Other players treat my character like an object

[cobaltstarfire]

Alright, I can be a bit stand offish person in real life, especially if someone is trying to order me around or simply decid. So I figured I'd come asking for advice and hopefully avoid trouble cropping up later. How do I talk to these people? Or should I just go straight to the DM?

Some background, it's a D&D adventurers league game, so there's a lot of people there the table is full with 7 players. It can get hectic, and the DM does a pretty good job at trying to keep things under control. That said I have a high pitched voice that gets lost in the crowd easy and don't really want to have to use my "teacher voice" all the time to be heard. (I've been opting to raise my hand and that's worked fine, except for one instance where I just had to put my foot down, mostly IC, I feel like this may be making it seem like most of the time I'm not going to act or something).

This situation probably isn't helped at all by the fact that I'm the strongest healer in the group, but also the only thing that could act as a meat shield (although the druid has been backing me up which I appreciate).

Most of the party is fine, it's just two guys. One who is always saying things like "Meatshield why aren't you in the front" (because after my turn all of you ninnies ran ahead of me), and who has decided it's ok to declare "Sure the cleric can carry the wounded" (which I would have offered, but it annoys me to have someone else say what my character is going to do) While the other is constantly assuming I've made a mistake and trying to correct me when I declare I'm going to cast a spell (I haven't so far, because I made spell cards), or demanding "Cleric heal me", even after I've run out of spells. (He also does this to the druid, we're both on the edge of basically just ignoring him now, which I feel is wrong, but he's constantly sucking up what little healing resources we have while doing nothing to help the party).

I am for the most part enjoying the game, but I feel like I'm going to eventually lose my composure dealing with one or both of these other players and want to try to head it off at the pass somehow?

[Garimeth]

Alright, I can be a bit stand offish person in real life, especially if someone is trying to order me around or simply decid. So I figured I'd come asking for advice and hopefully avoid trouble cropping up later. How do I talk to these people? Or should I just go straight to the DM?

Some background, it's a D&D adventurers league game, so there's a lot of people there the table is full with 7 players. It can get hectic, and the DM does a pretty good job at trying to keep things under control. That said I have a high pitched voice that gets lost in the crowd easy and don't really want to have to use my "teacher voice" all the time to be heard. (I've been opting to raise my hand and that's worked fine, except for one instance where I just had to put my foot down, mostly IC, I feel like this may be making it seem like most of the time I'm not going to act or something).

This situation probably isn't helped at all by the fact that I'm the strongest healer in the group, but also the only thing that could act as a meat shield (although the druid has been backing me up which I appreciate).

Most of the party is fine, it's just two guys. One who is always saying things like "Meatshield why aren't you in the front" (because after my turn all of you ninnies ran ahead of me), and who has decided it's ok to declare "Sure the cleric can carry the wounded" (which I would have offered, but it annoys me to have someone else say what my character is going to do) While the other is constantly assuming I've made a mistake and trying to correct me when I declare I'm going to cast a spell (I haven't so far, because I made spell cards), or demanding "Cleric heal me", even after I've run out of spells. (He also does this to the druid, we're both on the edge of basically just ignoring him now, which I feel is wrong, but he's constantly sucking up what little healing resources we have while doing nothing to help the party).

I am for the most part enjoying the game, but I feel like I'm going to eventually lose my composure dealing with one or both of these other players and want to try to head it off at the pass somehow?

"Sure the cleric can carry the wounded"

XXX, I don't mind carrying the wounded, but its my character, not yours.
XXX, I think YOU should carry the wounded, on account of me being both the healer and the meat-shield.

"Cleric heal me"

XXX, I've been meaning to talk about our group tactics. If you want me to be the meatshield, you all need to not run in front of me, also I only have so much healing to go around and there are 7 of us. Let's try and play alittle more tactically to spread it out.

Just deliver a polite but to the point comment the next time he does it. You mentioned that you are a teacher, if you had an issue with another teacher the principal would want you to try and resolve it between each other before bringing it to them, same for your students also I imagine. I would try and do the same with the player before going to the DM. And as far as your "teacher voice" ... use it if you have to. I've had to use my "Marine voice" before, though with a self imposed profanity filter.

My 2 cents.

[Daishain]

If what Garimeth suggests fails to have any effect, just ignore him.

Don't cover for his screwups, direct your resources where they are needed most, and only send healing his way if no one else is even scratched. Keep it up until he agrees to start acting like a teammate rather than just another douchebag. If he dies because of it, too bad. It was his own choice. This would work best if you got everyone else to play smart when it comes to actually working as a team.

