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AMFV
2014-09-02, 06:15 PM
The Fighter

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m28vsr1HX31rty7tao1_500.jpg

"There's nothing in the universe cold steel won't cut, I threw my ax at the demon, and he took no hurt, but I might have missed in the dusk, or a branch deflected its flight. I'm not going out of my way looking for devils; but I wouldn't step out of my path to let one go by."

A fighter is a combination of many things. They are no mere warriors driven to fight because of base needs. They fight because it is what they are. Who they are. Many of them train from a very young age, or develop prodigious abilities in their later years. Very few attain this sort of martial perfection untrained, but such things are heard of.

Adventures: For the Fighter, Adventuring is the only state, inaction, being at rest, is as much a torture as being stabbed by their enemies. They wander often, some of them fight for money, others travel to defend those weaker, still others fight because they enjoy the pain they see in their opponents eyes, the fear they feel.

Characteristics: A Fighter is both a master of martial discipline and a leader of men. They can turn the tide of a battle or rule over a kingdom with equal ease.

Alignment: What alignment or alignments your class may have and why.

Religion: What deities or ideals your class follows, if any, and why.

Background: How you become part of your class and why.

Races: What races most often have members of your class, as well as any races that cannot join, along with why.

Other Classes: How your class relates to other classes, positively or negatively, and why.

Role: What your class does in and for a party.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
CLASS NAME's have the following game statistics.
Abilities: A brief description of what ability scores are important to your class.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d12. (Barbarians get this, it's reasonable that fighters might)
Starting Age: As figh

Class Skills
The CLASS NAME's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are...

Skill Points at First Level: (x + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: x + Int modifier

CLASS NAME


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special


1st

+1

+2

+0

+2
As Iron, Bonus Feat, Battle Tempo


2nd

+2

+3

+0

+3
Surefooted Charge, Intercede and Cover


3rd

+3

+x

+x

+x
Bonus Feat (Skill Focus: Intimidate), Bonus Feat (Power Attack), Aggressive Negotiator


4th

+4

+x

+x

+x
Opportunistic Charge, Adrenaline Rush


5th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Swift Demoralize, Intimidating Presence, Mount


6th

+6/+1

+x

+x

+x
Pounce, Bonus Feat (Improved Bull Rush), Undaunted


7th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Band of Brothers, Drilled Perfection, Tough as Old Nails


8th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Combat Lunge, Bonus Feat (Sidestep), Bonus Feat (Shock Trooper)


9th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Extended Demoralization, Battlefield Terror, Tactical Planning


10th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Skilled Opportunist, Vigilance


11th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Rampaging Charge, Improved Power Attack


12th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Defensive Bracing, Menace


13th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Threatening Gaze, Shrug It Off


14th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Class Ability


15th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Class Ability


16th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Class Ability


17th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Class Ability


18th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Class Ability


19th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Class Ability


20th

+x

+x

+x

+x
Class Ability



Class Features
All of the following are class features of the CLASS NAME.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: What weapons and armor your class is proficient in the use of!

All other class features go here (Use the format shown directly below if you don't know what to do.)!

CLASS FEATURE NAME (Ex, Su, Sp, Ps):

As Iron(Ex):

"He's not human... he's like a piece of iron"

A fighter's superior toughness and mental force of will allows them to shrug off the effects that others might break under. At any time when the fighter would be affected in any way by a spell, they may choose to shrug off the effects of the spell, ignoring any effect caused by the spell. This is a subconscious choice, for example if a fighter chooses not to ignore an invisibility or illusion effect they do not become aware of the presence of the effect. In any encounter, a fighter may ignore a number of spell levels equal to their fighter level. If the spell would cause the fighter direct damage, then it counts against their limit of spell levels for the duration of the encounter. However a fighter may choose to cease ignoring the effect, and take the damage, in order to ignore another spell effect. If a fighter ignores the effects of a damaging spell for the entirety of the encounter the spell has no effect.

Additionally if a spell stops affecting the fighter, it no longer counts against his maximum spell levels to be ignored. For example if a Fighter is dominated and chooses to ignore it, but they then later kill the dominating entity, then dominate no longer counts against their total levels ignored. Or in another example if a Fighter uses the ability to ignore the affects of a Wall of Force by walking through it, after he has walked through the Wall it no longer counts against his total spell levels ignored.

