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AMFV
2014-08-27, 02:45 PM
Arcane Pilgrim

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/16/84/94/16849445a19ea519f9d1984babb79659.jpg
One life is all we have and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying.

Sometimes a calling by the Gods is not simply a calling to be a Knight. Sometimes it is a call to study far beyond your home. Pilgrims are called as Paladins are. To travel the world and study the works of the Gods of good, and to defend the weak along their path. They are invested with Arcane Power from their years of study, and learn to combine it with the power of their calling. They are Holy Warriors of the Arcane.

Adventures: An Arcane Pilgrim adventures because she must. She is called to wander, and to protect others who wander.

Characteristics: An Arcane Pilgrim represents the unified calling as a Holy Warrior, and the casting of spells. It is a discipline that involves both intense study (religious and otherwise) and requires a deep and abiding spirit.

Alignment: Lawful Good

Religion: Arcane Pilgrims can follow the religion of any Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, or Neutral Good deity. Their powers stem mostly from the forces of good and law in the abstract though, and many of them follow a mixture of religions or study several religions.

Races: Any race can be called to an Arcane Pilgrimage.

Other Classes: Arcane Pilgrims tend to get along best with other lawful religious classes. They have much in common with Paladins although, their methodology varies considerably. They also tend to have a good relationship with Wizards, since they are both interested in the same sort of studying. They do not get along well with classes that they consider irresponsible or frivolous.

Role: An Arcane Pilgrim is intended to fill a role as a secondary caster and melee fighter. There are circumstances where they will excel, beyond primary casters or fighters, but not under most circumstances, fighting Evil is their strong suite however, and this is where they excel.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Arcane Pilgrims have the following game statistics.
Abilities: An Arcane Pilgrim will value Intelligence and Strength highly, since many of their abilities involve being in melee combat, and because Intelligence drives their Spellcasting. They also consider Charisma and Constitution to be significant, since one powers their Smiting and Divine Abilities and the other increases their survivability. After their early levels dexterity becomes less important as they develop the ability to cast spells without Arcane Spell Failure.
Alignment: Lawful Good
Hit Die: d8
Starting Age: As Wizard
Starting Gold: As Wizard

Class Skills
The Arcane Pilgrim's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points at First Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

ARCANE PILGRIM


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special


1st

+0

+2

+0

+2
Smite Evil 1/day, Detect Evil, Aura of Good, Spellcasting.


2nd

+1

+3

+0

+3
Divine Grace, Armored Caster (Swift), Spell Conversion.


3rd

+2

+3

+1

+3
Aura of Courage, Favored Enemy (Evil)


4th

+3

+4

+1

+4
Divine Health, Spell-Channeling Smite


5th

+3

+4

+1

+4
Smite Evil 2/day, Blessed Mount


6th

+4

+5

+2

+5
Armored Caster (Standard)


7th

+5

+5

+2

+5
Improved Spell-Channeling Smite


8th

+6/+1

+6

+2

+6
Bonus Feat (Devotion)


9th

+6/+1

+6

+3

+6
Favored Enemy (Evil) +4


10th

+7/+2

+7

+3

+7
Smite Evil 3/day


11th

+8/+3

+7

+3

+7
Armored Caster (All)


12th

+9/+4

+8

+4

+8



13th

+9/+4

+8

+4

+8
Greater Spell-Channeling Smite


14th

+10/+5

+9

+4

+9
Bonus Feat (Devotion), Favored Enemy (Evil) +6


15th

+11/+6/+1

+9

+5

+9
Smite Evil 4/day


16th

+12/+7/+2

+10

+5

+10



17th

+12/+7/+2

+10

+5

+10
Supreme Spell-Channeling Smite, 1/day


18th

+13/+8/+3

+11

+6

+11



19th

+14/+9/+4

+11

+6

+11
Favored Enemy (Evil) +8


20th

+15/+10/+5

+12

+6

+12
Smite Evil 5/day



Spells per Day


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th



1st
1
-
-
-
-
-
-



2nd
2
0*
-
-
-
-
-



3rd
2
1
-
-
-
-
-



4th
2
1
0*
-
-
-
-



5th
2
2
1
-
-
-
-



6th
2
2
1
0*
-
-
-



7th
2
2
1
1
-
-
-



8th
2
2
2
1
-
-
-



9th
2
2
2
1
0*
-
-



10th
2
2
2
1
1
-
-



11th
2
2
2
2
1
0*
-



12th
2
2
2
2
1
1
-



13th
3
2
2
2
2
1
-



14th
3
3
2
2
2
1
0*



15th
3
3
3
2
2
1
1



16th
3
3
3
3
2
1
1



17th
3
3
3
3
3
2
1



18th
3
3
3
3
3
2
2



19th
3
3
3
3
3
3
2



20th
3
3
3
3
3
3
3



*Can Only Cast at this Level if the Arcane Pilgrim has a high enough intelligence to have bonus spells at this level

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the Arcane Pilgrim.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:

Arcane Pilgrims are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light). Additionally an Arcane Pilgrim never suffers from Arcane Spell Failure when wearing light armor.

