What's Joss Whedon's best work?

[Pester]

Now, at this point, Joss Whedon might as well be called the King of Cult, because so much of his work found a small, but very rabid audience. The question is- who's right? Those who say that Firefly was the zenith of his talent, or that only the Buffyverse can be the One True Doctrine? In this thread, we can find the final answer in the purest form possible- the poll.

[Wippit Guud]

Firefly was it. Overlooking the sci-fi aspect of it, it was real. Real in that it was gritty, had no special powers, wasn't glitzed up for a movie audience. Serenity wasn't clean, was falling apart... everthing you'd expect for the people they were. They crew might've done noble tasks, but were far from noble themselves.

Shows like Desperate Housewives and Scrubs are hollow nothings, and they cancel Firefly. Does that seem right to you?

[MReav]

Buffy was great.. until the sixth season.

Now, "To Buffy Season Six" is part of my personal lexicon. It is like the extreme version of "Jump the Shark"

Angel turned to crap at Jasmine (though the puppet episode was gold)

Firefly was great, but Serenity had giant gaping plot holes (I argue that something like the Pax should have revealed its problems in the test stages. The most common counterargument I get is that the Reavers would have come far too rarely in the test phases. My counter-counterargument is that they shouldn't be using stuff that kills 99.9% of everyone it comes into contact with).

The man makes great work, but he loses steam quite spectacularly (and can't write dialgoue for crap).

[ray53208]

firefly was, iirc, the culmination of a life's work. my understanding is that he poured his heart and soul into it. it shows. i watch the series several time a year and it never gets old.

[averagejoe]

Actually, he is one of the only sci fi guys not to have sound in space. He got a lot else wrong, but still.

Yeah, guess which one I chose. (I'll give you a hint: look to the left.)

[Amotis]

Firefly.

But I really respect the guy, he has ideals and he's not afraid to speak them in his work.

He also did a The Office episode. You might of figured out which one it was.

[Bears With Lasers]

Buffy.

Season Six had its problems (the villain is... minimum wage? It's okay for Buffy to beat spike half to death? No one cares that Xander, via the singing demon, killed people?), but it also had lots of awesome--Once More, With Feeling? The hilarious Tabula Rasa? Normal Again? Grave?

Overall, Buffy was awesome.

[ZombieRockStar]

I really shouldn't pass judgement until Wonder Woman comes out.

EDIT: Apparently he dropped out of the project. That just makes me very sad.


I haven't really watched Angel, so that doesn't come into this. Considering how much I dislike the character of Angel, though,. I think I can say I wouldn't appreciate it.

Firefly had infinitely more potential, but Buffy had the chance to explore it's potential...I won't argue about where Buffy's ups and downs were, but I think the fifth season clinches it for me. Buffy.

[Bears With Lasers]

Um... Joss isn't writing Wonder Woman anymore. "Creative differences" and all that.

[Pester]

He's not? Damn. There goes my inclination to get my first exposure to that heroine...

But does anyone know whether Linda Carter will get a cameo? As far as I know, all she's done lately is voice acting in Morrowind and Oblivion.

[sethdarkwater]

All I have to say is I love both (buffy,firefly) and its a shame that we had to see firefly go byebye. But Ive always found buffys characters to be more lovable.

[ZombieRockStar]

Um... Joss isn't writing Wonder Woman anymore. "Creative differences" and all that.

Yeah...just found out...damn it. That would've been awesome.

Oh well...at least we know he's not the kind to compromise integrity for the sake of the studio.

[Ditto]

Firefly is amazing, and I wish we would have seen more of it. I love that he said the plot of Serenity was supposed to be the season finale of, oh, season three. That guy plans SO freaking far ahead... (Faith counting down to 730, Vampire Willow "I think I'm kinda gay...").

Angel, I think, got *better* after Jasmine. Season Five is the only one I'd consider buying as a complete piece. Yes, Nina was lame and that whole Black Thorn thing needed more than two episodes for a build-up, but still. On the whole, though, Angel as a series was very uneven.

Buffy, however, is clearly the winner. I really don't think Firefly, for all its brilliance, has enough behind it to trump Buffy due to its brevity. Speaking of 'real'? Buffy is *exactly* like life, except that the girl goes and stakes things now and again. I think it's how I'd react most of the time if someone said, "Vampires are real. A lot of them live in Sunnydale. Willow will fill you in." Moving on. "Actually, it explains a *lot*." If you want to see some real life, you look at "The Body." It's about as real a depiction the effects of death as you'll see around. Think he sucks at dialogue? Well, fine, he'll give you "Hush." Will that calm you down? No dialogue. People have written essays about how *good* he is with dialogue, and ramble on pretentiously about how exciting it is that they create their own teenage words and idioms. I'll admit I rather enjoy making up words by putting others together and saying, "What's the it?" when I see something is on someone's mind.

::ramble ramble:: Buffy wins.

[averagejoe]

I find it kind of disturbing that, taking into account both series, Harmony is the longest running character from Buffy excepting Angel.

[musicnerd]

director of Business School (The Office Season three)

[AmoDman]

My brain hurts when I think too much about Buffy. It just plain hurts. I hate that girl. Straight up hate her. The side characters were interesting, but I couldn't stand that whiny little bitch. Angel, excepting the first season (which still had a few poignant episodes) was fantastic, through and through. They explored every single element of what it was to be a hero, and Angel has to be my favorite fictional character ever.

