OOTS #423 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Blaznak]

Shweet stuff! I liked the Chemistry Elementals. Its one of those things that we've asked at the gaming table, ourselves.

BUT, and for this I say "You are one sharp fella, Rich" I have never seen anyone bring up the point that fire is not an "element" (as we in MODERN times understand them...)

Fun AND Informative! In-Fun-Taining...
Later!

[Fus.Weapon 1337]

Yeah! Woo! Titanium Elementals!


I can see the hombrew right now...

[AznEclipse]

Hahaha oh man, awesome. Too bad for Azure City though :[

[SquirrelKing]

Ahhh, the beauty of war!

[KewlKat]

Pssht, Redcloak is such a cheater.

I love the roach's line in the last panel.

[Darkxarth]

Best line is the Roach's. By far.

[theKOT]

Kinda meh for me. This wasn't very funny or original, and it seems like overemphasizing a plot point.

[Bluefin]

That was unexpected, but totally awesome. I too have always wondered why don't they use real elements.
Haha, take that four 'elements'.

[SquirrelKing]

See, I like outside the box thinking in siegery. It's almost like...siegery strategery. Waaaahahahaha! ...ahem...

[Grasilich]

Wicked move! Go Redcloak!

[tmacdevitt]

As a former Chem major, hats off to Redcloak!
I think there is a fallacy in lighter round objects traveling farther then heavier ones though, but Redcloak did'nt say he passed physics...

[Dolash]

He brought down the walls in the first volley? This bodes ill for the defenders. We can guess there's now five elemental-sized holes in the wall, and the wall defenders are going to be tied up fighting those big elementals for a while.

Who was it who said fortifications evened a 3-to-1 fight out? They may want to adjust their calculations.

[Nightmarenny]

.......Thats going to be a problem.


Regardless to those people who thought Xykon was to be catapulted into the tower can shut-up now(you wont, but you could)

[Shott]

Ah, chemistry. The bane of existense. How many lives and GPAs has it killed?

[starwoof]

Now I have a precedence for real elementals.

Maybe my DM will let me have a uranium elemental now.:smallbiggrin:

[fwiffo]

Didn't care for it. I think this is one of the few misses.

[Tharr]

Thanks for small 1980 music one hit wonder.

[SquirrelKing]

Who knew you were so chemical!

as long as it's not romance. :smallcool:

[Xylric]

Very Good! Well done!

I have to wonder, how many Hit Die does a Titanium Elemental have?

[Deuce]

Loved the Dolby ref. :smallsmile:

"She's tidied up and I can't find anything . . . "

[Tilian]

I'm trying so hard not to count the casualties for Azure City(five almost certain in this one!).


He brought down the walls in the first volley? This bodes ill for the defenders. We can guess there's now five elemental-sized holes in the wall, and the wall defenders are going to be tied up fighting those big elementals for a while.

I wonder how much damage those elementals could have taken from the impact(if any). Anything to even the odds.

[KillerCardinal]

Love the comment about fire not really being an element. I've always felt the same! Also, props to Redcloak for having researched his own spell!

[Nightmarenny]

He brought down the walls in the first volley? This bodes ill for the defenders. We can guess there's now five elemental-sized holes in the wall, and the wall defenders are going to be tied up fighting those big elementals for a while.

Who was it who said fortifications evened a 3-to-1 fight out? They may want to adjust their calculations.
Hopefully the convicts or the other high level character will be able to take them down before they cause to much damage.

[Black Mage]

Heh, that was bloody brilliant. Now, I would very much like the stats on the titanium elemental.

Uranium elemental...that'd be fun....

[fizzbang]

Oh, Redcloak. Intelligent cheating is the best sort of cheating. You do all goblins, kobolds, and other crafty, small, monstrous humanoids proud.

FZ!

[The Wanderer]

Oro! :smalleek:

Well, there goes the neighborhood...

[Paperfury]

That was great, heh, titanium elemental.

[DMcCoy1693]

Redcloak, You Rule!!!

[The Vorpal Tribble]

AGHHHH! Giant! Do you know what you've done?! The catgirl population will never recover...

[SquirrelKing]

You have a point, starwoof. This may open the floodgates for people requesting elementals of other...erm...elements. Like the helium elemental. Makes people float and talk like a chipmunk.

[Tharr]

The battle has no druids forget rusting casted.

[MReav]

Well, if Redcloak's going to cheat like that, then I suggest Azure City calls up the local Adamantite Dragons.

[kda]

So what's up with Redcloak's medalion in the last panel?

[SquirrelKing]

So what's up with Redcloak's medalion in the last panel?

Wow, good eye. I bet you could always find Waldo, couldn't you? ;)

[fizzbang]

So what's up with Redcloak's medalion in the last panel?

I noticed that on my second read, and I was just about to ask. Theories?

[CockroachTeaParty]

Ah ha ha!!

I'm reminded of a silver dragon....

[Orzel]

THE CATGIRLS! Noooooooooo!

Luckily D&D physics is wonky enough for that to work.

[Paperfury]

The titanium elemental took it?

[kpenguin]

Looks like Redcloak put some ranks into Knowledge (Chemistry)

Thinking about it, none of the elements in D&D are elements in the modern sense. Water is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. Fire is a chemical reaction. Air is a mixture of mostly nitrogen and oxygen. Earth is a mixture of everything you want.

[rwald]

I don't care what anyone says, this is right up there with the Cheese Shop homage as "best comic evar." Of course, air, water, and earth aren't really elements either. Air is basically 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and 1% misc.; I guess an "air elemental" is really a nitrogen elemental. Water is a compound, albeit a simple one; earth is just a mess. Anyway, this also reminds me of the plutonium dragon from the Munchkin Monster Manual.

Edit: Somewhat simulposted. Oh well.

[Jooky]

As a former Chem major, hats off to Redcloak!
I think there is a fallacy in lighter round objects traveling farther then heavier ones though, but Redcloak did'nt say he passed physics...

I don't think its a matter of the lighter object traveling farther really, I think its more of a matter of the catapults not being strong enough to throw the heavy object with the same amount of force. I mean, you could throw a beachball pretty far, but not if it were made out of lead.

[Nightmarenny]

Before we start making theories lets wait and see if Rich corrects it. Red Cloaks color changed soon enough that this may just be a forgotten upgrade.

[Wallyz]

The Problem with Uranium elementals is that after a while they decay, and then you have to summon a Thorium elemental, and then a Radon elemental, and eventually a lead elemental. Which can be defeated by a few fireballs pretty easily, and makes everyone around them act retarded.


Hey- Force=(mass)acceleration

With the same amount of force (produced by the catapult) you get greater acceleration with a less massive element. Greater acceleration=greater terminal velocity out of the catapult, and that means greater distance in the x-axis (Farther)

[Professor Tanhauser]

Now I have a precedence for real elementals.

Maybe my DM will let me have a uranium elemental now.:smallbiggrin:

Unless it was very small, your uranium elemental would either melt down or go critical mass and make a big BOOM! very quickly....

BTW, whazzup with the pricetag on redcloak's telescope?

[drewnchick]

First of all, none of the classic elements are "elements" as we know them, but that doesn't take away from the humor of the comic.
Second, a lighter object, assuming it has the same surface area (and thus the same wind resistance) WILL travel farther when acted upon by a given force (the catapult). So the Giant got his physics right.
Third, rust will have no impact upon titanium...unless you consider "magical" rusting...which apparently affects all metals, even non-ferrous ones.
Finally, this battle is getting pretty ugly. (Which, by the way, is an oxymoron.) :)

[Yogi]

Oh crap, this isn't good. Time for V to start polymorphing the defenders into Rust Monsters. I'd imagine that Titanium would be a rare delicacy for them.

[Tach13]

Very funny way to bend the rules, love the science. LoL.

[Plactus]

As a former Chem major, hats off to Redcloak!
I think there is a fallacy in lighter round objects traveling farther then heavier ones though, but Redcloak did'nt say he passed physics...

There's not. The same force applied to a lighter object creates greater acceleration, leading to greater velocities, and thus further distance traveled.

[SquirrelKing]

Earth is a mixture of everything you want.

Man, who knew I was walking on a veritable buffet of winning lottery tickets, short lines at the DMV, and breakfast cereal.

[Arya_of_Evern]

As a university science student, I must tell you that you are now one of our newest heroes. Thank you, Giant, for making chemistry worth taking again...pass the course and you get to use elementals against your enemies :D

[Jamie Fameflame]

Hehe, nice one Redcloak... Didn't see that one commng!

Neither did the poor defenders, I reckon :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Er, if they are so light, wouldn't they just... Bounce?

[Cybella]

as long as it's not romance. :smallcool:

Aren't they now The Black Parade? :smallsmile:

But I did love today's comic. Especially the roach's tribute to an obscure 80's song

[Hobot]

I like how the elemental comes with a handy label

[Tharr]

The fun element would be Lord Hinjo eat beans and make some noble gases.