Bonus Feat:

At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Battle Tempo (Ex):

A Fighter learns to control the tempo of those who are engaged in a fight with them, as long as they are threatening an adversary, and have attacks of opportunity remaining. The threatened opponent loses their highest bonus attack in that round, since they are forced to spend it reacting to the fighter's thrusts and jabs or the threat of them.

Surefoot Charge (Ex):

At 2nd level, a fighter becomes more able to move over difficult terrain. They learn to charge at their full speed even over difficult terrain. Provided that they can make any checks required to cross the terrain.

This surefootedness also gives them a +4 to resist bullrush attempts.

Intercede and Cover (Ex):

At 2nd level, a fighter also masters the ability of protecting and defending their allies. Any time an ally is attacked in a square that the fighter threatens. The fighter may either redirect the attack to themselves (in the case of melee attacks), intercede by moving into the threatened square and moving between their threatened ally and the attack (in the case of rays or ranged attacks), or by moving their ally out of the area of effect (in the case of an area effect) in order to use Intercede and Cover in this manner the fighter must have a clear path to push the ally out of the affected area.

Intercede and Cover can also be used to protect allies from automatic attacks or traps. However it cannot be used to protect the ally if the fighter is not aware of the attacker or the origination of the attack. Usage of this ability consumes an attack of opportunity, and the ability may not be used when the fighter has no remaining attacks of opportunity that round.

Bonus Feat (Skill Focus: Intimidate):

At 3rd Level a fighter's presence becomes increasingly intimidating and intense. They are given the feat Skill Focus: Intimidate to reflect this presence.

Bonus Feat (Power Attack):

At 3rd Level, a fighter receives the feat Power Attack for free, and does not to meet the prerequisites of this feat.

Aggressive Negotiator (Ex):

"It is better to be feared, than it is to be loved"

At 3rd Level, a Fighter learns to leverage their intimidating presence in social situations. They can use their intimidate check to substitute for a diplomacy check. With characters agreeing to aide the fighter or not to attack them as a matter of fear rather than of friendship.

Opportunistic Charge (Ex):

At 4th Level, a fighter's combat readiness improves drastically. They are continuously ready to rush about the battlefield to aid their allies or to strike at an unprepared opponent. They may make a charge attack as an attack of opportunity. A fighter is considered to be threatening all squares that may be reached with a straight line charge, as long as they have attacks of opportunity remaining. A fighter cannot use this feat to move more than a their standard movement multiplied by five in a single round.

Adrenaline Rush (Ex):

A fighter eventually learns how to tap into their vast reserves of adrenaline. Allowing them to break bonds, push through doors, or shatter the arms of those grappling them. Once per round a fighter may use a Freedom of Movement effect. This must be done during the course of a move action either during the fighter's turn or during an Opportunistic Charge. Additionally this ability works on mundane restrictions to movement, however a fighter cannot use it to penetrate more than five feet of material. Additionally, the fighter may need to make an attack roll to sufficiently damage the object's hardness.

Swift Intimidate (Ex):

At fifth level, a fighter may use the Intimidate skill for any purpose as a swift action.

Intimidating Presence (Ex):

"You know what, Bob, I don't really think we need to ask this guy any questions..."

At fifth level, a fighter's presence is so intense and intimidating that people pay more attention to it, and only a passing attention to what the fighter is actually saying. This allows the fighter to use an intimidate check in place of a bluff check.

Mount (Ex):

A fighter obtains the services of a faithful and stalwart mount at fifth level. The mount is a treated as a cohort one level less than the fighter, however it cannot posses any Caster Levels and must be appropriate to use as a riding mount. The mount never counts against the Fighter's Leadership score and will never desert the fighter even if mistreated.

Additionally if the fighter is riding the mount it gains the Surefooted Charge, and Opportunistic Charge abilities, and they may choose to use their As Iron ability to prevent spells from affecting their mount as well, these do count against their limit of ignored spells though.

Pounce (Ex):

At 6th Level a fighter learns to make a full attack at the end of a charge. As the pounce special ability.

Bonus Feat (Improved Bull-Rush):

At 6th level, a fighter gains Improved Bull-rush as a bonus feat.