Nothing ever went right in Angel. When you really sit down and watch it through, you realize a LOT of bad happened to him and his crew. But still, they always pulled through, they worked through their problems in the end, and Angel kept fighting because he's Angel. The show is not about teens and their whiny little problems. It's about being an adult, what's wrong with the world, why we even try when there's so little that's right. Angel summing it up for his messed up son -

Angel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_%28vampire%29): "What you did to me… was unbelievable, Connor. But then, I got stuck in a hell dimension by my girlfriend one time for a hundred years, so three months under the ocean actually gave me perspective. Kind of a M. C. Esher perspective — but I did get time to think. About us, about the world. Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be. You're not a part of that yet. I hope you will be. I love you, Connor. Now get out of my house."

Firefly was pretty awesome too...but it leaves an empty taste when it ends so quickly :smallconfused:. Plus, Angel has Angel.

p.s. I loved it when Angel finally told the Buffy bitch where she could put it after she whined and complained about his helping Faith and completely left field tries to make him feel bad in season 1 -

Angel: Buffy, this wasn't about you. This was about saving somebody's soul. That's what I do here and you're not a part of it. Buffy: I have someone in my life now, that I love. It's not what you and I had, it's very new. You know what makes it new? I trust him, I know him. Angel: Well, that's great, that's nice, you moved on, I can't. You found someone new, I'm not allowed to, remember? I see you again, it cuts me up inside, and the person I share with is me. You don't know me anymore. So don't come down here with your great new life and expect me to do things your way. Go home.

[RMS Oceanic]

I like Serenity, but I have a soft spot for Toy Story, for which he was a screenwriter.

[Timberwolf]

Firefly + Serenity were the best for me.

[Sereno]

FIREFLY!!

Not only was it good, *real* sci-fi (not just about humanoid aliens and special effects) but the stories and characters were excellent. He did a great job of creating the crew; both in concept and in casting. I also found the 'Verse to be a pretty clever concept....

I really loved the (near) silent space scenes, and the fabulous "camera work" the CG artists did with them. Firefly was the first place, I think, that I ever saw CG like that; where it *looked* like it was shot with the same style of cameras as the rest of the show.

I was very pleased to see that BSG borrowed from Joss' ideas, it makes it look more "real."

[adanedhel9]

Firefly was great, but Serenity had giant gaping plot holes (I argue that something like the Pax should have revealed its problems in the test stages. The most common counterargument I get is that the Reavers would have come far too rarely in the test phases. My counter-counterargument is that they shouldn't be using stuff that kills 99.9% of everyone it comes into contact with).

My understanding was that death/insanity didn't show up until after long-term exposure. The Alliance was impatient and started the Miranda colony before any of the original test subjects got that far. Or, Miranda was the long-term test.


I was very pleased to see that BSG borrowed from Joss' ideas, it makes it look more "real."

It's actually the same CG company for both. There's an early scene in the BSG miniseries that shows Serenity flying over Caprica.

I haven't seen any Angel, so I can't vote for that. I liked what I've seen of Buffy, but for sure I've probably only seen half the episodes. I loved Firefly/Serenity, but there's not enough of it to really say it's his best work. So I'm not voting.

[Joosbawx]

Firefly.

Mostly for the reason that it was his idea originally, and not some half-baked Luke Perry vehicle, or its spin-off. Now, don't get me wrong, I loved Buffy, and I liked Angel. The dialog was...witty in some places and made me laugh, and I thought the story arcs were pretty good. Besides...Alison Hannigan... Mmmmmmmmmmmm. Plus there was the musical episode, and I loved that and still listen to it to this day. In fact....

((They got...the mustard...Oooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuut! They got the mustard ooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut!!!))

The great thing about Firefly was its originality...mostly. It had some new ideas and I liked the space cowboy/settler thing, too. Oops...sorry all you Cowboy BeBop fans, I didn't mean to take 'Space Cowboy' out of context. It was gritty, and had a real feel to it. Blah blah blah..all things everyone else has said before. I also loved the vernacular, and it only added to the originality of the universe.

Also...if you are a Buffy fan pick up the Prey graphic novel. You won't regret it. It's great for a fan.

And, as for Linda Carter, she did have a role in...and I'm so very, very ashamed for knowing this...The Dukes of Hazzard. Sigh. Now you know my secret shame.

[BlueWizard]

Firefly! Of course!

[pestilenceawaits]

I like them all but Angel was my favorite especially the last season spike and angel as a team was freaking awesome.

[Sereno]

Or, Miranda was the long-term test.

I got that impression, as well.


It's actually the same CG company for both. There's an early scene in the BSG miniseries that shows Serenity flying over Caprica.

Ahhh, that explains it; they do wonderful work!

Do you know which episode contains the Serenity fly-by?

[Oeryn]

It's the very first part of the mini-series. When the future president is getting her cancer diagnosis, in the first few minutes. It pans down from a shot of the sky, and you can see Serenity pretty clearly.

[beholder]

sorry, whats BSG?
btw firefly. by far. serenity got too epic for me. there was too much "save the whole universe feel" i love firefly and detest fox for cancelling it. buffy was good, season six was bad, but a great comeback for season seven. i really found angle pretty lacklustre. i thought they couldnt really decide what angel had to be.dark and broody, or funny and witty. they tried for both and got neither. i also dislike angel for cheapening spike's death.yeah there are some great bits, but it made his whole sacrifice pointless. also the whole thing with fred was just weird. but i loved the last episode of angel and the uncertainty as to what happens. im sure ssomewhere out there theyve ruined that also by saying everyone survives. but i prefer the uncertainty. ending rant

[MReav]

My understanding was that death/insanity didn't show up until after long-term exposure. The Alliance was impatient and started the Miranda colony before any of the original test subjects got that far. Or, Miranda was the long-term test.