[Skippy]

I would have never thought of that... Definitely, Redcloak is a great warchief. He could have been summoned by those Erfworld tools...

[J_Muller]

Science 1, Azure City 0.

[Daracaex]

I like the 1,000 GP tag on the telescope. Real subtle.

Oh, yeah. The rest of it was good too. (read: yay elementals!)

[Quixoto]

Wow...
My mind is absolutely blown by how great today's comic is.

When did Redcloak become so cool?

[King_of_GRiffins]

Woo, chalk one up for Chemistry! One of the few things I am both good at and enjoy doing. Second in line is making a mess out of special relativity, but I don't think the Lorentz Factor would fit well into any fantasy setting with teleportation. :smallfrown:



AGHHHH! Giant! Do you know what you've done?! The catgirl population will never recover...

Actually, you know, that's a fair use of Elementals. On one hand, the Five Elements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_elements_%28Chinese_philosophy%29) of classical eastern thinking does include Metal, so a titanium elemental could be justified along those grounds.

Additionally;

When summoned to the material plane, an earth elemental consist of whatever types of dirt, stone, precious metals, and gems it was conjured from.

So, if he had a supply of Titanium around, it actually works out rather nicely, and no cat-girls are harmed. Whether that's good or bad, I'm not sure...

[The Wanderer]

Wow...
My mind is absolutely blown by how great today's comic is.

When did Redcloak become so cool?

Redcloak has always been cool, he just hasn't shown us how cool he was until recently. :smallbiggrin:

[DarthMarasmus]

BTW, whazzup with the pricetag on redcloak's telescope?

The listed price in the PHB for a spyglass is 1,000 gp.

[Porthos]

I see that Redcloak has upgraded from Magnesium Elementals.

Must be a higher level spell. :smalltongue:

[lovelyluthien]

Wheeeee! Love it! Incoming artillery!
Too bad my DM still won't care about this precedent...

[Logos7]

I enjoy this,

Can't wait for the Sodium Element's to Burn the Water and give everyone Bad Heart Health.

Logos

[Keldaria]

Nice! .. while i always suspected he'd be firing mobs with the catipult, I was always leaning twords him just firing loads of hob-goblins over the walls.. never would've considered elementals.. let alone Titanium ones. All in All props to Redcloak...

oh and I DEMAND BELKAR RESPOND BY SETTING SOMETHING ON FIRE!!! .. its been too long and if theirs ever a momment to be "in dought" nows it!

[Minchandre]

Titania lodes can be found, getting the Ti out shouldn't be so hard.

By the way, Thomas Dolby says, "She blinded me with science!"

[Demented]

Not just titanium elementals... expanding titanium elementals. Goes from a medium-sized rock out of the catapult into a gargantuan-sized elemental. *whimper*

[Professor Tanhauser]

I think titanium does oxidize, most white paint and makeup contains titanium oxide as I recall.

As to the nobel gasses remark, it reminded me of Rygel on Farscape. In his case nobel gas was a real joke as he farted helium, even though it should be impossible.

BTW, had redcloak suddenly become the most intelligent and reasonable person in the series? I mean, he was quite polite to the general who questioned his firing the catapults at such range. I really think he's becoming the most polite and rational creature in the whole series.

[Euphemism]

So very wrong. I heartily approve.

[Juron Pilo]

As a former Chem major, hats off to Redcloak!
I think there is a fallacy in lighter round objects traveling farther then heavier ones though, but Redcloak did'nt say he passed physics...

When fired out of a catapult?

[chionophile]

EDIT: Er, if they are so light, wouldn't they just... Bounce?

Bounce? They're made of titanium, not rubber. Titanium balls will bounce about as much as any metal ball.

[musicnerd]

Aww, I love Redcloak. I feel sad about the soldiers, but how can I root for the downfall of such an awesome character? Impossible!
<3 :redcloak:

[LordOfNarf]

Cool!

I Love the Chemistry Elementals, Redcloak pwn everybody, not with superior pellcating ability, but with the ability to use his knwoegle of science to ustilize his spells most effectively.

[Dervag]

I'm hoping starmetal will cut titanium.

How long do you think it will be before somebody stats those puppies out?

[Mystitat]

Air is basically 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and 1% misc.; I guess an "air elemental" is really a nitrogen elemental. Water is a compound, albeit a simple one; earth is just a mess.
If you had to pick a predominent element for earth, you could go with Silicon. *shrug*

As mentioned before, Redcloak's medallion is bothering me. If the changes in jewelry were significant in the last comic, it would make sense that they are significant in this one, too. But what could Xykon have done between those panels? :smalleek:

[Tobrian]

Fire is not an element? :smalleek: And a thousand Renaissance alchemists cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced....

Aiiii!! He blinded me with science!

That Redcloak, he's such a kidder... next he'll be telling us health and personality do not depend on the five humours! :smallbiggrin:

I foresee radioactive elementals next. Uh Oh. Would radioactivity be necromantic energy? I've long entertained that notion, although my D&D group has yet to find a natural uranium deposit.

Reminds me of that one GURPS supplement (forgot the name of it) about a 20th century parallel Earth where the atom bombs of WWII and nuclear tests in Nevada and other places had created a breach in reality and where-ever the fall-out has gone to ground suddenly there were these places on Earth had that become high-magic zones in the middle of normal no-magic Earth. Of course over the next few decades society exploited the new resources industrially (although they found out that blowing up more atom bombs to make more breaches would be an....unwise thing to say the least, for reality). So by the time 21st century rolled around they had corporate wizards who summoned plastics elementals, and A.I.s.

Somehow though I think Redcloak should get a visit soon, if not from the lawyers of the Wizard Who Lives By The Coast, then from an equally dreaded creature, the Rules-Laywer, for the crime of twinking and using non-SRD material that unbalances the game. :smallwink:

No really, Redcloak can count himself lucky they're using D&D, not Mage: Sorcerer's Crusade, otherwise he'd so be hit by Paradox/Scourge.

[Parasocrates]

There's not. The same force applied to a lighter object creates greater acceleration, leading to greater velocities, and thus further distance traveled.

You're forgetting air friction. If two objects have the same shape and the same density, then the smaller one will have a higher ratio of surface area to mass, increasing the effect of air friction on it. In other words, small projectiles will slow down faster than large projectiles. The key is to find the right balance between low mass and low surface-area-to-mass.

[Shadic]

Redcloak proves how much more of a competent villain he is than like, anybody else.

Poor Azure city, though...

[SquirrelKing]

That's it!! I couldn't think of what panel 7's depiction of the elemental reminded me of! To me, the titanium elemental scene looks a lot like the Kool-Aid Man! He just begs to have a speech bubble saying "Oh Yeah!!"

[Hushdawg]

Ooooh.....
oh.... I can't BREATHE!!!!!!
:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:
You know... I was reading it along and going "Oh wow! What a neat idea!" and then...

:roach: "He Besieged me with SCIENCE!!!!"

AAAAHHHHH!!!!!!

I've got tears coming out of my eyes.. oh my sides hurt....

Somewhere Thomas Dolby's ears are burning...

I gotta get offline and find some oxygen now...

*dies laughing some more*
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::bigg rin:

[tmacdevitt]

There's not. The same force applied to a lighter object creates greater acceleration, leading to greater velocities, and thus further distance traveled.


I give you:

http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~oddharry/blide/expr.html

As a proof that lighter does not always mean farther. I concede that it can mean farther though. What can you throw farther? A baseball or a beach ball? :smallwink:

[MReav]

I'm wondering if the Elemental Shot is going to backfire. They do take falling damage after all.

[Tilian]

I have to ask: Is anyone still willing to knock O-chul for raining on Haley's parade now that the deaths are going to start piling up?

Come on, low level fighters/warriors against five of those things?

[rgoodfellow]

Very Good! Well done!

I have to wonder, how many Hit Die does a Titanium Elemental have?

Since Redcloak said they were just as strong as earth elementals only lighter I'm guessing they have just as many HD unless they've got some levels under their belt.

[DarthMarasmus]

BTW, could someone please explain the whole "catgirls" thing to me. I'm not familiar with that bit of slang.

[Elliot Kane]

Redcloak utterly rules! I have to say it :)

[Roland St. Jude]

Best line is the Roach's. By far.

Indeed. It's poetry in motion. :smallsmile:

[archon_huskie]

Fire may be a chemical reaction, but the matter of fire. The flames, the physical part is super heated gas.

[Daracaex]

You're forgetting air friction. If two objects have the same shape and the same density, then the smaller one will have a higher ratio of surface area to mass, increasing the effect of air friction on it. In other words, small projectiles will slow down faster than large projectiles. The key is to find the right balance between low mass and low surface-area-to-mass.
But then you also have to take into account inertia. A lighter object can be thrown with more force than a heavy one. Wind resistance isn't going to matter much with a giant metal boulder, even if it is 40% lighter than regular rock.

