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RMS Oceanic
2007-03-15, 03:12 PM
I recently rolled up a level four fighter with the following stats:

Str 18 (+4)
Con 14 (+2)
Dex 17 (+3)
Int 13 (+1)
Wis 11 (+0)
Cha 14 (+2)

Current hp: 39

My previous fighters all went either the Greatsword or Longsword + Shield approach, so I decided to do something different, and gave him proficiency and focus in the Bastard Sword (Hey, it's different) and two-weapon fighting, giving him a rapier in his off hand. His feat selection currently stands at:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Power Attack
Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
Cleave
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)

I plan to take him at least as far as a level 12 fighter, maybe farther. One feat I definately want is Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting from Complete Adventurer, which lets me treat one-handed weapons in my off hand as light. This means I could wield two Bastard Swords to benefit from Weapon Focus and Specialization, while keeping the penalty at -2 rather than -4. Other feats I definately want would be Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Focus and Greater Specialization, naturally.

My questions are this:

1. Should I go out of my way to acquire some inherent bonus for dex for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (Dex 19), or will that be too much effort/expensive?
2. Should I select the Two-Weapon Defense feat, along with its Improved and Greater forms from Complete Warrior?
3. What other feats or equipment, if any, would you recommend for this build?

The other members of my party consist of a Human Cleric, an Elven Ranger, a Human Rogue, a Dwarven Barbarian and a Human Warmage, in case it matters.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Zherog
2007-03-15, 03:14 PM
You know the rapier is not a light weapon, right? And therefore your penalties for using TWF with it in your off-hand will be -4 rather than -2?

RMS Oceanic
2007-03-15, 03:18 PM
Oh, forgot to mention that. Because a rapier weighs the same as a short sword (2 lbs), it was house-ruled to be light.

Matthew
2007-03-15, 03:20 PM
I wouldn't bother purchasing any more Feats along the Two Weapon Fighting Chain. Oversized Two Weapon Fighting possibly, but the fact is that you don't want to specialise in one style at this point. Keep your options open. At the moment you can go Two Handed Fighting, Weapon and Shield and Two Weapon without any problems. You can even use the former two styles with Two Weapon Fighting to make Shield Bash or Unarmed Attacks.

As Zherog says, you probably ought to drop the Rapier and pick up a Hand Axe, Short Sword or Spiked Gauntlet for the time being. Oversized Two Weapon Fighting is a good Feat, but you don't really need it.

marjan
2007-03-15, 03:25 PM
Two-weapon Pounce and Two-weapon Rend are nice feats for TWF. And I don't think that extra attack with of-hand weapon is worth 55000gp.

RMS Oceanic
2007-03-15, 03:25 PM
Matthew: You make some good points, and it's true, I do have a lot of options right now. However, could you clarify why I don't want to specialize in one style right now? (Keep in mind it will be level six before I have to make my next feat selections, so I have plenty of time to discuss this.)

marjan: You're right. I won't specifically save up for dex bonus, but If I randomly receive it, I won't complain. Could you describe those feats you mentioned? I don't know about them.

Jasdoif
2007-03-15, 03:26 PM
If you're going to take a proficiency feat for an exotic weapon, why you don't take it with a double weapon (say, orcish double axe or two-bladed sword)? Then you can get your weapon focus and weapon specialization with both ends, as well as use it as a two-handed weapon instead of two-weapon fighting if/when desired.

RMS Oceanic
2007-03-15, 03:33 PM
I thought about that, but it essentially comes down to my personal preference for Bastard Swords. I always thought they were cool, but never got round to using one until now. That's why I wanted to pick OTWF, so I coudl use two Bastard Swords and get the benefits of Focus and Specialization.

Spiryt
2007-03-15, 03:33 PM
Oh, forgot to mention that. Because a rapier weighs the same as a short sword (2 lbs), it was house-ruled to be light.

Ligth rapier is little unbalancing house rule...

Telonius
2007-03-15, 03:39 PM
There are some Weapon Style feats from Complete Warrior that you might want to consider - Anvil of Thunder, Crescent Moon, Hammer's Edge, High Sword Low Axe, and a couple others. They're kind of feat-intensive, but if you're a fighter you have spare feats lying around.