It still fails the plausibility litmus test for me. You're experimenting with an unknown material, you don't do that crap unless you're a poorly written faceless B-Movie villain. Furthermore, if they're unethical enough to experiment on a planetary scale on a population, why didn't they just send a fleet to cover up their misdeeds by nuking the planet from orbit? Claim a war broke out.

[Jack Squat]

It still fails the plausibility litmus test for me. You're experimenting with an unknown material, you don't do that crap unless you're a poorly written faceless B-Movie villain. Furthermore, if they're unethical enough to experiment on a planetary scale on a population, why didn't they just send a fleet to cover up their misdeeds by nuking the planet from orbit? Claim a war broke out.

chances are a message didn't get sent out in time to do that or the Alliance didn't see the reavers as capable of leaving the planet. More powerful entities always underestimate their adversaries.

[Dragor]

sorry, whats BSG?

Battlestar Galactica, the latest remade series, not the old (really rubbish) series. Watch it. It's brilliant.

On topic, though, Firefly clinches it for me, if not only for the hilarious one-liners and the lovable characters. I never get tired of it... it's simply a joy to watch. There's not a bad apple in sight; it's all done right.

Buffy didn't do it for me. She simply wasn't as good as the other characters; I prefer Xander and Willow to Buffy herself; they can kick ass if they need to (or if they have to, in Xander's case) but they aren't whining and moaning most of the time.

Angel.... I can't judge on Angel as I haven't watched much of it. So, on that note, Firefly.

[Beleriphon]

Do you know which episode contains the Serenity fly-by?

Not a specific episode, its in the first part of the four hour miniseries that preceded the show. You'd need to get a copy of the first season DVD set to find it these days.

[Logic]

Astonishing X-men tied with Firefly.

[MReav]

Not a specific episode, its in the first part of the four hour miniseries that preceded the show. You'd need to get a copy of the first season DVD set to find it these days.

I hear they even included the original Enterprise too in the fleet.

[Jerthanis]

Astonishing X-men tied with Firefly.

I'd actually specifically vote against Astonishing X-men for his greatest work. Seriously, claiming that Wolverine was the love of Jean Grey's life when Wolverine was a footnote in pretty much every iteration of Jean Grey coming back to life, and in Age of Apocalypse, to my knowledge the only time the two of them were actually together, she dumped him because she didn't love him.

Maybe Wolverine-mania is just a pet peeve of mine, but the entire mindraping of Cyclops was just a bunch of shallow interpretations of his character in my mind. Then there's the fact that each of the X-men seem to have the magical ability to conjure handguns, which is strange because they even say "X-men don't shoot people!" (and why do they have handguns in their mansion if they don't shoot anyone?) and there is no reason for a bullet to disperse psychic energy. Furthermore, his tongue-in-cheek humor about comic book conventions "Jean Grey is dead," "Yeah, that'll last." and "We should think about rebuilding the Mansion out of cardboard, it'd be cheaper to replace that way." were cute at first, but eventually got tiresome.

And yet, with all these complaints I enjoy reading Astonishing more than any other single X-men title being published right now, but I still wouldn't call it Whedon's best work.

Anyway, I voted for Serenity for the same reason I'm sure many voted for Firefly instead. It was Firefly, but bigger, more epic, and with more intensity.

[Ditto]

Firefly.

Mostly for the reason that it was his idea originally, and not some half-baked Luke Perry vehicle, or its spin-off.
Actually, the movie *was* his idea originally and looked a lot like the series when it first went through the pipes. Then the Kuzui brothers said, "This is awesome! Now, let's movie-fy it!" and it went all vehicular. I think the movie is the height of lame, and doesn't even enter into this discussion.

I liked how he's responsible for the "You know what happens when a toad is hit by lightning?" line in X-Men

I wonder how many people who vote for Firefly and diss Buffy have seen a good amount of Buffy... there's 144 episodes to take in, and 15 Fireflys +Serenity (which I imagine most everyone here has seen). It's a lot easier to say Firefly is the best because you're most familiar with it... I really think Buffy is Whedon's magnum opus.

[ray53208]

i love all the various series o' the jossverse. firefly is just my favorite.

[Midnight Son]

Buffy was awesome, but should have ended the second time she died. It sucked hard after that. Angel was good, but had what I call TVADD. It had troubles keeping it's attention on one plot long enough to finish it or couldn't figure out a way to finish it, so made a way to erase it. If Firefly had been allowed to continue, I'm sure we all would not be so fired up about how great it was because there would eventually have been a bad episode. Since it wasn't and there aren't any, it's the best show ever.

[Fat Daddy]

I must say that I'm a fan off all his work. I voted firefly though because, it's just that good. You forgot some of his work, but for the sake of the poll, I'll forgive you. :smallamused:

Oh, and @ ditto. I have the entire Buffy, Angel and Firefly series on DVD as well as Serenity, X-men and the Buffy movie. So I can say that in my informed opinion, Firefly was the best. :smallsmile:

[Lord of the Helms]

Firefly, hands down. I've watched every episode at least half a dozen times and each one is still very good when I watch it yet again. The characters, the humor, the drama, the plot, everything.

Serenity - see, the problem is that it was all larger-than-life, and the appeal of Firefly was precisely its down-to-earth (well, down-to-spaceship) character. There was something brilliant about 9 ordinary people surviving in their own little world, rather than affecting all mankind.

Also, I didn't like Whedon's turning River into God. And it had sound in space :(

I could never get into Buffy. Too teenagery for me.

Angel seemed decent from what I saw, but I've never really been caught by it for any longer time.


Actually, he is one of the only sci fi guys not to have sound in space. He got a lot else wrong, but still.

Yeah, guess which one I chose. (I'll give you a hint: look to the left.)