Spells:

An Arcane Pilgrim casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A Arcane Pilgrim must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the Arcane Pilgrim must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an Arcane Pilgrim's spell is 10 + the spell level + the Arcane Pilgrimís Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, an Arcane Pilgrim can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on the Table. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, an Arcane Pilgrim may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good nightís sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the Arcane Pilgrim decides which spells to prepare.

Spellbook:

An Arcane Pilgrim must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic and detect evil, which all Arcane Pilgrim's can prepare from memory.

An Arcane Pilgrim begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells. At each new Arcane Pilgrim level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new Arcane Pilgrim level) for her spellbook. At any time, An Arcane Pilgrim can also add spells found in other wizardsí spellbooks to her own.

Code of Conduct:

An Arcane Pilrgim must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, an Arcane Pilgrim's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Finally, an Arcane Pilgrim, is forbidden from ever establishing a permanent home, she must wander fighting Evil and protecting the innocent for as long as she is called to her Pilgrimage, which can be for some a life sentence, for others it is substantially less.

Associates

Unlike a Paladin an Arcane Pilgrim may associate with those of Evil Alignment, provided that she is attempting to redeem them or that there is dire circumstances. However most Arcane Pilgrims find this at best distasteful and at worst extremely dubious.

Smite Evil (Su):

Once per day, an Arcane Pilgrim may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma modifier (if positive) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per Arcane Pilgrim level. If the Arcane Pilgrim accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the Arcane Pilgrim may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on the table to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level.

Aura of Good (Ex):

The power of an Arcane Pilgrim's aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her Arcane Pilgrim level.

Detect Evil (Sp):
At will, an Arcane Pilgrim can use detect evil, as the spell.

Armored Caster

At 2nd Level an Arcane Disciple no longer suffers from Arcane Spell Failure when casting Arcane Pilgrim spells with a casting time less than one standard action.

At 6th Level this ability improves, and the Arcane Pilgrim may cast any Arcane Pilgrim spell with a casting time of one standard action or less without suffering from Arcane Spell Failure.

At 11th Level, this ability again improves, and as long as the Arcane Pilgrim is casting spells obtained as an Arcane Pilgrim, she suffers no Arcane Spell Failure regardless of the casting time of the spell.

Divine Grace(Su):

At 2nd level, an Arcane Pilgrim gains a bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if positive) on all saving throws.

Spell Conversion (Su):

At 2nd Level an Arcane Pilgrim better learns to understand the unity between the Arcane and the Divine. They learn to take advantage of this unity in the following way. They may sacrifice spells in order to gain additional uses of the smite ability. This choice may be made at any point following the preparation of spells, and the gained Smites per day last until the Arcane Pilgrim prepares spells the following day. For each level of spell, the Pilgrim exchanges, she obtains 1/2 of a smite per day. So an Arcane Pilgrim could sacrifice two level 1 spells, or one 2nd level spell to gain an extra smite. This conversion process requires a full round of concentration to achieve.

Aura of Courage(Su):

Beginning at 3rd level, an Arcane Pilgrim is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.

This ability functions while the Arcane Pilgrim is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.

Spell-Channeling Smite (Su):

At 4th Level, when an Arcane Pilgrim delivers a successful smiting attack, she may cast one of her prepared Arcane Pilgrim spells as an immediate action following the smite. This spell must be at least two levels lower than the highest level spell she may cast through her Arcane Pilgrim Levels.

Also for the purposes of the Armored Caster (Swift), the casting time is treated as Immediate and therefore the Spell-Channeling Smite never incurs Arcane Spell Failure.

Divine Health (Ex):
At 4th level, an Arcane Pilgrim gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.

Favored Enemy Evil (Su):

At 3rd Level, an Arcane Pilgrim, gains Evil enemies as a favored enemy, this ability functions similarly to and is equivalent (for purposes of prerequisites) to a Rangers favored enemy ability. Giving her +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against Evil Creatures. However unlike the ranger's favored enemy, she gets a +2 bonus on to-hit rolls against Evil creatures. This increases to +4 at level at 9, +6 at level 14, and +8 at level 19.