Matthew
2007-03-15, 03:43 PM
Matthew: You make some good points, and it's true, I do have a lot of options right now. However, could you clarify why I don't want to specialize in one style right now? (Keep in mind it will be level six before I have to make my next feat selections, so I have plenty of time to discuss this.)

Basically because you don't know how the campaign is going to pan out at this point or how the other Player Characters will compare. Two Weapon Fighting has a severe limitation, in that it only works as a Full Attack Action and those can be hard to get at higher levels.

Between Level 4 and 12 you are looking at four Fighter Bonus Feats and three Character Feats. Three of them will be tied up in Weapon Specialisation (+2 DB), Greater Weapon Focus (+1 AB) and Greater Weapon Specialisation (+2 DB) and I cannot recommend strongly enough that if you follow this course you take Melee Weapon Mastery (+2 AB, +2 DB).

That leaves you with three Feats and there are much better ones available than the Two Weapon Fighting / Defence tree. If you want defence, get a Shield and Combat Expertise.

Jasdoif
2007-03-15, 04:03 PM
I thought about that, but it essentially comes down to my personal preference for Bastard Swords. I always thought they were cool, but never got round to using one until now. That's why I wanted to pick OTWF, so I coudl use two Bastard Swords and get the benefits of Focus and Specialization.Ahh. Well, if that's the route you're going to go, OTWF would definitely be a good choice. Don't forget that you can wield one of them two-handed (to further benefit from your strength and power attack) for those cases where you can't take a full attack to use two-weapon fighting.

If you really need to fit in an extra bonus feat, see if you're allowed to take a level (or preferably two for the long-term) of Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm). Your BAB will be a point lower though, and with that Wisdom score you'll be very limited in terms of manifesting (invest in a cognizance crystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/cognizanceCrystals.htm) if that bothers you), so it's really a personal decision on if you think the feat is worth it.

marjan
2007-03-16, 12:57 AM
Two-weapon Pounce lets you attack with both weapons on charge attack, while the two-weapon rend deals additional damage if you hit same opponent with both weapons in the same round (1d6+1-1/2 Str bonus damage). Since you have nice strength bonus the bonus damage will be good.

Jannex
2007-03-16, 02:39 AM
As someone else taking the OTWF route with paired bastard swords, I can tell you that I'm certainly having fun with it. Of course, I'm doing it with a Ranger, so the choice of advancing up the TWF tree is kind of a foregone conclusion for me. One thing I'm doing with it is taking Improved Critical; more attacks mean more chances for a crit, after all. Of course, I'm lucky in that my DM rules that Keen and Improved Critical stack, so it's even more fun!

It really depends on what you want to do with the character. Are you looking to optimize, or are you looking to experiment and find fun new combinations?

RMS Oceanic
2007-03-16, 06:27 AM
Two-weapon Pounce lets you attack with both weapons on charge attack, while the two-weapon rend deals additional damage if you hit same opponent with both weapons in the same round (1d6+1-1/2 Str bonus damage). Since you have nice strength bonus the bonus damage will be good.

They look nice. I managed to score a PHBII and look them up. They're in. Also in is Matthew's recommendation of Melee Mastery. Thanks! :)


It really depends on what you want to do with the character. Are you looking to optimize, or are you looking to experiment and find fun new combinations?

I pretty much want to be a blending machine at close quarters. I'm glad the combination sounds like fun. :)

So my feat selection is currently looking like:

6th Level
Improved TWF
Oversized TWF

8th Level
Greater Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)

9th Level
Melee Mastery (Slashing)

10th Level
TW Pounce

12th Level
Greater Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
TW Rend

Thanks for your advice, everyone. A couple more queries:

1. What should I sink my 8th and 12th level ability bonuses into? Strength for damage, constitution for hp (because 14 seems to be slightly low for a fighter, unless that's just me) or dexterity for Greater TWF?
2. While three of our party (rogue, ranger and warmage) use ranged attacks as their primary form of combat, I was thinking of getting a composite bow (not sure about short or long) to hold my own against any flying opponents, which our DM has hinted might come along. Should I go with this route?