He was really inconsistent with inertia. I mean sometimes, it was there (objects in space, or the whole idea of the fusion blast propelling serenity to full speed) and sometimes it was magically gone (out of gas, several times).

Also, I need a firefly avatar. Is badger taken yet?

[ubersquid]

firefly...


Why are we still talking about this?

[averagejoe]

He was really inconsistent with inertia. I mean sometimes, it was there (objects in space, or the whole idea of the fusion blast propelling serenity to full speed) and sometimes it was magically gone (out of gas, several times).

Also, I need a firefly avatar. Is badger taken yet?

Plus there was that whole issue he had with gravity in episode one. Although, I forgot all about that what with the, "We will call it... this land. I call it your grave! Ahhh, curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal."

Nice to see someone from the old homsead.

[MReav]

I wonder how many people who vote for Firefly and diss Buffy have seen a good amount of Buffy... there's 144 episodes to take in, and 15 Fireflys +Serenity (which I imagine most everyone here has seen). It's a lot easier to say Firefly is the best because you're most familiar with it... I really think Buffy is Whedon's magnum opus.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I've seen all of Buffy (except the complete Season 6 Burger Episode). I honestly find that Buffy really doesn't age well. I look back on episodes and wonder "why did I like this show?"

Firefly was taken off the air before it could jump the shark or Buffy Season Six.

[Ditto]

@Fat Daddy: Fair enough. :smallwink:

@Midnight Son: Precisely. If all we had from Buffy was Season 3, it would win. Absolutely, without question. Seasons 2 and 5 could stand alone almost as well, but you have things like Ted and Bad Eggs in S2, and S5 took a while to get going. Even those of the 'Joss should write every episode!' camp turn up a Beer Bad or Ted now and again. :smallsmile: Still... The Body, Once More With Feeling, What's My Line, Earshot, Graduation Day, Hush, Fool For Love, Selfless, The Gift. These give any episode of Firefly a run for their money.

@amodman: Angel was very tragic hero, very noble indeed. I enjoy that Connor speech, and the one he has when he realizes life is hell, and the one where he tells Lindsay evil exists only to be fought, not to be defeated... But he's so freaking emo! Spike has him spot-on whenever he starts heckling him about being all 'I-have-a-heavy-soul-boo-hoo'-y. :smallamused: Spike should have stayed dead, IMO, (as should Angel!) but if he had to come back I was pretty pleased with the result - and it's another reason I like S5 best as a whole. Not that I didn't like both characters, but plotwise it was much better where they were supposed to end. Stupid rabid fanbase... :smallbiggrin:

My least favorite FF episodes were probably Heart of Gold and The Message. I kid you not, *every* single stripper in my friends' stories has been working her way through med school. If I may say so, bull. I understand they're no longer companions and they're being abused by the male chauvinist government - but they're still whores. Whore with a heart of gold is old. Also, Inara-Mal shippers got way too much fun out of this.

[AmoDman]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, IMO Firefly exemplified more quality in it's first half a season than all of Buffy put together. If all shows were held to the quality standard of Firefly's first season, even my favorite Angel wouldn't ever have been given a chance to hit its stride (considering it's somewhat up and down first season).

[Midnight Son]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, IMO Firefly exemplified more quality in it's first half a season than all of Buffy put together. If all shows were held to the quality standard of Firefly's first season, even my favorite Angel wouldn't ever have been given a chance to hit its stride (considering it's somewhat up and down first season).I totally agree. There wasn't a bad episode the entire run. some were better than others, but none were even close to mediocre, much less bad. It's my favorite show ever, followed closely by Veronica Mars. Buffy is definitely in my top 5. Angel doesn't make my top ten, though I enjoyed it. Funny thing. I couldn't stand Gina Torres' character or acting in Angel, but I love her in Firefly. Nathan was part of what I hated about Buffy at the end there, but he's beyond awesome in Firefly. Right cast! Right roles! Right plot! Right time! Wrong network!

[Flak_Razorwill]

To me, his stuff just doesn't gel. Buffy was never really appealing to me, save for that musical episode.

And though Firefly was interesting, having seen the whole series, I disliked something about it. It's hard to describe. I just felt like I was watching a rehash of Outlaw Star and other "frontier sci-fi" shows from various sources. I liked Alan Tudyk, but mainly because he was in Dodgeball. I saw the pilot premier when it first came out, and it didn't interest me. People tell me that was because Fox messed it up do to corporate idiocy, so I sat down and watched the rest (my friends were happy to help). I think it's the intense fanbase that drives me off. All of my friends wouldn't stop talking about it and went to see early showings and midnight premiers. When it was shown just about every day in the student Union, I had enough. I'll watch it when it comes on, but the moment I spot Original Trek, I'm gone.

*Sigh*

And no, I didn't like Enterprise all that much, but I liked (emphasis on liked) New Galactica.

Starbuck?

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

I voted for BtVS, but this is really for that whole universe, both BtVS and Angel. It ran synchronus with my post-adolescent stage; and was something that I could find myself identifying with. The characters were deep, well thought out, and quite well written. It was the first series that I actually cared for the characters. I'll be the first to admit that I still bawl like a baby at the end of "I Will Remember You" after 7-8 years (Gods, has it been that long??).

I like how the creator of this poll did not include the original BtVS movie. Thank you!! I don't even want to start that debate.

[Angela]

I like how the creator of this poll did not include the original BtVS movie. Thank you!! I don't even want to start that debate.

There is no such thing as a BtVS movie... :smallfurious:

I'm currently working my way through Buffy (we're mid-S4 at the moment), and the plan after that is to tackle Angel as well... that said, I watch Firefly all the way through every couple of months.. Something about it just sits right for some reason...

