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nonsi

2014-09-23, 05:16 PM

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The seeds for this race began long ago in the days when I was part of a BECMI D&D group.
Back then, materials outside core were very rear and gazetteer #3 (The Principalities of Glantri), where they wrote about this deadly magical root that can be animated, had really stirred our imagination.
Well, I thought to myself, "if the root is alive, why can't it by animated into life instead of a construct? let's make something entirely different and with multiple purposes"

So, this is what's been cooking in my mind for a long time, mixed with stuff I gathered from other people's works, to take the following form.
Tell me what you think.

Mandrake

Mandrakes are commonly thought to be plant creatures that were created to be an approximation of humanoids, much like a homunculus. However, mandrakes are products of nature, in that they sprung from the lands themselves, vitalized by the sun and the magic in the soil.
Mandrakes are extremely rare beings, formed only when a wondering fey spirit passes in the proximity of a Mandragora – a poisonous magical root – during a surge of powerful magical energies with multiple effect (e.g. the activation of a gate / prismatic wall / storm of vengeance spell), and even then, there's only 5% for this transformation to occur.

Physical Description
Mandrakes appear as a humanoid fashioned root, roughly of Halfling height and weight.
They are capable of wearing clothing fitted for a humanoid.
Mandrakes are not separated into males and females. There's no such thing as Mandrake Ecology. Despite this, mandrakes are given an outward gender appearance, though occasionally a mandrake will look like neither. Their skin is a deep reddish-black or blueish-black.
Unlike most other plant creatures. They have capillaries that pump their poisonous blood, eyes to see, and teeth and stomachs to digest food.
Mandrakes are Fey with the Plant subtype.

Personality
For plants, mandrakes are surprisingly emotional and hot-headed. However, they mellow and relax just as often, simply ignoring others rather than dealing with the fuss.
Folk often describe mandrakes as "terse", "sour" or "grumpy", but that distinction varies from individual to individual.

Alignment
Mandrakes rarely muster the motivation to fight for good, evil or law, doing what they please.
As such, they are most likely Chaotic Neutral, but may be of any alignment.

Names
Mandrakes prefer using classical Sylvan names, albeit shorter ones. They don't carry a lot of importance on names, and will respond to much of anything, as long as it isn't an insult. A mandrake might often be simply called Root, Bulb, Tuber or Plant.

Zero-level HP: 8
Racial Traits
• Ability Modifiers: Dex -2, Con +2, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha -2. A Mandrake is tough and bears the wisdom of the earth; however, it is stolid and inflexible (both physically and mentally), and finds it hard to relate to other, quick-blooded races.
• Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
• Base land speed: 20'. Mandrakes can also slowly burrow through soil, but not through rock, at a rate of 5' / round as a 1-round action. They can dig themselves out from up to 5' of soil they dug themselves into in a single move action.
• Earthen Rest (Ex): While submerged underground, mandrakes heal 1 HP per minute and 1 ability damage per 10 minutes.
• Sustenance: Mandrakes don't sleep. Mandrakes breathe, but much slower than flesh creatures. They can hold their breath 10 times longer than humans and take 10 times longer to drown. Mandrakes can feed off of plant remains, but greatly prefer sustenance via Earthen Rest, from which they gain restorative benefits.
• Vision: Low-light.
• Immunities: poison, sleep effects and paralysis.
• +4 on saves against stunning and mind-affecting effects and polymorph.
• Light Fortification (Ex): Mandrakes are difficult to wound and resist attacks that target vital areas. Whenever a mandrake is subject to precision damage, there's 25% chance that the precision damage doesn't apply.
• Cold Resistance: 5.
• Vulnerability to Fire (Ex): A mandrake takes half again as much damage as normal (+50%) from fire.
• Poisonous Constitution (Ex): A mandrake itself is quite toxic. Mandrake's blood is an ingested poison. Any creature that scores a bite attack on the mandrake is treated as ingesting the poison, taking an initial 1d2 Con damage and Paralysis a minute later as secondary damage lasting 1d6+1 rounds - Fort save vs. DC [10 + ½ the mandrake's HD + Con-mod]. Ingesting a mandrake whole (with the Swallow Whole ability) is treated as a successful bite attack every time the mandrake takes damage within the creature's stomach.
• Death Shriek (Ex): When slain, a mandrake ends its life in a terrible cry, as it shrivels up. Everyone within 20' of the mandrake takes 1d6 psychic damage per HD of the mandrake. Any creature whose HD total 10 less than that of the mandrake must make a Fort save vs. DC [/B][10 + ½ the mandrake's HD + Con-mod] [/B] or die. Mandrakes are naturally resistant to this effect.
• Automatic Languages: Sylvan, Common. Bonus Languages: Any.
• LA: +1

Sidebar: MANDRAGORA Root

A diminutive poisonous magical plant whose purplish-white root grows in the shape of a male or female human body, with a thick batch of bladelike leaves sprouting from its "head".
It is dangerous to harvest, since when pulled out of the ground it emits a horrifying shriek which can be fatal to those within earshot. Consequently it is relatively rare.

Price: 500gp.
Poison: Ingested DC 19
Initial Effect: +2 alchemical bonus to effective CL for 1 hour.
Secondary Effect: 1d4+1 points of Con-damage.
Overdose: If more than one dose is taken in an 8-hour period, the user must make a Will save vs. DC 19 or become incapacitated with fear, cowering for 1d8 hours (unable to take actions, -2 AC, loses Dex-bonus to AC)

Harvesting a Mandragora Root
Mandragora roots grow only in dank swamps and dark, hazardous places. They are notorious for the piercing scream they emit when uprooted.
What most people familiar with this plant don't know, is that there's a way to harvest it safely, by carefully digging around the root, avoiding uprooting it or ripping its leaves off.
Even when safely harvested, when the root dies for any reason (dehydration/cutting/crushing...) it emits the same death shriek.

Knowledge (nature) DC 24: You recognize the Mandragora root by its leaves.
Trigger: When the Mandragora root is uprooted. The Mandragora root dies and unleashes a piercing scream which tears into the souls of all present.
Effect: Close burst 20'
Damage: 4d6 psychic damage and dazed (save ends).

Debihuman

2014-09-24, 09:36 AM

Is this for 3.0; 3.5, 4.0 pathfinder or your own homebrewed game?

What Type is this creature? Humanoid or Plant? Is there a subtype that should go with it?

Fortification refers to armor not to creatures generally. This is just bad design. You also don't say how much they resist or how often this works. This should be damage reduction.

They have a burrow speed. It should be listed separately from being Small.

Why are you renaming poison as Poisonous constitution? This is as standard ability.

Death Shriek is Death Throes. Don't rename standard abilities. Psychic isn't standard damage type. Do you mean Sonic?

LA is at least +2 if not +3.

Debby

nonsi

2014-09-25, 01:03 PM

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Hey Debihuman.

Once again it seems like you and I are among the handful few here that still have a warm spot in our hearts saved for BECMI D&D.
Nice to know others still do.

Is this for 3.0; 3.5, 4.0 pathfinder or your own homebrewed game?

It's meant for my homebrew codex, but should be 3.5e useable.

What Type is this creature? Humanoid or Plant? Is there a subtype that should go with it?

Fey with the Plant subtype.

Fortification refers to armor not to creatures generally. This is just bad design. You also don't say how much they resist or how often this works. This should be damage reduction.

