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The Vorpal Tribble
2007-03-16, 10:51 AM
Ok, I have an ooze currently wrapped about a mounted horse while constricting it. A player then casts grease on the area. This brings up many questions I can't seem to finds rules about. Either that or it's allowed by the rules, but in the situation it makesabsolutely no sense.

#1. The ooze is a whole 2 inches tall. How does it trip, and more importantly, how can it possible fall down?

#2. If it does fall, what are the rules for being tripped while grappling/pinning a creature?

#3. Also have to consider its likely the horse will also fail the save and trip. Does a rider get injured by his horse tripping and is he rendered prone along with it?

Fax Celestis
2007-03-16, 10:56 AM
1. It doesn't "trip", per se, it just can't find traction on anything, which is just as bad.

2. There aren't any. I would say that a grapple check must be made to maintain the grapple, though.

3. This one's easy. A soft fall off of a mount is a DC 15 ride check, after which he is subject to both the ooze and the grease spell if he finishes within the radius of either. If he doesn't make the check, he takes 1d6 points of falling. DM fiat if he's prone though.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-16, 10:58 AM
#1 Oozes, being amorphous creatures, typically cannot fall. Being prone does nothing to them.


Being tripped makes you prone. Who can be tripped? Beholders? Gelatinous cubes? What effect does tripping have on these creatures? Can a prone character be tripped again? What about flying and swimming creatures? Many creatures have neither legs nor any relationship to the ground or gravity. How does tripping affect them?

Anything using limbs for locomotion can be tripped. Things that don’t need limbs for locomotion can’t be tripped. You can’t trip a snake, a beholder, or a gelatinous cube. You won’t find this in the rules, but then it really doesn’t need to be in there—the rules can leave some things to the DM’s common sense.

A creature flying with wings can be “tripped,” in which case the creature stalls (see Tactical Aerial Movement on page 20 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide). You can’t make an incorporeal creature fall down. You also can’t trip a prone creature.

Creatures can’t be tripped when they’re swimming (the water holds them up). Likewise, a burrowing creature is driving its body through a fairly solid medium that serves to hold it up.

#2 I do not believe there are any rules for tripping creatures currently in the grapple. Though if both creatures in a grapple manage to fall prone, I do not believe there would be any effect on their ability to grapple each other, though creatures outside the grapple would still take the bonuses or penalties associated with attacking prone creatures.

#3 The rider should definitely be rendered prone. I would assume the rider would take about 1d6 damage from the fall and maybe some additional damage from the horse landing on top of him.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-16, 11:47 AM
I agree with you on 1 and 2.



#3 The rider should definitely be rendered prone. I would assume the rider would take about 1d6 damage from the fall and maybe some additional damage from the horse landing on top of him.

This should follow the standard rules for falling horses with riders. DC 15 to treat it as a soft fall, otherwise 1d6 damage and prone (the prone part is not explicit by RAW, but it was covered in the FAQ).
There is no mentioning of landing under the horse.





...
In general, characters don’t land on their feet after falling; however, the Sage could see some reasonable exceptions:

• A character who jumps down intentionally and takes no damage because of a successful Jump check (see the Jump skill).



• A character who jumps or falls down and takes no damage because of a successful Tumble check (see the Tumble skill).

• A character with the slow fall ability (such as a monk) who takes no damage from a fall because of

this ability.


• A character under the effect of feather fall or similar effect that negates falling damage.

• A character who uses the catfall power. This one is clear, as the power specifically states that the

character lands on his feet no matter how far he falls.


Basically, if the character has an ability that negates the damage from the fall, you could choose to say that she also lands on her feet; assuming the fall was brief enough, she should have the option to keep moving as part of the same action that took her off the edge.

Golthur
2007-03-16, 12:15 PM
I mostly agree with Shhalahr.

An ooze can't be prone. However, traction might be an issue as Fax suggests, although not RAW. I don't think an ooze would need to make Balance checks within the area of grease, but I might slow their movement somewhat. Again, not RAW.

Two grappling creatures could both easily fall to the ground and remain grappled, with no other effect than they get to be grappled and prone at the same time. However, an ooze can't really be prone, so it's moot for the ooze. The horse, on the other hand...