If he still doesn't get the hint, and/or is the woefully unevolved type of human to take even passive resistance as a challenge, then I suggest getting the DM involved. If his characters keep ending up as slime chow, he's bound to either start paying attention, or simply leave the group. The latter may not be preferable, but would end the problem, and bring the crowd down to a more managable level at the same time.

[Garimeth]

If what Garimeth suggests fails to have any effect, just ignore him.

Don't cover for his screwups, direct your resources where they are needed most, and make him patch up his own holes until he agrees to act like a decent human being. If he dies because of it, too bad. It was his own choice. This would work best if you got everyone else to play smart when it comes to actually working as a team.

This is good advice too.

I would just make sure that any approach you take, not necessarily just this it applies to my advice also, you make it completely clear why you are doing it, not just to him but also the group, because otherwise he may try and play victim and if the groups buys it it'll make you look passive-aggressive instead of like you are sticking up for yourself.

[Broken Twin]

First off, I've GMed for seven players before, and it's quite the handful. Congrats to your GM if this is the only issue you've been having.

Now that that's out of the way... I've been in situations similar to yours. The players that are demanding your actions and resources are not respecting that they're not the only ones there to have fun.

The only reason I can think of offhand for the guy constantly trying to micromanage your spellcasting is his belief that you don't know how to. Be it due to sexism (assuming, as your avatar suggests, that you're female), or prior interaction with you. It's possible he thinks he's 'teaching you to play', while being too oblivious to realise you already have a good handle on your abilities.

The other guy sounds like he's used to playing the leader role, and it's harder to tell his objective. In a group that large, he may be trying to keep things running smoothly by micromanaging what he considers meaningless interaction so the group can "get to the good stuff." It's hard to really say without being there. Does he do this to everyone, or just you?

In total, I'd suggest your first move would be to ask the two of them to stop micromanaging you. If you've already done that, talk to your GM. If that fails to solve anything, you're gonna have to decide whether you want to put up with it, make waves by getting the group involved, or just leave.

[cobaltstarfire]

Hmm, well since the table is full, and we all get there an 30min-and hour early, I may be able to try to talk to the whole table about strategy and things. (the past two games had new players so we've been more focused on helping them generate their character).

I could see reminding them that since [druid] and I are the front line and only have 4 spells between the two of us, that we'd like to try to conserve our spells. It's nothing against any one if we decline to heal, it's just us trying to be smart with the resources at hand.

Maybe also try to get us to refer to each other at least by name, if not character name at least...I guess that kind of comes with the territory when you're playing a game where you don't know anyone there personally.

Edit: The guy who's always trying to correct me definitely can't seem to get through his head that I know what I'm doing. He's been wrong on every occasion. And yeah he seems to be unable to overcome this idea that I (yes a female) know how to and have experience role playing. The first time I called him out on it he said "sorry I just assumed--" It'd hold more water if he had stopped after the first time but...oh well.


I will keep in mind that the other fellow may be used to leadership...he's also got his background in 4e which may be coloring his behavior somewhat.

[Garimeth]

Hmm, well since the table is full, and we all get there an 30min-and hour early, I may be able to try to talk to the whole table about strategy and things. (the past two games had new players so we've been more focused on helping them generate their character).

I could see reminding them that since [druid] and I are the front line and only have 4 spells between the two of us, that we'd like to try to conserve our spells. It's nothing against any one if we decline to heal, it's just us trying to be smart with the resources at hand.

Maybe also try to get us to refer to each other at least by name, if not character name at least...I guess that kind of comes with the territory when you're playing a game where you don't know anyone there personally.

Yeah this post actually explains most of it, a little boundary setting and getting to know each other will probably clear up most if not all of this problem.

[Segev]

DEFINITELY learn each other's names. Character or real, either works. Both is preferable, and remembering who plays who is best. That helps personify the character and the player and it makes it so that you're not trying to keep "Divine Caster 1 and Divine Caster 2" straight.

[cobaltstarfire]

Yeah it'll be nice to know the character names. (I know everyone by name, except for one of the newer players...who I'm not sure actually introduced himself by name). I cringe everytime someone calls out "Class name, xyz" because I've never played in a game where that happened, and it just sort of comes off as rude to me (although I know that isn't the intention)


Thankyou all for your feedback, I feel like I'll have an easier time approaching the group and try to get things sorted.

edit: Also I don't know if some of the behavior is because of my gender or not, but I'd rather just pretend it isn't unless they start getting truly overbearing

[Mr Beer]

The nice thing is that they need you to do these things, so just require normal minimum courtesy to do them. As in 'Hey meatshield do x', respond with 'Cattriona <or whatever> says "You need to use my name and say please if you want x" ' - and immediately declare a different action for your turn if the player argues or doesn't comply politely. If you're firm with your be-nice-for-cooperation policy, they should fall into line.