[Logic]

There is no such thing as a BtVS movie... :smallfurious:
Actually there is a Buffy The Vampire Slayer movie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer_%28film%29) also written by Whedon.

[Archonic Energy]

Actually there is a Buffy The Vampire Slayer movie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer_%28film%29) also written by Whedon.
i think you are misunderstanding her point...
THERE IS NO BUFFY MOVIE
there may be a movie where the main character is call Buffy... and she may slay vampires... but (and let me say this again to re-itterate my point)... THERE IS NO BUFFY MOVIE

[MReav]

I understand that Joss disowned it, largely because he wasn't allowed to make it his way (that I can agree with).

[WarriorTribble]

I'd go with Firefly. It died before Whedon could make it horrible.

[Midnight Son]

Movies that never happened:
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Superman IV
Rocky V
Star wars Eps I-III - George realized it would just be a lame attempt at cashing in (more) on a franchise and that he sucks at dialogue and he couldn't find a good actor for Anakin and he had no idea how to convincingly make Anakin fall, so he decided not to do it.

There are others...

[Chunklets]

In the end, I had to go with Buffy on this one, although to be honest, for me it was a toss-up between that and Angel. I have really enjoyed the very little I've seen of Firefly, but not enough to put it above the other two.

[smellie_hippie]

Firefly. :smallamused:

[Strengfellow]

Random thought fueled by beer.

What alignment are the main characters in all his show's

most are CG or NG I think

[Ditto]

There are whole threads on that topic... but flavorwise, yeah, he's pretty NG punctuated with CG leaders on the whole.

[ray53208]

Random thought fueled by beer.

What alignment are the main characters in all his show's

most are CG or NG I think

now THAT is an interesting thought! im quite suprised i have thought of it before...

i might have to start a new thread for this little tangent though.

im not sure alignments are written in stone in the jossverse. they may not be dynamic enough to fully convey the complexity of a character.

id have to agree that it swings between NG and CG.

[Ditto]

Okay, I caved. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2169761#post2169761)

[Khantalas]

He he... I didn't watch Firefly. Never had the chance.

I picked Angel, because it could pull off the vampire with a soul thing pretty well for three seasons.

[Dariendel]

I'd say Buffy, although I do not totally like the vampiric lore used. Haven't had the chance to watch Firefly and I slept through Serenity.

[Ditto]

Slept through Serenity? What were you on? It must have been pretty strong... Buffy's vampire logic wasn't for everyone, but it was detailed and mostly consistent. You have to give them points for that. :smallsmile:

Three seasons of Angel being credible? I think that was Buffy. :smallbiggrin:

[ADZAELL]

Buffy, closely followed by Buffy and Buffy. Still my favorite show. I've seen every episode of Buffy, Firefly and Angel. Angel was up and down. Firefly was hilarious, but i got very little emotional connection from the characters. They all seemed withdrawn, which makes them great characters just not easy to relate to.

In closing.....BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY BUFFY....oh and Buffy was good too.

[Webwalker]

Having watched... uh... every single Buffy, Angel and Firefly, I'm going to go with Firefly. For a number of reasons.

1) Buffy was awesome at the time. I couldn't understand why it was so low in the ratings, when the show was one of the best on TV. So many witty one liners! So much action, drama that often made good sense, drama that often made good metaphorical sense, awesome characters, Willow!

In my nostalgia, I bought seasons 1-5 on DVD when they were on sale at Bestbuy, and started to watch them again. And the show felt flat. What was so funny about those one-liners? Sure, some of them rocked still, but more often than I could stand, I found myself wondering what was so funny. Why did I think Oz was so cool? What was so funny about First Season Xander?

The problem was it was so time-specific. Too many jokes took pop references from the 90's and early 2000's, and alot of that is going on 10 years old now, or older. It wasn't on the tip of my tongue, being talked about by my friends and online daily, so it didn't jump out at me like it did a decade ago. Not enough of the jokes worked for me to enjoy Buffy the same way now as I did when I was first watching it. And I'm also not an early 20's/starving university student anymore.

2) Angel. I wasn't a fan of Angel the character (though I've found a great deal of respect for David Borenaz the actor via Bones), so I didn't get into Angel for a couple of seasons. I started to enjoy it quite a bit more in season 3+, and the last season I felt was the best of all. But then, I liked Illeria (sp wrong, I know, I know, I just don't feel like googling it right now.), Lorne and Spike. Wesley and Gunn were enjoyable as well, and I even liked Angel in the last few seasons.

Most of the humour seems to have held up over the years, since it wasn't as based in pop-culture as Buffy. When I watch it now, I do find it as enjoyable as I did before, unlike Buffy.

3) Firefly wasn't based in "this" world. So it couldn't have many pop-culture references. It had to be entirely self contained, or at least contained within the Sci-Fi and Western genre's. You couldn't have references to the hot bands of the time, or popular movies, or famous people; they either never existed, or had been dead for 500+ years. I can definitely see myself having a Firefly marathon in 10 years, and loving it just as much, if not more, than I do now; it has a more timeless quality than either Angel or Buffy. Of all of his works, I think Firefly will hold up best to the test of time.

[Webwalker]

Star wars Eps I-III - George realized it would just be a lame attempt at cashing in (more) on a franchise and that he sucks at dialogue and he couldn't find a good actor for Anakin and he had no idea how to convincingly make Anakin fall, so he decided not to do it.
threadjack

If Hayden Christensen had been given good writing and good directing, I think he could have done a great job in that role. He's an actor that rises to the level of the writing and directing, but can't go above it. Same with Natalie Portman. I don't think there's any actors of the proper ages to pull off Padme and Anakin in those roles as written, so I don't criticize either actor for it. The movies were little more than glorified toy commercials, imo. :smallfurious:

/threadjack

... greedo shot first!...