Fortification is a trait I've seen assigned to creatures before, so it's not unheard of.
DR applies to normal hits whereas Fortification means that its harder to target your vital spots.
Given that Mandrakes are part plant, they have less discernible anatomies to target.
And, AFAIK, most homebrewers know that Light Fortification means 25% chance of ignoring precision damage. I'll specify.

They have a burrow speed. It should be listed separately from being Small.

They take a full round to burrow through 5' of dirt. I'm not sure this qualifies in any way as Burrowing Speed.
But yes, I'll separate size from speed.

Why are you renaming poison as Poisonous constitution? This is as standard ability.

I think I'll name it "Poisonous Blood".
It's not "Poison" because they can't use their poisonous blood for attacking.

Death Shriek is Death Throes. Don't rename standard abilities. Psychic isn't standard damage type. Do you mean Sonic?

Death Throes (http://dndtools.eu/spells/planar-handbook--79/death-throes--2188/) is a force effect.
The proposed feature is neither force nor sonic effect.
Also, "Psychic Strike" is a standard attack of the Soulknife class, so I see nothing particularly unusual about it.
If you've seen "Babylon 5" series, then the most accurate way to describe Death Shriek is to imagine the battle cry of one of the shadows' battle cruisers amplified tremendously at close range.

LA is at least +2 if not +3.

Volodni from Unapproachable East is LA +2.
Volodni has neutral ability modifiers while Mandrake has negative ability modifiers.
Volodni has faster movement.
Volodni has +4 Hide modifier in natural environments.
Volodni is immune to stun and polymmorph, whereas Mandrake only has save modifiers.
Volodni is totally immune to precision damage, whereas Mandrake has only 25% immunity.

Also, given that Death Shriek is a 2-edged-sword, affecting friend as well as foe, the Mamdrake's only real advantage over the Volodni its poisonous blood.
Everything else is the same.

I sincerely doubt poisonous blood cancels out all the advantages mentioned above.

Debihuman

2014-09-26, 06:44 PM

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Hey Debihuman.

Once again it seems like you and I are among the handful few here that still have a warm spot in our hearts saved for BECMI D&D.
Nice to know others still do.

I actually like 3.5 the best so updating the older stuff is kinda fun for me.

It's meant for my homebrew codex, but should be 3.5e useable.

Okay that makes it a little easier.

Fey with the Plant subtype.

Race should be listed in Racial Traits. Normally Plant is not a subtype. If this is a homebrew subtype then you should include that as well. Either these are Fey with some plant-like qualities or they are Plants with fey-like qualities.

Fortification is a trait I've seen assigned to creatures before, so it's not unheard of. And generally it's a bad design. Unless the creature is a construct and even then it probably shouldn't have it.

Fortification is actually a magical enhancement for armor.
Fortification
This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.

Fortification Type Chance for Normal Damage Base Price Modifier
Light 25% +1 bonus
Moderate 75% +3 bonus
Heavy 100% +5 bonus
Strong abjuration; CL 13th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, limited wish or miracle; Price varies (see above).

Yes, I seen people try to translate that as a monster feature. I'm not a fan of it because they generally do it badly.

Plants are immune to critical hits in the first place.

Since you brought up the Volodnis, you know it's written as "Half-Damage from Piercing" as the name of the Special Ability. hence you should follow suit. It would be called Quarter Damage from Precision-Based Damage. Precision damage isn't well defined but it includes Critical hits, the sneak attack of rogues and a few other sources. A good designer doesn't make people guess or assume that everyone knows the rules.

DR applies to normal hits whereas Fortification means that its harder to target your vital spots. That's the description of Fortification but what it means is that you take less damage from precision-based damage, which translates to critical hits and sneak attacks.

Given that Mandrakes are part plant, they have less discernible anatomies to target.
And, AFAIK, most homebrewers know that Light Fortification means 25% chance of ignoring precision damage. I'll specify. Even you got that wrong. light fortification means 25% chance of ignoring a critical hit or sneak attack, not all precision-based damage.

They take a full round to burrow through 5' of dirt. I'm not sure this qualifies in any way as Burrowing Speed.
But yes, I'll separate size from speed. This is actually pointless. Why does it burrow? And if it can why hamstring it to make it a full-round action instead of a normal move action?

I think I'll name it "Poisonous Blood".
It's not "Poison" because they can't use their poisonous blood for attacking. Just because it's only an ingested poison doesn't mean it isn't an "attack." It's still a poison if someone or something bites it. It doesn't mean it is a new thing at all. It won't come up often the way you have it written, but it's no different from any other ingested poison.

Poison, regardless of how it works, is a standard monster ability. Why wouldn't a mandrake carry vials of its blood (sap?) to pour into its enemies' drinks?

[quote]Death Throes (http://dndtools.eu/spells/planar-handbook--79/death-throes--2188/) is a force effect.
The proposed feature is neither force nor sonic effect.
Also, "Psychic Strike" is a standard attack of the Soulknife class, so I see nothing particularly unusual about it.
If you've seen "Babylon 5" series, then the most accurate way to describe Death Shriek is to imagine the battle cry of one of the shadows' battle cruisers amplified tremendously at close range.

You are confusing the Spell with the Special Ability. See Frost Worm for an example of the Special Ability of Death Throes.

Death Throes (Ex): When killed, a frost worm turns to ice and shatters in an explosion that deals 12d6 points of cold damage and 8d6 points of piercing damage to everything within 100 feet (Reflex half DC 22). The save DC is Constitution-based.

This is a standard monster ability. No force damage involved.

Here it is using the names of standard special abilities. See Lizardfolk's Hold Breath for example.

lso, "Psychic Strike" is a standard attack of the Soulknife class, so I see nothing particularly unusual about it.
If you've seen "Babylon 5" series, then the most accurate way to describe Death Shriek is to imagine the battle cry of one of the shadows' battle cruisers amplified tremendously at close range. But the damage type is UNTYPED not psychic.

Since Sustenance now has no game mechanics, I've removed it. If they are vegetarians that belongs in the creature's description. If they are sickened by eating meat, then it would be a racial trait as that is a game mechanic. If they required 1/4 the amount of food and water of Humans, that would be a game mechanic but the way you had it written there weren't any specific game mechanics.

Mandrake Racial Traits

Ability Modifiers: Dex -2, Con +2, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha -2. A mandrake is tough and bears the wisdom of the earth; however, it is stolid and inflexible (both physically and mentally), and finds it hard to relate to other, quick-blooded races.
Small: As a Small creature, a mandrake gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
Type: Mandrakes are Fey creatures with many plant-like traits.
Base land speed: 20 feet. Mandrakes can also burrow through soil, but not through rock, at a rate of 5 feet.
Death Throes (Ex): When slain, a mandrake ends its life in a terrible cry, as it shrivels up. Everyone within 20 feet of the mandrake takes 1d6 points of damage per HD of the mandrake. Any creature whose Hit Dice total 10 less than that of the mandrake must make a Fortitude save or die. The save DC is 10 + ½ the mandrake's HD + the mandrake's Constitution modifier. Mandrakes are naturally resistant to this effect. [How much of a racial bonus to the save do mandrakes have?]
Earthen Rest (Ex): While submerged underground, mandrakes heal 1 hit point per minute and 1 point of ability damage per 10 minutes.
Hold Breath (Ex): Mandrakes can hold their breath for 10x their Constitution modifier.
Immunities: poison, sleep effects and paralysis.
Low-light Vision (Ex).
+4 racial bonus on saves against stunning and mind-affecting effects and polymorph.
Quarter Damage from Precision-Based Damage (Ex): Mandrakes are difficult to wound and resist attacks that target vital areas, such as critical hits and rogue's sneak attack. Whenever a mandrake is subject to precision damage, there's 25% chance that the precision damage doesn't apply.
Poison (Ex): A mandrake itself is quite toxic. Mandrake's blood is an ingested poison. Any creature that scores a bite attack on the mandrake is treated as ingesting the poison, taking an initial 1d2 points of initial Constitution damage and Paralysis a minute later as secondary damage, lasting 1d6+1 rounds. A successful Fortitude save negates the damage. The Save DC is 10 + ½ the mandrake's Hit Dice +the mandrake's Constitution modifier. Ingesting a mandrake whole (with the Swallow Whole ability) is treated as a successful bite attack every time the mandrake takes damage within the creature's stomach.
Resistance to Cold 5 (Ex).
Vulnerability to Fire (Ex): A mandrake takes half again as much damage as normal (+50%) from fire.
Automatic Languages: Sylvan, Common. Bonus Languages: Any except secret languages.
LA: +3