If the Arcane Pilgrim has Favored Enemy (Evil) from a different class the bonus to skills against the class does not stack, however to bonuses to to-hit and to damage will both apply in that case.

Blessed Mount(Sp):

At 5th Level the Arcane Pilgrim is granted the services of a Blessed Mount. A creature which is treated both a Special Mount and as a familiar. It advances it's abilities as both, however the advancement is treated as four levels lower than normal for the Familiar abilities. For example a 10th level Arcane Pilgrim's Blessed Mount would have the abilities of a 6th Level Wizard's Familiar and a 10th Paladin's Special Mount. The Intelligence Bonuses and Natural Armor Bonuses are not cumulative, the highest total should be taken for any given level

Improved Spell-Channeling Smite(Su):

At 7th Level, an Arcane Pilgrim's Spell-Channeling smite ability improves. Allowing her to cast any prepared Arcane Pilgrim Spell, at least one level below the maximum level she can cast, after achieving a successful Smite.

Bonus Feat (Devotion):

At 8th Level and 14th, an Arcane Pilgrim's study of her deities religious works improves and she obtains the benefits of her greater devotion. She may select one dmoai nfeat as a bonus feat, for which she meets the prerequisites. The domain Feat must be one of the domains her deity offers as a domain, or must be related to her ideals if she does not follow a deity.

An Arcane Pilgrim may always select the Knowledge and Good domains regardless of their deity. Additionally if the feat allows a turn attempt to be expended in order to fuel additional use per day, an Arcane Pilgrim may convert one of her Smite attempts into an additional use.

Greater Spell-Channeling Smite (Su):

At level 13, an Arcane Pilgrim's Spell-Channeling smite ability improves again. Now, when she performs a Spell-Channeling Smite, she may cast as an immediate action any of her prepared Arcane Pilgrim Spells regardless of level.

Supreme Spell-Channeling Smite(Su):

At level 17, an Arcane Pilgrim, learns to perfectly unify her spell casting and her swordplay in the service of her ideals. Once per day, while executing a Smite as part of a full attack action, she may (if the smite is successful), not only channel a single prepared Arcane Pilgrim spell, but also one spell one level lower than her maximum casting level, and one two levels lower. If the Smite fails, this ability is not expended for the day. These spells are all cast as a single immediate action.

Edit/Changelog:

Shifted Spell-Channeling Smite to 4th Level and Favored Enemy Evil to 3rd, since spell Channeling Smite needs at least 2nd level spells to function initially

8/29/2014 - Fixed some grammar errors. Added the ability to convert spell energy to smites. Added a few additional always permitted Domain feats to the bonus Domain feat list and added the ability to convert Smite Energy to fuel them if they had a Turn Undead fuel option. Also modified the Blessed Mount so that it uses the Arcane Pilgrim Level as a full Paladin level rather than at Paladin Level -4. Lastly, added a clause allowing casting in light armor to the proficiency section

8/29/2014 - Mark 2 - Readdressed the unclear bit about Armored Casting, it should finally be clear and not totally unreadable now.

AMFV
2014-08-27, 02:46 PM
Design Notes:

I conceived of this class when I was examining the High-One Warrior Wizard to see if there was any way to make it viable. In the end I wound up with a pile of unsynergistic class features, many of which seemed at odds with each other. So I sought to make some sense of the chaos, and to produce a viable Arcane Holy Warrior. First I took most of the abilities and reproduced them, I feel that since the character is medium BAB it won't be too much beyond the ken of an optimized Paladin. At least not at early levels.

The secondary goal, was to produce a character that fixes the fundamental problem of Gishing. Which is why in 3.5 everybody tries to hit the 9th Level Spells and 16 BAB goal, because your abilities don't work together, roughly half of the time you are a worse wizard and the other half of the time you are a worse fighter. This was an attempt to fix that problem, by allowing you to do both at the same time, albeit in a limited sense. We also have a powerful mount, which should help to assuage the issue with not being able to perform all of the abilities at once.

Also I ran against the fact that there are no 6th Level limited prepared casters in the game. So I had to do some interesting things with the spell progression. They get one less spell than Bards per level, which seems to fit the Spontaneous Progression vs. Prepared. They also recieve spells typically one level earlier. Fitting the same mold again.

The Bonus Domain feats were in essence granted to replace the bonus Casting feats that the Wizard would have gotten, they also help nicely to round some of the dead levels. Also the two builds averaged out to a d6 hit die, which seemed inadequate for a front line character who may be restricted in what armor they can wear.

