, tbh i find class skills the hardest part, it's why i hadn't done them yet. then again me and the skills system don;t get along anyway :smalltongue:.

Temotei
2014-10-11, 04:46 PM
Cheers, tbh i find class skills the hardest part, it's why i hadn't done them yet. then again me and the skills system don;t get along anyway :smalltongue:.

I'd assume 4 + Int skill points, maybe 2 + Int if you're into that.

Obviously Concentration, Craft, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Profession, Spellcraft.

Probably Heal, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Spot.

Maybe Bluff, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perform, Sense Motive, Use Magic Device.

Carl
2014-10-11, 05:22 PM
Yeah that sound like a pretty good list tbh. I'm just poor at translating fluff into skill's, tend to over or under do it :smallbiggrin:.

Temotei
2014-10-11, 05:33 PM
Yeah that sound like a pretty good list tbh. I'm just poor at translating fluff into skill's, tend to over or under do it :smallbiggrin:.

Yeah, that took me a good minute or two to type up. Skills are easy for me. :smalltongue:

Carl
2014-10-11, 06:10 PM
hehe, yeah, TBH i think half my issue comes from how detailed i like to get with fluff, have enough detail and you can justify almost anything. It thus becomes hard to separate the important bits for skill decisions from the mass.

Temotei
2014-10-25, 01:41 PM
Zaydos' votes have been tallied and the winners determined.

In 1st Place: Dragonsoul Acolyte, by Zaydos!

In 2nd Place: Draconic Warlord, by Dire_Stirge!

And in 3rd Place: Dragon Hunter, by Vaynor!


During this contest's voting period, I got a message pertaining to voting rules. It was suggested that we could implement something similar to how The Iron Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379011-The-Iron-Mage-Voting-Thread) contest's voting works: voting is mandatory for participants' entries to qualify for winning.

What does everyone think? I know it puts even more of a strain on people that do so much work on their classes, but it also gets more votes in and sort of deals with the whole "can't vote for self" rule.

Zaydos
2014-10-25, 02:05 PM
I'd been meaning to suggest that myself, or that if you vote your class gets 3 points so that voting never hurts you, for a few contests just felt weird doing it, so I'd definitely second the motion.

Vaynor
2014-10-25, 02:10 PM
Congratulations Zaydos! The amount of work you put into your class was commendable. I will, however, state for the record that it is unfair that this contest was about dragons since you so clearly are obsessed with them. I would like to request that the next contest be entirely dragon-free in order to level the playing field. :smalltongue:

On a more serious note, we had a lot of great entries this round. I wish I had had time to read them all.

I would agree with the voting rules change.

Temotei
2014-10-25, 09:48 PM
Alright, well, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379797-Base-Class-Contest-XXV-Dungeon-Plunge-In)'s the new contest thread.

Please don't kill me for that pun.

MrNobody
2014-10-26, 03:27 PM
All hail Zaydos the Dragonbrewer!!!

I'm ok with the new voting rule: i couldn't manage to vote this time (a mix of IRL commitments and personal forgetfulness :smallfrown:) but i'll try to be more observant in the future!

For the new dungeon-theme contest i'm trying to develop a "trapcaster", since traps are an iconic presence in dungeon: it will be a class able to create traps as spell-like ability conjuring them from an homebrewed demiplane (it will also be posted).
I hope i'll manage to do everything and to do it well!

Temotei
2014-10-26, 09:42 PM
I'm ok with the new voting rule

Sweet.


i couldn't manage to vote this time (a mix of IRL commitments and personal forgetfulness :smallfrown:) but i'll try to be more observant in the future!

Don't sweat it; I forget things like that all the time.


For the new dungeon-theme contest i'm trying to develop a "trapcaster", since traps are an iconic presence in dungeon: it will be a class able to create traps as spell-like ability conjuring them from an homebrewed demiplane (it will also be posted).
I hope i'll manage to do everything and to do it well!

Sounds cool, dawg. Have fun with it. :smallsmile:

Beelzebub1111
2014-10-27, 12:25 PM
New rule is good. I just can't think of anything for this new contest. Maybe I'll come up with something.