/THREADJACK!!

sorry. :smalleek:

[Webwalker]

Firefly was great, but Serenity had giant gaping plot holes (I argue that something like the Pax should have revealed its problems in the test stages. The most common counterargument I get is that the Reavers would have come far too rarely in the test phases. My counter-counterargument is that they shouldn't be using stuff that kills 99.9% of everyone it comes into contact with).
I think he wanted alot more time to explain the Reavers, how they go to where they are, how they ended up that way, etc. But he had to fit the entire Reaver storyline into a 2 hour movie, instead of a 20 hour TV season. I'm sure he had alot more ideas for how it worked out that he was hoping to show us, but never got the chance.

However, your point is entirely valid given the information we have. Miranda and the Pax, in Serenity, makes very little sense, for the reasons you've given here and below.

The man makes great work, but he loses steam quite spectacularly (and can't write dialgoue for crap).

I've not heard that particular criticism about his dialogue before; normally, people love his dialogue, just that they think there's too much, and it tries too hard sometimes. He does tend to run out of steam, especially in Buffy, but I can't think of any show that doesn't run into that particular problem on a regular basis.

[Ditto]

Too based in pop culture? It's a show about being in high school in the 90s... if you wanted, you could always keep it fresh by dubbing in new pop culture references every 5 or 10 years, but I don't see how that's central to enjoying the series. People liked Happy Days and Grease 20 years after the 50s, right? It's the chemisty between people that makes it worthwhile, not what they're saying per se. That's the physical attraction - it's the *relationships* that make you fall in love.:smallsmile:

Oz is *Oz*. And Seth Green. 'Nuff said. Angel as a character I always felt was uneven. He should have stayed dead after Becoming - not out of malice, but it was simply the best end to that character. Eh, he came back for long enough to jump ship to his own series. Again, I feel you could put all of Angel 1-4 together and get one really good season out of them, a la Buffy 2-3-5. And it's a more adult show, obviously you get less pop culture snarking. But c'mon, that cave man vs. astronaut debate from A Hole In The World? *Awesome!*

Firefly is way easier to have a marathon of because of what we have. 15 episodes vs. 144... not that it should really matter, but you have to pick out good ones from a much larger sample and you don't have an opportunity to take in the whole experience like you do with Firefly. It's not the end of the world, as far as this debate goes, but it's a major difference.

[Pester]

I think one of the reasons that Firefly is doing so much better than Buffy, is that Firefly, much like the insect it was named for, only had a short time to shine on this earth, and so every moment was precious. Buffy had 78 astounding episodes, followed by being touch and go for the rest of it's run. Some of the very best stuff was in the last few seasons, like the post-chip Pre-soul Spike, Hush, The Body, and so on. But, it couldn't be great every single episode like Firefly was. If Firefly had lasted that long, there probably would've been some sucky episodes of that, too.

[MReav]

I've not heard that particular criticism about his dialogue before; normally, people love his dialogue, just that they think there's too much, and it tries too hard sometimes. He does tend to run out of steam, especially in Buffy, but I can't think of any show that doesn't run into that particular problem on a regular basis.

It's not that the show ran out of steam, it's that it train-wrecked. I recall hearing about how "Ren and Stimpy" had creative control taken away from its creator, and after years of making it crappy, he finally got creative control back. In order to spite the company, he included large quantities of overtly homosexual themes. For me, WRT Buffy Season 6, we got non-stop angst, unsubtle drug themes, character assassination, and the idea that the writers hate the show and aren't being paid enough not to show it.

As for dialogue, I cite a lot of lame Buffy Lines as my reason.
"The thing? Oh, the thing! The thing that we are supposed to be doing" (not an actual quote, but along those lines). I got the idea in the earlier seasons that the characters could say "Hey mom, I'm going out to not kill vampires and save the world!" and the response would be "okay, honey be back home for dinner!"

[Ditto]

"The thing? Oh, the *thing*..." is not an example of bad dialogue. It's exactly what you'd say when you're caught in a lie, trying to avoid saying "I have to go hunt vampires. Er, I mean umpires. I hate their unfair sports decisions!" How fast do you want your TV highschoolers to think? :smalltongue: Bad dialogue basically anything Kennedy ever said, and Dawn the longer her character was allowed to speak. By the end of season 7, they were deluging her with improper grammar and awkward fake-slang to demonstrate her 15-year-old-ness, and Michelle Trachtenberg was fed up with it.

78 stellar episodes? Yeah, that *is* pretty weak. When only 55% of your show is *stellar*, you're really missing something. :smallbiggrin:

[Saithis Bladewing]

As much as I loved Buffy and Angel, Firefly got me engaged in the characters and stories within the first five minutes of the PILOT. The Buffiverse took me several episodes to get involved in. I didn't mind seeing Buffy/Angel end, but I was greatly disappointed to see Firefly end. I think it had more potential.

[MReav]

"The thing? Oh, the *thing*..." is not an example of bad dialogue. It's exactly what you'd say when you're caught in a lie, trying to avoid saying "I have to go hunt vampires. Er, I mean umpires. I hate their unfair sports decisions!" How fast do you want your TV highschoolers to think?

It's still lame. Painfully lame, and requires that the people they're talking to to have really lacking intellects.

[Eldpollard]

director of Business School (The Office Season three)

Which office? The original UK version or the American one?
EDIT: And for me it's firefly, cancelled way before it's time.