For the Armored Casting, I used a tact that I've never seen before, but it seems like it will produce interesting results. Rather than limiting them to certain kinds of armor. I limited them to certain spells. Notably this also produces greater synergy with the Spell Channeling Smite ability.

Lastly, you are probably wondering "where does Favored Enemy (Evil) come from?" And that's a reasonable question. My issue was that we had a medium BAB character intended to be a front line fighter. All such characters Bards, Clerics tend to have ways to mitigate this weakness. I figured that this was an appropriate one, fitting and a better fit for the build than trying to shove Turn Undead in there would have been.

Anyways, that's my reasoning behind most of the abilities. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Edit: Also the fluff was done last, and while I had better ideas in my head fatigue shows through a little. So I will probably expand on that and on the Blessed Mount at some point. Also I'm not sure how to rule on smiting stuff from other classes and how that should interact.

Bluydee
2014-08-27, 05:26 PM
This suffers from MAD, needing Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution like any other ability, but also requires Charisma and Intelligence. I think you should probably change their casting stat to charisma, and also you need to fix some errors where it refers to the class as a wizard.

AMFV
2014-08-27, 05:30 PM
This suffers from MAD, needing Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution like any other ability, but also requires Charisma and Intelligence. I think you should probably change their casting stat to charisma, and also you need to fix some errors where it refers to the class as a wizard.

Thanks, the glitches are corrected. I don't think they're that much more MAD than a standard Paladin would be though, that's kind of the fate of Gishy classes. I'm not sure if there's a way to fix that or not. Or even if it should be fixed. I mean you have spellcasting and that can make up for a lot of stat deficiency as soon as it comes online.

Kamai
2014-08-28, 03:52 AM
My thoughts:

I really do like the idea of the arcane paladin, and could eventually have fun with this. This could be a lot of fun to play, but there are a few things that I think should be looked at.

Smite Evil: I never liked 3.5's Smite Evil. Even though spell channeling plays nicely with it, 1/day at lower levels just feels bad. Sure, you have 1st (and later 2nd level spells) with the 1 smite evil, but if I'm playing a Paladin-alike, I want to do nasty things to evil creatures. Favored Enemy (Evil) does help with this, but it just doesn't feel right. On top of this, if this is supposed to make use of evocations, it would be really cool if there was a way to channel it into a ranged or AoE spell. I know Spell Channeling kind of does this, but I'm thinking more "Holy burning hands" and less "Smite and burn".

Another thought on Smite Evil. Maybe I can burn spell slots to be able to Smite Evil without using my smites/day? It gives kind of an out for bad preparations, and channeling arcane might to send pain into evil could fit the feel.

Spellcasting: You'd do better with a dedicated list instead of all from Sorcerer/Wizard. Being able to summon creatures and grow tentacles out of the ground is almost as jarring for a paladin-type as not having access to things like Righteous Might. The Pathfinder Magus and extended 3.5 paladin list might be a good spot to start drawing from. If you build your own list, you can think about making it Charisma-based, but as it is, full Wizard 6th level spells on it's own is probably enough to make it T3. Building your own list can let you get a few appropriate things early access, like Tenser's Transformation.

Devotion: This is where not having Turn Undead feels a bit off. You get these neat domain powers, but can only use them 1/day since you can't power it with turnings. I also think that they should be able to take the Good, Magic, and Knowledge domain feats (maybe Law, too) independent of their Patron Deity, because it seems to me that's what Arcane Pilgrims have in common, and leaves the idea of serving Good, even over the deities that the Paladins do.

Blessed Mount: Paladin mount is actually undefined for a Paladin levels 1-4 in 3.5. You note that it's treated as both a special mount and a familiar, but both have restrictions on what you can actually get, and they are mutually exclusive unless you get DM permission. Assuming how this is intended, though, let me make sure I have the intended mount right. I pick up a Warhorse at level 5, when I first get this ability.


I can get a warhorse, but it doesn't gain the familiar bonus to skills/saves/other checks since Warhorse is not a listed Familiar.
It has 5 effective HD for the purposes of spells (since that's your character level, and it gains no bonus HD, because of the 1-4 extrapolated warhorse).
The higher of 30 hp or 1/2 your hp
It has 6 intelligence and +1 natural armor from familiar.
Alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link from familiar (overlaps with Paladin abilities at 9th)
BAB +3 (Your BAB overwrites the 4 animal HD)
Skill sharing
The mount is permanent, but can be dismissed freely to the celestial realm, and called back 1/day, fully healing it. This is also effectively a 0th level spell (if that matters) until 8th level.

