Elven Racial Weapon

[Enzario]

I was in a restaurant when the thought hit me that elves, though they are portrayed as lithe, dexteritous fighters in many novels and some D&D source material, there are few feats/items tailored toward this role.
So, I quickly scratched this idea down on a napkin (when I thought of this, I was thinking of the elven swords from The Lord of the Rings that have half the length made up of the handle):

Elven Songblade
2-Handed Melee Weapon (Exotic)
Damage: d10 (19-20/x2)
Price: 60 gp
Weight: 4 lbs

A character with the Weapon Finesse feat can apply her Dex modifier instead of her Str modifier on attack rolls with an elven songblade.
A character using the Combat Expertise feat gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively or using total defenst while wielding an elven songblade.

Any thoughts on this? Opinions are greatly appreciated.

[Dhavaer]

It's a lot like the Courtblade, from Races of the Wild. The Courtblade costs an extra 90gp, has a 18-20 threat range and doesn't have the Combat Expertise ability, though.

That ability seems a little weak, actually. It requires you to use a feat while using a combat option similar but inferior to the feat, and makes that combat option almost as good as the feat, but not quite. It'd be better if it was Combat Expertise or Fighting Defensively/Total Defence.

[Zeta Kai]

I'm sorry to squash a fellow homebrewer's creativity, but Dhavaer's right. The Races of the Wild book (which I can't recommend enough for elven or halfling fans) has a wide variety of racial weapons & armors. 4 new awesome arrows, 5 new swords (includinmg the elven thinblade, the elven courtblade, & the elven lightblade), 2 new bows, 5 new armors, & many new magical weapons as well. The Races series is highly underrated, IMO.

[Kevlimin_Soulaxe]

The thinblade and lightblade are reprints, with what I consider to be incredibly inferior graphic depictions. They were introduced in Complete Warrior, with realistic pictures. RotW? Looks like Samurai Jack to me...

[Haedrian]

I don't like the fact its a 2-handed weapon.

Weaponfinesse is about fighting fast with style isn't it? I doubt you'd do that with a 2-hander.

A one handed weapon would be ok...

[paddyfool]

I don't like the fact its a 2-handed weapon.

Weaponfinesse is about fighting fast with style isn't it? I doubt you'd do that with a 2-hander.

A one handed weapon would be ok...

Using two hands doesn't only give a person more power over a weapon - it can also give them more control. Try playing pool or swinging a baseball (let alone cricket) bat with one hand and you'll see what I mean. Also, see Seven Samurai for an example of two-handed weapons being used dextrously. I reckon the Elven Courtblade would work nicely for a high Dex combatant build, and would fit well with the bonuses to 2-handed weapons that apply to disarm etc.

[Haedrian]

But that's to do with weight distribution

A baseball bat is for blugeoning with, and the tip of it is much heavier (not only due to the distance from the pivot)

[Matthew]

Oh man, this 'Elves use Katanas' thing has been going on for years. Personally, I don't think there is an awful lot of literary source material for seeing Elves as particularly lithe and dextrous Fighters, it's really just a D&D thing that has had a lot of influence.

If you want to represent the idea that Elves are 'Dextrous Fighters', make it so they can use Weapon Finesse with Long Swords. No need to invent ten new Elven Racial Weapons or Pseudo Katanas.

[Edit] Lord Iames has a number of Elven Racial Weapons knocking about that look very similar to this one: ah, here it is: Weapons and Feats for my Home Brew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11043&highlight=Katana). Not as similar as I thought, but the same sort of idea.

[TheThan]

What’s wrong with making the rapier a racial weapona? If you want style and grace its already in the core materials, there’s no real need to go looking to splat books or homebrewing when everything you need is right there already.

oh I agree on the elf/katana thing too, its kinda silly.

[Jewish_Joke]

Oh man, this 'Elves use Katanas' thing has been going on for years. Personally, I don't think there is an awful lot of literary source material for seeing Elves as particularly lithe and dextrous Fighters, it's really just a D&D thing that has had a lot of influence.

If you want to represent the idea that Elves are 'Dextrous Fighters', make it so they can use Weapon Finesse with Long Swords. No need to invent ten new Elven Racial Weapons or Pseudo Katanas.