Undaunted (Ex):

By 6th level, a fighter has experienced horrors beyond the ken of mortal men. They learn to shut-out fear completely. They become completely immune to any fear effect. Also the fighter's ability to stand against the things that make him afraid give those who accompany him a +4 bonus to resist fear effects as well.

Band of Brothers (Ex):

At level 7, the fighter's reputation is such that they begin to attract other like-minded individuals. A fighter gains the leadership feat, but they are not allowed to attract any follower who can cast spells. They also receive half of their fighter class level as a bonus to their leadership score.

Drilled Perfection (Ex):

The fighter has finally reached a point where there is no further benefit in drilling. Errors in combat have become a thing of the past unless they are facing an opponent who is significantly threatening to the fighter. Against any foe whose Hit Dice is less than or equal to the Fighter's levels in fighter, the fighter may take ten on attack rolls.

Tough as Old Nails (Ex):

At seventh level a fighter has grown tougher through years of combat and training and many blows that would drop a lesser adversary simply impact them and cause no damage. A fighter may add their constitution modifier to their Armor class in addition to their dexterity modifier. This is an untyped bonus, and is not capped by armor limits on dexterity.

Combat Lunge (Ex):

At 8th level, a fighter learns to gracefully extend themselves while striking at an opponent, their reach is increased by five feet.

Bonus Feat (Sidestep)

At 8th level, a fighter gains the feat Sidestep, without needing to meet the prerequisites

Bonus Feat (Shock Trooper)

At 8th level, a fighter gains the feat Shock Trooper, even if they do not meet the prerequisites.


Extended Demoralization (Ex):

At 9th level a fighter's intimidation is not something that is easily forgotten. Anyone who has been demoralized by the fighter, remains so for a period of 24 hours.

Battlefield Terror (Ex):

A Fighter is a terrifying sight to behold on the battlefield. Anyone with any intellect at all can realize this. Even those who have not felt the touch of dread in countless years. A fighter's intimidation affects all creatures all creatures with an intelligence score, regardless of natural or magical immunity.

Tactical Planning (Ex):

A fighter may sacrifice one of his attacks of opportunity to shout directions to an ally, allowing them to take one extra standard action which takes effect immediately.

Skilled Opportunist (Ex):

At 10th level a fighter becomes more skilled at exploiting opportunities in combat, they may make a number of extra attacks of opportunity equal to half their fighter class level.

Vigilance (Ex):

A fighter has spent most of their career surveying the battlefield, constantly being mindful of threats. At 10th level a fighter may use their Tactical Planning ability when anybody provokes an attack of opportunity in any square that they could threaten through one move action. A fighter may also move up to his standard movement in order to utilize the intercede and cover ability rather than simply charging.

The fighter also may no longer be flat-footed.

Rampaging Charge (Ex):

At 11th level, a fighter learns to make a charge attack without heed, cutting through opponents as they charge through the field. A fighter may take a charge action, and make a full attack against all opponents in the length of that charge. They must succeed on a bullrush or overrun attempt to continue their charge beyond an opponent however.

Improved Power Attack (Ex):

At 11th level, a fighter deals +50% the normal damage from their use of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using the Power Attack feat, a fighter wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +3 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each 1 penalty they applies to their attack rolls.

Defensive Bracing (Ex):

At level 12, a fighter learns the art of defensive bracing, if using the Combat Expertise feat, or fighting defensively, they can an amount equal to twice their bonus to AC as damage reduction. This damage reduction counts as DR/-.

Menace(Ex):

At twelfth level, a fighter's aura of menace becomes palpable, all enemies within 30' are considered Shaken by the fighter's intimating presence. This includes anybody who intends to take hostile action against the fighter, regardless of the fighter's knowledge of their intent.

Threatening Gaze (Ex):

Beginning at 13th level as a free action at any point during their turn, a fighter may lock an opponent in a gaze, causing them to become shaken. Additionally unless they succeed at a will save, against a DC equal to (10 + the Fighter's Class Levels in Fighter + 1/2 the Fighter's Ranks in intimidate) they also suffer a 50% movement penalty and a 50% Spell Failure rate. Since this effect is not caused by restriction in movement it affects divine caster's as well.

Shrug It Off (Ex):

At 13th level if a fighter is targeted by any effect requiring a save, they may in the case of failure exchange any negative effects of the effect for the dazed condition which persists for a single round. They may use this ability once per encounter.