Does this sound about right? If so, how does this all interact with Improved Familiar or the DMG rules of being able to get a better mount at a higher Paladin level?

If all of the above is true, he's going to be more fragile than a standard paladin mount (outside of improved Evasion). He doesn't get too much that the paladin mount doesn't already get at Paladin 5.



General Notes:
I don't see an answer to the question of "Why take levels 18-20 of Arcane Pilgrim?".
Minor: If you are referring to a bonus instead of a modifier, official things use (if any) not (if positive).
Devotion, Greater Spell-channeling smite, and Supreme spell channeling smite all need an editor pass.
Armored Caster: Spells have a 1 swift casting time, not a swift duration.

AMFV
2014-08-28, 08:41 AM
My thoughts:

I really do like the idea of the arcane paladin, and could eventually have fun with this. This could be a lot of fun to play, but there are a few things that I think should be looked at.

Smite Evil: I never liked 3.5's Smite Evil. Even though spell channeling plays nicely with it, 1/day at lower levels just feels bad. Sure, you have 1st (and later 2nd level spells) with the 1 smite evil, but if I'm playing a Paladin-alike, I want to do nasty things to evil creatures. Favored Enemy (Evil) does help with this, but it just doesn't feel right. On top of this, if this is supposed to make use of evocations, it would be really cool if there was a way to channel it into a ranged or AoE spell. I know Spell Channeling kind of does this, but I'm thinking more "Holy burning hands" and less "Smite and burn".


Well as far as that goes, it's not supposed to be limited to one type of spell. Basically I'm trying to avoid, "Channel a Touch Spell through your weapon" or "Channel a Ray spell through your weapon. As far as the 1/day, that's mostly an issue of the class taking a bit to grow into it's own. Extra smite would be almost required to make this sort of character work. And while I'm not always a fan of feats that people have to use, I'm not categorically opposed.



Another thought on Smite Evil. Maybe I can burn spell slots to be able to Smite Evil without using my smites/day? It gives kind of an out for bad preparations, and channeling arcane might to send pain into evil could fit the feel.

Snazzy, I'd thought of something similar at one point then it had slipped my mind by the final build. I'll have to give that some thought, but it seems like a definitively workable idea. I'll definitely look into adding that.



Spellcasting: You'd do better with a dedicated list instead of all from Sorcerer/Wizard. Being able to summon creatures and grow tentacles out of the ground is almost as jarring for a paladin-type as not having access to things like Righteous Might. The Pathfinder Magus and extended 3.5 paladin list might be a good spot to start drawing from. If you build your own list, you can think about making it Charisma-based, but as it is, full Wizard 6th level spells on it's own is probably enough to make it T3. Building your own list can let you get a few appropriate things early access, like Tenser's Transformation.

Well to be fair you do get access to Tenser's Transformation at 14th level. I'd thought about doing a specific list, but I tend to generally categorically dislike them. I might consider adding a few spells to their list though, so I'd have something like the Wizard/Sorcerer list and the spells from X domain. That seems to fit actually. As far as the thematic thing goes I'd rather have people able to take more spell choices than be trapped with fewer options because of thematic appropriateness. Or my perceived thematic appropriateness.



Devotion: This is where not having Turn Undead feels a bit off. You get these neat domain powers, but can only use them 1/day since you can't power it with turnings. I also think that they should be able to take the Good, Magic, and Knowledge domain feats (maybe Law, too) independent of their Patron Deity, because it seems to me that's what Arcane Pilgrims have in common, and leaves the idea of serving Good, even over the deities that the Paladins do.


That could work, I might add a line about being able to exchange smites to power the feats, which would fit particularly if you can turn your spells into smites. Or something similar with Spells without having to do the full exchange.



Blessed Mount: Paladin mount is actually undefined for a Paladin levels 1-4 in 3.5. You note that it's treated as both a special mount and a familiar, but both have restrictions on what you can actually get, and they are mutually exclusive unless you get DM permission. Assuming how this is intended, though, let me make sure I have the intended mount right. I pick up a Warhorse at level 5, when I first get this ability.

I can get a warhorse, but it doesn't gain the familiar bonus to skills/saves/other checks since Warhorse is not a listed Familiar.

It should still have the Save/Skill/Checks bonus, it would not give you a bonus to any save skill or check though if that's what you're saying.



It has 5 effective HD for the purposes of spells (since that's your character level, and it gains no bonus HD, because of the 1-4 extrapolated warhorse).
The higher of 30 hp or 1/2 your hp
It has 6 intelligence and +1 natural armor from familiar.
Alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link from familiar (overlaps with Paladin abilities at 9th)
BAB +3 (Your BAB overwrites the 4 animal HD)
Skill sharing
The mount is permanent, but can be dismissed freely to the celestial realm, and called back 1/day, fully healing it. This is also effectively a 0th level spell (if that matters) until 8th level.