If the horse fell, the rider would definitely need to dismount ASAP. I'd likely make this a Jump or a Tumble check, but you possibly might want to make it a Ride check. If they failed the check, I'd definitely make them suffer damage for the fall, plus possibly for the horse falling on top of them. If they dismount rapidly enough, and are sufficiently skilled, they might be able to land on their feet. Then again, I'd personally rule that jumping and landing in an area of grease would necessitate a Reflex save immediately or be prone, even if they would otherwise land on their feet, and likely one with a penalty.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-16, 12:26 PM
The rules for falling off a mount:



RIDE (DEX)

...

Soft Fall (DC 15): You can react instantly to try to take no damage when you fall off a mount—when it is killed or when it falls, for example. If you fail your Ride check, you take 1d6 points of falling damage. This usage does not take an action.
(Slightly altered to include DC 15)


If Your Mount Falls in Battle: If your mount falls, you have to succeed on a DC 15 Ride check to make a soft fall and take no damage. If the check fails, you take 1d6 points of damage.

Golthur
2007-03-16, 12:33 PM
The rules for falling off a mount:


(Slightly altered to include DC 15)

Well, there you go :smile:

It does, however, say nothing about being on your feet after you do so. I'd likely make you prone if you took this option. Jump or Tumble would be necessary to land standing.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-16, 12:37 PM
See the FAQ quote I posted earlier :)

Even though the question addressed is falling/jumping of a cliff I think it is reasonable to apply the same here.

If you make the check and do not take damage treat it as you have landed on your feet.

If you are in Grease you then need to make a reflex save / balance check, of course.

Golthur
2007-03-16, 12:40 PM
See the FAQ quote I posted earlier :)

It's obvious I didn't sleep much last night, isn't it? :redface:

I'll go hide in the corner now and be quiet. :smile:

Fax Celestis
2007-03-16, 12:42 PM
If you are in Grease you then need to make a reflex save / balance check, of course.

What happens if you land in the ooze?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-16, 12:42 PM
Even if falling damage is negated, I don't believe landing on grease make it all that easy to keep your feet. I'd consider a Balance check to be in order.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-16, 12:47 PM
What happens if you land in the ooze?

You grab a spoon....

Fax Celestis
2007-03-16, 12:57 PM
Mmm....pudding.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-16, 01:17 PM
It's obvious I didn't sleep much last night, isn't it? :redface:

I'll go hide in the corner now and be quiet. :smile:

I was wondering if you had me on ignore :smalltongue:



Mmm....pudding.

Yeah, so I would generally recommend that anyone stepping in the pudding or ooze be shunned away to the nearest available space


Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where itís not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if thereís a legal position thatís closer.

If that is not plausible :smallsigh: I guess you deserve to be prone in the puddings square.... Possibly grappling with your horse.... :smallsigh:

Fax Celestis
2007-03-16, 01:21 PM
If that is not plausible :smallsigh: I guess you deserve to be prone in the puddings square.... Possibly grappling with your horse.... :smallsigh:

PLEASE STOP PAINTING ME MENTAL IMAGES.

srsly. Think of my poor, poor brainmeats.

Golthur
2007-03-16, 02:16 PM
I was wondering if you had me on ignore :smalltongue:

No, chronic insomnia. A problem with having an overactive brain/imagination that just won't shut off at night. There's usually about a three day stretch every month where I get no sleep whatsoever.

Needless to say, I get a bit bleary. :frown:

As an aside, I didn't think the ignore list was enabled. Has it been?


Yeah, so I would generally recommend that anyone stepping in the pudding or ooze be shunned away to the nearest available space

If that is not plausible :smallsigh: I guess you deserve to be prone in the puddings square.... Possibly grappling with your horse.... :smallsigh:

I use homebrew close quarters combat rules instead of the RAW "shunt to the nearest square" method, so by my setup they'd just land right in the middle of the ooze, with all the normal oozy goodness. It just doesn't make my verisimilitude happy to think about no person being able to be within the same 5'x5' square unless they're grappling. But, yeah, RAW, unless they're grappled by the ooze, shunt away.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-16, 02:29 PM
No, chronic insomnia. A problem with having an overactive brain/imagination that just won't shut off at night. There's usually about a three day stretch every month where I get no sleep whatsoever.