OldTrees1
2014-09-02, 06:50 PM
This looks nice/interesting.

Battle Tempo seems too strong until opponents get +6BAB. Even then it prevents standard action single attacks(including most strikes).

Vanguard strike includes the phrase "a standard move action". Why not say "a move action" instead of leaving it open to the "a standard move(typo) action" interpretation that PO will be biased towards.

Edit: Or does Battle Tempo merely decrease the enemy's BAB by 6?

Just to Browse
2014-09-02, 08:05 PM
Aside from 2 exceedingly broken abilities (Leadership for spell emulators that aren't spellcasters and AoO standard actions to buff the wizard) this is hardly close to T2. If not for the Leadership, it would be T4. This is a class with tons of combat stats, a weak animal companion, leadership, and the ability to grant allies standard actions outside of the turn.

He can't even fly.

AMFV
2014-09-02, 08:07 PM
Aside from 2 exceedingly broken abilities (Leadership for spell emulators that aren't spellcasters and AoO standard actions to buff the wizard) this is hardly close to T2. If not for the Leadership, it would be T4. This is a class with tons of combat stats, a weak animal companion, leadership, and the ability to grant allies standard actions outside of the turn.

He can't even fly.

Neither can a favored soul... Well they can get Wind Walk, but this can get a mount (I'll fix the flight aspect of that later.)

Also you missed the key ability, "As Iron" is pretty much the first game breaking thing. And the Standard Actions is the second. A Tier 2 is defined by having multiple game breaking abilities we're at 2... That's pretty decisive right there.

Edit: Also "If only there was some other way to get fly, like with some kind of item or something...."


This looks nice/interesting.

Battle Tempo seems too strong until opponents get +6BAB. Even then it prevents standard action single attacks(including most strikes).

Vanguard strike includes the phrase "a standard move action". Why not say "a move action" instead of leaving it open to the "a standard move(typo) action" interpretation that PO will be biased towards.

Edit: Or does Battle Tempo merely decrease the enemy's BAB by 6?

Battle Tempo prohibits them from attacking with their highest bonus, so if you had a BAB of +11/+6/+1, then if you were being affected by Battle Tempo you'd attack with +6/+1

Just to Browse
2014-09-02, 09:06 PM
The Favored Soul gets air walk, which is good enough for flight. But they also literally get wings at 17th level. The current mount is as the druid, and does not fly. If you plan to fix that, I recommend noting it in the class.

Before you go further, I'd like to give you a little advice on three very important things that are central to T2 and T1 fighter fixes:
Tier 2 is Not About Breaking The Game: While this oft-repeated meme echoes through the chamber of D&D 3e forums, it's not true and you won't see many good brewers supporting it. T2 and T1 classes are not about making the game unplayable in X number of ways, but about flexibility in resolving encounters. A T2 caster needs to have multiple forms of attacks and multiple forms of resistances but also needs to be able to circumvent encounters with the appropriate forms of utility (mobility against closet trolls, stealth for infiltration missions). Getting a bunch of attack and defense abilities without the accompanying utility does not qualify a class for T2.
Magic Immunity is Not a Healthy Ability: Magic Immunity is a hard-counter ability that totally wrecks spell- or SLA-reliant creatures and does nothing to others. These kinds of abilities are really unhealthy and I recommend not including them. When the class is appropriately balanced around the power of negating spells, encounters become very binary (Magic Immunity > All Spellcasters. Anything else > Magic Immunity) which feels bad for the GM trying to build cool fights and the player who runs over mages without trying whilst getting stomped by any non-mage. This binary-ness is also what fails to make the ability worth a tier, because the class will perform way under par in 50-80% of encounters and way over par in 20-50% of encounters, making it very hard to actually gauge the balance of the class in the first place.
Items are Not An Excuse for Lacking Balance: Items can grant you literally every effect necessary to be Tier 2, but that doesn't mean classes that aren't Tier 2 count as Tier 2 because they get items. A commoner could just buy elder wands instead of spells, and that wouldn't make the class Tier 2. The same goes for a fighter who has no utility buying items that grant utility.