Does this sound about right? If so, how does this all interact with Improved Familiar or the DMG rules of being able to get a better mount at a higher Paladin level?

I hadn't decided yet. I'm honestly going to have to think on that one and add something. Admittedly the Blessed Familiar ability is the least fleshed out thing I've got so far.



If all of the above is true, he's going to be more fragile than a standard paladin mount (outside of improved Evasion). He doesn't get too much that the paladin mount doesn't already get at Paladin 5.


Well the advantage is that sharing Wizard buffs with a mount is a helluva lot better than sharing Paladin buffs with one. I think that should make up the difference but I'm not completely sure f it would in play.



General Notes:
I don't see an answer to the question of "Why take levels 18-20 of Arcane Pilgrim?".


That's actually a deliberate design choice. I chose to give them their capstone early so that you could take a few levels of multiclassing without dying. You could pick up Turn Undead that way, or any number of other things. You do get a bonus on your Favored Enemy though, and 1/day Smite (Since smites/day are really your bread and butter that isn't a small thing)



Minor: If you are referring to a bonus instead of a modifier, official things use (if any) not (if positive).

If positive was actually used in later things, just not in the earlier Divine Grace type things. I was mostly trying to make it very clear that you wouldn't ever wind up losing out on saves. I should probably change "bonus" to "modifier" though since that's I believe the wording they use.



Devotion, Greater Spell-channeling smite, and Supreme spell channeling smite all need an editor pass.
Armored Caster: Spells have a 1 swift casting time, not a swift duration.

I'll grab the minor edits when I have time to make another pass through it. I just wanted to make sure I responded and thanked-you for your input before taking off for work. I definitely appreciate the input even if I'm not sure I agree with all of it. (The exchanging spells for smites thing though is definitely getting worked in)

Jeff the Green
2014-08-29, 01:41 AM
I need to look at it more thoroughly, so these are just some quick thoughts.

I like the idea of getting extra smites for spell slots; smite/day is really annoying. The other option (which I houserule Paladins to have) is smite/encounter.

MAD is a problem. It's a problem for Paladin, but even more so here. You need Intelligence far more than Paladins need Wisdom, and you can't dump Dexterity if you're starting at level 1. I'd suggest expanding Divine Grace. At 1st Charisma replaces Dexterity to AC (subject to max Dex bonus of armor). At 2nd it goes to saves. Later it could go to key skills (Ride is a good candidate) or a bunch of Dex (and even Str) rolls like Factotum, cease being subject to max Dex, or increase damage a la warmage.

I see that you don't want to create a separate spell list, but I'd strongly encourage it. As Kamai said, it looks really weird to have a paladin cast black tentacles or such. And from a strictly meta-brew level, it's a good thing because it makes the class more unique so more people will want to try it or critique it.

Do go over grammar and such. For the most part it's intelligible, but it makes reading it harder. "Instantaneous or swift duration stuck out and it took me a minute or so to figure out that you meant "immediate or swift casting time", and making your reader think about what you meant is never a good thing.

AMFV
2014-08-29, 12:23 PM
I need to look at it more thoroughly, so these are just some quick thoughts.

I definitely look forward to your further notes. I've altered a few things, and made some alterations that Kamai suggested as well.



I like the idea of getting extra smites for spell slots; smite/day is really annoying. The other option (which I houserule Paladins to have) is smite/encounter.

Well the problem is that Smites essentially by the end are translating into free uses of Quicken Spell, which is a pretty potent ability, so I don't necessarily want an Arcane Disciple able to use Quicken Spell for free, five times in an encounter (at a minimum). I did add that spell conversion thing though. That really fits and it allows the conversion to work the other direction as well, so now the Wizard side has some synergy.



MAD is a problem. It's a problem for Paladin, but even more so here. You need Intelligence far more than Paladins need Wisdom, and you can't dump Dexterity if you're starting at level 1. I'd suggest expanding Divine Grace. At 1st Charisma replaces Dexterity to AC (subject to max Dex bonus of armor). At 2nd it goes to saves. Later it could go to key skills (Ride is a good candidate) or a bunch of Dex (and even Str) rolls like Factotum, cease being subject to max Dex, or increase damage a la warmage.