This is less about gaming and more about insisting that people aren't jackasses when they deal with you. I mean occasionally you might have to put up with it, but not here.

EDIT

I had a manager (generally a nice guy) who for whatever reason thought it was funny to tell me to come over to him with the phrase 'Hey x come here!'. I did it once, the next time I replied 'you need to say please' and then refused to move from my desk until he did so. It worked.

[Bulhakov]

7 players and GM
Ouch, that's definitely crowded. If it were up to me, I would definitely split this into two 3-4 character parties. Otherwise, talk with the DM about introducing some houserules to make combat run faster and more organized. One good rule is - only the person who's currently taking the turn can speak OOC and talk to the GM, all others can only roleplay IC the things their characters would actually yell in combat.

Getting called by class
My advice - develop memorable and short nicknames for characters (even if they are class/race based). How about the next time the player calls "Cleric!" you yell back "It's 'Cleric, MA'AM!' to you!" ? (or Mrs. Cleric? Meatshield Ma'am? Mrs. Meatshield?) ;)

Penalty tip jar
Suggest the idea to the DM. If a player describes actions performed by another character have him throw in some money to a tip jar. The same thing can be done as penalty for stuff the DM might not like, e.g. interrupting another player, not paying attention, disruptive behavior. The money can go as the tip to the pizza delivery guy or to buy snacks/drinks for all.

[gom jabbarwocky]

How about the next time the player calls "Cleric!" you yell back "It's 'Cleric, MA'AM!' to you!" ? (or Mrs. Cleric? Meatshield Ma'am? Mrs. Meatshield?) ;)

That's a hoot! I'm always peeved when players refer to the PCs by the other player's names, but calling them by class or whatever is even worse. ("Bill, make a Fort Save!" "I'm pretty sure Bill is fine. Balthazar definitely needs to make a Fort Save, though.")

However, "That's Mrs. Cleric!" comes across as more funny than passive-aggressive, in my opinion. A gentle reminder that a PC is more than just a race and a class.

Being the Cleric also gives you access to several sneaky advantages. After all, only you can determine how you use your limited healing spells. If a character is wounded, whose to say that your patron deity didn't intend for them to be wounded? Maybe this PC hasn't been by the temple of Pelor (or whoever) lately to pay his respects? (Disclaimer: Never ever pull this more than once or twice. Otherwise it gets old real fast.)

[JusticeZero]

You might want to find out if some of the other guys think that behavior is unacceptable. They might be completely oblivious to the fact that it is happening right now, but be against it .."I detest discrimination against other people but because I've never experienced these things directly, I am oblivious when it happens to people around me unless they point it out to me using small words" syndrome is a thing.

[Jornophelanthas]

It appears that everyone is struggling to be heard in this huge group. While Cobaltstarfire appears to resort to raising her hand, the two players mentioned here appear to use the tactics of "People listen to me if I tell them what to do", and "If I talk louder than others, I will get heard".

Each of these requires a separate approach.

"People listen to me if I tell them what to do"
Simply refuse the request in just as loud a voice as it was given to you. Try not to sound aggressive, but make it clear that they are not playing your character. The "That's Ms. Meatshield to you" response would work nicely here. Or if someone tells your character to carry the wounded, you can reply by saying: "I was going to offer that, but you just volunteered."

"If I talk louder than others, I will get heard"
Ignore the loudmouths, and occasionally (no more than once per session) ask them to speak more softly. Use your "teacher voice" if you really need to be heard during a cacophony (e.g. to announce your turn action). Also, talk to the other players and the DM, and ask for some rules that regulate who is allowed to talk when. The goal is to have less people talking at the same time during play. For example, the DM should be able to focus his/her full attention on the player whose turn it is, and interrupting that player is not allowed.
This should eliminate the unwanted (and incorrect) advice to some extent.

The "Cleric heal me!" issue has a little bit of both problems. I believe the best way to respond to this is to say: "Not until you stop injuring yourself," or "I'm saving my last healing spell in case someone goes down," or "(Looks his character up and down.) It's just a scratch. You're still good," or "Sorry, but I'm in the front line. (Slashes weapon at enemy.) I'm a little busy here."
Out of combat, you could also ask the group to discuss tactics. Make it clear that you (and the Druid) have limited healing spells available, and that you want them to be spent as effectively as possible. Say that you will refuse to spend all your healing on one person (without pointing fingers) if that means the next person to need healing should go without. Establish a priority list of who should receive healing first, and when healing should be held in reserve. If anyone disagrees for selfish reasons, tell them to be more careful in combat, or to buy healing potions.