Also, offering an ally a standard action as an AoO is so overpowered that a 20th-level character could have it and I would be calling it broken. Get 14 Dex and hire a militia member to run circles around you so you get 2 spells off on their turn for you or any ally nearby. Get 9 commoners to fly around with you at all times and multiply your chance of winning initiative by 10.

AMFV
2014-09-02, 09:15 PM
The Favored Soul gets air walk, which is good enough for flight. But they also literally get wings at 17th level. The current mount is as the druid, and does not fly. If you plan to fix that, I recommend noting it in the class.

That will be fixed.



Before you go further, I'd like to give you a little advice on three very important things that are central to T2 and T1 fighter fixes:
Tier 2 is Not About Breaking The Game: While this oft-repeated meme echoes through the chamber of D&D 3e forums, it's not true and you won't see many good brewers supporting it. T2 and T1 classes are not about making the game unplayable in X number of ways, but about flexibility in resolving encounters. A T2 caster needs to have multiple forms of attacks and multiple forms of resistances but also needs to be able to circumvent encounters with the appropriate forms of utility (mobility against closet trolls, stealth for infiltration missions). Getting a bunch of attack and defense abilities without the accompanying utility does not qualify a class for T2.

You are dead wrong, my emphasis added:



Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.



Magic Immunity is Not a Healthy Ability: Magic Immunity is a hard-counter ability that totally wrecks spell- or SLA-reliant creatures and does nothing to others. These kinds of abilities are really unhealthy and I recommend not including them. When the class is appropriately balanced around the power of negating spells, encounters become very binary (Magic Immunity > All Spellcasters. Anything else > Magic Immunity) while feels bad for the GM trying to build cool fights and the player who runs over mages without trying whilst getting stomped by any non-mage. This binary-ness is also what fails to make the ability worth a tier, because the class will perform way under par in 50-80% of encounters and way over par in 20-50% of encounters, making it very hard to actually gauge the balance of the class in the first place.

The class doesn't have magic immunity, it has the ability to ignore a certain number of spells, that's exactly the same as the Spell Spell Mantle albeit a little bit increased to provide the necessary hit.

Also in encounters without spells, it's only an Ubercharger that threatens anything in charge range and can charge as an AoO, I don't think they'll have problems.



Items are Not An Excuse for Lacking Balance: Items can grant you literally every effect necessary to be Tier 2, but that doesn't mean classes that aren't Tier 2 count as Tier 2 because they get items. A sorcerer with no spells could just buy elder wands instead of spells, and that wouldn't make him Tier 2. The same goes for a fighter who has no utility buying items that grant utility.

An Artificer counts their items towards their tier. Utility is not the key to Tier 2, it's raw power.



Also, offering an ally a standard action as an AoO is so overpowered that a 20th-level character could have it and I would be calling it broken. Get 14 Dex and hire a militia member to run circles around you so you get 2 spells off on their turn from you or any ally nearby.

So it is one game breaking ability, right when Sorcerers and Wilders are capable of really breaking the game, sounds like Tier 2, remember Tier 3 isn't our goal here...

Emperor Tippy
2014-09-02, 09:37 PM
An Artificer counts their items towards their tier. Utility is not the key to Tier 2, it's raw power.
An Artificer can make all of his own items out of native ability. He need never purchase any magical items and can even turn any magical items that he comes across into whatever other magical items he wants.

Just to Browse
2014-09-02, 09:38 PM
You are dead wrong, my emphasis addedSo first, are you conceding that it is not in fact requires for T2 casters to "break the game"? Because that was my core conceit in the first place. Your other inaccuracies aside, if you agree with that then you should agree that free standard actions and immunity to magic are not OK.


The class doesn't have magic immunity, it has the ability to ignore a certain number of spells, that's exactly the same as the Spell Spell Mantle albeit a little bit increased to provide the necessary hit.Spellmantle from PGtF is a spell that stops very specific spells that the caster chooses. It is very similar to the spell called spell immunity from the PHB, and shares very little to do with As Iron except that it lets the player ignore spells. As Iron is on all the time, it affects any spell that hits you (not just spells the fighter names), has no limitation on spell level, and the fighter can re-choose the spells he's immune to when affected by another one. It's far far far stronger and more toxic than the 4th-level spell immunity.