[Edit] Lord Iames has a number of Elven Racial Weapons knocking about that look very similar to this one: ah, here it is: Weapons and Feats for my Home Brew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11043&highlight=Katana). Not as similar as I thought, but the same sort of idea.

IMHO, you make a one-handed slashing weapon out of mithral, bam! Finesse-able. The extra cost balances it out.

[Matthew]

Sounds reasonable, though to be honest, I don't think it would make a whole lot of difference if the Weapon Finesse Feat just plain worked with pretty much all weapons.
Saying that, I am also a proponent of letting Strength work with Thrown and Drawn weapons by means of a similar mechanism or House Rule.

[ArmorArmadillo]

It's a lot like the Courtblade, from Races of the Wild. The Courtblade costs an extra 90gp, has a 18-20 threat range and doesn't have the Combat Expertise ability, though.

That ability seems a little weak, actually. It requires you to use a feat while using a combat option similar but inferior to the feat, and makes that combat option almost as good as the feat, but not quite. It'd be better if it was Combat Expertise or Fighting Defensively/Total Defence.

Any penalty taken with Combat Expertise counts as fighting defensively.

[Haedrian]

Oh man, this 'Elves use Katanas' thing has been going on for years. Personally, I don't think there is an awful lot of literary source material for seeing Elves as particularly lithe and dextrous Fighters, it's really just a D&D thing that has had a lot of influence.

In the DnD handbook it tells you that elves view fighting as an art.

"Human nobles compete for the service of elf instructors, to teach swordplay to their children"

"Elves esteem the art of sword play..."

So its about dexterity (plus they take a +2 to dex) and fighting in a beautiful manner, not just whacking it in the general direction of the target.

[Matthew]

Er, no. All that indicates is that Elves view swordplay as an art and are skilled at it, later in the same text it also talks of their prowess with Sword and Bow. It doesn't tell us anything about what that art consists of; Martial Arts (by which I mean any form of combat) rely on Strength as well as Dexterity. However, as you will note from the text you are quoting, the problem is not that D&D does not support this view, but that it is the main proponent of this view.

Regardless, Elves can do nothing with Long Swords that any other Race cannot already emulate, except that they are automatically proficient with them. This in no way suggests that Elves rely on their Dexterity when using them or anything other than Strength. Rapiers and Short Swords would be a different story, but require Weapon Finesse.

[EvilElitest]

Don't really care about what weapon the elves use, but if you want to mimic the LOTRs swords, were they are in detail. This is a Lhang, the name for the weapon used by the elves in the second moive. There are two swords in this link the lower one is the Lhang. Here (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://swordforum.com/articles/ent/tonywolf-5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://swordforum.com/articles/ent/tonywolf-2.php&h=145&w=517&sz=9&hl=en&start=149&tbnid=LZ3VmiwfopR1jM:&tbnh=37&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3Delf%2Bsword%26start%3D140%26ndsp%3D20 %26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)

Enjoy
from,
EE

[Matthew]

[Nit Pick]The Lord of the Rings Movie Swords, which shouldn't be confused with the Books[/Nit Pick]

Yeah, they are exactly the sort of thing I had in mind, Pseudo Katanas.

[EvilElitest]

[Nit Pick]The Lord of the Rings Movie Swords, which shouldn't be confused with the Books[/Nit Pick]

Yeah, they are exactly the sort of thing I had in mind, Pseudo Katanas.

I know it was the moive, the books had the elves using normal (well really well made but normal in design) long swords.
from,
EE

[Matthew]

I wasn't meaning to imply that you didn't, but it's important to be clear that the Lhang was invented for the Movies, as not everybody is aware of the distinction.

[EvilElitest]

I wasn't meaning to imply that you didn't, but it's important to be clear that the Lhang was invented for the Movies, as not everybody is aware of the distinction.

Oh ok. It was based after the nagamaki, a japanase sword. Read about it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagamaki). Apperently, though i am no judge it can be used in a realistic manner, unlike many fantasy weapons.
from,
EE

[Triaxx]

not just whacking it in the general direction of the target.

I know it's written wrong, but still...

Anyway on the topic, new weapons are always welcome in my book. This is a nice variant on the idea of dexy elven fighters, but I wonder if Finesse and CE both are really needed. Perhaps give it a bonus when making an AoO? +1 to Bab.