[cobaltstarfire]

You might want to find out if some of the other guys think that behavior is unacceptable. They might be completely oblivious to the fact that it is happening right now, but be against it .."I detest discrimination against other people but because I've never experienced these things directly, I am oblivious when it happens to people around me unless they point it out to me using small words" syndrome is a thing.

Well it may be, but like I said I'd really like to avoid going down that street if I can help it. The fellow is on some level aware of the implications of his behavior towards me, I can tell that much based on his apologies, but he just can't overcome his preconceived notion of my ability to play. (Which is admittedly mind boggling to me, since I haven't made a single "mistake" yet, and when I'm not sure I openly ask questions, or get my book out).


I think noise level can't really be addressed much, the louder fellows are probably louder in part because there's a concurrent mtg tournament. Although you guys did give me the idea of seeing if we can claim the back room before the other adventure league group gets there (or see if we can take turns at least, but it's probably first come first serve).

I'm going to keep to raising my hand, but try to use my "teacher voice" more often (such as when someone volunteers my character to do something, or when trying to speak to the party). And I'm going to start bringing a small notebook so I can write names and other things down. I already use one for the game I'm in on this forum, it may help to also have one for the real life group. (Although I'm really bad about trying to shuffle through stuff...hopefully adding a notebook to my character sheet and spell cards won't overcomplicate things for me)

[JusticeZero]

*contemplates casting Summon Forum Feminists*
I'm having a hard time being on board with that sort of silence. Mostly because these people need more experience of having other guys at the table pitch in with "Seriously, dude. Not cool."

[cobaltstarfire]

I rather look at it differently. I don't really want or need to be defended by the other people at the table. I'd much rather assert myself gracefully, and do it without pulling out a card that'll put one or more of the guys into a defensive mood.

That was part of why I came here for advice, because I know there are many people on this forum with much more experience at a real table, with a better grasp of what is acceptable conduct, and an understanding of what moves people to behave in the ways they do.

Don't take it as me being "silent" on the issue, I've looked him right in the eye several times and told him in no uncertain terms that I know what I'm doing and that he needs to back off. (like I said to start, I worry that about my tendency to be standoffish or rude, and don't want to be that way).

Turning it into a feminist issue is just going to sour the whole experience for everyone, especially over something so minor. I understand that cultivating a difference in attitude is important, but I feel how it is done is also extremely important, and at a table full of strangers during league play really isn't the time or place for it.

[Mr Beer]

I rather look at it differently. I don't really want or need to be defended by the other people at the table. I'd much rather assert myself gracefully, and do it without pulling out a card that'll put one or more of the guys into a defensive mood.

That was part of why I came here for advice, because I know there are many people on this forum with much more experience at a real table, with a better grasp of what is acceptable conduct, and an understanding of what moves people to behave in the ways they do.

Don't take it as me being "silent" on the issue, I've looked him right in the eye several times and told him in no uncertain terms that I know what I'm doing and that he needs to back off. (like I said to start, I worry that about my tendency to be standoffish or rude, and don't want to be that way).

Turning it into a feminist issue is just going to sour the whole experience for everyone, especially over something so minor. I understand that cultivating a difference in attitude is important, but I feel how it is done is also extremely important, and at a table full of strangers during league play really isn't the time or place for it.

Bolded what I want to comment on, a good guideline for what's acceptable at a table is simply what's acceptable in normal polite society. There is no reason for you to put up with jackassery just because it's a game, if anything the reverse is true because it's a purely voluntary exercise.

I agree it doesn't need to be a feminist issue, this has nothing to do with you forcing the patriarchy to check it's collective privilege, it's about you requiring courtesy from your fellow citizens.

[...]

Something like this happened to me once. Basically, the thing you should do is try to give your character more personality, so people can think of him/her as something other than "meat shield and healer."
If that doesn't work, or if you're doing a lot IC already, I have no idea what will work.

[cobaltstarfire]

So ok, I am sticking up for myself when the particular fellow most of you all are focused on tries to "help"

Since I've told him several times that I don't need his help ect ect, you're all suggesting I should complain about him to someone else at the table so that that other person might call him out on it if/when he does it again? (That still sits a little bit funny with me to be honest).


Isn't it more getting into the realm of talking to the DM if he does it again? You all clearly feel it's a bigger problem than I do. (he's only had 2 instances of this problem, with 1 minor annoyance that I chose to completely ignore beyond a flat "no").

[JusticeZero]

Also, it isn't that you need guys to save you so much as you need them to notice it if they saw it, they wouldn't stand for it, but they are oblivious.