[Dentarg]

My hats off to you Giant for this comic, I haven't been entertained like this in a while.

This is like when my D&D group was discussing various other forms of elementals. I mean they don't have to be an element, but could simply be a reaction of an effect of some sort. One I heard of was a Vacuum Elemental, could you imagine such a destructive force?

Once again, excellent comic!

[Mr._Wilson]

Very cute. I wonder if I can get the stats on those things....

[rosebud]

Ouch. They're not going to be affected by your average fireballs, either:

Melting Point: 1660 °C
Boiling Point: 3287 °C

But they should have nice scrap value. :smallsmile:

For comparison, here's some other melting points:

Zinc 419
Silver 960
Gold 1063
Copper 1083
Silicon 1427
Nickle 1452
Iron 1535
Palladium 1555
Titanium 1660
Uranium 1690
Platinum 1773

A lot of the armor and walls could melt before the Ti golems do. But those in platinum armor or with platinum (poor Haley, she seems partial to gold) would be unable to move and get roasted, but they wouldn't melt. Nor diamond, with carbon coming in at 3500°C.

[brian c]

That's it!! I couldn't think of what panel 7's depiction of the elemental reminded me of! To me, the titanium elemental scene looks a lot like the Kool-Aid Man! He just begs to have a speech bubble saying "Oh Yeah!!"

Oh Yeah!!!

Awesome comic. Although I was really hoping for an explanation for Xykon's behavior in 422 so people would stop talking about it. (For the record I'd bet anything that it's a decoy to draw attention, and that the real Xykon is waiting back for a bit and maybe sneaking around)

[The Extinguisher]

Love it. Now if you excuse me, I have a DM to pester.

[SquirrelKing]

One I heard of was a Vacuum Elemental, could you imagine such a destructive force?

Somehow, I'm reminded of a scene with a certain transforming spaceship over one planet Druidia whose occupants were chanting, "Suck! Suck! Suck!" :smallbiggrin:

[Krytha]

... Redcloak's a goblin after my own heart.

[Haruki-kun]

Chemistry..... great, now I'll have nightmares, lol XD

[themightybiggun]

Hahahah, this is the first one to make me laugh out loud for a while.

:roach:He besieged me with SCIENCE!

haha, top 10!

[Jawajoey]

Okay, last time we clearly saw that the morale advantage was clearly in the hands of the hobbos, and that means grim news for Azure city. But this... crap. five frickin titanium elementals that can smash up the wall before they even get going?

Azure city is screwed.

[Wippit Guud]

I'm waiting for Azure City to start launching catapult-sized thunderstones at the approaching army. Just think of the shockwaves!

[Parasocrates]

But then you also have to take into account inertia. A lighter object can be thrown with more force than a heavy one. Wind resistance isn't going to matter much with a giant metal boulder, even if it is 40% lighter than regular rock.

Over extreme distances, wind resistance could matter, and since the catapults were firing from beyond their normal operational ranges, I'd say those elementals had to cover extreme distances. However, since it is self-evident that the elementals actually hit the wall, I will concede that the reduction in projectile mass overcame the effects of reduction of inertia in this case.

[GSFB]

I think there is a fallacy in lighter round objects traveling farther then heavier ones though, but Redcloak did'nt say he passed physics...

I majored in physics, and given a constant power potential in a catapult and a variable load, the lighter load will fly farther -- until you get so light that air resistance becomes a factor. (I'm sure someone else beat me to this, but I can't actually read every response, it's almost bedtime!)

[Turcano]

"They're not called 'reactionals,' you know."

:smallbiggrin:

[Winged One]

BTW, could someone please explain the whole "catgirls" thing to me. I'm not familiar with that bit of slang.
I'm suprised that nobody's made more than oblique references to it.

http://www.errantstory.com/comics/es20060807.jpg
Yes, I know it says "physics," not "chem."

[Wizzrobe]

Before you start arguing about fallacies in the motion, take a look at what produced it. Like that catapult has any torsion power!

[Orzel]

BTW, could someone please explain the whole "catgirls" thing to me. I'm not familiar with that bit of slang.

Catgirls: A running meme on the forums suggests that whenever someone brings up real world physics in a discussion of magic (particularly magic in an FRPG) or science fantasy "technology," a catgirl is killed. The statement "please, think of the catgirls!" is meant to deter such discussions from starting in the first place.

[caranha]

Firing elementals... that was clever :-)

[K2]

sweet, i loved chem class

[Mr Teufel]

Ooooooh! :smallannoyed: I'd be so mad at my DM if I were the OotS! :smallmad:
Smartass DMs!


Not just titanium elementals... expanding titanium elementals. Goes from a medium-sized rock out of the catapult into a gargantuan-sized elemental. *whimper*

Yeah, that is odd. And what is it with Redcloak's amulet? It keeps changing colour - first from black in 376 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) then in 414 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) it turns white, then it's white until the last panel of 423 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html), where it's black again.

And "Xykon's" wearing a new amulet, as is a demon roach in 422 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html).

[skinkatlarge]

Though the GM in me was aghast at the precedent, I got a couple good chuckles from this one.

:redcloak: They're not called "Reactionals", you know.


Reminds me of that one GURPS supplement (forgot the name of it) about a 20th century parallel Earth where the atom bombs of WWII and nuclear tests in Nevada and other places had created a breach in reality and where-ever the fall-out has gone to ground suddenly there were these places on Earth had that become high-magic zones in the middle of normal no-magic Earth. Of course over the next few decades society exploited the new resources industrially (although they found out that blowing up more atom bombs to make more breaches would be an....unwise thing to say the least, for reality). So by the time 21st century rolled around they had corporate wizards who summoned plastics elementals, and A.I.s.
GURPS Technomancer, and pretty awesome it was. Is.

[grimdirge]

LOL! Chemist here. Awesome comic.

[Pax_Chi]

Well, the classic elements were really meant to be sort of a sphere of that encompassed an entire aspect of material reality. Air represented all gases, Water represented all liquids, Earth represented all solid matter, and Fire represented most things that didn't fall into those catagories, such as fire and lightning. From a modern viewpoint that seems fairly simplistic, but it's a fairly quick and easy way to classify reality, especially to the medieval mindset.

This does bring up the question of A) Would a medieval world have advanced chemisty? and B) Would said world have Titanium in the first place?

Is there now an elemental plane of Titanium? Because if so I want to visit the Elemental plane of Gold and make some cash. But avoid the Phosphorus Plane at all costs.

[Nightmarenny]

I'm suprised that nobody's made more than oblique references to it.

http://www.errantstory.com/comics/es20060807.jpg
Yes, I know it says "physics," not "chem."
Why is it that when ever someone does make the annoying refferences that should be avoided, someone shows up with a "I can't believe no one mentioned this before."

Its a thread for a reason people. Read. It.

[MrPhoenix]

well, that's it. god forgive me, but i hope they win.
go, redcloak! w00t!

i wonder if the giant would bother to let me have his child.

[Paperfury]

hmm, notice how Redcloak's medallion only disappears after he looks into his telescope? Maybe it's just that.

[TerraNova]

Meh... not my favorite. Not even close to the awesomeness of the last few ones. The joke's really done to death by munchkin players by now.

Worst thing is that quite a few players actually try to pull boop like this. Well, anyway, Xycon summed up the strip pretty well:

:xykon: Meh, they can't all be winners

[Pax_Chi]

Firing elementals... that was clever :-)

Agreed. I love the idea of magic being applied cleverly to seige warfare. You'd think that in a world of high magic, it would play a large part in all major military conflicts.

[Isomenes]

Yes, I know it says "physics," not "chem."

Well, chemistry's really just a specialized branch of physics anyway :)

Redcloak++ for this comic!

[Yellow]

Redcloak is a nerd.

[Jazzvader]

Rich as usual you rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cruiser1]

One I heard of was a Vacuum Elemental, could you imagine such a destructive force?
I want to summon an Antimatter Elemental! :smallbiggrin: That should be the ultimate in destructive power. It only lasts one round before reacting with all the positive matter around it and exploding, so you probably want to summon it as far away from you as possible. Like say under the effects of Time Stop so you can Teleport to the opposite side of the planet before it goes off! :smallwink:

[Darkxarth]

Why is it that when ever someone does make the annoying refferences that should be avoided, someone shows up with a "I can't believe no one mentioned this before."

Its a thread for a reason people. Read. It.

He was explaining it to someone else.

It's a thread for a reason. Read it.

[Nightmarenny]

Redcloak is a nerd.
I wouldn't talk that way about a guy that can have sentient peices of very hard metal beat your ass.

[Winged One]

Why is it that when ever someone does make the annoying refferences that should be avoided, someone shows up with a "I can't believe no one mentioned this before."

Its a thread for a reason people. Read. It.

I said "no more than oblique references." I had read the references themselves in this thread, but none of them were enough for someone who had never encounted the meme before to extrapolate the entire thing from.

[Nightmarenny]

He was explaining it to someone else.