I'm not sure if I want to add that much more Charisma dependency though, right now having a minor Charisma boost (+1) is all that you need. I want to avoid making it into a Sorcadin in a can, when it's intended to be a High-One Warrior Wizard that actually works together in a can. I did however add a clause that allows them to wear light armor without penalty, in a manner similar to Bards, which should clear things up, and as they get better casting ability they could theoretically wear heavy armor.



I see that you don't want to create a separate spell list, but I'd strongly encourage it. As Kamai said, it looks really weird to have a paladin cast black tentacles or such. And from a strictly meta-brew level, it's a good thing because it makes the class more unique so more people will want to try it or critique it.

True, but I'm really not a fan of fixed lists. They tend to be limiting, and in my experience almost all of the work that people do with fixed list casters involves ways to circumvent said fixed lists to add the really useful spells to them. I think it'd be better to have players limit things. Although as I said I may add some domain spells, if I can determine what domains are appropriate.



Do go over grammar and such. For the most part it's intelligible, but it makes reading it harder. "Instantaneous or swift duration stuck out and it took me a minute or so to figure out that you meant "immediate or swift casting time", and making your reader think about what you meant is never a good thing.

Grammar errors addressed! Additionally I've made some changes to Blessed Mount, so it should now be slightly better than it was before. Strictly better than a Paladin's mount I think, so I'm not sure if that's going to be horribly overpowered or not. It's still worse than an Animal Companion I believe though, but I'll have to see it in play.

Thank you for your notes! I look forward to further feedback!

Kamai
2014-08-29, 09:18 PM
True, but I'm really not a fan of fixed lists. They tend to be limiting, and in my experience almost all of the work that people do with fixed list casters involves ways to circumvent said fixed lists to add the really useful spells to them. I think it'd be better to have players limit things. Although as I said I may add some domain spells, if I can determine what domains are appropriate.


What if you were to go in the middle and give ways to add to the list as well, for example, the Warmage's Eclectic learning. The advantage of the fixed list that I'm seeing here is early access. While I think a little more on this, I noticed that you used a bit of a different progression than the 3.5 bard, which messes with the numbers I thought the access points were some. I still think that a spell list with Eclectic learning should be considered for an ACF.

General things: I like how this is ironing out. However, how does Favored Enemy (Evil) interact with Favored Enemy (creature type)?
Instantaneous is a duration, not a casting time. If this is supposed to get rid of spell failure for quick spells, it should be Immediate or Swift casting time. If this is supposed to be non-enduring spells and quick spells, you're probably looking at Swift casting time or Instantaneous duration.

I'm still going to chat at you about the side Charisma dependency. If it were just Divine Grace, it'd be really nice to have a small Charisma bonus, but it doesn't feel essential. On the other hand, Smite is also Charisma based, and since Smite is all or nothing (expended on a miss), there's a pretty big prompt to focus Charisma. How would you feel about using flat bonuses for Divine Grace and Smite's accuracy instead of Charisma modifier. My first inclination would be to replace Divine grace with something that gives Resistance bonuses to saves at 1 at 2nd + 1 every 4 levels, and Smite's extra accuracy to be 1/2 your Favored Enemy (Evil) bonus, but I'm not sure how you feel about that.

AMFV
2014-08-29, 10:14 PM
What if you were to go in the middle and give ways to add to the list as well, for example, the Warmage's Eclectic learning. The advantage of the fixed list that I'm seeing here is early access. While I think a little more on this, I noticed that you used a bit of a different progression than the 3.5 bard, which messes with the numbers I thought the access points were some. I still think that a spell list with Eclectic learning should be considered for an ACF.

Well we could write up a fixed gishy list. I'm just concerned since I don't want them to lose out on the fact that they have a lot of versatility. I'll see if I can come up with a good sized fixed list, and then we'll see how I feel about it.



General things: I like how this is ironing out.


Well that's almost entirely you guys' fault since you guys are the ones' doing the proofreading. So I won't take any credit for your good ideas improving my stuff.



However, how does Favored Enemy (Evil) interact with Favored Enemy (creature type)?

Damage and to-hit bonuses stack (since Favored Enemy normally doesn't grant to-hit bonuses) but the skill bonuses being the same type shouldn't necessarily stack.



Instantaneous is a duration, not a casting time. If this is supposed to get rid of spell failure for quick spells, it should be Immediate or Swift casting time. If this is supposed to be non-enduring spells and quick spells, you're probably looking at Swift casting time or Instantaneous duration.

I had meant to type immediate or swift casting time. I'll probably replace with "casting time less than one standard action" So third time is the charm here.