[ray53208]

dont care. loved all the shows. loved every episode.

its not that im not critical. anyone who knows me knows that i am hypercritical. its not that im easy to entertain. i hate everything.

but i love these shows. something about them resonates to some sublime frequency and reaches me. i often wonder what it is that others are not seeing. sure, some episodes are better than others; thats the nature of the beast. overall, every episode of every show has entertained me in the utmost and even inspired me to be a better human being.

a long time ago i came to the decision that if someone doesnt like the show, well, then thats their loss.

[averagejoe]

Firefly is way easier to have a marathon of because of what we have. 15 episodes vs. 144... not that it should really matter, but you have to pick out good ones from a much larger sample and you don't have an opportunity to take in the whole experience like you do with Firefly. It's not the end of the world, as far as this debate goes, but it's a major difference.

The thing is, though, that most single episodes of Firefly were better than any single episode of Buffy, and even in that short time I developed a much deeper connection with the characters than I ever had with any of the Buffy ones. That was the primary reason I enjoyed Serenity. It's normally the type of movie I would hate, but I actually cared about the characters, so it was actually tense for me. I was quite literally on the edge of my seat, this far from going, "No, watch out, ooo, left, left," that sort of thing. (I didn't, of course, because I don't want to go to the special hell :smallbiggrin: ) I couldn't say the same would be true for Buffy at any point.

A lot of it was the little things. The way, for example, that Jayne and Book became fairly close friends. It isn't something one would expect, knowing both of their characters, but it seemed to fit so well once it was implimented. Stuff like that made the characters come alive so well.

[ray53208]

whos looking forward to Firefly Official Companion, Vol. 2?

its going to have two unshot scripts in it.

[Amotis]

Which office? The original UK version or the American one?
EDIT: And for me it's firefly, cancelled way before it's time.

American one. Pretty funny too.

[Andiamo]

Not a specific episode, its in the first part of the four hour miniseries that preceded the show. You'd need to get a copy of the first season DVD set to find it these days.

Wait, wait, wait. What? I have the first season on DVD, and I don't know anything about this miniseries. But if there is more Firefly to be seen, I would love to see it. Can someone please explain?

[Joran]

Wait, wait, wait. What? I have the first season on DVD, and I don't know anything about this miniseries. But if there is more Firefly to be seen, I would love to see it. Can someone please explain?

Sorry to disappoint.

He was talking about the 4 hour miniseries to start off Battlestar Galactica, not Firefly.

The same CGI company did both series, so as a homage, they added a fly-by of Serenity during the BSG miniseries.

[ray53208]

here it is on caprica when rosalin is informed by the doctor that she has cancer. the camera pans up to see the city skyline outside the indows.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/1898/fireflyonglacticawe0.th.jpg (http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fireflyonglacticawe0.jpg)

[ray53208]

on whedonesque, joss had this to say:

"Yes, fanlings, there is going to be a 2 disc 'Special Edition' released this summer. You know why? 'Cause the 1 disc 'Normal Edition' has sold so well -- so maybe a little self-back-patting is in order for you guys. Way to keep her in the air.

It's too early to be sure what the Special Edition will contain, but here are some things we're going for:

NEW KEY ART.

Cast commentary -- assuming I can get a decent number of them in one room. They're very busy people, I'm happy to say.

NEW KEY ART.

The region 4 goodies, obviously.

The Tam Sessions.

KEY NEW ART.

New Yub Yub, and Greedo shoots first. So does that kid outside the trading station, the pilot who destroyed Haven, and Kaylee. And Richard Dreyfuss goes INSIDE the mothership.

KEW RAT YEN.

An alternate ending, if you turn it off early.

Proof of the existence of a benevolent higher power -- uh, I mean, new key art.

Mice.


And honestly, what more do you want? Don't answer that, I already know and it's unseemly. But I'm pretty excited here. Back to work, -j.

Take my Yub,
Take Yub Yub,
Yub Yub tak the Yub from Meee...dichlorians.... "

http://whedonesque.com/comments/12606

im stoked.

[Tam_OConnor]

Firefly, but only in the total quality of episodes to number of episodes ratio. Buffy is whiny, but it probably has the best episodes overall.
Angel season 5 rocked, but 3 and 4, not so much. Pity about Doyle, and Whistler never showing up. But, come on: Spike: "You're a bloody puppet!"
Serenity was good, but not as a stand-alone movie, as the second 2-hour episode.
X-men, etc: Haven't read enough to know.

[ray53208]

that gorram muppet costs over 300 clams. theres a totally kick-butt model of serenity available for over 400 simoleons. the works of joss whedon cause me to utterly reject my non-materialistic way of life. i crave stuff.

[Don Beegles]

Oh, Firefly. I love thee so.

I've never seen Buffy or Angel, probably will sometime, but I've only seen Firefly and it kicked some sort of indescribable ass. Someone pinch me, and I can wake up from this nightmare that it's been cancelled and go watch Season 4 and see the new developments that we can only imagine because we'll never see them.

*Sniff* I get emotional just thinking about it.

[Sundog]

Angel. Specifically, the final season.

It's a prolonged musing on the nature of good, evil, morality and compromise. The good guys are placed in chrage of the bad guy organization - so they have the chance to do great good, but only if they accept that they are complicit in great evil.

And the climax in the final episode blew my brains out.

Firefly/Serenity COULD have been better. But it never got the chance to develop as it should.

[Elliot Kane]

The final season of Angel rocks, but the other seasons are about half great and half not very good, so no.

I never saw Firefly. Not sure it's ever been on terrestrial TV in the UK, and if it has, I missed it.

Buffy has the execrable season four and some bad parts in seasons 5-7 but... overall it rocks. So Buffy gets my vote.

However, Joss' best standalone project, IMO, was Fray, the (comic) mini-series he created starring Melaka Fray, the Slayer of a far future Earth. That was just great from beginning to end.