It's a thread for a reason. Read it.
I was talking about the guy I quoted. Who was not explaining it.

Its a thread for a reason Read. It.

[Nightmarenny]

I said "no more than oblique references." I had read the references themselves in this thread, but none of them were enough for someone who had never encounted the meme before to extrapolate the entire thing from.
Yeah I noticed that after posting. Its like the rule that if you correct someone on spelling you will mis-spell something in the same post.

[Mr Teufel]

I wouldn't talk that about a guy that can have sentient peice of very hard metal beat your ass.

Hey, I think it's a compliment!

[Aerysil]

If I traded in a 2000gp longsword +1 and only got two 1000gp telescopes, I think at least one of them would be used as a pummeling device.

[Wikkin]

Redcloak is my hero.

[Yellow]

I wouldn't talk that about a guy that can have sentient peice of very hard metal beat your ass.

talk that ahahahahaha

[Winged One]

I was talking about the guy I quoted. Who was not explaining it.

Its a thread for a reason Read. It.
Well, I thought the image that it originated from would be enough to understand it.

[Legendary]

This would be funnier if there weren't a VERY similar joke in No Cure for the Paladin Blues.

And if another webcomic I previously, ADVENTURERS!, hadn't had collecting the 100+ elemental relics as part of its plot.

The roach was the most amusing part, I think.

[Flak_Razorwill]

Weaponized Elemental Ideas:

Tungsten (Heavy, Cancer)
Depleted Uranium (Heavy, Pyrophoric, Possibly Poisonous)
25.3% Aluminum and 74.7% Iron Oxide (Burns well)
Plutonium (Critical mass+extra particles= XP)
Chlorine? (WWI Poisonous gas)

At this point, an entire den of sleeping catgirls was hit with 10,000 gallons of napalm.

[Nightmarenny]

talk that ahahahahaha
"have sentient piece of metal beat you ass"hahahahah:smallbiggrin:

[Golem]

See that? That, boys, girls, and oozes, is what I call top-grade planning. It's becoming more and more evident Redcloak is no amateur at this--he's serious. That's the sort of planning and execution I like to see from villians: while Xycon is humorous, and all, I think Redcloak deserves serious kudos.

In fact, you know what? I think--this is, of course, personal opinion--Redcloak just proved himself a more competent tactician than Xycon or even Nale. It's become very a very personal fight to my favorite villanous goblinoid, and he's showing more and more ability.

...And 'Beseiged me with SCIENCE' is my new favorite line, ever.

[Ravens_Wing]

OH WOW!..... Well I have always said that Chemistry was evil. I guess that this just proves that it can be put to evil uses...lol

Love the 1000pg price tag on the scope. I aways did think that that was a lil over priced.

But WOW I am Sooooo going to have to use elementals as siege ammo now!

Players beware the Giant has given All of the DMs outthere yet another thing to throw at our goody twoshoes Adventurers. *Insert Evil Laugh here*

Ahem.. yes this strip is yet another work of Art. Great job!

[Yellow]

"have sentient piece of metal beat you ass"hahahahah:smallbiggrin:
wait wut ahahahaha

[Wizzardman]

Darn you, Giant! How many more catgirls will you kill in your quest for ultimate humor? How many more, you... horrendously witty person...

Seriously. Titanium elementals. This comic has officially gained even more cool points than it already had.

...Unfortunately, chemistry and physics are too similar for D&D rules to handle. You've doomed thousands of cat-things to be slaughtered for your metal-ementals.

[Evil_Pacifist]

Oh dear.

Things do not look rosy for the Blue Guys.

[Skydancer]

Thanks for small 1980 music one hit wonder.

Hey! Thomas Dolby is alive and kicking! :smallwink:

[2 Eyed Cyclops]

I like the homage to 'She blinded me with science! (She blinded him, with science!)'

[MReav]

Okay, Redcloak, if you're going to break out the science content, then explain to me how a quasi-medieval society knows about Titanium, when Titanium wasn't discovered until the late 18th century?

[Alex Kidd]

Same way they got Airships and Cliffport. Swordpunk and magic.

Awesome, Go Redcloak!

Durkon so needs to be able to summon a Thorium Elemental, that would make a Uranium one look like a *****.

[itliaf]

Nice to see he paid full price for that spyglass. If I ever need a surrogate father for a half-goblin monstrosity, Redcloak's my go-to guy. David Bowie is now my backup.

[Haruspex]

Considering how much magic power Xykon's army has, I guess normal boulders just wouldn't cut it.

[Helgraf]

Okay, Redcloak, if you're going to break out the science content, then explain to me how a quasi-medieval society knows about Titanium, when Titanium wasn't discovered until the late 18th century?

Because magic makes everything easier. Lenses of minute seeing and stuff like that allow for advances that optics wouldn't come by for some time later, just to give one example.

[ref]

This would be funnier if there weren't a VERY similar joke in No Cure for the Paladin Blues.
I disagree. It's made funnier because of the NCftPB joke with Magnesium Elemental. bwahaha.

Great job, Giant.

[Avicenex]

Concerning elementals, I've always seen them as representation of states of matter. Earth = Solid, Water = Liquid, Air = Gas, Fire = Plasma.

High quality comic though.

[Bobbis]

Unless it was very small, your uranium elemental would either melt down or go critical mass and make a big BOOM! very quickly....

Sorry about this, but I feel the need to chime in even though this was 4 pages ago. I'm a nuclear engineer up at RPI, and just a few quick notes for the betterment of nuclear knowledge.

A) Critical Mass is a good thing, it means the reaction is self sustaining without going out of control; neutrons produced / neutrons absorbed = 1. This is actually ideal. The bad thing is for a reactor to go supercritical.

B) If it was uranium just pulled up from the ground, it wouldn't even do that; natural uranium is practically useless for nuclear reactors as it's less then 1% U235, the part that actually does the fission reactions. U238 (which is most of natural uranium) while still radioactive, requires much more energy and has a relatively low chance of fissioning.

This has been a bulletin from the resident Nuclear Engineer, thank you for your time.

Pop Quiz: How many people died in/from/because of Three Mile Island?

0

[Haruspex]

kuWONNNNNNG!

So that's what a firing catapult sounds like. Very educational strip.

[Tleilaxu_Ghola]

As a former Chem major, hats off to Redcloak!
I think there is a fallacy in lighter round objects traveling farther then heavier ones though, but Redcloak did'nt say he passed physics...
You would be right if the initial velocity was identical for both heavy and light masses, however it's most likely that the catapault system stores a fixed amount of energy and then acts on the elemental. From the looks of it he's using Onagers (tortion based catapults), so energy is stored in the tortion of the ropes. Once the catapault is released, the energy is transfered. If the initial energy is G, then

v = (2kG/m)^(1/2)

where v = velocity, k = some constant of proportionality relating to the amount of energy lost in the transfer of potential energy to kinetic energy, and m is the mass. What's important here is the fact that velocity is inversely proportional to the square root of the mass, meaning the more mass the lower the velocity.

So I'd say Redcloak passed physics just fine... you on the other hand...

[Jagg]

Sorry about this, but I feel the need to chime in even though this was 4 pages ago. I'm a nuclear engineer up at RPI, and just a few quick notes for the betterment of nuclear knowledge.

A) Critical Mass is a good thing, it means the reaction is self sustaining without going out of control; neutrons produced / neutrons absorbed = 1. This is actually ideal. The bad thing is for a reactor to go supercritical.

B) If it was uranium just pulled up from the ground, it wouldn't even do that; natural uranium is practically useless for nuclear reactors as it's less then 1% U235, the part that actually does the fission reactions. U238 (which is most of natural uranium) while still radioactive, requires much more energy and has a relatively low chance of fissioning.

This has been a bulletin from the resident Nuclear Engineer, thank you for your time.

Pop Quiz: How many people died in/from/because of Three Mile Island?

0

Not that I'm a rabid greenie or anything Bobbis, but answer me this....


How many people could have died had circumstances been worse? IE if that question was Chernobyl would your answer have been different?

[Ronfar]

That reminds me of this strip in another comic:

http://www.adventurers-comic.com/d/20011112.html

[erewhon]

Man....

I've always felt that Azure City was a goner, ever since the Oracle told Roy which gate AFTER this one he'd be at next, but this is not going so good, way early.

First, Azure City loses it's respected if loony ruler on the eve of the battle, throwing the city into political chaos. (Thanks, Miko!)


Second, Azure City is rent with internal politics and a notable portion of its fighting strength withdrew from the field.

Third, a certain helpful adventurer managed to accidentally crush morale, while Redcloak has his troops walking on air.

Fourth, Redcloak has managed to pull of the nigh-impossible feat of gaining tactical surprise as the beseiger of a city. You know how hard that is? He got in the first hit and breached the walls with one go.

Fifth, the second and third most powerful figures in the encroaching bad guy army are not evident. Xykon riding his undead dragon are out there SOMEWHERE. Expect a decapitating strike soon.