At high levels, this is a walking bomb and it can be raised. Also, there are plenty of creative and clever ways to use its poison. You are severely underestimating this creature's capabilities.

Debby

nonsi

2014-09-27, 12:53 PM

I actually like 3.5 the best so updating the older stuff is kinda fun for me.

So do I. That's why my codex revolves around 3.5e.

Race should be listed in Racial Traits. Normally Plant is not a subtype. If this is a homebrew subtype then you should include that as well. Either these are Fey with some plant-like qualities or they are Plants with fey-like qualities.

Ok.
But how is "Fey creatures with many plant-like traits" more informative than "Fey with the Plant subtype"?

And generally it's a bad design. Unless the creature is a construct and even then it probably shouldn't have it.

. . .

Fortification is actually a magical enhancement for armor.

. . .

Yes, I seen people try to translate that as a monster feature. I'm not a fan of it because they generally do it badly.

. . .

Plants are immune to critical hits in the first place.

Since you brought up the Volodnis, you know it's written as "Half-Damage from Piercing" as the name of the Special Ability. hence you should follow suit. It would be called Quarter Damage from Precision-Based Damage. Precision damage isn't well defined but it includes Critical hits, the sneak attack of rogues and a few other sources. A good designer doesn't make people guess or assume that everyone knows the rules.

. . .

That's the description of Fortification but what it means is that you take less damage from precision-based damage, which translates to critical hits and sneak attacks.

. . .

Even you got that wrong. light fortification means 25% chance of ignoring a critical hit or sneak attack, not all precision-based damage.

It's actually Three-Quarters Damage
I'll just go with the following:
Resistance to Precision-Based Damage (Ex): Mandrakes are difficult to wound and resist attacks that target vital areas, such as critical hits and rogue's sneak attack. Whenever a mandrake is subject to precision damage, there's 25% chance that the precision damage doesn't apply.

This is actually pointless. Why does it burrow? And if it can why hamstring it to make it a full-round action instead of a normal move action?

It burrows to extract nutrients from the soil, not for any mechanical combat benefits.
Having burrowing speed is a tactical combat advantage that I have no interest in, since it pushes things toward higher LA and it thematically inappropriate in my view.

Just because it's only an ingested poison doesn't mean it isn't an "attack." It's still a poison if someone or something bites it. It doesn't mean it is a new thing at all. It won't come up often the way you have it written, but it's no different from any other ingested poison.

Poison, regardless of how it works, is a standard monster ability. Why wouldn't a mandrake carry vials of its blood (sap?) to pour into its enemies' drinks?

Ok, I'll admit I missed that loophole.
I'll just state that a Mandrake's poison decomposes 3 rounds after leaving its body, rendering its tactical usage null and void.

You are confusing the Spell with the Special Ability. See Frost Worm for an example of the Special Ability of Death Throes.

. . .

This is a standard monster ability. No force damage involved.

. . .

But the damage type is UNTYPED not psychic.

First of all, my codex rejects any and all UNTYPED <WHATEVER>.

Second...
Psychic Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm#psychicStrike): "As a move action, a soulknife of 3rd level or higher can imbue his mind blade with destructive psychic energy. This effect deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to the next living, nonmindless target he successfully hits with a melee attack (or ranged attack, if he is using the throw mind blade ability). Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to psychic strike damage."

Third, it's similar to Psychic Strike, but instead the mind, it pierces the very soul of all surrounding targets.
Soulless monsters ignore this attack. All others take damage.
I reserve myself the liberty of my own interpretation of this Mandrake feature. There's no right or wrong here.

Here it is using the names of standard special abilities. See Lizardfolk's Hold Breath for example.

Ok, I find your "Hold Breath" description adequate.

Since Sustenance now has no game mechanics, I've removed it. If they are vegetarians that belongs in the creature's description. If they are sickened by eating meat, then it would be a trait. If they required 1/4 the amount of food and water of Humans, that would be a game mechanic but the way you had it written there weren't any specific game mechanics.

"Sickened by eating meat" sounds accurate to me.

[How much of a racial bonus to the save do mandrakes have?]

A fair question indeed.
To explain this, I'll note that I'm a subscriber of the "ecological dungeon" notion.
My intent was that they are immune to it, effectively counting as soulless specifically vs. this effect.
Since there's no justification for two mandrakes encountering one another more frequently than once per century, there's no real mechanical purpose here.
This comes to explain why in a place where more than one Mandragora root grows, uprooting one would not cause a destructive chain reaction.

At high levels, this is a walking bomb and it can be raised.

Irrelevant, because a mandrake doesn't benefit from this.

Also, there are plenty of creative and clever ways to use its poison. You are severely underestimating this creature's capabilities.

I believe I've removed the potential for abuse on this one.

Debihuman

2014-09-27, 04:47 PM

But how is "Fey creatures with many plant-like traits" more informative than "Fey with the Plant subtype"?
Because there is no such Subtype in 3.5.

It burrows to extract nutrients from the soil, not for any mechanical combat benefits.
Having burrowing speed is a tactical combat advantage that I have no interest in, since it pushes things toward higher LA and it thematically inappropriate in my view.

Still no game mechanics so that is all fluff and doesn't go under racial traits.

You want to make this a whole lot easier? Fix Earthen Rest so it can submerge as a Standard Action.

Earthen Rest (Ex): As a standard action, a mandrake can submerge itself underground to recuperate. It must hold its breath (see below) while submerged. A submerged mandrake heals 1 hit point per minute submerged and 1 point of ability damage for every 10 minutes submerged. A mandrake can emerge from underground as a swift action.

Psychic Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm#psychicStrike):
Psychic Strike (Su)
As a move action, a soulknife of 3rd level or higher can imbue his mind blade with destructive psychic energy. This effect deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to the next living, nonmindless target he successfully hits with a melee attack (or ranged attack, if he is using the throw mind blade ability). Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to psychic strike damage. (Unlike the rogue’s sneak attack, the psychic strike is not precision damage and can affect creatures otherwise immune to extra damage from critical hits or more than 30 feet away, provided they are living, nonmindless creatures not immune to mind-affecting effects.)

1d8 points of untyped damage not psychic damage. Adding a new damage type is unfair unless you plan to add resistance to psychic damage to the game. But hey I'm just pointing out the mechanics.1

"Sickened by eating meat" sounds accurate to me.
Feel free to add it. Just needs a duration.