Needless to say, I get a bit bleary. :frown:


Sorry to hear that :smallfrown:



As an aside, I didn't think the ignore list was enabled. Has it been?


User CP (top menu bar)

Buddy / Ignore List (at the bottom)


I have not tested it.

Tobrian
2007-03-16, 02:47 PM
I use homebrew close quarters combat rules instead of the RAW "shunt to the nearest square" method, so by my setup they'd just land right in the middle of the ooze, with all the normal oozy goodness. It just doesn't make my verisimilitude happy to think about no person being able to be within the same 5'x5' square unless they're grappling. But, yeah, RAW, unless they're grappled by the ooze, shunt away.

As far as I know the rules mention that two creatures can occupy the same square on a battlemap without grappling, the example given was that if a party of adventurers is walking down a tunnel single-file and the tunnel is only one square wide, that does not mean that PC #3 could not squeeze past PC #2 to get to PC #1 at the front.

Common sense tells me that two creatures can occupy the same square if one is much larger than the other (just like a mice can sit between your legs) or if one is sitting or lying on top of the other. The battlemap is two-dimensional, it doesn't normally mention stacking vertically. But since a rider sitting on his horse occupies the same space as his horse on a battlemap, I don't see a problem with someone falling off his horse and landing smack in the middle of the ooze, if the ooze covers several squares anyway.

I'm assuming the ooze is not just a thing covering on the horse, right? More like a giant amoeba or Shoggoth. (Mud-wrestling is so yesterday... Wrestling In Shoggoths is the next cool thing! Kids, don't try this at home!)

Now, if the Grease spell makes the ooze slither along the ground (well slither even more than it usually does) while wrestling with the grappled horse and the prone rider, the whole thing could slide past the other adventurers like an odd carnival float or a pizza with horse-and-rider toppings in a pan with too much oil... :smalltongue:

Golthur
2007-03-16, 02:53 PM
Common sense tells me that two creatures can occupy the same square if one is much larger than the other (just like a mice can sit between your legs) or if one is sitting or lying on top of the other. The battlemap is two-dimensional, it doesn't normally mention stacking vertically. But since a rider sitting on his horse occupies the same space as his horse on a battlemap, I don't see a problem with someone falling off his horse and landing smack in the middle of the ooze, if the ooze covers several squares anyway.
I believe, RAW, you can occupy the same square as another creature if there is a difference of at least 3 size categories between your sizes. Otherwise, no.




I'm assuming the ooze is not just a thing covering on the horse, right? More like a giant amoeba or Shoggoth. (Mud-wrestling is so yesterday... Wrestling In Shoggoths is the next cool thing! Kids, don't try this at home!)

I love shoggoths, they're so much fun. :amused:

JaronK
2007-03-16, 03:08 PM
I swear, this party is trying to kill me...

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-17, 09:53 AM
Buddy / Ignore List (at the bottom)


I have not tested it.
Neither have I, but last time I saw a discussion of the ignore list, I believe other people had found it to be working despite the mods' claims to the contrary.

Maybe I should test it for a moment...

...Yep, it works.

It even gives you a little message where an ignored post is saying, "This message is not displayed because <name> is on your ignore list." That way, you know if you're missing something.

...

Anyway, yeah, allies can always squeeze past each other. There are also rules for squeezing past an opponent, but you cannot end in their same space.

InaVegt
2007-03-17, 09:59 AM
Neither have I, but last time I saw a discussion of the ignore list, I believe other people had found it to be working despite the mods' claims to the contrary.

Maybe I should test it for a moment...

...Yep, it works.

It even gives you a little message where an ignored post is saying, "This message is not displayed because <name> is on your ignore list." That way, you know if you're missing something.

...

Anyway, yeah, allies can always squeeze past each other. There are also rules for squeezing past an opponent, but you cannot end in their same space.
I have tested it and it worked