[Rhunder]

I've had a similar problem. My character wasn't a respected member of the group nor me as a player. I can be stand offish, but I often go with unusual strategies. It only takes one decent execution of a strategy before people stop questioning you or ordering you around.

Basically, after putting my characters life on the line several times, he became respected as part of the group. Now out of character, we had a strong DM who could recognize players coming to confrontation and usually start asking a 3rd member of the party what they thought. Eventually me and player whom I argued strategy and actions, stop fighting and naturally turned to the 3rd person almost on instinct.

[draken50]

I will cop immediately to the fact that I am nominally a GM and not a player, additionally I am out spoken, generally unafraid of confrontation. However, I personally don't put up with people telling me what to do with my characters, or other people feeling entitled to to tell other players how to play theirs.

Right now, it seems like your analyzing your gaming for "Mistakes". I don't care if the cleric spends every round casting healing spells in combat instead of something more appropriate, it's their damn character, and OOC conversations about how to do something better can be fun, but in-game, a character's actions are only for that player control.

So my advice is to call all of them on that, out loud, when they do it. e.g. "Don't tell me what to do." Little in-game punitive stuff seems passive-aggressive to me, and I will absolutely give you credit for attempting to talk about it with them outside of game. In Game, I personally would tell them to shut their damn face holes and stop trying to control my character though me.

Edit: If the person seems to be honestly trying to provide gaming advice, I tend to respond with "Dude, I got this." Especially if it's not something particularly common/troublesome. In the case of someone calling commands every encounter, I will flatly tell them to knock it the hell off.

I am totally okay with people asking for help in character "Korgan! I need some help here!" is different than "Meatshield, why aren't you in the front?!"

[Segev]

Yeah, I think "firm but polite" is your best bet, with escalating levels of firmness as they repeat offense in any given gaming session. Always start over at simply firm but polite in a new one.

"Thank you, but I do know what I'm doing," is probably a good start. "I told you that I know what I'm doing. If I want advice, I will ask for it," the next time. Resort to more curt replies, such as "Stop telling me what to do" or "Stop telling me how to play my character," after that.

The "meatshield, carry that guy" bossiness can be responded to OOC and IC at once with, "I was going to, but you just volunteered." Since the command was both IC and OOC.

As for the healing demands, tell them ahead of time, "Be more careful; I am not going to have time to save you if you get in over your heads," and the like. Then, when they demand healing, heal them if they really need it, but order THEM to the back lines. "You're wasting my resources and my time better spent shielding the rest of the party from harm. Get BACK."

Be assertive and firm without being ruder than necessary. IC and OOC. And, if that doesn't work during a tense situation, after said situation is over, have an IC discussion (if it's IC behavior) or an OOC discussion (if not) with the party/table wherein your cleric (or you) tell the party what your tactics are, why they should cooperate with them, and, if theyr'e wasting your healing resources, explain why and that you will not always be able to save them if they keep being so reckless.

Then spend your spells as you see fit; if you're out of healing when they need it because they didn't listen to you, that's their fault.

If it's OOC stuff, then just lay it out calmly but politely. Explain the tactics for the healing, and let the two problem players know that you don't appreciate being bossed around nor told how to play your character. In front of everybody, so they all know of the problem and can keep an eye out for it.

[Algeh]

As a fellow female gamer and teacher, I suggest pulling out your teaching and classroom management skills on these fellow players as needed. Sure, you're not the DM and thus not "in charge", but you can still use a lot of the same tactics you would with students speaking out of turn with players trying to play your character for you. Sure, it's a little rude, but but I tend to treat it as one of those times when it's best to treat rudeness with rudeness since you've already tried being polite and it hasn't gotten you anywhere. If people are giving you unneeded OOC advice, a little firm "excuse me, but it's my turn to play right now, and I've decided that my character is going to ...." might be the way to go. I don't know what grade you're used to working with, but I know I have a "teacher voice" for dealing with, say, students giving unhelpful IT troubleshooting advice when I've told them to sit at their desks and work on homework for five minutes while I figure out why something isn't working, and that calm, normal volume "no thank you, I'm going to ... instead and right now you need to be ... " statement is what I'm thinking here. Depending on how much I wanted to build a bridge of friendship with these guys, I might talk to them beforehand and say something like "I know you're just trying to help (you may not actually know that, but it lets them save a little face, and, again, this is if you want to be nice to them rather than just get them to stop), but I know what I'm doing and how I want to play my character, so please let me take my own turns." Then escalate to the teacher-correction, which I'd personally prefer the DM to do (when I run games I don't let players say what other player's characters are doing unless they've mind-controlled them or something of that nature), but every DM has their own level of what they'll put up with and you may have to do it yourself if they don't.