A fair question indeed.
Leaving it up to you to answer.

One other thing. Since they burrow so slowly, how long does it take for them to submerge themselves to use their Earthen Rest ability and can they actually hold their breath long enough to benefit from it and still emerge? This is why having a burrow speed matters. if they can't submerge [how far do they have to burrow to be considered submerged?], hold their breath for 10 minutes, and then emerge within the limits of Hold Breath,, this ability is useless. There is no point to hamstringing this. I don't really recommend giving a creature or PC a Special Ability it can't use. If you giveth with one hand and taketh away with the other, all you end up doing is annoying the people who would want to play this as a race.

Debby
1 The only kind of damage that ALL creatures and races have to take is scalding damage. See Environment.

Boiling water deals 1d6 points of scalding damage, unless the character is fully immersed, in which case it deals 10d6 points of damage per round of exposure. It's probably the rarest damage type in the game and no creature is resistance to scalding damage. Sadly this rule is so obscure that nobody sees it and just assumes boiling water is fire damage, like lava. Pity. On the other hand, it's a pretty stupid damage type since creatures resistant and immune to freaking lava should be immune to scalding damage too, but hey, I don't write for WotC.

nonsi

2014-09-27, 06:33 PM

Because there is no such Subtype in 3.5.

Ok, what if I made it Plant with the Fey subtype?
Since Killoren are of the Fey subtype, I believe this should work.

Still no game mechanics so that is all fluff and doesn't go under racial traits.

You want to make this a whole lot easier? Fix Earthen Rest so it can submerge as a Standard Action.

Earthen Rest (Ex): As a standard action, a mandrake can submerge itself underground to recuperate. It must hold its breath (see below) while submerged. A submerged mandrake heals 1 hit point per minute submerged and 1 point of ability damage for every 10 minutes submerged. A mandrake can emerge from underground as a swift action.

Nowhere did I say that to benefit from Earthen Rest a mandrake must be submerged in earth without vent-cracks.
I'll be sure to clarify that one.

Your idea of using a standard action to submerge vertically both makes sense and is useful without giving it burrowing speed. I like it.
I just don't think it makes sense or is necessary that it is able to emerge from underground as a swift action. I believe move-action is enough.

I still like the idea, but I don't want to give Mandrakes the battlefield advantage of making it a standard action.

1d8 points of untyped damage not psychic damage. Adding a new damage type is unfair unless you plan to add resistance to psychic damage to the game. But hey I'm just pointing out the mechanics.1

It's a unique effect that nothing else can duplicate, which happens when the creature dies. Unfairness doesn't really seem like an issue to me in this case.
Force effects are untyped and affect everything - period (except a single monster: an epic-level (3.0e) super dragon............ which doesn't exist according to my interpretation of dragons).

Feel free to add it. Just needs a duration.

How about 1d4 hours?

One other thing. Since they burrow so slowly, how long does it take for them to submerge themselves to use their Earthen Rest ability

As noted above: a standard action (they're less than 5' tall).

1 The only kind of damage that ALL creatures and races have to take is scalding damage. See Environment.

It's not scalding damage.
It has no effect on constructs, mindless creatures or creatures that cannot be resurrected.

Debihuman

2014-09-30, 04:16 AM

Ok, what if I made it Plant with the Fey subtype?
Since Killoren are of the Fey subtype, I believe this should work.
Fey is NOT a subtype in 3.5 either. You can look up the Subtypes. If it is "Augmented" then it's original Type is noted but that has other consequences.

A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

BTW don't trust the D&D Wiki, as the Killoren noted there are homebrewed (by someone who didn't understand 3.5 rules in the first place). They are the Fey Type not subtype see Races of the Wild for correct version of these.

This is the correct Killoren Type:

Fey: Killoren are of the fey type and are therefore not affected by spells such as charm person and hold person. Unlike other fey, killoren gain Hit Dice only by acquiring levels in a character class
This is why they have no LA.

Nowhere did I say that to benefit from Earthen Rest a mandrake must be submerged in earth without vent-cracks. I'll be sure to clarify that one. It's implied that being submerged means having to hold your breath. You should note how deep they have to go to be considered, "submerged" so that PCs can't just throw a shovel of dirt on the mandrake and consider that to be sufficient for being "submerged."

Your idea of using a standard action to submerge vertically both makes sense and is useful without giving it burrowing speed. I like it.
I just don't think it makes sense or is necessary that it is able to emerge from underground as a swift action. I believe move-action is enough.

Do whatever you think is best. I suggest you compare to other special abilities.

I still like the idea, but I don't want to give Mandrakes the battlefield advantage of making it a standard action.

Normally using a Special Ability is a standard action.

It's a unique effect that nothing else can duplicate, which happens when the creature dies. Unfairness doesn't really seem like an issue to me in this case.
Force effects are untyped and affect everything - period (except a single monster: an epic-level (3.0e) super dragon............ which doesn't exist according to my interpretation of dragons).

Force is a spell descriptor.
Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on.. It's not a damage type. I'd have to look at this again to see exactly how it works with psionics. Why doesn't this creature have the psionic subtype?

How about 1d4 hours? It's up to you. I'll take a look at it again, once you've made revisions.

As noted above: a standard action (they're less than 5' tall). Okay

It's not scalding damage. I was pointing out that psychic damage isn't a standard type and that the only other instance of non-standard type damage was scalding damage which is noted specifically as such. I quoted from the SRD

It has no effect on constructs, mindless creatures or creatures that cannot be resurrected. So why are Outsiders immune to this? Just curious. If you are actually playing with psionics, then the appropriate designator is (Psi) rather than (Su) and the creature would have the Psionic Subtype.

If you read the text on boiling water, it specifically states creatures take "scalding damage," which of course is probably an error and it should be fire damage. This scalding damage bypasses fire immunity apparently (but only for boiling water not boiling oil or lava, go figure). I think it was just one of those errors, but I've used it to my advantage before. :-)

I look forward to seeing the edited version of the mandrake.

Debby

nonsi

2014-10-01, 03:32 AM

Fey is NOT a subtype in 3.5 either. You can look up the Subtypes. If it is "Augmented" then it's original Type is noted but that has other consequences.

Ok, we have a disembodied fey spirit fused into a magical plant by powerful magical forces, creating something entirely new that's 1/2 fey and 1/2 plant. 50%-50%.
How would you type it?
(reminder: we're in the homebrew department here)

Normally using a Special Ability is a standard action.

Ok, but for every rule there are exceptions. Plus, I can't see how I'm breaking anything here.

Force is a spell descriptor. . It's not a damage type. I'd have to look at this again to see exactly how it works with psionics. Why doesn't this creature have the psionic subtype?

I'm not sure you're right on this one.
Dragonfire Adept has "Force Breath" breath effect.
From Dragon Magic, Page 26 - the table (3rd line from the bottom): "Line-shaped breath weapon deals force damage"

So why are Outsiders immune to this? Just curious.

I guess because they have no souls (notice that I said Outsiders and not Native Outsiders).
I'm still not fully sure about the damage type of this effect.

If you are actually playing with psionics...

I'm not.

I look forward to seeing the edited version of the mandrake.

It's here - last race in the 3rd spoiler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17531460&postcount=6).
Looking forward to your impression of it.