Sixth, Redcloak has a massive reserve weapon standing patiently right next to him. The MITD is a potent force all by himself, who could probably reduce the walls to rubble while complaining about all the arrows tickling him.


Seventh, Redcloak seems to have a successful decoy plan in the works. Who wants to wager "Xycon's" new necklace explodes?"


Man. Lookin' bad for the blue folks. :(

[K'tai]

Oh that was only a million kinds of freaking awesome.

[Hannes]

The lighter object would fly less if the light object was ridiculously small compared to the size of the catapult. Let's say a ballpoint pen.

[denelian]

i fought a steel elemental (well, para elemental, IIRC)
well, my CHARACTER once fought a steel [para?]elemental

[vanyell]

destruction, and catgirl slaying all in one great comic. thanks giant

[erewhon]

Not that I'm a rabid greenie or anything Bobbis, but answer me this....


How many people could have died had circumstances been worse? IE if that question was Chernobyl would your answer have been different?


First, Bobbis is right. Unmoderated natural U has no critical mass. You need 550 kilos of U235 per cubic meter to go critical and natural U only has 133 kilos U235 per cubic meter. Just don't dunk it in water. :D


Second, the Chernobyl reactor was a totally different design than TMI. Civilian-opeated, water-cooled, graphite moderated reactors with positive void co-efficients are insanely dangerous and the US sensibly never built one. The Soviets, on the other hand, didn't give a damn.


Third, TMI did not hurt or kill anyone. Duh?


Fourth, why don't we talk about comic books rather than reactor physics? :D Go Thog!

[Bobbis]

Not that I'm a rabid greenie or anything Bobbis, but answer me this....


How many people could have died had circumstances been worse? IE if that question was Chernobyl would your answer have been different?

If questions are just that, because of how the plant was constructed more people didn't die. The people in the control room of TMI actually received system warnings before the problems occurred but assumed it was a technical glitch; due to quick reactions and redundant measures everything was able to be contained. So, unless people had gone out of their way to make it worse, it couldn't have been worse; but on to your other point.

Chernobyl; not a great day in the history of nuclear engineers. There are many safeguards in place to make sure nothing like that will ever happen again; in fact safeguards were in place before that in America. Unfortunately the fact is the Russians didn't really know what they were doing.

Rather then derail this topic into a debate about nuclear power; I will merely point you in the direction of wikipedia*, the article is fairly accurate to my knowledge, and the causes section is the most important to understand what went wrong.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

[SquirrelKing]

*weeps for the Catgirl population even more

(but I have to admit, it's fascinating)

[dragoncmd]

science rules!

[EdgarVerona]

Aye, awesome comic. =)

Hmm... indeed, someone seems to have already pointed out what I was about to say (about how it is likely that a lighter material would've been shot further using said catapult).

There was another comment made about how a much smaller object (such as a pen) wouldn't have been shot further. Everyone possibly already knows this, but just in case people didn't the only reason a pen wouldn't fly further is because of wind resistance against it in this situation. In a vacuum, the pen would've flown much further (if the theory that the catapult's potential energy is not derived as a factor of the mass attached to it is correct, as an earlier poster pointed out).

Most of you probably already knew that, but I figured I'd throw my hat into helping with the scientific theoreticals in case some didn't know.

[erewhon]

*weeps for the Catgirl population even more

(but I have to admit, it's fascinating)


LOL!

Hey, it's a science-nerdery strip. Just be glad I'm not pouting about how Redcloak should have summoned Vanadium Elementals because the specific strength of Vanadium is better than Titanium. :D

Or speculating how hot a Plutonium-238 Elemental would be..... :D

Or a Diamond Elemental, because structural damond is theoretically TEH AWESOEM. :D

[Turcano]

Or a Diamond Elemental, because structural damond is theoretically TEH AWESOEM. :D

Isn't that a troll king?

[Icewalker]

awesome. Just awesome. I believe I speak for many when I say go Redcloak go! I'm hoping we get at least a tiny bit of look into Redcloak's background, something involving Azure City when he was younger.

[Cancermage]

I liked this one! I always thought there weren't enough golem types:P

[Zeb The Troll]

Second, the Chernobyl reactor was a totally different design than TMI. Civilian-opeated, water-cooled, graphite moderated reactors with positive void co-efficients are insanely dangerous and the US sensibly never built one. The Soviets, on the other hand, didn't give a damn.

Third, TMI did not hurt or kill anyone. Duh?I think you may have missed the point of Jagg's re-question. The implication from Bobbis's post was that nuclear reactors aren't as bad as people make them out to be (at least that's how I read it) and then provided anecdotal evidence to support this assertion. Jagg, on the other hand, was just reminding people that, while Three Mile Island, fortunately, caused no casualties, this does not mean that nuclear power is "safe". It just means that, for any number of reasons, the US's disaster was averted while the USSR's was not.

Nitpick:
The location of the disaster is in the Ukraine, which at the time was part of the Soviet Union for you youngsters out there. The Ukraine is not a part of Russia. It is a country unto itself. So no matter how you look at it, the disaster had nothing to do with "the Russians". *Erewhon, I realize you used the appropriate term. I'm just mentioning this because it is a common mistake to use Soviet and Russian interchangeably.
Frankly, from my viewpoint, neither should be held up as an example for either side of the debate. They should simply be examples of "what went right" and "what went wrong" so that we can all learn from it because regardless of anyone's feelings on the topic, reactors exist and more will likely be built somewhere in the world, if not by us.

[Ave]

Bah, titanium elementals :(

How the heck did he refine titanium in such quantities?
Besides, if science is so advanced how magic works?

Definitely the least liked strip for me.

[MandoFTR]

He just killed a couple catgirls.

[Lostboy]

Hooray for '80s music references from demon roaches! Laugh-out-loud hilarious!

[Arya]

Am I the only one that realizes that a titanium elemental would be heavier that a elemental made up of e.g. granite? It would be lighter than an equivalent elemental made of iron or steel, of course.

Titanium has a density of 4.506  g/cm³
Iron has a density of 7.86 g/cm³
The average density of granite is 2.75 g/cm³ with a range of 1.74 g/cm³ to 2.80 g/cm³.
Silicon dioxide (sand, most common compound in "Earth", I guess) has an average density of 2.33 g/cm³
(all numbers from wikipedia, since I don't have those tables here at work)

The ghost of science classes past haunts me.

[baerdith]

Mmm - it's poetry in motion! :smallsmile:

[B9anders]

Redcloak's medallion looks the same as when he talked with Xykon about tactics in front of teevo, so whatver change there may have been, I don't think it is related to "Xykon's" sudden change of character.

[Sebastian]

You have a point, starwoof. This may open the floodgates for people requesting elementals of other...erm...elements. Like the helium elemental. Makes people float and talk like a chipmunk.

That' s nothing, you mix magic and science and all hell break loose, just to start Xykon and the undead part of his army just crumbled into a pile of old bones because undead are powered by negative energy and negative energy DOES NOT EXIST. and let's not even start with teleports or fly or even the old fireball (conservation of energy, anyone) It is just me, but I don't find jokes about magic particolary funny, thi s together with the "power word" one is one of the weakest IMHO.

[baerdith]

Thanks for small 1980 music one hit wonder.

Hey, Dolby had Many hits!! Everything on The Gate to the Mind's Eye was a hit!

[warmachine]

That was funny.

If anyone wonders why a metal that's as strong as steel but lighter isn't widely used in real life. It's far less common than iron and, thus, very expensive. It tends to be reserved for military aircraft and tanks.

[V Junior]

'Cuz, from where I'm sitting, I'm worried...

WHY AZURE CITY IS IN TROUBLE:
a. ruler killed on eve of battle
b. low morale
c. titainium elementals
d. a lich riding a zombie dragon :smalleek:
e. most powerful paladin (not anymore, though) in jail
f. potential problem: does :belkar: still have the MoJ?

Not good.

Also, there's the problem of RC betraying Xykon (this may release the MitD)!

[Hannes]

Nitpick:
The location of the disaster is in the Ukraine, which at the time was part of the Soviet Union for you youngsters out there. The Ukraine is not a part of Russia. It is a country unto itself. So no matter how you look at it, the disaster had nothing to do with "the Russians". *Erewhon, I realize you used the appropriate term. I'm just mentioning this because it is a common mistake to use Soviet and Russian interchangeably.


Point overruled. The disaster happened not because of low safety standards, but because the Russian owner of the plant didn't care to notify anyone.

[Illsbane]

Redcloak is racking up the cool points like nobody's business ... o_o

[Niveus Candidus]

The price tag hanging off the spyglass will never get old.

[Demented]

Science is a method of observation and study, not an absolute definition of reality. It can be applied easily to dnd magic.


Am I the only one that realizs that a titanium elemental would be heavier that a elemental made up of e.g. granite? It would be lighter than an equivalent elemental made of iron or steel, of course.