Vik
2007-03-16, 08:09 AM
You should have taken OTWF before Cleave, imho.
And don't take TWDefense, an animated shield will be much better, at a reasonnable cost.

Morty
2007-03-16, 08:30 AM
And don't take TWDefense, an animated shield will be much better, at a reasonnable cost.

Depends if his DM will shoot him for even mentioning Animated Shield. Mine would.

Toliudar
2007-03-16, 10:07 AM
If the other members of your group are optimized for ranged combat, then by all mean have a bow handy, but don't expect to have all that much impact. Certainly don't invest money in a good one. Instead, start saving up for boots of flying/celestial armour/insert item of flying here, to make yourself the flying blender.

marjan
2007-03-16, 02:10 PM
Put those ability increases in the strength. You need damage and to hit more than HP. CON 16 is better then CON 14 but it is only 1HP/level(20HP at lvl 20 when you already have about 200hp is not much), and if you realy need HP you can always take Improved Toughness (from Complete warior I think) which will give you +1HP/level but you don't have any feat that will give you +1 to hit and damage.
Also consider taking two levels of Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warior) for the Triping (since you have INT13 you can take Combat Expertise and Improved Trip) and the one for better power attack with exotic one-handed weapons (if you plan using power attack). I think that it fits your character concept quite good.
And as far as ranged combat goes I agree with Toliudar. Boots of flying will be better investment than longbow(though you should have one just in case). Since your group will lack utility spells they will have use outside of combat too.

ravenkith
2007-03-16, 02:34 PM
It is EASY to get an item of whatever +2.

So a 19 isn't that hard to get when you've already got a 17.

I don't like improved critical. Too many things just make that feat totally irrelevant just by existing.

OTWF sounds good, and anything that gives you an extra attack is cherry, so GTWF is a no-brainer.

But personally the whole "i get as many feats as I want" thing is definitely a case of diminishing returns.

Consider the following:

Fighter 4/Wizard (Martial Variant) 2/Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) 5 vs. Fighter 11

The former will usually thrash the later, hands down.

With that high dex you've got, heavy armor is definitely out the window. The heavier armor you take, the less you benefit from your dex, and the moment you get into medium armors, you lose some of your movement.

Truthfully, the best armor you can get for this character is a chain shirt.

But the best choice for him by far would be the wonderful Mage Armor and it's cousin, Greater Mage Armor (Spell compendium), especially in combination with an auto swift and auto-endured shield (PHB) spell in the first round of a fight (for a total benefit + up to +15 AC, as opposed to the +13 of a +5 full plate).

Or, the animate shield spell (SC), which can cause a physical shield you have purchased to protect you automatically, IIRC.

Take a look at Abjurant Champion. it gets full bab, and a d10 HD, but progresses casting as if it were a wizard.

So at 11th level, you fight like a 9th or 10th level fighter, and cast as a 7th level mage.

So sink your two bonus points into int to get access to those grinchy 4th level spells (polymorph, anyone?).

After 11th level, things get a little complicated, but there are a number of options you can aim for, as with any gish.

But the "I win button" as far as a TWFing Abjurant champion is concerned is the Arcane Strike feat (complete warrior), as it affects all the attacks you make until your next turn.

Combine your TWFing on your turn with Karmic Strike, and it all adds up into a nice little package of pain and fury for the bad guys.

marjan
2007-03-16, 02:50 PM
But the "I win button" as far as a TWFing Abjurant champion is concerned is the Arcane Strike feat (complete warrior), as it affects all the attacks you make until your next turn
No, the "I win button" is wraithstrike.

Jannex
2007-03-16, 03:30 PM
2. While three of our party (rogue, ranger and warmage) use ranged attacks as their primary form of combat, I was thinking of getting a composite bow (not sure about short or long) to hold my own against any flying opponents, which our DM has hinted might come along. Should I go with this route?

Always have a backup weapon. Several, if possible.

Krellen
2007-03-16, 03:32 PM
Truthfully, the best armor you can get for this character is a chain shirt.
No, he should be wearing mithral full plate. Mithral is the best thing ever.

ravenkith
2007-03-16, 03:45 PM
Uh no. Wraithstrike is not an "I win" button. It's nice, but it doesn't counteract the biggest problem of the twfer: low damage per hit.

