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Garonak
2014-10-08, 06:57 AM
I need some feedback, especially on level of these spells - or if there are spells in existence that do more or less the same.


15.10: Various changes to energy version; added physical damage version

Variant 1:
Burst of Fire
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 4 etc.
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 15 ft.
Area: All creatures within a 15-ft.-radius burst centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

Fire burst forth from your body, doing 1d8 per caster level (maximum 10d8) fire damage to all creatures within 15ft of you. In addtion, on a failed reflex save creatures affected are moved to the edge of the AoE and take an additional 1d6 damage per 10ft moved and is knocked prone. If the creatures are knocked into a wall by this movement they take an additional 1d6 damage. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity

I am considering making the same spell with acid, cold, electricity and sonic as well (sonic doing 1d6 instead of 1d8).

Variant 2:
Defensive Burst
Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 2 etc.
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: 20 ft.
Area: All creatures within a 20-ft.-radius burst centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

As a last defense weapons burst from your body hurting all creatures within 20ft. The caster chooses one of three focuses, a dagger, a light hammer or a kukri. The spell does 3d4 magic bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage per two caster levels (maximum 15d4 at level 10) dependent on the focus chosen. If the focus is of a special material that property is also added to the damage.
Focus: a dagger, a light hammer or a kukri

Improved Defensive Burst
Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 4 etc.

As defensive burst except the spell also pushes creatures affected back. All creatures who fail their reflex save are pushed to the edge of the spell and knocked prone, receiving 1d6 damage for every 10ft pushed. If the creatures are knocked into a wall by this movement they take an additional 1d6 damage. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Greater Defensive Burst
Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 6 etc.

As improved defensive burst except the spell does 3d6 per two caster levels (maximum 30d6) and the area affectd is 30ft, not 20ft.

All comments welcome.

Orderic
2014-10-08, 09:39 AM
If we compare it to similar spells, there are Fireburst and Greater Fireburst, both of which have slightly less range, although the greater fireburst can deal far more damage than this spell. So, I would probably make it a level 3 or 4 spell, with a preference for 3. After all, in most cases a fireball would be much useful.

Kamai
2014-10-08, 09:47 AM
Spell Compendium has a second level version of this spell that does 1d8/level (max 5d8) within 10 feet, so as a 3rd level spell, upgraded to d8s, this would be a logical progression. However, as it is (and I think even with the d8s), it's a strictly worse Fireball, which is already a bad 3rd level spell. If I might be so bold, I'd up it to d12s, and allow this spell to be cast without casting defensively, even when threatened. It might bump it up a little too much, but this is already a unsafe spell to use while you are anywhere near your party, to it absolutely must be the best blasting spell for the niche.

Also, when you're done, you should add it to the Warmage (and Magus if you want to extend this to Pathfinder) lists. Both of them would like a spell like this that isn't bad.

Garonak
2014-10-08, 10:25 AM
I was thinking level 3 or 4.

10d12 as a level 3 spells seems... A LOT... especially compared to fireball etc...

Especially since I have now found a level 5 Shugenja spell that has the same effect, except that it does 1d8 + caster level (max +20) damage. Circle of Flame (http://dndtools.eu/spells/oriental-adventures--96/circle-of-flame--2062/)

Edit: After having looked at the fireburst spells I am not sure my spell is needed. Perhaps making an 'improved' version of fireburst. Either upping the range to 15 ft or the damage to 1d10 (max 10d10) or 1d8 (max 10d8)?
Making it level 3 or 4

Kamai
2014-10-08, 11:16 AM
I do admit, 10d12 is a lot compared to fireball. However, keep this in mind. You have to be in single move range, if not charge range of anything you want to hit. Most of the things you want to hit basically have to be outside of the attack range of your allies. Your allies have to be outside of a decent range of you. With no ready way to fix friendly fire at these levels, it needs to be powerful enough where it exists in the niche. When you compare to fireball, you're trading in incredible range and safety for the power.

Edit: Note that I believe that a lot of blasting evocation spells are extremely slot inefficient already, and this colors why I might want to go a bit overboard with such a niche spell.