Maybe Rich was thinking of an aluminum elemental.
Earth elementals weigh from 50,000 to 60,000 pounds and are about 32-40 feet in height.

[Hannes]

Am I the only one that realizes that a titanium elemental would be heavier that a elemental made up of e.g. granite? It would be lighter than an equivalent elemental made of iron or steel, of course.

Titanium has a density of 4.506  g/cm³
Iron has a density of 7.86 g/cm³
The average density of granite is 2.75 g/cm³ with a range of 1.74 g/cm³ to 2.80 g/cm³.
Silicon dioxide (sand, most common compound in "Earth", I guess) has an average density of 2.33 g/cm³
(all numbers from wikipedia, since I don't have those tables here at work)

The ghost of science classes past haunts me.

But point is, granite breaks much more easily.

[Baris]

Hmm. This is one of the strips that didn't do it for me. Well, there's, like, 5 out of 423 that's in the same category, so it's OK. (well, it's a whole lot better than OK, actually.)

Excellent work in general, Giant. You are a cult hero and shall be remembered as long as the DnD game lives. But real life stuff is better left in real life, methinks.

[AK-00]

I've got to say, I'm acquiring a new respect for our Mr. Cloak. That's some nice thinking, there.


I have to ask: Is anyone still willing to knock O-chul for raining on Haley's parade now that the deaths are going to start piling up?

Come on, low level fighters/warriors against five of those things?

(Raises a hand)
Present.
The whole point of raising morale is so your troops will stand and fight when they don't stand a chance. Don't forget, these guys are cannon-fodder. It's their job to get slaughtered en masse, wearing down a superior opponent. They can't do that if they're bricking themselves with fear. They have to believe they have a chance, even if they don't.


Okay, Redcloak, if you're going to break out the science content, then explain to me how a quasi-medieval society knows about Titanium, when Titanium wasn't discovered until the late 18th century?

To be fair, natural philosophers in the medieval period didn't have the option of just summoning an Earth Elemental and saying; "So! Metals. Talk to me."

[Illsbane]

Nor did they have access to high-level divination spells with which to study the nature of the universe and its materials.

[fractal]

I have a different point. Why aren't those elementals destroyed? A castle wall has many many more hp than any non-epic character or monster; smashing through one should absolutely destroy the creature so hurled (assuming that equal damage is assigned to both smasher and smashee, as falling damage, etc, typically is).

[happyturtle]

Little Halberd Girl didn't make it very long, did she?:smallfrown:

At least we can't blame Elan for her demise. She didn't stand a chance.

[Hannes]

Damage. Reduction. For. The. Titanium. Elemental.

[Illsbane]

Redcloak could have hit his 'draftees' up with a couple of protective spells, I suppose. That and they have the energy of their momentum added to their innate powers - maybe titanium elementals have a version of earth mastery that allows them to survive such an impact?

[Fingolfin]

Go Titans! :smallbiggrin: Excellent humour! :smallsmile:

[Cancermage]

So... did anyone figure out redcloak's medallion?

[Estelindis]

Well, the Azurians are stung. Poor guys! Looks like this battle is going to follow the tried and tested model of good guys getting screwed lots before anything positive (hopefully!) happens. :smallfrown: But maybe not; we'll see.

I find that I can't get over my distaste at Redcloak's "cheating". From our point of view, of course, he's right (apart from the fact that a lighter hurled object shouldn't make an much of an impact of the wall - but, as tmacdevitt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=3329) pointed out, that would be physics, and at least it would have *some* impact - maybe enough), but somehow it feels wrong. Surely, in Order of the Stick world, fire really *is* an element (just like characters have hit points, ability scores, etc). This just doesn't seem internally consistent.

Oh well, I guess you can't win 'em all - not everyone will like every comic. I look forward to the next one anyway. :smallsmile:

[Dread]

I'm afraid I have to agree with those who say this comic is not what we're used to from Rich. Well, even a genius can't always be brilliant it seems.
Looking forward to the next comic.

[Martichoras]

I have been enjoying the current sequence a lot. In the current strip, I particularily liked the impact of the titanium elemental. It is incredible how expressive stick figure drawings can be. Redcloak is definitely my favourite villain in OotS.

Bringing real world chemistry into a fantasy setting... Claims regarding chemistry seems to be the runner up after physics for breaking verisimilitude and derailing gaming sessions... That's why I make it very clear that my fantasy world is composed of five elements, and that there is no oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen, just the element of air, nor is there electricity or gravity, just Aristotelean teleology (there are no germs either, spirits of disease and humoral inbalances make you ill).

As Mr. Burlew set himself up for this (and won't read my post anyway, so he won't be inconvenienced by it): I am fairly certain that torsion-powered artillery built from wood couldn't possibly launch anything the size of a titanium elemental, though it would probably be possible with a trebuchet or mangonel. Of course, it is possible that you could build stronger catapults from darkwood and similar substances, but then you are leaving the chemistry lessons behind.

[fractal]

Damage. Reduction. For. The. Titanium. Elemental.
If they would be taking thousands of damage smashing through a castle wall, but instead they survive, how much damage reduction do they HAVE?

Similarly, I don't know what spell or protective ability could help, other than one that says "can't be harmed by non-magic stone" or some such. That would be a pretty unusual ability.

[Glorfindel]

If they would be taking thousands of damage smashing through a castle wall, but instead they survive, how much damage reduction do they HAVE?Maybe their damage reduction is not expressed in points, but in percentages instead. Like Gold Golems in Heroes3, they had 95% magic damage reduction.

[Pvednes]

Yes!

Redcloak is now my (anti?) hero.

[Cancermage]

If they would be taking thousands of damage smashing through a castle wall, but instead they survive, how much damage reduction do they HAVE?

Similarly, I don't know what spell or protective ability could help, other than one that says "can't be harmed by non-magic stone" or some such. That would be a pretty unusual ability.

The golem either has damage reduction or the hardness equivalent higher than that of the stone, meaning that when it makes a break attempt on the wall with it's strength and the added force of the catapult, it suffers NO damage. Case-in-point: you can beat a rock against titanium all day as hard as possible. It will NEVER do anything other than break the rock. Now how about the medallion?

[Vargtass]

This is like when my D&D group was discussing various other forms of elementals. I mean they don't have to be an element, but could simply be a reaction of an effect of some sort. One I heard of was a Vacuum Elemental, could you imagine such a destructive force?


Vacuum isn't really a tremendous destructive force. Under normal circumstances, you cannot apply more than one atmosphere underpressure with it. Unless a large area is evacuated (i.e space) there will be sufficent mass of air close by to "refill". You could suffer from pressure rise (diver's sickness) and die from it, and you could suffer from suffocation. Not extremely powerful in a destructive sense, I think.



Or a Diamond Elemental, because structural damond is theoretically TEH AWESOEM. :D


Ouch. They're not going to be affected by your average fireballs, either:

(Snip!)

A lot of the armor and walls could melt before the Ti golems do. But those in platinum armor or with platinum (poor Haley, she seems partial to gold) would be unable to move and get roasted, but they wouldn't melt. Nor diamond, with carbon coming in at 3500°C.

While diamond is indeed an extraordinary material (hardness, heat conduction, index of refraction, etc) it is not particulary heat resistant. Diamond is a meta-stable phase of pure carbon that will reform to graphite if heated over about 800-900 degrees Celsius.

Graphite, on the other hand, is not particulary strong, but do melt at 3500 degrees. It will react with the air gases long before that, though, especially with oxygen (burning).

[Hannes]

Well.. I guess the inside of the medallion looked like glass to me, so I suppose we're dealing with a case of "Put the lens in the spyglass before it works!"?

[Vargtass]

If they would be taking thousands of damage smashing through a castle wall, but instead they survive, how much damage reduction do they HAVE?

Similarly, I don't know what spell or protective ability could help, other than one that says "can't be harmed by non-magic stone" or some such. That would be a pretty unusual ability.

Isn't there a cap on falling damage?

[fractal]

The golem either has damage reduction or the hardness equivalent higher than that of the stone, meaning that when it makes a break attempt on the wall with it's strength and the added force of the catapult, it suffers NO damage.
First, creatures don't normally get hardness (for good reason, hardness is far too good). Second, I would treat being fired from a catapult as similar to falling; you don't get to control it.

Case-in-point: you can beat a rock against titanium all day as hard as possible. It will NEVER do anything other than break the rock. Now how about the medallion?
Untrue. If you swing the rock with enough force, you'll dent or break the titanium. Example: a soft lead bullet can penetrate a hard steel breastplate (so much for historical armor).

Or another perspective: Could Miko damage a titanium elemental with an unarmed strike? Her fists are (in general) less hard than stone.

[fractal]

Isn't there a cap on falling damage?
Yeah, 20d6. However, clearly the elementals are hitting the walls far harder than that, in order to break through so many feet of stone. This can possibly be explained by the fact that they were not dropped, but instead thrown.