I'm still going to chat at you about the side Charisma dependency. If it were just Divine Grace, it'd be really nice to have a small Charisma bonus, but it doesn't feel essential. On the other hand, Smite is also Charisma based, and since Smite is all or nothing (expended on a miss), there's a pretty big prompt to focus Charisma. How would you feel about using flat bonuses for Divine Grace and Smite's accuracy instead of Charisma modifier. My first inclination would be to replace Divine grace with something that gives Resistance bonuses to saves at 1 at 2nd + 1 every 4 levels, and Smite's extra accuracy to be 1/2 your Favored Enemy (Evil) bonus, but I'm not sure how you feel about that.

Well the Divine Grace was supposed to be a small thing, and what I was intending was to have the smite damage be kind of the lesser point for the smite. Using it to quicken spells being the ideal use for it. Although I'd be open to a rewrite of the ability to be less Charisma focused. You should get your Favored Enemy (Evil) Bonus in any case, since you can only smite evil things. The thing I'm trying to avoid is making Charisma more than a minor stat. I might do something like have the focus be intelligence, but I'm not sure how to fluff that... It'd also result in insanely high saves.

Kamai
2014-08-30, 10:45 AM
Damage and to-hit bonuses stack (since Favored Enemy normally doesn't grant to-hit bonuses) but the skill bonuses being the same type shouldn't necessarily stack.

Fair enough on the to-hit bonuses. I'm too used to Pathfinder's Favored Enemy. On the other hand, the skill bonuses on both Ranger and Favored Enemy (Evil) are untyped, so as it is, they would stack, since you've technically called it something besides Favored Enemy. Maybe intended, but something you should keep in mind.



Well the Divine Grace was supposed to be a small thing, and what I was intending was to have the smite damage be kind of the lesser point for the smite. Using it to quicken spells being the ideal use for it. Although I'd be open to a rewrite of the ability to be less Charisma focused. You should get your Favored Enemy (Evil) Bonus in any case, since you can only smite evil things. The thing I'm trying to avoid is making Charisma more than a minor stat. I might do something like have the focus be intelligence, but I'm not sure how to fluff that... It'd also result in insanely high saves.

Except that the smite damage is not the part that scales off of Charisma. It's the Smite's bonus accuracy, which you do need to hit to be able to channel the extra spell. There's going to be a perceived Charisma reliance, on top of 4 other stats. As far as Favored Enemy (Evil), I do understand that it takes effect on a smite, but I was suggesting that the to-hit bonus be increased by half-again. At first level, it wouldn't have a to-hit bonus, but at level 2, it would add an extra +1 to-hit to smite, going up to +2 at 9, +3 at 14, and +4 at 19. I feel like that would put it on par with 12 starting Charisma, eventually working your way up with a +2->+4->+6 item as last priorities, which seems to be what you wanted. Tying it to the Favored Enemy Evil puts an implicit reminder that "This actually does have a good chance of hitting", and has a further benefit for staying in the class.

Minor Edit: You may want to clarify that that the Light Armor Casting is only for Arcane Pilgrim spells. Otherwise, this becomes a 1 level dip for a Wizard that wants to cast in light armor (maybe a 2 level dip for a Sorcerer). If you look over the Bard, that's part of the reason it's part of the spellcasting feature and not part of the proficiency feature.
Are there any classes that have heavy armor proficiency, but not basic shield proficiency? If not, is there a good reason not to give Shield proficiency? If he gets shield proficiency, should he be able to freely cast with a shield without Armored Caster?

Jeff the Green
2014-08-30, 07:38 PM
Some more comments:


True, but I'm really not a fan of fixed lists. They tend to be limiting, and in my experience almost all of the work that people do with fixed list casters involves ways to circumvent said fixed lists to add the really useful spells to them. I think it'd be better to have players limit things. Although as I said I may add some domain spells, if I can determine what domains are appropriate.

First, it wouldn't be a fixed list. Second, the reason people keep trying to find ways to add to the lists of the non-core casters is because their lists almost never get updated in other splats. Since there aren't going to be any more splats, you can cherry pick the relevant ones, exclude the inappropriate ones, and adjust levels as appropriate.

Under "Role", it's "strong suit", not "strong suite".

Spell conversion should specify prepared spells or spell slots or both.

The first two sentences of Blessed Mount should be one. Also, that ability should be clarified, possibly with an example.

I'd recommend also allowing it pick up Law Devotion.

I understand the desire to make dips feasible, but as-is there is basically no reason to go all the way through the class. You might as well truncate those last three levels. Consider a capstone that is worth staying for but also isn't so good as to make dips infeasible.

Also, I mostly agree with Kamai's comments and criticisms.