Lots of things just don't even care if you're making a touch attack.

Everything cares if you're bouncing (assuming a pair of regular bastard swords, haste, and OTWF, and a +5 dex mod);

+15/+15/+15/+10/+10 to hit 1d10 + 4 + 3d4 damage every time you attack, not to mention up to five attacks of opportunity at a +15 each for the same 1d10+ 4 + 3d4 damage...

That's a possible damage output per round of:

10d10 + 40 + 30d4...

Not to mention any enchantments you may have on the weapons themselves (Sonic, Acid and Force Damage should see you right throw in cold and fire later, for S&Gs.... for up to 4d6+1d4 extra damge per attack), or the possibility of picking up Girallon's blessing (spell compendium) for an additional 2 attacks in your normal attack routine.

Or the possibility of 'morphing into even more abusive base forms, or picking up shock trooper (complete warrior) later on so as to sack your ac to let them hit you in return for dishing out even more damage...

Pick up goad and spec out right, and you can MAKE them close to melee and swing on you.

See the possibilities?

Zincorium
2007-03-16, 04:37 PM
Wow. Assume much?

The thing is mage armor and it's improvement don't improve with the abjurant champion's abilities without a house rule, as mage armor is conjuration. Shield is the cool bit, as after taking all levels of the prc you can get a +9 shield effect (practically a +7 large shield) that appears as a free action, has no penalties, and generally won't tick the DM off as much as an animated shield. Although many GMs won't let you take abjurant champion because it is indeed a very, very overpowered class.

As far as the hits go, since you're blowing a 3rd level spell each and every turn, and have to make a full attack, this is not the sole basis for a combat character, any more than charging is, and you cannot and should not assume five separate attacks of opportunity. It's just not going to happen except in unusual circumstances. Even one is assuming careless opponents. And while you can haste yourself almost every battle, it's a poor basis for claiming superiority, since in a group situation haste should be one of the first things the party wizard casts.

As for damage, since OTWF does not change the fact that you only get half your strength bonus on off hand attacks, that +4 is going to be +2 much of the time if it's your strength bonus we're talking about, and if it's not, it should be in there somewhere as you have to have at least a 13 to wield bastard swords. But for the sake of calculation I'm going to assume you have a strength of 18 and thus a +4 to damage with your primary hand and a +2 with your off hand.

Anyway, with all 5 normal attacks hitting, which is by no means guaranteed, you're going to be doing an average of 81 damage per round, maybe more, maybe less. Not too bad. But with all the conditions imposed on it, and the fact that you're blowing the equivalent of a fireball at the least to do it, it's not going to blow my socks off, especially since you're trying to compare a fighter/wizard/very very powerful prc with a straight fighter, at an odd level no less. It's like kicking a toad for being ugly.

ravenkith
2007-03-16, 04:54 PM
Read much?

My post posits that the build I suggested is superior to that of a straight fighter TWFer. This is indisputable.

1. My post already posits that greater mage armor does not, in fact get the benefit for abjurant champion. 6+9 = 15, last time I checked, versus the 13 from +5 full plate. Add in the +5 dex mod we were discussing, and the difference is clear: 30 ac versus a mere 24, and for a helluva lot less money. Plus, touch ac is a 21, whereas the 24 drops to a measley 16.

2. Most combats are over in three rounds. With even two rounds of the kind of damage output this build is capable of, most opponents look ridiculous. At 11th level 160 damage from you alone should be more than enough to let your party waltz through combats.

3. With Goad & Karmic Strike in play (as suggested in my post) You can count on at least one (if not more) aoos a round. Because the bad guy will close to melee and will swing on only you if you do things right. Every time he hits you, you get to hit him back. With shock trooper in play at later levels, you can almost guarantee the enemy will hit while upping all your damage significantly.

Please note in the original text I said UP TO ten attacks... and UP TO the ridiculous amount of damage.

Now take into account that while arcane strike isn't 'always on' extra damage enchantments on your weapons are. and this tactic can take advantage of them just as well as arcane strike.

4. The biggest problem TWFers has is damage output.

Sure, you can make up to 5 attacks a round at level 11...but if you can't deal any decent damage, you might as well forget it.