Also in encounters without spells, it's only an Ubercharger that threatens anything in charge range and can charge as an AoO, I don't think they'll have problems.I'm not sure what you're getting at here -- being capable of attacking anyone within 60' as a full-round action is a more healthy ability with fewer hard counters.


An Artificer counts their items towards their tier. Utility is not the key to Tier 2, it's raw power.You have forgotten what this particular thread of conversation was about. I recommend you read it again. Saying a fighter is T2 because he could buy flight is like saying the commoner is T2 because he could buy flight.


So it is one game breaking ability, right when Sorcerers and Wilders are capable of really breaking the game, sounds like Tier 2, remember Tier 3 isn't our goal here...If I wrote a class called the Awesome Lord with the following abilities at level 1:

Win Everything (Ex): The Awesome Lord deals any target with 40 miles of himself 9999999 damage. The damage cannot be avoided in any way.

Can't Touch This (Ex): The Awesome Lord cannot lose hit points or suffer from any conditions he doesn't like.

Then the class would have two ways of breaking the game from level 1. But that wouldn't make it Tier 2, Tier 1, or even Tier 0 or -1 or whatever. The class would just be bad because the abilities written for it were bad. A similar, much less exaggerated principle applies here. Getting free standard actions is broken and doesn't make the class Tier 2.

AMFV
2014-09-02, 09:45 PM
So first, are you conceding that it is not in fact requires for T2 casters to "break the game"? Because that was my core conceit in the first place. Your other inaccuracies aside, if you agree with that then you should agree that free standard actions and immunity to magic are not OK.

Spellmantle from PGtF is a spell that stops very specific spells that the caster chooses. It is very similar to the spell called spell immunity from the PHB, and shares very little to do with As Iron except that it lets the player ignore spells. As Iron is on all the time, it affects any spell that hits you (not just spells the fighter names), has no limitation on spell level, and the fighter can re-choose the spells he's immune to when affected by another one. It's far far far stronger and more toxic than the 4th-level spell immunity.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here -- being capable of attacking anyone within 60' as a full-round action is a more healthy ability with fewer hard counters.

You have forgotten what this particular thread of conversation was about. I recommend you read it again. Saying a fighter is T2 because he could buy flight is like saying the commoner is T2 because he could buy flight.

If I wrote a class called the Awesome Lord with the following abilities at level 1:

Win Everything (Ex): The Awesome Lord deals any target with 40 miles of himself 9999999 damage. The damage cannot be avoided in any way.

Can't Touch This (Ex): The Awesome Lord cannot lose hit points or suffer from any conditions he doesn't like.

Then the class would have two ways of breaking the game from level 1. But that wouldn't make it Tier 2, Tier 1, or even Tier 0 or -1 or whatever. The class would just be bad because the abilities written for it were bad. A similar, much less exaggerated principle applies here. Getting free standard actions is broken and doesn't make the class Tier 2.

Alright you don't like it because it breaks your idea of what the game is, which is part of what a higher tier class does. I can accept that you don't like it, but you aren't really presenting anything constructive to this. There are no set abilities required to be Tier 2, you can have any combination of game breaking options and be Tier 2, you don't need to have specific ones. In fact you can have less versatility.

And while your imaginary class would be possibly bad, it would be a Tier 2 or Tier 1. Because it has game breaking abilities. That's the definition of tier 2. Having the raw power. Just because you don't like how it's done doesn't mean that it doesn't apply. Again the goal here was to create a mundane gamebreaker, and that's definitely done here. Although I'm not sure how effectively. I'd say it's in the lower end of Tier 2, with an average optimization Favored Soul


An Artificer can make all of his own items out of native ability. He need never purchase any magical items and can even turn any magical items that he comes across into whatever other magical items he wants.

Eh, I concede the point, I've reworked the mount ability, so it's leadership lite (or thrallherd lite) which should fix the mobility problem.

Just to Browse
2014-09-02, 09:55 PM
Before I offer constructive criticism, you need to see the problem. If you would like it now, it is this: Reboot the class to do more healthy things.

And no, this is not "what a higher tier class does". Literally every single Tier 2 class has healthy methods of play, which this class does not. The class breaks the game in a bad way.