Debihuman

2014-10-01, 06:56 AM

Ok, we have a disembodied fey spirit fused into a magical plant by powerful magical forces, creating something entirely new that's 1/2 fey and 1/2 plant. 50%-50%. How would you type it?
(reminder: we're in the homebrew department here)

First let me point out the obvious. When you describe something as a spirit, that generally means one of several things. Do you mean the mandrake is made from the disembodied spirit of a slain fey or one that has returned from the from another Plane of Existence (is the base idea Undead or Outsider) or you mean it has the spirit subtype from Oriental Adventures (which really doesn't add much other than describe which spells affect it).

Obviously you need magic to make one of these from what you say, so these are not natural beings.

I would make this a Template that you add to Fey creatures and not a race at all. However, if I had to make these as a race, I would go with Fey and just give them plant-like special abilities.

Earthen rest says nothing about supplying food to ward off starvation for example.

Again, there's no good reason to change standard special ability names.

This is How I would write it up:

Mandrake Racial Traits

Ability Modifiers: Dex -2, Con +2, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha -2. A Mandrake is tough and bears the wisdom of the earth; however, it is stolid and inflexible (both physically and mentally), and finds it hard to relate to other, quick-blooded races.
Fey: Mandrakes are of the fey type although they have many plant-like qualities and are therefore not affected by spells such as charm person and hold person. Spells which affect plant creatures but not just normal plants also affect them. Unlike other fey, mandrakes gain Hit Dice only by acquiring levels in a character class.
Small: As a Small creature, a mandrake gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
Base land speed: 20 feet.
Vision: Mandrakes have low-light vision.
Immunities: Mandrakes are immune to paralysis, poison and sleep effects.
Mandrakes have +4 racial bonuses on saves against stunning and mind-affecting effects and polymorph.
Resistance to Precision-Based Damage (Ex): Mandrakes have plant-like bodies that are difficult to wound and resist attacks that target vital areas, such as critical hits and a rogue's sneak attack. Whenever a mandrake is subject to precision damage, there's 25% chance that the precision damage doesn't apply.
Energy Resistance (Ex): Mandrakes have Resistance to Cold 5.
Vulnerability to Fire (Ex): A mandrake takes half again as much damage as normal (+50%) from fire.
Metabolism & Ecology (Ex): Mandrakes don't need to sleep but they breathe and eat. Spellcasting mandrakes still need to rest for 8 hours to renew spells. Mandrakes have a much slower metabolism than than flesh creatures. They can hold their breath for 10 times their Constitution modifier in rounds. Mandrakes can feed off of plant remains, but greatly prefer to gain their sustenance from Earthen Rest, from which they also gain restorative benefits. If a mandrake consumes meat (either by accident or forcibly), it becomes Sickened for 1d4 hours.
Earthen Rest (Ex): Once a day as a standard action, a mandrake can submerge underground in order to absorb nutrients and heal. While submerged, a mandrake heals 1 hit point per minute and heals 1 point of ability damage per 10 minutes. It can absorb enough nutrients in 5 minutes to sustain itself for 24 hours though it still needs to drink to ward off thirst. When a mandrake is submerged for rest, it leaves a ventilation crack for breathing. It takes a DC 20 Spot check to notice a mandrake's ventilation crack. In areas of tall grass, the DC is 25. Emerging from underground is a move action.
Poison (Ex): A mandrake itself is quite toxic. Mandrake blood is an ingested poison. Any creature that scores a bite attack on the mandrake is treated as ingesting the poison, taking an initial 1d2 points of Constitution damage and Paralysis a minute later as secondary damage lasting 1d6+1 rounds. A successful Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ the mandrake's HD + its Constitution modifier) halves the damage and negates the paralysis. Ingesting a mandrake whole (with the Swallow Whole ability) is treated as a successful bite attack every time the mandrake takes damage within the creature's stomach. Its poisonous blood loses its poisonous qualities 15 seconds after leaving the mandrake's body.
Death Throes (Ex): When slain, a mandrake ends its life in a terrible cry, as it shrivels up. Everyone within 20 feet of the mandrake takes 1d6 points of sonic damage per HD of the mandrake. Any creature whose HD total 10 less than that of the mandrake must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ the mandrake's HD + its Constitution modifier) or die. Mandrakes are naturally immune to this effect.
Automatic Languages: Sylvan, Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic)
Level Adjustment: +2

Debby

nonsi

2014-10-01, 10:27 AM

.
Ok, Ill ask again........

since:
1. "Death Throes" is a 2-edged sword that can easily backfire against the party (and a dead mandrake doesn't benefit from the effect), so it's not really an obvious tactical advantage.
2. "Poison" is strictly vs. creatures that successfully hit a mandrake with bite attack - and the effect is minor and non-abuseable.
3. On everything else it either loses the competition (on many aspects) to the Volodni or ties.

then how exactly do you count it as LA +2, when the Volodni is LA +2 ?

Another thing.
If "Death Throes" is a sonic effect, then Mandragora roots are not really dangerous to harvest at all. All you need is a Silence spell.
I'm seeking something that's a bit harder to circumvent.

Debihuman

2014-10-02, 06:30 PM

nonsi

2014-10-03, 12:32 AM

it is +2 because it doesn't really need to eat, it has poisonous blood, can kill others when it dies and isn't likely to suffocate. Not every ability is has will benefit it directly but they all add to higher CR. Mandrakes make better NPC races than PC races for sure. I'm not even sure why you wanted to make them a playable race in the first place. Their most interesting feature is that their dying shriek has the potential to kill anyone who hears it.

I would also scrap the -2 to Charisma. There's no reason these need it.

Debby

To answer why not NPC-only........ for the same reason why the Volodni is a PC race. For those that wish to role a plant-based PC.

Now for the details:
- "doesn't really need to eat" is mostly inapplicable in a dungeon, or anywhere where there's no natural soil available to dig into.
- "poisonous blood" is not something you can elect to use, and it's more potent effect usually doesn't come to play until the end of the encounter anyway.
- "can kill others when it dies" is a side effect that affects allies equally as it affects foes - and a mandrake is not supposed to even know about it (it's not like Mandragora roots trade this knowledge to one another). Even after it is killed, it's not unreasonable that allies don't figure out that the mandrake was the source of damage.

If I were to make it LA +2, then this would require making the Mandrake 50% resistant to Precision Damage and removing the need to breath altogether (on top of removing Cha penalty).
Without these changes, I'm not sure it couldn't count as a high LA +1 (meaning +1 vs. the Dwarf, which is a high LA +0).
And just think how tough it would be to enter populated places with a walking talking root.