IC, decide how your character feels about their IC actions. Do they like being bossed around? If not, how are they going to handle it? Maybe your character will snap at their character, IC, after the next fight, saying something like "thanks Fragile Bleedy Man! Running in front me and then yelling for healing was super helpful! I was wondering which of my several effective actions I should take, and then you decided it for me: none of them!", or are they more the type to say "fair warning: next time you run in front of me, I'll assume you're seeking an honorable death in single combat and leave you to it." or "It's time we had a discussion about tactics..."? Basically, if their character's actions are something your character would find annoying, have your character react to that annoyance however their personality and background would dictate (within the context of preserving at least some group harmony, but that's their job as much as yours). "I'm just playing my character" is one of the tried and true justifications of obnoxious people, but it also has a place. Your character has their own motivations and feelings, and presumably did not sign up for this dungeon crawl because they enjoyed being bossed around by fragile people who don't even know to stay behind the meatshield. Let them express some of that.

Also, a simple suggestion from teacher-land for the name issue: have everyone make folded triangle paper nameplates with their character's names on them in nice, big letters. That way, they're always visible and easy to remember, so they're more likely to get used. (Aside: I once had a campaign in which 3 of the six players (not characters) were named Chris. To keep them straight, we called all of them by their character names all the time, even OOC. Totally unworkable as a general solution, but it worked really well for that group.) We used to keep our nameplates in our folders with our character sheets and other character stuff, and get them out each week until we all knew everyone's names pretty solidly. If you're playing characters that look pretty different from the players and you're not using minis (or are using inaccurate minis - we played all of our games, regardless of genre, with a set of dollar store plastic Cowboys and Indians toys for the longest time), you may also want to have everyone bring a character portrait and tape it on the nameplate so people can remember that the big bearded guy is playing the little blue pixie spellcaster and is thus not the meatshield.

Remember: if they wanted to play a meatshield, they could have created one. They chose to play something else (I'm assuming some kind of arcane caster or rogue since they have neither healing nor HP with which to help the party). If they're tired of that choice, and want to play a meatshield so they can charge in swinging, they should talk to the DM about killing off their current character and letting them have a meatshield instead. None of that gives them the right to play your character, because that's your job.

[Sith_Happens]

Repeat after me: "I am a Cleric, not some piece of meat with a holy symbol and a spell component pouch for you to use at your leisure."

(Okay, probably not really, but every time I read the thread title I can't help but mentally insert "sex" before "object" for some reason so naturally it didn't take long for me to come up with the above line.:smallwink:)

[Nobot]

So ok, I am sticking up for myself when the particular fellow most of you all are focused on tries to "help"

Since I've told him several times that I don't need his help ect ect, you're all suggesting I should complain about him to someone else at the table so that that other person might call him out on it if/when he does it again? (That still sits a little bit funny with me to be honest).


Isn't it more getting into the realm of talking to the DM if he does it again? You all clearly feel it's a bigger problem than I do. (he's only had 2 instances of this problem, with 1 minor annoyance that I chose to completely ignore beyond a flat "no").

To me, it sounds like these guys are displaying some very typical behaviour for some people in (new) groups; they are trying to display dominance and leadership. It is likely that they aren't (or hardly) aware of this behaviour.

In my book, the need to display dominance and leadership in a loud (and obnoxious way) comes from being unsure of one's position in a group (and generally: insecurity). My opinion is that there are these 5 options:

You can try to remedy the situation by defending yourself ("don't tell me what to do"), but that might fuel their unconscious fire because their 'authority' and dominance is being disputed.
You can try to take away their insecurity by getting to know them personally (although it is likely that, while these guys may be friendly one-on-one, the group dynamics trigger their obnoxious behaviour and it will persist).
You can try to take away their insecurity by giving them what they want (i.e. raise the issue in the group that 'we need a leader, I propose obnoxious guy number 1 or 2'). This might give them a) authority and b) a feeling of responsibility that might change the way they play for the better.
Ignore it and/or joke about it.
You can try to go on the offensive: get confrontational in the group. Not just just by telling them "don't tell me what to do", but by explaining to them that you find their behaviour rather obnoxious and you are not having fun because of it. If it turns ugly, leave the group (if they dont).


I am aware that option number 5 is nasty. It will screw up a session, create tension and awkwardness all around and will mean that little fun shall be had that day. But, to be honest, I don't think you're having a lot of fun with this game as it is now... (And the same may be true for the other players or the game master.) Personally, I would choose option number 5, because I am not very patient with this type of guy.

[prufock]

You can try to go on the offensive: get confrontational in the group. Not just just by telling them "don't tell me what to do", but by explaining to them that you find their behaviour rather obnoxious and you are not having fun because of it. If it turns ugly, leave the group (if they dont).