Probably the real issue here is that the walls just shouldn't break so easily, because D&D stone has too many hp (to prevent adventurers chopping through it like butter).

[Iranon]

Actually, titanium is a very common metal. What's keeping the price up is the comparatively difficult extraction and manufacturing processes.

First off, congratulations to Redcloak for being a complete and utter dork in the best possible way. I don't really consider that cheesy:

A Titanium Elemental is legit variant of an Earth Elemental. Normally, the summoner wouldn't give a toss about weight or density and therefore there wouldn't be a reason to go for titanium specifically. It might be considered a good choice for use as a 'smart artillery round' if we assume that elementals of a stronger material will be smaller at a given HD value (as people above have outlined, low volume is possibly more important than low weight).

In a world with a rich magical and alchemic tradition, titanium might be well known - it's common, and titanium elementals will have cropped up by accident. Inquisitive wizards and scholars might well have researched it.
At the same time, magical craftsmanship seems inferior to that of a skilled smith (high-grade magical weapons are usually forged, not Fabricated), and titanium would be very difficult to refine or shape in a mundane way. Also, pure titanium is rather soft and unexciting (the material we know and love is an alloy) and I expect metallic elementals to come without additives. Given the limited mundane forms of working with it, titanium might be well known but serve little practical use in most circumstances, and Redcloak deserves double credit for making great use of an obscure and generally useless material.

Even if the appropriate alloys were available, they might remain obscure - steel is the superior choice for blades and that's where the publicity is at. It might be a good choice for armour though. On the other hand... it would be obscure and quasi-magical because it requries exotic processing, and the existing magical materials would be superior. It could be speculated that mithril is in fact titanium... some things point in that direction like lightness and resistance to corrosion but being produced from ore rather than found pure. The use of it for generally superior blades speaks against it; if anything it would be used where corrosion is a factor - in jungle kingdoms, against acid-spitting beetles, hunting down ROUS in the fire swamp, that sort of thing.

Curse you for your geekiness, Redcloak - and me for my need to outgeek everyone else!

[Hannes]

Oh Yeah!!!

Awesome comic. Although I was really hoping for an explanation for Xykon's behavior in 422 so people would stop talking about it. (For the record I'd bet anything that it's a decoy to draw attention, and that the real Xykon is waiting back for a bit and maybe sneaking around)

Um. He's watching TV with Teevo, I actually should say.

[Alfryd]

I quite liked this one, actually.


Because magic makes everything easier. Lenses of minute seeing and stuff like that allow for advances that optics wouldn't come by for some time later, just to give one example.
Yeah, but in that case it's likely such crude and feeble instruments as morningstars and longbows would have been rendered obsolete by advanced firearms or, heck, plasma rifles, a good 200 years back. Or that the evolution of life as we know would have been rendered impossible.
Gah! Don't start.

Or a Diamond Elemental, because structural damond is theoretically TEH AWESOEM.

Diamond is a meta-stable phase of pure carbon that will reform to graphite if heated over about 800-900 degrees Celsius.
Actually diamond just *burns*. It's only carbon, folks, just a fancier kinda charcoal. You can take a blowtorch to 'em and wave farewell to the family jewels.

I should just point out that water is not a mixture, it's a compound. And none of that ionic crap either, covalent.

If they would be taking thousands of damage smashing through a castle wall, but instead they survive, how much damage reduction do they HAVE?
Excellent point. I insist on running the next session. I think I we can all agree it's in the general interest. Sorry, Rich, I'd hoped it wouldn't come to this, but you forced my hand.
C'mon.
Come on.
Hand over the character sheets. And the plot desciption (may have to make a few alterations, nothing fancy...) Where are you going! Come back here, young man!
Don't make me come over there.


Man. Lookin' bad for the blue folks. :(
True enough.

Don't forget, these guys are cannon-fodder. It's their job to get slaughtered en masse, wearing down a superior opponent.
Uh... no. It's their job to kill enough of the enemy that they realise they can't take the city without coming damn close to annihalation themselves, and back off. And O-chul didn't berate the troops, he berated Haley for failing to take things seriously, which could get her killed.
Elan did vastly, vastly, vastly, inordinately more damage. But nobody's ticked off with him.
I mean, really, even with his int penalties, Elan must have picked up by now that his childish, irresponsible, self-indulgent antics usually wind up hurting everyone he cares about. I am getting very, very tired of this 'oh, but he's only a child' attitude that all and sundry seem to take toward him. He isn't- he's a grown man who has to take responsibility for his actions. If not, you sure as hell don't bring a child into a dungeon with you.

[Doompuppy]

That reminds me of this strip in another comic:

http://www.adventurers-comic.com/d/20011112.html

Was just about to post that link myself... good thing I read through all of the posts on the thread and didn't figure 'good enough' after page five.

Whoever said science made life easier? =)

[Antina]

Hombre! Redcloak Really Rocks! Or titaniumarises??? ;-)

[Adeptus]

If they would be taking thousands of damage smashing through a castle wall, but instead they survive, how much damage reduction do they HAVE?

Similarly, I don't know what spell or protective ability could help, other than one that says "can't be harmed by non-magic stone" or some such. That would be a pretty unusual ability.

It looks like the wall is just damaged, not breached. The walls of Azure City are like the walls of Troy (in the movie, that is), absolutely huge. The elemental(s) just crunched the top part a bit.

There's an elemental theme'd bonus strip in "No Cure for the Paladin Blues" also. Having read that made this one funnier also.

Also points for a good pun on the strip name :smallsmile:

[OrigamiWolf]

Am I the only one that realizes that a titanium elemental would be heavier that a elemental made up of e.g. granite? It would be lighter than an equivalent elemental made of iron or steel, of course.
No, it's not just you. I checked up the relevant numbers elsewhere too:

http://www.mininglife.com/Miner/general/Density.htm

Most of the stuff there have densities less than that of titanium (~4507 kg/m^3).

So for elementals of the same volume, the titanium ones will be more massive and, assuming g is the same for both earth and titanium, heavier as well.

[phlip]

Hmm, Frudu made an appearance not that long ago, and now the elementals... yay for bonus jokes from the books making it into the mainstream :D

[Delgarde]

Redcloak is a nerd.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html

:xykon: Have you analyzed those gate locations I deciphered?
:redcloak: Yes sir, I have them right here on color-coded parchments.
:xykon: Wow, you really are a dork, aren't you?

You were saying? :)

[Professor Tanhauser]

Maybe he should have used beryllium elementals. They're way lighter than titanium and pure beryllium is incredibly strong.

[Professor Tanhauser]

BTW, I know next to nothing about D&D and can't seem to edit my posts now for some strange reason, but if redcloak wanted to make the projectile from catapults go further couldn't he have case featherfall on them? I remember that spell from some OotS refs, like when V used it to save the party and when a wizard bitched about getting yet another one in his 'booster pack".

I guess it's a common spell, and it makes things lighter, so maybe you could cast it on bolders being launched form catapults and make them go farther.

[Zeb The Troll]

Point overruled. The disaster happened not because of low safety standards, but because the Russian owner of the plant didn't care to notify anyone.So, you're suggesting that a nuclear power plant was privately owned during the Soviet (Socialist) era?

The plant was owned and designed by the Soviet government. Russian people may have been involved, but it was Soviet affair, not a Russian one.

The IAEA only has two theories about the cause of the disaster. One theory is worker incompetence (due to lack of experience and training) and the other is poor design. I think most people would agree that it was a lot of both. Neither theory lists a failure of notification as a cause for the meltdown. If you're referring to the delay in notifying the surrounding area that they needed to evacuate, that's an aftermath issue and didn't contribute to the reactor's exploding in the first place (and was also a decision made by a government official).

[delboy]

LMAO awsome as normal :D LOL titanium elements rule, never had to fight one of them before

[Martichoras]

Isn't that a troll king?

"Mr Shine, him diamond"

[Vargtass]

Actually diamond just *burns*. It's only carbon, folks, just a fancier kinda charcoal. You can take a blowtorch to 'em and wave farewell to the family jewels.


Yes, you are right, if there's oxygen present (or air, for classic elementalists) which there probably is.

Even without available oxygen, however, the heat from a blowtorch would probably reform diamonds to graphite... being metatable and all...

Then again, you can also make polycrystaline diamond coatings using a acetylene blowtorch. But I'm straying quite off topic here.

[AK-00]

Uh... no. It's their job to kill enough of the enemy that they realise they can't take the city without coming damn close to annihalation themselves, and back off.

Meh. Tomáto, tomato. Each is implicit to the other



And O-chul didn't berate the troops, he berated Haley for failing to take things seriously, which could get her killed.

The point is, she didn't do anything wrong. Conning the troops into believing that most of them have life-spans measurable in increments larger than hours was a good thing. Hell, conning herself into believing that was a good thing. People who dwell too much on their own mortality tend not to fight very well.