infinitetech

2014-10-03, 04:57 PM

i rather enjoy this racial idea, but i have a few comments:
1. force is in fact a damage type, you resist it with any resist mental effect type of thing
2. the creature should be diminutive sized not small due to what it comes from which would be nice since there are few pc races that size
3. i would split the death abilities damage to 1d4 force 1d4 sonic instead of 1d8 force
4. drop fey from the combo, make it an elemental plant construct, i know its only supposed to have 2 types but this is homebrew after all, it makes sense that in areas where strong natural magic/elemental presence exists the plants could come alive, they are effectively created by gaia herself so to speak, this also lets their bark be infused with magic like resistance
5. up their LA, i know high LA isn't great but it would make sense that a race like this has trouble learning new things, maybe even give them an exp penalty
6. plants can grow through rock easily, id say give them a burrow speed of 40 in sand, 30 in dirt, 20 in gravel and 10 in stone, however they wouldn't move well on land so 10 or 15 land speed and probably 2x land speed in water due to flagella like swimming
7. plants breath CO2 and can get air and nutrients from the ground and water around them, thus no suffocation in dirt/water/gravel/sand or if even one root can reach one of these, 1 animal of dim size allows them both to balance breathing due to co2/o2 exchange
8. they should be able to spring from the ground, they would coil their roots and thus be ready to run
9. they should be able to feed on any rotting material and get bonuses aka fertilizer, also can eat raw minerals to heal, feed, temp boost stats
10. poison should be usable, they would probably have it in their saliva and would maybe use small sharp sticks/blow darts to paralyse foes/slow them while they run away
11. sunlight should heal them/give some bonus same with being in areas of concentrated/wild magic and with magic and sun/full moon they may bloom, but magic voids and long exposure to dark should make them wilt and get negs,
12. their bark should lightly glow in a magic spectrum, and they should have dark vision, lowlight vision, and magic sight, also tremor sense, magic sight, and blind sight when in ground
13. they should have hardened leaf blades for nails both for defense and for digging/climbing
14. they shouldn't be quite so rare, more in small communities in the wilds
15. they should know sylvan, the underground creature language, and the old plant talk language, not common
16. when in bloom they should be able to make a mandragora become a mandrake by singing to it and crossing pollen
17. they should get the good berry spell native at their cl no cap on it
18. they should be able to use a sonic/force cone attack once per lvl per day at a range of 1meter/lvl
20. they should get hide bonuses in natural surroundings
21. they should get climb bonuses due to using roots, nail blades and sap
22. they should be weak to fire and when on fire they should emit toxic smoke, aka toxic gas spell
23. they should be strong against bludgeoning but weak against slashing and piercing
24. immune to rough/spiky hazard/pit trap type terrain due to how it moves
25. distinct odor can be tracked easily and stays awhile behind them, smells like sickness and bitter things, aka natural deterrent from predators
26. bonuses when dealing with plants, elementals, or constructs (they understand their point of view), but clueless aka negs as far as meat bags go
27. can lay a sap trap for... fertilizer...:fort save, fail = par and 1 str dam per cl, succeed = no effect, str check = (cl +20)/(size bigger than dim+1) or (cl+20)*(size smaller than dim+1) mainly used to catch bugs or birds or snakes and stuff for fertilizer
28. can make markings on walls with sap that glow in the magic spectrum to mark paths
29. stats: +2 dex +2 con -2 str +2 wis -2 int -2 cha (they are springy and tough, but not very strong, they see the world around them but neither understand it nor interact with those who do)
30. either high LA 2 or low LA 3, works better this way, still suggest an exp penalty due to their nature, maybe even like 20-25%
31. bonuses to crafting detailed items due to size and useablity of roots/leaf blades(if size already bonuses then just for the natural items)

i may think of more but this is it for now, please give feedback

nonsi

2014-10-04, 03:52 AM

2. the creature should be diminutive sized not small due to what it comes from which would be nice since there are few pc races that size

I want to clarify one thing regarding this and what's to come below:
"Should" has nothing to do with anything here.
I have my vision of things and you have yours – they're both equally legitimate.
If you feel like it, you're more than welcome to make your own homebrew race and it's ok if you also use the name "Mandrake".

Now for the size issue.
1. What it comes from doesn't necessarily mandates the result.
2. Creatures of diminutive size have inherent modifiers that dictate higher LA adjustment before taking anything else into account.
3. Diminutive size would rule out the race for combat oriented classes. It's not that you couldn't take one – it's that you'd be virtually useless as one.

All the above make me reject this option.

3. i would split the death abilities damage to 1d4 force 1d4 sonic instead of 1d8 force

That's a good idea. I believe I'm gonna adopt it.

4. drop fey from the combo, make it an elemental plant construct, i know its only supposed to have 2 types but this is homebrew after all, it makes sense that in areas where strong natural magic/elemental presence exists the plants could come alive, they are effectively created by gaia herself so to speak, this also lets their bark be infused with magic like resistance

Gaia + Construct = Water + Oil. They don't mix any way you slice it.
Also, Elemental doesn’t' spell out "Magical" as well as Fey, and I don't know of something that combines elemental traits from all 4 elements.
Finally, constructs are not resurrection-able (and don't get me started on Warforged – a dumb idea, even if it works mechanically – just like undead heritage).

5. up their LA, i know high LA isn't great but it would make sense that a race like this has trouble learning new things, maybe even give them an exp penalty

LA +2 definitely spells out "has trouble learning new things" to me. (yup, seems like Debihuman has finally pierced my armor).

6. plants can grow through rock easily, id say give them a burrow speed of 40 in sand, 30 in dirt, 20 in gravel and 10 in stone, however they wouldn't move well on land so 10 or 15 land speed and probably 2x land speed in water due to flagella like swimming

Plants can grow through rock given months and years, not seconds (and a diminutive creature burrowing through stone at speed 10 just shatters my suspension of disbelief).
Also, each new power pushes a race's LA further up.
Plus, I don't want a race that will have an answer to almost every scenario and shining above everyone else.

7. plants breath CO2 and can get air and nutrients from the ground and water around them, thus no suffocation in dirt/water/gravel/sand or if even one root can reach one of these, 1 animal of dim size allows them both to balance breathing due to co2/o2 exchange

Yeah, yeah. I got that one.
I've decided to remove the need to breath along with setting it to LA +2.

8. they should be able to spring from the ground, they would coil their roots and thus be ready to run

In my vision, mendrakes are not vine-like roots, but a lot more roots sculptured into a very much human-like form.

9. they should be able to feed on any rotting material and get bonuses aka fertilizer, also can eat raw minerals to heal, feed, temp boost stats

Ok, this definitely makes more sense than having a mouth functional for eating.

10. poison should be usable, they would probably have it in their saliva and would maybe use small sharp sticks/blow darts to paralyse foes/slow them while they run away

Thematically speaking, I don't want this race to have a readily available supply of poison.
1. It's not the theme I'm after.
2. That's just another thing that on its own would push it +1 up the LA ladder.

11. sunlight should heal them/give some bonus same with being in areas of concentrated/wild magic and with magic and sun/full moon they may bloom, but magic voids and long exposure to dark should make them wilt and get negs,

1. This just makes too much that revolves around nutrition and recovery.
2. More power sources mean higher LA.
3. This will just put more stuff to remember about your character. Too cumbersome.

12. their bark should lightly glow in a magic spectrum, and they should have dark vision, lowlight vision, and magic sight, also tremor sense, magic sight, and blind sight when in ground

1. "lightly glow in a magic spectrum" would probably mean that A-M should be harmful if not destructive to them. I really don't want to walk that path.
2. Giving it darkvision would make me feel like that racial trait is being spammed all over the place.
3. All those powers are bound to push LA up.

13. they should have hardened leaf blades for nails both for defense and for digging/climbing

Too monstrously themed for my taste.

14. they shouldn't be quite so rare, more in small communities in the wilds

Elemental-plant-construct.......... communities.
To me, this is as oxymoron as oxymoron can get in RPG (but maybe that's just me)

15. they should know sylvan, the underground creature language, and the old plant talk language, not common

Dryads speak common, so I see no problem there.

16. when in bloom they should be able to make a mandragora become a mandrake by singing to it and crossing pollen

Which would make all Mandragora eventually become Mandrake, spamming mandrakes all over the place.
Not where I'm aiming at.

17. they should get the good berry spell native at their cl no cap on it

Mandrakes don't need it for nourishment and there's more daily recovery with my rules, so there's no real added value for this ability.

