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Erk
2007-03-12, 02:59 AM
From our perspectives, Stanley's comment in Erf31 is a stupid one. However, I think that might not be the case from Stanley's, or from an Erfworlder's.

Consider this: Stanley is a warlord in a strategy game. He is not some bloke on Earth.

What happens when you are winning Civilisation 2? Or Warlords? Or any strategy game? Do the other civilisations smile at you and let you continue to win? Or do they band together in an all-out attempt to wipe you from the game?

In a strategy game, being ignored means you are too far from success for the other factions to consider you a threat. Being attacked from all sides does not necessarily mean you fail at diplomacy, although that is a factor: it means you are the one the other factions fear the most. You could be good or evil, it really doesn't matter in a strategy game. Stanley is right in that as well.

I don't think Ansom would have any need for the alliance he has if Stanley was not on the route to the end-game.

Of course, Stanely makes no claims to being the "good guy" but he is, I think, correct in saying that being attacked from all sides "is a sign of greatness".

KillerCardinal
2007-03-12, 08:28 PM
From our perspectives, Stanley's comment in Erf31 is a stupid one. However, I think that might not be the case from Stanley's, or from an Erfworlder's.

Consider this: Stanley is a warlord in a strategy game. He is not some bloke on Earth.

What happens when you are winning Civilisation 2? Or Warlords? Or any strategy game? Do the other civilisations smile at you and let you continue to win? Or do they band together in an all-out attempt to wipe you from the game?

In a strategy game, being ignored means you are too far from success for the other factions to consider you a threat. Being attacked from all sides does not necessarily mean you fail at diplomacy, although that is a factor: it means you are the one the other factions fear the most. You could be good or evil, it really doesn't matter in a strategy game. Stanley is right in that as well.

I don't think Ansom would have any need for the alliance he has if Stanley was not on the route to the end-game.

Of course, Stanely makes no claims to being the "good guy" but he is, I think, correct in saying that being attacked from all sides "is a sign of greatness".

I do think you have a point, but I just have to mention that in Civ iv, my favorite way of winning actually requires everybody not to be after you. The diplomatic win option. :smallbiggrin:

However, any other type of win, will DEFINATELY have everyone after ya, especially the space ship. Actually, that could almost be seen as a parellel for collecting the arkentools. And the closer you get to having them all, the more enemies attack. Definately have a good point there.

Warpfire
2007-03-12, 10:07 PM
The only problem is, if Stanley is on the path to victory, he should be in a good position, with many holdings/conquered cities/etc.

Instead, he's holed up in his capital city, which is also his only city, making a desparate last stand.

Brickwall
2007-03-12, 10:12 PM
Posters 0 and 2 make excellent points.

KillerCardinal
2007-03-12, 10:57 PM
The only problem is, if Stanley is on the path to victory, he should be in a good position, with many holdings/conquered cities/etc.

Instead, he's holed up in his capital city, which is also his only city, making a desparate last stand.

All depends on the "win" condition. If gaining the arkentools is the object(i.e. ultimate power) then the amount of castles you have might not matter. I'm reminded of a game of Heroes III I played at one point where I needed the grail to win, and ignored my defense in order to get the grail. I won with one castle left. Now how that would work if the game didn't suddenly end and declare me the winner, I don't know. I probably would have died, but anyway.... :smallbiggrin:

Warpfire
2007-03-13, 11:07 AM
All depends on the "win" condition. If gaining the arkentools is the object(i.e. ultimate power) then the amount of castles you have might not matter. I'm reminded of a game of Heroes III I played at one point where I needed the grail to win, and ignored my defense in order to get the grail. I won with one castle left. Now how that would work if the game didn't suddenly end and declare me the winner, I don't know. I probably would have died, but anyway.... :smallbiggrin:

Hmm, that is true. Its possible that all Stanley needs are the Arkentools, and once he has those he'll be so powerful that nothing else will matter. In that scenario, he might well be close to winning.

Silverlocke980
2007-03-13, 12:01 PM
I think the reason we disagree with Stanley is because our legends and lore dictate that "everyone hates the bad guy". That's not necessarily true- Hitler was really well-liked by his people, after all (they voted for him!)- but in our video games and the like, it's always a coalition of good guys fighting the bad.

In the real world, that isn't always how it happens. Stanley is generally correct in his speech on "everyone's out to get the big guy". Ansom's coalition is too bloody diverse for anything other than a strongly shared goal to bring them together- he's got Woodsy Elves, Vampires, and a unicorn-riding Jetstone warrior under his banner, after all- and this all indicates Stanley actually is a threat. If he wasn't, a coalition that big would never work, unless the members were very alike culturally. And I bloody well suspect that Vampires and Overeager Elves have all that much in common.

This could get interesting.

Flakey
2007-03-13, 03:29 PM
The only problem is, if Stanley is on the path to victory, he should be in a good position, with many holdings/conquered cities/etc.


Well he did start with 11 cities and the only person (so far) that can use an arkentool effectively.

mport2004
2007-03-13, 03:42 PM
It is hard to go up aginst half or more of the world unless (like in most of my civ 4 games) you have a large enough stockpile of nukes to wipe everything off of the face of the planet at the first sign of trouble. And how defended/populated/important were these citys?

Tyrmadris
2007-03-13, 06:02 PM
[Scrubbed]

At any rate, back to Erf. In most turn-based strategy I've played, generally the 'win by clever trick' method only occurs in situations where I've completely dominated the map, anyway (I fondly remember being elected Galactic President numerous times in Master of Orion 2 only to refuse it and then take the position by force). As for real-time strategy, it's a bit different, as there have been many conflicts in Age where I've been partnered with another person in Team FFA and managed to build the necessary Relic to win the game whilst my bud goes all Braveheart with disposable troops. Most likely if such were the scenario, we'd see it here. But the very title of the comic (Battle for Gobwin Knob, not War of Erf) implies there is a LOT more to the war than just this city. So... Yeah. LordHamster will probably bring Stanley's forces to victory and this series will end with them about to go on the offense, to set up the next book/chapter/whatever.

ObadiahtheSlim
2007-03-14, 09:41 AM
Back on topic plzkthx,
The only time Alliances really play out is in team win scenarios. All other games you only enter into an alliance to gain a benefit. Such as to defeat a supperior foe, or to gain an advantage over your ally in the long run (trade alliance). Even loose alliances like "I'll kill you last" only happen if you think that in the end you will be in a better position to finish off your foe.

The only reason why Ansom has such a large alliance is because Stanley posed a threat. His quest for the Arkentools was a threat and so all the other groups had to band together and beat him. Should Stanley fall, the alliance would turn on itself. Should Stanley start raising to power, expect to see defectors.

Grey Watcher
2007-03-14, 10:04 AM
Red Watcher: I would like to remind everyeon involved in this discussion that the discussion of real-world politics is not allowed on these forums. Please confine yourselves to the subject at hand, namely the political situation in Erfworld, and refrain from drawing analogies to the real-world.

Vonriel
2007-03-14, 10:13 AM
All depends on the "win" condition. If gaining the arkentools is the object(i.e. ultimate power) then the amount of castles you have might not matter. I'm reminded of a game of Heroes III I played at one point where I needed the grail to win, and ignored my defense in order to get the grail. I won with one castle left. Now how that would work if the game didn't suddenly end and declare me the winner, I don't know. I probably would have died, but anyway.... :smallbiggrin:


Woah, hey, (other) Heroes of Might and Magic players do exist! And yeah, this may very well be the trend here. In a lot of the more recent turn-based strategies (most notably for me, the civ series) there are quite a few ways to win besides "Raaaaar! Kill 'em all!" I wouldn't be surprised if that was the direction Rob was taking in this.

And even if it wasn't, these people could be the ones who took away the other 10 cities Stanley's nation originally had because he was getting a mite too powerful. We don't know the city disposition in this world, or what defines a 'city'. So I guess I can't really go on with this particular topic, can I?

KillerCardinal
2007-03-14, 12:29 PM
Woah, hey, (other) Heroes of Might and Magic players do exist! And yeah, this may very well be the trend here. In a lot of the more recent turn-based strategies (most notably for me, the civ series) there are quite a few ways to win besides "Raaaaar! Kill 'em all!" I wouldn't be surprised if that was the direction Rob was taking in this.


Yep, to be honest, I've been seeing a lot more parallels to HoMM here than to games like Civ. I don't know enough about wargaming to really give an opinion on that, but from what I know, it doesn't seem to fit most wargaming either. Thus thats where I've been drawing most of my parralels from.:smallbiggrin:

Vonriel
2007-03-14, 10:07 PM
Same, but the HoMM series tends to only have like 4 different methods of victory: Grail, Kill 'em All, Kill Hero, Take Town. The arkentools, since they're more than 1, don't really fit, but the space program does, so that's why I used the Civ reference there. Sorry for being somewhat ambiguous on what I meant.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-03-18, 12:43 PM
Perhaps Relics in Age of Empire is the best match.