4. Finally, you wouldn't blow the spell until you were in a melee situation where you were engaged.

Zincorium
2007-03-16, 05:27 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa. No need to go on the offensive. You said yourself that you're assuming a full attack with haste, multiple ability scores over 18, all hits, and an additional five attacks of opportunity. That's a lot, in my mind, and it wasn't meant as an attack or a jab at you. Also, karmic strike seemed like an afterthought rather than a part of the build.

1. All I'm saying is that instead of using a round to cast mage armor, you would probably be better off with other options like a mithril shirt or bracers, whereas the animated shield isn't as good as the shield spell. If mage armor did work with Abj champion, there'd be no contest.

2. In general, yes. Unless they have damage reduction that you don't get through, or regeneration, or any of the umpteen billion other things that generally extend combat well beyond those three rounds.

3. As you suggested, not stated. The only part of shock trooper which helps damage is on a charge, and I see no pouncing. Even then, using a greatsword and unarmed strike is better for PA damage than two bastard swords. Shock trooper is way too many feats for getting PA damage on a single bastard sword attack (or maybe two if you have two weapon pounce).

And while I can posit a shock trooper frenzied berserker charging and getting UP TO 7 great cleaves in a round, I don't, because it's not a common situation. Yours is a somewhat more common, but it's still not a true test of what the build will do most of the time in battle, so I don't think it's all that relevant.

4. Yes. Unless you're a revenant blade, but we won't get into that. Swashbuckler levels, the Shadow Hand feat, there are lots of good ways to add damage, arcane strike being one of them. But considering the rogue is adding 6d6 instead of 3d4 to each attack while flanking a crit vulnerable opponent, but without blowing a 3rd level spell, it's more versatile but less damaging than the core only baseline that we generally compare it to.

5. You're still blowing one every time you use the strategy, and you only get a certain amount per day. What other point would I be trying to make?


Edit: And lastly, ANYTHING is going to be better than a straight, TWF centric fighter. Fighters aren't that good, TWF is a bad fit for them making it even worse.

Rigeld2
2007-03-16, 05:48 PM
3. With Goad & Karmic Strike in play (as suggested in my post) You can count on at least one (if not more) aoos a round. Because the bad guy will close to melee and will swing on only you if you do things right. Every time he hits you, you get to hit him back. With shock trooper in play at later levels, you can almost guarantee the enemy will hit while upping all your damage significantly.

Except... Goad doesnt work outside of melee range. So unless you wlak up to someone and Goad, you failed. Theres nothing requireing him to close with you, it just restricts him from making melee attacks on anyone else. He can still ranged attack, cast spells, etc on other people and ignore you. Or really, do anything he wants, as long as there are no melee attacks performed on other targets... and thats if he fails his Will save, is threatening you, has an Int of higher than 3, and is affected by Mind affecting abilities.

Goad is a worthless feat.

marjan
2007-03-16, 05:50 PM
Yes, but with wraithstrike you can convert your base attack to damage with power attack. Since many high CR monsters have Natural armor more than 10 that means you indirectly get +10 or more to hit. If you take a level of Exotic Weapon Master and take Uncanny Blow for each -1 to hit you get +2 dmg with both hands. Lets say that monster has +10 natural armor(at higher levels they usualy have more):
1.If you use wraith strike you lose 2nd level spell slot to get +10 to hit. Convert 5 of your attack to damage and you get +5 to hit and +10 damage with each attack.
2.If you use Arcane Strike to convert 4th level slot (which is the highest level spell slot you have with this build) you get +4 to hit and + 4d4 damage with each strike(average 10 damage). With 2nd level spell slot it is +2 to hit and +2d4 damage(average 5).
If you use wraithstrike you will lose 2nd level slot and get +1 more to hit.
If you use arcane strike (with 4th lvl spell slot) you get lower chance to hit, same damage and you wasted higher level spell slot and feat.

I must say that wraith strike is much better. And you will be better of with sorceror with build like this.
Something like Fighter4/Sorceror2/Abjurant Champion5/Exotic Weapon Maste1/Eldritch Knight8 would be better with his stats I think.

RMS Oceanic
2007-03-16, 06:06 PM
Put those ability increases in the strength. You need damage and to hit more than HP.