Elan did vastly, vastly, vastly, inordinately more damage. But nobody's ticked off with him.
I mean, really, even with his Int penalties, Elan must have picked up by now that his childish, irresponsible, self-indulgent antics usually wind up hurting everyone he cares about. I am getting very, very tired of this 'oh, but he's only a child' attitude that all and sundry seem to take toward him. He isn't- he's a grown man who has to take responsibility for his actions. If not, you sure as hell don't bring a child into a dungeon with you.

Ah, well, this is a difficult one. In a real world situation, I'd agree with you. Elan is a liability. However, if you add the fact that this is fiction to the fact that it's centred on RPG meta-gaming humour, his presence starts to make more sense. Both in fiction and in RPGs, people tend to have a lot more tolerance for comic relief characters than they would in real life. You put up with the annoyance for the odd moment of humour they provide and because, in an RPG, they're someone elses character, and screwing over another players character isn't the done thing.

[buserian]

Titanium is way denser than rock, as others have mentioned. Unless the elemental is hollow, but that causes its own problems - hollow metal bounces far more than rubber...

Cheers,
Graham

[fluffybunny]

Good one! The geeky nerd humour had me at the start, I like the way Redcload is filling out as a main villain too! No more Sidekick-Redcloak!!!

[Sergeantbrother]

First, Bobbis is right. Unmoderated natural U has no critical mass. You need 550 kilos of U235 per cubic meter to go critical and natural U only has 133 kilos U235 per cubic meter. Just don't dunk it in water. :D

Second, the Chernobyl reactor was a totally different design than TMI. Civilian-opeated, water-cooled, graphite moderated reactors with positive void co-efficients are insanely dangerous and the US sensibly never built one. The Soviets, on the other hand, didn't give a damn.

Third, TMI did not hurt or kill anyone. Duh?

Wait a minute, uranium has a mass of around 19,100 kilograms per cubic meter.

Also, wouldn't there be a tendency for a uranium elemental (even made of 99% U238) to transform itself into plutonium 239 - as the radiation from the U238 bombards itself, it will be transformed into plutonium.


And on the subject of a titanium elemental - that stuff is pretty tough, just how hard would it be to damage a thing like that?

[Ariko]

Redcloak just proved himself a more competent tactician than Xykon or even Nale.

Wait..'even Nale'? That almost sounds like you are saying Nale is good at planning :amused:

[phlip]

Wait..'even Nale'? That almost sounds like you are saying Nale is good at planning :amused:

Well, his plans have, for the most part, worked...

He managed to get the talisman, and only lost it because of Haley's Nat 20.
His escapades in Cliffport worked perfectly, and he was able to integrate into the party.
Even his spur-of-the-moment deceit against Elan in #393 was only foiled when Haley got her voice back unexpectedly.

Say what you will about his plan's overcomplicatedness, but they do work.

[Fabio_MP]

I loved this one!

is the kind of thing that I love in dnd magic :)

[BisectedBrioche]

Hurray for scientific elementals.

Perhaps there will be an aluminium elemental. It could find a bit of rust and then, with a little help from an magneisum elemental and a fireball spell, summon one hell of a fire elemental.

[416365416c]

It looks like no-one has mentioned this (and I did quickly read the first 222 posts), and maybe I'm wrong (I am not a serious D&D player), but 'elementals' share only the word for chemical element because of the meaning of the word, that being that they are composed entirely of the same substance. In our physical reality the chemical elements satisfy this definition when subjected to scientific chemical inquiry, but in world with wizards natural laws are not binding enough for such a strict definition to exist. A fire elemental can be composed entirely out of a chemical reaction due to magic, thus satisfying the definition. You could even have more abstract elementals, like an elemental which is entirely Electromagnetic radiation, or even a humor elemental (I suspect that the giant keeps a tame one as a pet).

Devil's advocacy aside, this was an exceptionally amusing comic (although not an exception from the Giant's track record) and I really enjoy redcloak's 'passing grades in chem'. I find it even more amusing since we have seen a similar thing in the books. I hope that it gets promoted to full running gag status over time, especially since this author is a master of using running gags effectively.

[phlip]

especially since this author is a master of using running gags effectively.

I prepared an Explosive Runes Elemental this morning.

[Illiander]

ok, for everyone saying that the object you're hitting something with takes as much damage as what's being hit - how many hit points does a sword have?

[Jachra]

Mein Gott! He's attacking with homebrew of questionably origin! There's no way mere PHB classes can withstand such an onslaught!

[Luvlein]

Mein Gott! He's attacking with homebrew of questionably origin! There's no way mere PHB classes can withstand such an onslaught!
If only they were... most of them are crappy DMG NPC classes.

[tiercel]

What a run -- Redcloak just gets cooler with every comic these days!

Loved the "element" reference too -- just because this isn't the first comic to make such a joke (http://www.adventurers-comic.com/d/20011112.html) (and I'm sure there are others) doesn't make it less awesome in execution. (And neatly weaves together the funny and the plot as the Epic Battle begins in earnest!)

[Snake-Aes]

RedCloak's philactery is not white on the last panel.

[Zeb The Troll]

RedCloak's philactery is not white on the last panel.Post #34 of this thread.

[Snake-Aes]

cool...


you didn't expect me to read much out of 8 pages, do you? XD

[Nightwing]

I think we can all say good by to THAT wall



:redcloak: I got passing grades in chem.

:redcloak: you make we laugh:smallbiggrin:

[Dark]

A lot of the armor and walls could melt before the Ti golems do. But those in platinum armor or with platinum (poor Haley, she seems partial to gold) would be unable to move and get roasted, but they wouldn't melt. Nor diamond, with carbon coming in at 3500°C.
Others have already mentioned that diamond will burn long before that. I'd like to add that titanium (http://www.titanium.com/titanium/tech_manual/tech16.cfm) will also burn before it melts, at 1200 C.

Science!

[Tolkien_Freak]

The IAEA only has two theories about the cause of the disaster. One theory is worker incompetence (due to lack of experience and training) and the other is poor design. I think most people would agree that it was a lot of both. Neither theory lists a failure of notification as a cause for the meltdown. If you're referring to the delay in notifying the surrounding area that they needed to evacuate, that's an aftermath issue and didn't contribute to the reactor's exploding in the first place (and was also a decision made by a government official).

If you guys are confused, here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster#Causes) a helpful link.


This comic has EXACTLY the viewpoint I have about those things. Go :redcloak: Redcloak :redcloak: , you just owned the Greek philosophers!
If they wanted low-density catapult shots, though, they should have used something like aluminium. The coolest thing they could have done would have been a lithium elemental, though. It would catch fire if it hit water.

[Martichoras]

I was to rushed in my first post to bring up the question of why earth elementals would be as heavy as iron, rather than weighing as much as earth or rock commonly does, and hence being lighter than titanium.

However, I think that this adds to the humor, rather than lessens it. In my experience, the argument from physics/chemistry/other science from a player is rarely well thought out, often emphasises a single aspect of the situation: such as:

Player: "Titanium is strong and light!"
DM: "Erm, what are you comparing its density to?"
Player: "It is light and strong! My plan is an assured success!"

I am, by the way, reminded of the rules for firing people from catapults in GURPS Middle Ages 1 p. 89: 99.5% of the time the launched person automatically suffers "ignominius death". In the remaining 0.5% of such instances, the person takes 3d6 damage, and normal damage for a 100 yard fall... This rule is of course to be waived in a more cinematic game...

[Baalzebub]

"He Besieged me with SCIENCE!"

That was fun as hell!! :biggrin:

[motub]

oh****ohcrapohno.... we are sooooooo toast....

Highlights:

- Real element-based Elementals;

- Thomas Dolby reference....
- ...delivered beautifully by a :roach: , who return, stunningly, to precedence as the best one-liner-droppers in the series :smallsmile:.

But we are sooooooo toast..... and what was with the 1000 GP telescope (clearly a reference or joke I didn't get)? And why does everyone keep calling Redcloak Redcloak :smallwink: ?

[Blood]

We should have someone write up the stats to the Titanium Elemental in Homebrew. :smallsmile:

[Neo]

Well if you're going to be pedantic none of the elements are elements, they're compounds and fire :D

The Titanium Elemental so got me thinking of Munchkin and its wacky variants

[Squark]

Yay! Nerdy Science Jokes!

[WingedCheetah]

Oh man, so funny! And so sad for Azure City! :-(

And yay for science jokes! Not that I particularly excelled in science in school (just slightly better at that than math, the official Bane Of My Existance (TM) ).

And yeah, love the :roach:'s comment!

[mikeejimbo]

Redcloak is officially the most awesome of all the villians. I'm almost tempted to bump Elan down from #1 character for Redcloak, but for now, Redcloak will have to be #2.

[Teacher]

Oh, Red Cloak! I have so much more respect for you.

I think if he could be turned, he would be a fine member of OotS.

[fwiffo]

:thog: why they say no fire elemental? little green man just fire elemental at wall.