Extra Anchovies
2014-10-08, 12:53 PM
Make it an immediate action, make it push foes backwards on a failed fortitude save, and make it a level 4 spell. Call it Defensive Fireburst, maybe. It's the last-ditch defensive spell that casters use when they really need some breathing room. Immediate action spells are really powerful, but since it affects all creatures, it's very situational. After all, how often are you not within 20 feet of the other party members?

Garonak
2014-10-13, 01:45 AM
If we combine the suggestions here we get:
A level 3 spell that does 10d12 fire damage in a 20ft radius burst centered on the caster that functions as an explosive spell and only takes an immediate action to cast... rriiiiiight :D

I would think that a spell of that power would be in the area of level 6, if not 7...

As for the situational... when are you more than 20ft away from any ally: Often, especially at intermediate and above levels when you meet more and more mobility enemies (high speed and/or flying), when the melee-PCs are running around like headless chickens and the rest are more or less standing still doing their thing.

New suggestion:
Defensive Fireburst:
Level 4
1d10 fire per two levels (max 5d10)
AoE: 15ft radius centered on caster
Special: On failed reflex save creatures affected are moved to the edge of the AoE and take an additional 1d6 damage per 10ft moved and is knicked prone.
Action: ?

RAW this is more powerful than an explosive fireburst

Alternative
Instead of energy damage it could perhaps be possible to use light weapons instead. For instance the caster chooses a weapon dagger, light hammer or kukri as a spell focus and the spell does 3d4 per two caster levels (max 15d4 at level 10) magic and piercing/bludgeoning/slashing respectively. You could even have special materials on the focus.
Normal (level 2): just damage
Improved (level 4): damage pluss explosive
Greater (level 6): increased damage (3d6 per two levels, max 30d6 at level 20), explosive, AoE 30ft

Thoughts?

Kamai
2014-10-13, 03:50 PM
Assuming defensive Fireburst is a standard action, you're still trading damage (16.5 (20 on a successful pushback) average at CL 7 vs 24.5 average at CL 7 for Fireball), range, area of effect, and 1 spell level, to get a 15ft pushback and knock prone. Would you take this in a spell slot over even say Heightened Fireball or Energy subed Fireball?

Garonak
2014-10-14, 02:09 AM
The problem is the existence of the fireburst-spells, they create precedence while being quite ... underpowered compared to spell level, which in turn makes my energy damage version of the spell underpowered.

This might makes my physical damage version more balanced, because the precedence is weaker.
As it is now:
At CL 7: 9d4 (22,5) magic and slashing, bludgeoning or piercing and potential to knock back might be a better option. A higher spell slot, slightly less damage and the chance to move enemies away. Ways to balance it could be to increase AoE to 20ft and/or perhaps make it a Bull Rush with CL instead of strength. In addition to change action to either immediate or swift.

esbear42
2014-10-14, 11:23 AM
Just for comparison, there is a spell in Sandstorm called flaywind burst. It does 1d6/caster level max 10d6, and the effects of gust of wind, preventing movement of medium creatures and knockback on smaller. it affects a 60ft cone.

edit: it is a 5th level spell for druids clerics and soc/wiz

On another node, the spell seems quite appropiate for casters likely to get hold of light weapons, such as bards or spelltheives.

Garonak
2014-10-15, 12:39 AM
First post updated.






casters likely to get hold of light weapons

Getting hold of light weapons? Do you by this mean that it is not normal for eg. wizards to buy a weapon they're not proficient in?

Kamai
2014-10-15, 11:01 AM
Other than editing issues, I don't know about the second level variant of this spell being an Immediate Action. It does plenty enough damage compared to things like Lesser Orb of X, or Scorching Ray that it's range isn't a significant drawback yet. I would instead offer a +5 to concentration checks to cast this spell as a standard action, then move it up to a swift or immediate action at the 4th and 6th level versions.

Edit: I would also change the focus to 1 melee weapon that they are proficient in, and explain how it pulls one of the damage types from that weapon. A race wielding it's racial weapon shouldn't necessarily have to pull out one of these weapons for the focus.

Garonak
2014-10-20, 04:15 AM
Edit: I would also change the focus to 1 melee weapon that they are proficient in, and explain how it pulls one of the damage types from that weapon. A race wielding it's racial weapon shouldn't necessarily have to pull out one of these weapons for the focus.

Strictly speaking, they are not actually drawing another weapon, they're taking out a spellcomponent, that the component is an actual weapon does not affect this in anyway.