And again, you have yet to actually show that breaking the game is what Tier 2 is all about. In fact, here is a quote from the very page you were using to tell me I was wrong.


the class itself is capable of anythingNow this class is obviously not capable of anything on its own. It is in fact capable of a very limited subset of things which includes "ignoring spells" and "abusively letting allies ignore the action economy" and almost nothing else. What you have done is create a mundane game breaker, but you have not actually produced Tier 2 class. This is an overpowered Tier 4 class and unfortunately will stay that way unless you do a serious rework.

AMFV
2014-09-02, 10:01 PM
Before I offer constructive criticism, you need to see the problem. If you would like it now, it is this: Reboot the class to do more healthy things.

And no, this is not "what a higher tier class does". Literally every single Tier 2 class has healthy methods of play, which this class does not. The class breaks the game in a bad way.

And again, you have yet to actually show that breaking the game is what Tier 2 is all about. In fact, here is a quote from the very page you were using to tell me I was wrong.

I disagree, fundamentally. And I don't think I'm going to convince you, but frankly it is capable of ignoring any spell, that's game breakingly powerful, I would say that's close to "capable of anything" in a world where spells are ultimate power. Also I feel that you could have a healthy play with this class, I suspect the problem is that abilities that are equivalent to some Tier 2 or Tier 1 abilities are seen by you as overpowered in the hands of a mundane.



Now this class is obviously not capable of anything on its own. It is in fact capable of a very limited subset of things which includes "ignoring spells" and "abusively letting allies ignore the action economy" and almost nothing else. What you have done is create a mundane game breaker, but you have not actually produced Tier 2 class. This is an overpowered Tier 4 class and unfortunately will stay that way unless you do a serious rework.

Well that contradicts his earlier statements about Tier 2.

Just to Browse
2014-09-02, 10:09 PM
I disagree, fundamentally. And I don't think I'm going to convince you, but frankly it is capable of ignoring any spell, that's game breakingly powerful, I would say that's close to "capable of anything" in a world where spells are ultimate power. Also I feel that you could have a healthy play with this class, I suspect the problem is that abilities that are equivalent to some Tier 2 or Tier 1 abilities are seen by you as overpowered in the hands of a mundane.But few games have spells as "ultimate power". Between spells, powers, maneuvers, SLAs, supernatural abilities, vestiges, soulmelds, and truenames, there are a lot (a LOT) of magic things that can rule the world. And that is not to mention creatures that are mundanely powerful or have extraordinary abilities that rival spells or use spells as buffs or indirect assault. It's also not to mention the utter lack of utility or offensive power that the features provides (and nothing else in the class provides enough to compensate short of spamming fear effects). This form of magic immunity straight-up ruins the lives of classic mages and gets completely ignored by anybody else, and that makes it a very toxic mechanic while also failing to bring the class up to the standard of Tier 2.


Well that contradicts his earlier statements about Tier 2.Again, that's not something he said. What JaronK did say is that T1 and T2 classes can break a game. What he did not say is that T1/T2 classes must break the game to be considered T1 or T2. In fact, he has said that healers can break the game (because they get gate), but then goes on to say that their access to gate isn't considered in accounting for their tier.

AMFV
2014-09-02, 10:15 PM
But few games have spells as "ultimate power". Between spells, powers, maneuvers, SLAs, supernatural abilities, vestiges, soulmelds, and truenames, there are a lot (a LOT) of magic things that can rule the world. And that is not to mention creatures that are mundanely powerful or have extraordinary abilities that rival spells or use spells as buffs or indirect assault. It's also not to mention the utter lack of utility or offensive power that the features provides (and nothing else in the class provides enough to compensate short of spamming fear effects). This form of magic immunity straight-up ruins the lives of classic mages and gets completely ignored by anybody else, and that makes it a very toxic mechanic while also failing to bring the class up to the standard of Tier 2.


I disagree, however I don't think we're going to come to an agreement here, I imagine that a play test would be required. Also they later on get the ability to resist mundane effects, and several defensive abilities throughout. Just because the mechanic is inherently defensive doesn't make it bad. Furthermore being an Ubercharger who can charge in all circumstances provides the offensive boost. That's the offensive power, and they get several features to enhance that as well. They also have utility in that they can use Social skills (Using Intimidate as all of the social skills).

Furthermore they don't need to be versatile they just need to have that one ability, and the other ability that's enough to have things that make Tier 1's jealous and that's sufficient to be tier 2, albeit a very unique flavor.