I am aware that option number 5 is nasty.

I don't agree. This isn't nasty, it's assertive, and if people are uncomfortable with assertiveness, it's really their problem.

Jackass #2: "Durrrr, you can't cast that spell, it has a casting time of 10 minutes, durrrr."
You: "Again? No it doesn't. You keep trying to pick out mistakes I'm making, when I haven't actually made any. I can play my own character, and I don't appreciate you butting in, thanks."

That's not nasty, it's just standing up for yourself.

[cobaltstarfire]

Well there is supposed to be a game tonight (actually I'm not sure, the store's weekly schedule doesn't have the game listed...and has two other events planned during the time, but it is still listed on wizards website as having a game planned). The DM didn't say anything about there being no game this week either...


I shall report back how things go...if there is a game at all, I think it should go ok though given all the different advice you've given me. It's given me a lot to think about, and that makes it much easier for me to approach the situation.

[JusticeZero]

Well, let us know how it goes. I always wonder in a lot of these cases if things ever got better.
I tend to have some concern in crowds of neanderthals when I see female characters who look like they have huge heals, because it's just one more thing that idiots think they're entitled to. :smallbiggrin: I end up slipping in a bunch of Ms. Darklie Doomdottir twitches to compensate.

[cobaltstarfire]

Well we did end up having a game, and it went fine I think there's a couple of reasons for it.

For one I made certain to change my proximity to the DM. At past games I was always at the furthest end from the table. I had asked about the back room, but apparently that particular DM basically has the back room on perma reserved. Before the game started I also reminded everyone that I only have 2 spells, two count them *holds up two fingers* and they're mine.

I told the DM I would really appreciate it if I could sit near him because I have trouble hearing. The proximity change moved me away from "Helpful" and put me where I could make direct eye contact with "Bossy" (My druid pal wasn't there that night)

Being able to make eye contact with Bossy left him not as Bossy, being further away from Helpful made him try to help everyone, and he got called out for it multiple times. Being closer to the DM made it easier for me to participate.

There were some problems with Bossy, and thinking back on it, I think part of it was a power struggle. It eventually reached a point where it went from me trying to be reasonable, to me threatening PVP because he had started doing things IC that my character wouldn't stand for (looting civilians we are supposed to be protecting, ect). Being able to make eye contact with him helped get my points across to him. He'd also been called a jerk basically twice (once by one of the other players, and once by myself).

Once I made it clear that my character would fight his to prevent desecration of those we were meant to be protecting, he stopped behaving as poorly and was a better team player in general.

I also made a conscious decision to try and remember to give people buffs if I could. Helpful LOVED it when I blessed him. (although Bossy had some really nasty IC things to say...which he was called out on as being too extreme, he also never used his bless and sulked for at least half of the night). I'm probably going to make a habit of giving Helpful guidance buffs since he seems to just obsessively want to hog resources it like makes him happy...so I'll give him one that isn't a drain.

I've been able to speak to just about everyone on equal ground for the most part, and Helpful has backed off (or rather because I'm not close he now is spreading his habit to everyone at the table). He got told to let people play their character by the DM on one occasion when he was trying to correct me (incorrectly again).

I think I may have to be constantly firm with Bossy, his character is arrogant taken up to 11, but he as a person is also a bit arrogant I am learning. He can't handle people making jokes about rolling all the 20's out of their dice or putting them in time out for consistent bad rolls without getting all huffy and superior to let us know that that's not how dice work. (he's in school to be an engineer of some sort).

I think I had a good night though, it was nice not having Helpful constantly looking over my shoulder and trying to "help". I could do without the hateful In character behavior from Bossy, but I don't think we'll see any more of that from him after tonight.

[Lord Torath]

Woo hoo! Great to hear things are working out well for you! We get all these horror stories on the board, and it's great to hear that you can improve things! (Have I used enough exclamation points yet? I'll throw one more in for good measure.) Hope things continue to go well for you!

[Segev]

Glad to hear things went better! It sounds like you've got the way to work with your group's dynamics, and there're at least some good people there, so things will hopefully go smoother from here on out.

He can't handle people making jokes about rolling all the 20's out of their dice or putting them in time out for consistent bad rolls without getting all huffy and superior to let us know that that's not how dice work. (he's in school to be an engineer of some sort).

Speaking as an engineer who went to a college full of engineers who all are obsessive about these kinds of things, even those of us who know full well how probability works will fall - half jokingly - into dice rituals of our own. It's just part of being a gamer. It sounds like he's more curmudgeon - no offense to our own board's Curmudgeon - than engineer.