18. they should be able to use a sonic/force cone attack once per lvl per day at a range of 1meter/lvl

1. In D&D, distances are not measured in meters.
2. I don't tie the death cry of a highly magical creature to its regular attack.

20. they should get hide bonuses in natural surroundings

They would, if they were part of the worldly ecology in some way.
Being a freak of coincidence and having easily noticeable colors, I don't see this as an advantage they're supposed to have.

21. they should get climb bonuses due to using roots, nail blades and sap

Again, I'm envisioning a humanoid-shape carved root, not something that sprouts vine-like sub-roots.

22. they should be weak to fire and when on fire they should emit toxic smoke, aka toxic gas spell

The poison is in their sap, not their bark, and contact with air destroys its poisonous qualities, otherwise it's abuseable and ups the LA.

23. they should be strong against bludgeoning but weak against slashing and piercing

Actually, piercing attacks do very little damage to wood. Try it for yourself.

24. immune to rough/spiky hazard/pit trap type terrain due to how it moves

I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to here.

25. distinct odor can be tracked easily and stays awhile behind them, smells like sickness and bitter things, aka natural deterrent from predators

How many plants do you know to possess this quality? (plants, not flowers)

26. bonuses when dealing with plants, elementals, or constructs (they understand their point of view), but clueless aka negs as far as meat bags go

See my notes above regarding constructs and elementals.

27. can lay a sap trap for... fertilizer...:fort save, fail = par and 1 str dam per cl, succeed = no effect, str check = (cl +20)/(size bigger than dim+1) or (cl+20)*(size smaller than dim+1) mainly used to catch bugs or birds or snakes and stuff for fertilizer

See my notes above regarding poison.

28. can make markings on walls with sap that glow in the magic spectrum to mark paths

I have no problem with their sap leaving noticeable stains, but this would probably damage them the same way as trying to leave markings with blood would damage regular living beings.

29. stats: +2 dex +2 con -2 str +2 wis -2 int -2 cha (they are springy and tough, but not very strong, they see the world around them but neither understand it nor interact with those who do)

Positive Dex modifiers to wood-based creatures seems very odd to me.

30. either high LA 2 or low LA 3, works better this way, still suggest an exp penalty due to their nature, maybe even like 20-25%

All the qualities you're after would probably put it somewhere at LA +4.

31. bonuses to crafting detailed items due to size and useablity of roots/leaf blades(if size already bonuses then just for the natural items)

My Mandrake, having no culture and no special physical advantage, there's nothing that would give it Craft bonuses.

infinitetech

2014-10-04, 02:45 PM

no prob, just trying to help, each was an individual thing for the most part and most were just brainfood, also i was going off of what mythos, d&d lore, history, and experience i have, now in response to things:
2. fighting classes are still viable, just like pixies instead of going with a high damage per swing you go for a AC build with hitting lots of times very accurately(aka called shots) instead
4.even gods create, and when nature wonders what else there could be and starts to play, many toys may become lost in the woods, also elementals: they are powered by wild magic, also you aren't restricted to judio christian elements, Chinese had : wood, stone, metal, fire, lightning, water, wind, thunder, poison, crystal, life, death, light, dark, ice(may have been more but im not sure) and there are also the elementals who represent areas, certain specie, ideals, or raw minerals, also, the fey cant be resed either, fey become a pile of ash and their energy goes away forever, trust me, i play pixies alot(dm discretion at true res/wish/miracle even working)
6.i based these speeds of your original build, not a dim size one, if you think they are too fast go with 1/2 speed, i was mainly outlining rough terrain penalties, and its not a complete get out of jail free card, its just a handy thing to have, and most constructed areas have bricks/tiles/other things that would stop them quickly
side note i hadn't thought of, wouldn't a wooden creature float?
11.it is a little wonky but i will clear it up, and the negs balance the pros so it isn't an adjustment (high magic/high light/full moon = good, low magic/low light/new moon = bad) (maybe eclipse while strong magic or low magic = really good/bad?)
12.they are magic based, fey get hurt in AM too (weakened then killed), but here is adjusted: tremor sense when in ground, magic sight (with low light and dark sight for magic sight only[aka double range and see additional 60 in absence of it]) glow in magic spectrum (at light of lantern, [torch when wilted, sun when in bloom maybe?{candle at super bad moments, 2xsun at super good}])/(torch, lantern =bloom, candle = wilted{1/2 candle at sb, sun at sg}) blind to the normal spectrum aka it can see magic but nothing mundane if it isnt lit by magic, they only usually care about whats right around them
13.basically just think aloe leaves/bamboo leaves instead of finger nails, and why would they cut them?
14. plant creature and elementals commonly do this, and there was the valley of the abandoned scenario where they said that constructs tend to band together when without a master, also said in other places in lore too
15.yes, but dryads are naturally human like, they are meant to be able to protect the trees from the threats around them, the expansions that cover the old dryad races show much more monstrous versions did exist first
16.they can only do this during special events while in an area with very high magic, so it would pretty much be just for the growth of the small cultures
17.it allows for healing if trapped, also meant to say that the berries could be planted and that they would have a 1/100 chance to grow a new mandragora
18. in most mythos these plants can scream whenever they arent in the ground and not die from it, though they do tend to have strong death shrieks, and meter is roughly 3 ft, this makes it so that it is a rather weak attack, more to scare things away early game, and even late game its only a soso attack, pretty much equivalent to other castable cone attacks, so a good compliment to any class really
20.they are still a plant, and even though the plant is oddly spiky its still normal colors and relatively normal shaped
22.when they light up is pretty much a death sentence, and it would make sense that a plant like them would give off a toxic fume when dying from fire
23.actually i have, and dead wood take only small damage, but living wood tends to take a lot due to the sap loss, the infection/bugs, and several other things like peeling bark, smashing it does little, and slicing it is one of the only ways to get in, though its more of a pierce/slash hybrid that works best aka axe/machete style
24.with how they move (even with your more people like versions) they should not be effected by pit taps, thorns, non liquid based hazardous ground like from effects that make the ground become spiked(normally unseeable if you weren't there to see the change)
25.mint, ginger, garlic, onions, eucalyptus, peppers, pepper corn, nightshade family plants, most fruit, durians, skunk cabbage, sulfur weed, tar moss, several mushrooms, should i say more?
27.this is more a sticky trap, it only happens to have a numbing effect like this, its so they can catch small animals more than anything, but since you are going with a small size instead never mind it if you want, unless its the dimu scale power still or maybe scale it idk
28. plants don't use veins, they have sap in every cell, so you don't need to hit one of your poison veins, just rub your finger a little raw to write, have you never used an ivy vine to make an invisible pencil as a kid?
29. saplings and roots and branches, let alone ivy and such can bend far more than any vertebrate, and bend at any point on them, your creatures wouldn't have/need "joints"
30. as i said each is its own idea, but also for each 5% exp penalty you can drop the LA by 1, based on how it worked with the races way back in the day, trust me that Exp loss adds up
31.they would probably weave vines and make simple tools, they would understand plants better than most, other than that yeah, your version would not

once again just trying to help :-)

nonsi

2014-10-05, 02:13 PM

.
2. "lots of times very accurately" usually spells out SA.
4. Fair enough, but to my better recollection and judgement, this never involves constructs.
6. As I said, I'm trying to lower LA, not raise it, and I wouldn't want an ability that would make GMs hesitate on allowing the race in their game.

side note i hadn't thought of, wouldn't a wooden creature float?
Not necessarily. There are certain trees that don't float (and roots in particular.... carrots for instance), so for uniformity and simplicity's sake, that's what I'll go with.