Again, that's not something he said. What JaronK did say is that T1 and T2 classes can break a game. What he did not say is that T1/T2 classes must break the game to be considered T1 or T2. In fact, he has said that healers can break the game (because they get gate), but then goes on to say that their access to gate isn't considered in accounting for their tier.

It's worth noting WHY he said that. Which is because they only get that power boost at 17th level, not earlier. If they had gate earlier they'd be bumped up a tier.

Just to Browse
2014-09-02, 10:23 PM
I disagree, however I don't think we're going to come to an agreement here, I imagine that a play test would be required. Also they later on get the ability to resist mundane effects, and several defensive abilities throughout. Just because the mechanic is inherently defensive doesn't make it bad. Furthermore being an Ubercharger who can charge in all circumstances provides the offensive boost. That's the offensive power, and they get several features to enhance that as well. They also have utility in that they can use Social skills (Using Intimidate as all of the social skills).You can be in disagreement, but you would be incorrect. I cite literally every WotC monster that doesn't centralize its tactics around spellcasting to demonstrate why this form of spell immunity is bad. Also, I think you need to take a step back and look at what T2 classes are capable of in the vein of utility. Social skills are not a level-appropriate utility by level 5. Not being able to go underwater, underground, or onto other planes without help is a sure sign that you aren't T2.


Furthermore they don't need to be versatile they just need to have that one ability, and the other ability that's enough to have things that make Tier 1's jealous and that's sufficient to be tier 2, albeit a very unique flavor.They do need an ability to do things that makes T1's jealous. They don't have that ability, but they do need one.


It's worth noting WHY he said that. Which is because they only get that power boost at 17th level, not earlier. If they had gate earlier they'd be bumped up a tier.If healers had gate earlier, they would be tossed out the way the truenamer is tossed out. Because they would be non-functional.

I also note that you did not respond as to the core point of that comment, which is that breaking the game isn't necessary for T1/T2. Is this because you now recognize it?

OldTrees1
2014-09-03, 12:14 PM
Again, that's not something he said. What JaronK did say is that T1 and T2 classes can break a game. What he did not say is that T1/T2 classes must break the game to be considered T1 or T2. In fact, he has said that healers can break the game (because they get gate), but then goes on to say that their access to gate isn't considered in accounting for their tier.

Just to jump in (so this is a reply to both of you).
If "X can break the game" is part of the definition of X, then it is true that "X does not have to break the game but must be able to break the game".

So Tiers 1&2 are defined by having a bad game design element. This is one of the reasons that the homebrewing community tries to avoid anything that actually qualifies as Tier 2.

Likewise if one has to make a Tier 2 class, it is a good idea to allow the players to avoid the bad game design element. (Sorcerers do not need to be followed by an army of outsiders despite being able to do so.)


Battle Tempo prohibits them from attacking with their highest bonus, so if you had a BAB of +11/+6/+1, then if you were being affected by Battle Tempo you'd attack with +6/+1

This did not answer the question.
If a 1st level Barbarian tries to Full Attack a 1st level Fighter, what happens?
If a 10th level Paladin tries to use a Standard action single attack against a 1st level Fighter, what happens?
If a 20th level Warblade tries to use a single attack strike(say the 9th level Iron Heart Strike) against a 1st level Fighter, what happens?

Just to Browse
2014-09-03, 09:19 PM
Just to jump in (so this is a reply to both of you).
If "X can break the game" is part of the definition of X, then it is true that "X does not have to break the game but must be able to break the game".

So Tiers 1&2 are defined by having a bad game design element. This is one of the reasons that the homebrewing community tries to avoid anything that actually qualifies as Tier 2.

Likewise if one has to make a Tier 2 class, it is a good idea to allow the players to avoid the bad game design element. (Sorcerers do not need to be followed by an army of outsiders despite being able to do so.)The thing is, "X can break the game" is not part of the definition of Tier 2. It is one of the capabilities of the WotC-created Tier 2 classes, but it isn't necessarily a trait required of a Tier 2 class. You could make a Tier 2 without game-breaking power, like Frank Trollman's fire mage or ErrantX's ebon initiate. That aside, I am 100% in agreement that if you do include a game-breaking element, it's good for it not to be mandatory.