Buffy series 8 is off to a good start, though :)

[ray53208]

goners is his next movie project. i joined the fanbase early so i gets me the goods when the goods are to be gotten. arrrr me matey. sorry. i went pirate there for a seond. felt pretty good. except for the scurvy.

http://gonersmovie.com/

[Elidyr]

So much love for Firefly, yet from watching the first 3 or so episodes, it all seemed so lackluster.

So I'm wondering, is the show more of a american only thing? Anyone outside of the US that actually finds Firefly good, or is it only aimed at the US audience with the wild west-civil war theme?

[ray53208]

what? are you kidding me? firefly has many fans outside the USA. there is a big fanbase in australia and england.

[Cyrano]

Firefly was it. Overlooking the sci-fi aspect of it, it was real. Real in that it was gritty, had no special powers, wasn't glitzed up for a movie audience. Serenity wasn't clean, was falling apart... everthing you'd expect for the people they were. They crew might've done noble tasks, but were far from noble themselves.

Shows like Desperate Housewives and Scrubs are hollow nothings, and they cancel Firefly. Does that seem right to you?

Now I agree, Firefly rocks. It is amazing. It is real. It is realer than any other sci fi I have ever seen. But I'm sorta miffed you compare it to scrubs. Thats like comparing, say, hand-made medieval times ale to concentrated fruit juice. If you want one, you don't want the other, and besides, they came years apart, so saying OMG THEY CANCELLED ALE is unrelated to thefact that the fruit juice rocks.

Yeah, I know my analogys suck. Whatcha gonna do about it? Insult me?
...
oh.

By the way, I also know its late. ITS NEVER TO LATE TO NITPICK.

Anyway, I vote Firefly! Real, awesome, heart wrenching and original. The universe is massive, the characters are amazing, the effects are beautiful and nothing is overdone.

[Caledonian]

It still fails the plausibility litmus test for me. You're experimenting with an unknown material, you don't do that crap unless you're a poorly written faceless B-Movie villain. Furthermore, if they're unethical enough to experiment on a planetary scale on a population, why didn't they just send a fleet to cover up their misdeeds by nuking the planet from orbit? Claim a war broke out.

It was established quite early into the series that the terraforming still left unusual surprises: the miners whose exposure to minerals gave them a progressive respiratory disorder, for example.

Possibilities:

There was something about the way the Pax was released onto Miranda caused an interaction that the scientists hadn't realized was possible.

There was something about the location where the Pax was tested that caused an interaction that negated the negative effects of the drug.

There had been small-scale tests with limited and controlled doses, and the government saw no reason to bother with more extensive testing when it could move straight to a planetoid. Things like informed consent and safety protocols don't matter much to governments when they have access to cheap and abundant labor pools. The Alliance was part American, part Chinese. Think about their histories for a while.

[ray53208]

the thing is testing chemicals on an unwitting populace has been done before. the pax wasnt supposed to hurt anyone, but it did. declaring it a military act might have destabilized a huge region of the alliance and cost popular support for the military which would have been a boon to the browncoats. nuking a planet that took years to terraform when the agent would dissipate over time on its own is wasteful; to the corporate state its been proven that people are expendable.

[PaladinFreak]

*Joins the chanting*

FIREFLY! FIREFLY! FIREFLY!

[ray53208]

no one has mentioned Titan AE?

[Pester]

I would've put it on, but the new forums only allow 5 options. I also would've included Whedon's cameos on the Office, Veronica Mars, and Angel, his comic books, and Toy Story. Joss Whedon is a busy guy.

[MReav]

no one has mentioned Titan AE?

For good reason. The movie wasn't that great.

[ray53208]

it wasnt that bad either.

[averagejoe]

no one has mentioned Titan AE?

Was that the movie about that ship that was earth or something? And there were CG aliens made out of energy? I didn't know Whedon did that.

[MReav]

it wasnt that bad either.

Yeah, but the question involves his best work, not his passable work.

[ray53208]

his passable is still better than most peoples best.

[Don Beegles]

But it's not better than his best so it shouldn't be on a poll for the best, should it.

[Peter Harris]

Truth be told, I'm more interested in discussing what will be Joss' next work.

[Pester]

Well, since he's not doing Wonder Woman anymore, what is his next work?

[ZombieEl]

My brain hurts when I think too much about Buffy. It just plain hurts. I hate that girl. Straight up hate her. The side characters were interesting, but I couldn't stand that whiny little bitch. Angel, excepting the first season (which still had a few poignant episodes) was fantastic, through and through. They explored every single element of what it was to be a hero, and Angel has to be my favorite fictional character ever.

Nothing ever went right in Angel. When you really sit down and watch it through, you realize a LOT of bad happened to him and his crew. But still, they always pulled through, they worked through their problems in the end, and Angel kept fighting because he's Angel. The show is not about teens and their whiny little problems. It's about being an adult, what's wrong with the world, why we even try when there's so little that's right.

I agree with this. I also bought the box with every episode, hooray for Angel.

I think firefly got off to a better start than Angel did, but being so short it doesn't really have anything interesting. Cordelia going from cheerleader to superhero for example.

Buffy just makes me sick. In one episode they said that her litany of emotional problems are a strength. HAHAHA! Buffy is not a strong female character, she is an emotional wreck, a childish bully, cry baby amongst other things. It just happens that she has super strength.

[Serenity]

I want to vote for both Firefly and Buffy; I love 'em both to pieces. Being only able to vote for one, though, I gotta go with Firefly. So much concentrated awesomeness.

[Dhavaer]

Well, since he's not doing Wonder Woman anymore, what is his next work?

Buffy Season 8.