11. I'll pass it up just because I can't see an obvious game benefit for this complication.
12. To my better knowledge, this doesn't apply to Killoren & Elan, and neither does it apply to Dryads.
13. I'm aiming for something less monstrous - something that doesn't spell out "freaky" so glaringly.
14. As I said, it's not gonna have any construct percentages whatsoever.
15. Ok, I'm fine with adding a note that it's quite alright if they didn't automatically know common.
16. Look, in all the years I've been scouring the various RPG boards, I've encountered less than 10 pages that deal with Mandrake and/or Mandragora in any way. Also, 2e and 3e have nothing on it and it's only vaguely mentioned in BECMI. This all translates to extreme rarity at best. I like it to stay that way.
17. Sure, but this kind of mechanic promotes absolutely no strategy of conserving resources. It's just something you'd do every single day of your existence for a minor benefit. Also, with 4 rests per day, this is really negligible (and I never said that a mandrake cannot rest at all without digging into the ground).
18. Again, Death Shriek is emitted from their dying body, not their mouths. Plus, giving it as a weapon is bound to be a factor in LA.
20. I never said they're oddly spiky.
22. No, it's just +50%. But yes, toxic fumes when dying from fire is indeed reasonable.
23. Seems to me like you're talking about long term damage while I talk about immediate damage.
24. Clearly we both have radically different images in our minds.
25. Unless you're standing next to a field of those, you'd need to rub them to get a potent smell. What you're suggesting could be reasonable, but it would also mean having Hide penalties and being particularly easy to track. I don't think it would be fair to impose such penalty on anyone who'd wish to take Mandrake for a PC race.
28. Ok, but rubbing off on hard surfaces like this, I couldn't excuse them being hardy to precision damage. Plus there's that magically-themed part I wanna run from like wildfire.
29. Try to bend a freshly plucked carrot, celery, parsley or beet. Tell my which of them comfortably bends without breaking. Next go to the first oak tree you find and repeat the experiment.

once again just trying to help :-)
And I appreciate it a lot.
Also, I do take some of your ideas into consideration. I just have my own pace of applying ideas.

JBPuffin

2014-10-05, 02:53 PM

infinitetech

2014-10-05, 04:15 PM

kk glad i could help, just know that without counterpoints a creator can forget things, i should know, btw the spiky was from the original plant description, and i could see quite a few of my points being higher LA than wanted, thus why i added the trackable smell and the exp penalty ideas, just as thoughts, i also have a Much different version of mandrake in my rpgs, but i dont think i brought over hardly any ability from those to this discussion, other than perhaps the tremor sense when buried which i find makes sense for all "living plants"

ill post if i can think of other things but for now im about tapped out i think

Debihuman

2014-10-06, 07:58 AM

Um...to be frank, I think you might want to consider NOT listening to people suggesting changes. I'm looking at the statblock, and it seems about right, no need to change it. If you've been persuaded otherwise, your 'brew your call, but I think there's been much ado about nothing here. Fun plant people, interesting special features, all that, no need modify from here. Thank you for working, nonsi.

He specifically ASKED for suggestions as that what PEACHING means. Not every suggestion is gong to be taken. Even suggestions not taken, doesn't mean it wasn't helpful. It can help you decide what you don't want. However, not asking for any feedback means you don't get to hear what is good about your creation either.

I critique to help make a original premise better working as closely with the source material as possible. That's always been my main goal. Doesn't mean I will always agree with how things are done or why. However, it does mean that I will always suggest something that ANY DM can use. This is why I generally want to see standard rules incorporated. It doesn't mean you can't deviate from them, but you should have a compelling reason for it. I've rarely seen a compelling reason to break the rules rather than just stretch them a bit.

I was also asked how I would write it up, which I did. That doesn't mean I expect the OP to use it. I was just pointing out how I would have done it. Could he have used it? Absolutely. Did he have to? Of course not!

That said, I'll always point out that standard abilities shouldn't be renamed. Not all abilities are open content and while we can certainly play in that sandbox, I don't ever want to give the impression to some potential designer that something is open content when in fact it's not. You have to at all times be aware of what is and what is not open content.

nonsi

2014-10-06, 02:54 PM

He specifically ASKED for suggestions as that what PEACHING means. Not every suggestion is gong to be taken. Even suggestions not taken, doesn't mean it wasn't helpful. It can help you decide what you don't want. However, not asking for any feedback means you don't get to hear what is good about your creation either.

I critique to help make a original premise better working as closely with the source material as possible. That's always been my main goal. Doesn't mean I will always agree with how things are done or why. However, it does mean that I will always suggest something that ANY DM can use. This is why I generally want to see standard rules incorporated. It doesn't mean you can't deviate from them, but you should have a compelling reason for it. I've rarely seen a compelling reason to break the rules rather than just stretch them a bit.

I was also asked how I would write it up, which I did. That doesn't mean I expect the OP to use it. I was just pointing out how I would have done it. Could he have used it? Absolutely. Did he have to? Of course not!

This is the true spirit of PEACHing, which I strive to uphold myself.

That said, I'll always point out that standard abilities shouldn't be renamed. Not all abilities are open content and while we can certainly play in that sandbox, I don't ever want to give the impression to some potential designer that something is open content when in fact it's not. You have to at all times be aware of what is and what is not open content.

I'm not sure what you mean by "open content".
Open in relation to what?

Debihuman

2014-10-06, 03:12 PM

Open Content is the only content that we should be posting. "Posting Copyrighted Content
Posting any copyrighted material without permission of the copyright holder is against the rules. Likewise, please do not link to copyrighted material being hosted elsewhere without the rights-holder's permission. Posts containing such content will be edited to remove that content. In particular, posts containing copyrighted material from game books that are not designated Open Gaming Content (OGC) will be edited to remove the copyrighted portions. As an example, mentioning a specific rule item or general mechanic, or explaining in general how it functions, does not violate this rule. However, posting an entire stat block for a monster or an entire character class would. OGC is published under the Open Gaming License. OGC may be reproduced in full, as per the terms of that license. Please keep in mind that material under the d20 License may not be OGC. When in doubt, refer to the primary source to see if there is a copy of the OGL included. Note that any content in the System Reference Document (SRD) can be reproduced as well."

The Volodnis for example are closed content.

Debby

infinitetech

2014-10-07, 01:56 AM

in all honesty there should be a set # of years before things become ogc entirely, but oh well, capitalism keeps going no matter how much id like to derail it

nonsi

2014-10-07, 12:45 PM

nonsi

2014-10-07, 04:36 PM

.
Ok, I've decided to apply the following:

- Mandrakes don't automatically know Common.
- Mandrakes will continue to be breathing creatures.
- Mandrakes will continue to have the -2 Cha-modifier.
- Precision-based damage resistance is upped to 50%, because 25% = mostly failure (meaning it usually doesn't count). 50-50 seems just right to me.
- Death Shriek is 1/2 mental and 1/2 spiritual, dealing only 50% damage to mindless creatures and 50% damage to creatures without a soul (no damage to monsters that possess neither, such as various Golems).
- LA will remain +1 (being small... and slow physically, mentally and socially... having hard times getting by in populated areas – those are enough of an offset).

Thanks Debby, your assistance was really helpful.

nonsi

2014-10-07, 06:16 PM