Sure thing.


It is EASY to get an item of whatever +2.

So a 19 isn't that hard to get when you've already got a 17.

True, but it remains to be a secondary objective.


Always have a backup weapon. Several, if possible.

Will do!


No, he should be wearing mithral full plate. Mithral is the best thing ever.

Quite agree. I'm currently saving up for it.

I lack Complete Mage, and it's not part of the SRD, so I can't research those magic classes you mentioned. The books I currently have are PHB/II, DMG/II, MM/II/III/IV, and Complete Adventurer/Divine/Arcane/Warrior. Besides, I'm not really interested in wielding magic. It may be the best thing to do, but it's not what my character would do.

Character-wise, he's a lawful good orphan raised in a temple of Heironius after a Blackguard of Hextor killed his father and stole the family ancestral sword (also bastard). He believes profoundly in his own physical skill, and wants to wield the swords to honor his ancestors. (Yeah, Roy-esque, I know) I think even if he was able to learn magic, he wouldn't want to. He believes in practical front-line work to oppose Hextor.

TWF Fighter may not be optimal. It may be terrible, but it's something I've never done, and I'm gonna try it! Thanks for all your advice and recommendations, everyone. You've helped me work out what I'm gonna do.

marjan
2007-03-16, 06:19 PM
I must disagree with mithral fullplate. Better option IMO would be mithral breastplate since you already have high dexterity. Mithral fullplate costs 10500 gp while mithral breastplate costs 4200 gp so you'll save 6300 gp on that. By the time you get enough money to buy mithral fullplate you will be able to boost your dex enough so you don't have less AC in breastplate then in fullplate and your speed will be +10' and you'll have higher touch AC.

Krellen
2007-03-16, 06:29 PM
I must disagree with mithral fullplate. Better option IMO would be mithral breastplate since you already have high dexterity.
Mithral Breastplate will never be better than Mithral Full Plate. Mithral Full Plate offers a combined bonus of +11 - +8 armour, +3 dex. Mithral Breastplate offers +10 - +5 armour, +5 dex - and is reliant on him getting +4 to Dexterity - something he's unlikely to do if not trying for Greater Two Weapon Fighting or boosting his ranged to-hit bonus. The 6300 gp saving doesn't even cover half of the +4 gloves of dexterity Mithral Breastplate requires to even compete.

marjan
2007-03-16, 06:42 PM
Higher touch AC and improved mobility compensate that. And that +4 Gloves of Dexterity offer more than bonus to AC. If you are wearing fullplate, by the time you get to your enemies battle will usualy be long over especially because the rest of the group is focused on ranged combat.

marjan
2007-03-16, 06:47 PM
As for AC boosting feats you can invest in Improved Buckler Defense (Complete Warrior). It is much better than Two-weapon Defense.

Zherog
2007-03-16, 07:00 PM
I prefer the mithral breastplate over the mithral full plate. Losing 10' of my speed is a "price" I'm not willing to pay for one point of AC bonus.

Zincorium
2007-03-16, 07:16 PM
Champion of corellion larethian FTW with either, adding a total of three to the max dex bonus of any medium or heavy armor, specifically including mithral versions of either.

marjan
2007-03-16, 07:53 PM
Champion of corellion larethian FTW with either, adding a total of three to the max dex bonus of any medium or heavy armor, specifically including mithral versions of either.

Yes, but requires for you to be Elf or Half-elf. Otherwise nice PrC IMO.

ravenkith
2007-03-16, 10:24 PM
Completely right about goad.

Missed the part where he has to threaten you before you can use it.

That feat officially sucks ass now.

Still, the rest of the build is good.

And nothing stops you from using the wraithstrike and power attack combo with this build.

Wraithstrike in and of itself is not the I win button.

Krellen
2007-03-17, 12:12 PM
I prefer the mithral breastplate over the mithral full plate. Losing 10' of my speed is a "price" I'm not willing to pay for one point of AC bonus.
It's 3 points, since he doesn't have the 20 dexterity to fully utilise the mithral breastplate.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-03-17, 01:18 PM
Take Combat Expertise and Two Weapon Defense/Improved Two Weapon Defense/Greater Two Weapon Defense.