[Jay R]

He can't handle people making jokes about rolling all the 20's out of their dice or putting them in time out for consistent bad rolls without getting all huffy and superior to let us know that that's not how dice work. (he's in school to be an engineer of some sort).

The correct answer to somebody acting superior is to match him at it. With your warmest, most friendly smile, respond with, "Yes, we know that's not how dice work. That's how humor works."

Do this every time. Eventually, he will complain about it, and you can finally say, "Oh, you don't like people doing that? OK, let's both stop doing it."

[Daishain]

Speaking as an engineer who went to a college full of engineers who all are obsessive about these kinds of things, even those of us who know full well how probability works will fall - half jokingly - into dice rituals of our own. It's just part of being a gamer. It sounds like he's more curmudgeon - no offense to our own board's Curmudgeon - than engineer.
Also an engineer, and seconded. I like to threaten mine with a trip to the furnace if they fudge important rolls. :smalltongue:

The fact that the first d20 I ever bought literally rolled a one 6 times in a row might have something to do with the start of that tradition.

[cobaltstarfire]

Most of my friends went on to be engineers of some sort, so I know that not all you engineering sorts are sticks in the mud over things like that. :smallsmile: I think him being a young engineer he may just be very proud of it and wants to somehow express it.

I looked the guy right in the eyes and said something along the lines "You know we don't think those things right?" or something equally (or more) awkward sounding, he seemed surprised. He did join in with the silly dice talk towards the end of the night, he had been on a cold streak almost all night (rarely rolled better than a 10), and I think he started to understand why we were joking he should put that d20 into time out.

[Segev]

Minor sidetrack: When I have a string of bad luck with suspiciously close-together rolls on a die, I will often pick up a second one (easily distinguished) and call which one "counts" before I throw them both. This often changes my apparent luck. I suspect the actual mechanism is that the second die's presence is jostling the first's positioning in my hand and making sure it actually gets a bit more randomized. I'm probably rolling it in a way that's keeping the same side up before doing that.

[cobaltstarfire]

That's actually something I suspect too, sometimes it seems like people "flop" their dice. When this happens the dice don't really roll much if at all and often have a streak of landing on the same batch of numbers. Although I don't know if that's just observation bias or not. I always feel better about a die roll in general when it's rolled rather than "flopped". (and I don't care if that's how dice work or not :smallbiggrin:)

[Jay R]

Dice are manufactured to produce random numbers. Games use them to produce random numbers. People roll them for the purpose of generating random numbers. That’s the only function they have.

That’s why there is so much interest in treating them like they aren’t random.

[Sith_Happens]

TL;DR: Thread about character being treated as object turns into discussion of treating dice like people.

[Segev]

Dice are manufactured to produce random numbers. Games use them to produce random numbers. People roll them for the purpose of generating random numbers. That’s the only function they have.

That’s why there is so much interest in treating them like they aren’t random.

I assure you that it is perfectly possible to take dice designed by their creator(s) to be fair and roll them in ways that skew the results. The methods for doing so are often at least a bit difficult, and easy to spot if not done with skilled sleight of hand, but it can be done.

[Nobot]

TL;DR: Thread about character being treated as object turns into discussion of treating dice like people.

So true.

Glad it worked out!

[WarKitty]

I assure you that it is perfectly possible to take dice designed by their creator(s) to be fair and roll them in ways that skew the results. The methods for doing so are often at least a bit difficult, and easy to spot if not done with skilled sleight of hand, but it can be done.

They also tend to be more difficult the bigger numerically the die is. I can spin a d6 with reasonable accuracy, but not a d20.

[Jay R]

TL;DR: Thread about character being treated as object turns into discussion of treating dice like people.

Well, let's get back to the original topic, without dropping the hew one.

"My dice are treating me like an object."

[Marlowe]

Have you tried talking to them and explaining how this makes you feel?

[Gravitron5000]

Also an engineer, and seconded. I like to threaten mine with a trip to the furnace if they fudge important rolls. :smalltongue:
...

TL;DR: Thread about character being treated as object turns into discussion of treating dice like people.

I certainly hope not :smallbiggrin:

[Jay R]

Have you tried talking to them and explaining how this makes you feel?

Well, yes, but I rolled a 1 on my Diplomacy check. It's impossible to have an effective, serious talk when the dice are against you.

[nedz]

Have you tried talking to them and explaining how this makes you feel?

Talking to who ? The Dice, or the other Players ? :smallconfused:

[Jay R]

Talking to who ? The Dice, or the other Players ? :smallconfused:

The dice, of course. Aren't you following the thread? We're treating the players like objects. We're treating the dice like people.