By taking a -1 to hit you can gain a +7 to AC.

Then, if you have more feats, try Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack and then Dual Strike. Then just dart around combat and double hit things.

Also, if you'd like to be hilarious and stupid, take Monkey grip and dual-wield large bastard swords.

Suvarov454
2007-03-17, 08:12 PM
If the other members of your group are optimized for ranged combat, then by all mean have a bow handy, but don't expect to have all that much impact. Certainly don't invest money in a good one. Instead, start saving up for boots of flying/celestial armour/insert item of flying here, to make yourself the flying blender.

Don't you think a Masterwork Composite Longbow of Strength +4 is a reasonble investment for a 5th level character with a 17 Dex? At a mere 800 GP it's less than 10% of his expected wealth. Heck, he should have more than that invested in consumable maic items! By all means, don't spend the money to make it magical, but you'll want to participate when your party gets into an archery dual.

Zincorium
2007-03-17, 08:23 PM
Don't you think a Masterwork Composite Longbow of Strength +4 is a reasonble investment for a 5th level character with a 17 Dex? At a mere 800 GP it's less than 10% of his expected wealth. Heck, he should have more than that invested in consumable maic items! By all means, don't spend the money to make it magical, but you'll want to participate when your party gets into an archery dual.

If the party is getting into archery duels, then they probably have it covered very well according to the description given and the player would have to be equally optimized to make a real difference. But you're right that a composite longbow is a good thing to have along.

Suvarov454
2007-03-17, 08:41 PM
Take Combat Expertise and Two Weapon Defense/Improved Two Weapon Defense/Greater Two Weapon Defense.

By taking a -1 to hit you can gain a +7 to AC.

I don't think that's quite right. I'm sure you can use Combat Expertise as part of Fighting Defensively (because Dodge Bonuses stack), but the Two Weapon Defense feat chain all specifically require the PC to Fight Defensively. Still, the TWD chain gives +3 AC with full to-hit, and +8 AC with -4 to-hit. Not shabby. I'm hoping to one day combine that with the Elaborate Parry class feat (7th level Dervish) for a total +12 AC for the -4 to-hit. Stack Combat Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise on top of that for truely magnificent bonuses to your AC. You won't hit anything, and nothing saves you from a nat 20, but just about everything else will miss.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-03-18, 11:15 AM
I don't think that's quite right. I'm sure you can use Combat Expertise as part of Fighting Defensively (because Dodge Bonuses stack), but the Two Weapon Defense feat chain all specifically require the PC to Fight Defensively. Still, the TWD chain gives +3 AC with full to-hit, and +8 AC with -4 to-hit. Not shabby. I'm hoping to one day combine that with the Elaborate Parry class feat (7th level Dervish) for a total +12 AC for the -4 to-hit. Stack Combat Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise on top of that for truely magnificent bonuses to your AC. You won't hit anything, and nothing saves you from a nat 20, but just about everything else will miss.

Any use of Combat Expertise is considered fighting defensively.

Rigeld2
2007-03-18, 11:20 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fightingDefensivelyasaFullRoun dAction

Is there an FAQ reference that says that?

Matthew
2007-03-18, 10:03 PM
Sounds like a vestige of 3.0, where Combat Expertise replaced Fighting Defensively. I don't think it is the case in 3.5.

Stormcrow
2007-03-18, 11:12 PM
Oh, forgot to mention that. Because a rapier weighs the same as a short sword (2 lbs), it was house-ruled to be light.

For the sake of my sanity and the codes of realism. A rapier isn't a light weapon even though it has a smaller weight than other swords because they average about 125cm long. You can finesse it because its a dextrous weapon but its still too large for a light classification.

Not oooooverly relevant but my brain couldn't take it anymore.

Jamie Fameflame
2007-03-18, 11:30 PM
Do you still plan on using a Bastard Sword with a Rapier?

Please, try to picture it. Don't you think that it looks really, REALLY silly?? Like fighting with an Axe and a Net...

They represent two completely different ways of fighting, and (I know that this isn't RL) would be completely impossible to use together.

Anywho, not much of a help, I know, just my 2 cents on a afiliated matter :smallbiggrin: