The True Champion(Fix,PEACH)

[Amnoriath]

As many of your know the Champion archetype severely lacks in comparison to its bethren. At best it was a dip to capitalize on critical damage or simple to remember What I want to know is how does this compare to a Battle Master or Barbarian X and if it is about as simple to remember as its former self?


Champion

http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/068/e/6/warrior_by_ameeeeba-d5xc828.jpg(credit goes to ameeeeba)

Time has bred many fighters or warrior, few have ever been called Champions. A fighter who wishes to take this path seeks to bind the various techniques of weapons, armor, and body to become the true exemplar of warriors.

Improved Critical: At level 3 you may treat any physical attack you make as a critical if you roll a 19 or 20.

Malleable Prowess: At level 3 if your Dexterity score is higher than your Strength you may use it for any non-heavy weapon and Athletics checks instead of Strength. If your Strength score is higher than you may use it in making Initiative and Acrobatics checks instead of Dexterity. Additionally if a feat, item, or ability has a prerequisite of a Strength or Dexterity score you may use the other score for the prerequisite if it equals or exceeds the score.

Omnicable Being: At level 7 you may choose either the Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, Search, or Use an Object actions. You can use that action as a bonus action. Additionally you may choose 4 ability checks and/or saves in which you aren't proficient in to add 1+1/2 prof. bonus(round down) to the roll. If you would become proficient later you must choose another save or check that you aren't proficient with. You also may use your Dexterity modifier instead of Strength for Strength saves if it is higher. If your Strength modifier is higher you may use it instead of your Dexterity for Dexterity saves.

Dauntless: At level 10 When you use your Second Wind feature if you would gain more hit points than needed to be healed you gain the rest as temporary hit points for 1 minute as well as maximizing the result. Additionally you may use your Second Wind feature one more time. You also regain one use of Indomitable after a short rest while being able to use it on ability checks.

Action Surge: At level 10 you gain one more use of Action Surge.

Eclectic Form: At level 15 your critical range is 18-20 for any physical attack you make and you may add your to hit attribute again to the critical damage roll. If you possess a weapon that has a higher magical bonus than another you may use the higher one when using the lower one. This may even apply to a non-magical weapon so long as you are wielding it and the other is still on your person. The same is true for a piece of armor or shield you possess. Additionally you can ignore the armament requirements of your Fighting styles and may select another one. As such you can use both the Duelist style and Great Weapon fighting style even if you aren't even using a melee weapon. Finally you may choose one more specified action as per the rules of Omnicable Being

True Survivor: At level 18 add 2 to 2 of your physical scores which may exceed your normal cap of 20 to 22. You gain one more use of Second Wind and have advantage on one save of your choice as well being immune to the Frightened condition for 1 minute. If you would use Second Wind again before the duration is up it resets and you exchange your advantage on another save if you wish. Finally, when you are about to roll for a save or ability check you can use 2 Indomitable uses to treat the roll as a 20.

[AgentPaper]

Well, two major issues:

1) This isn't nearly as simple as the original version. There's a lot of numbers running around doing strange things that don't make much intuitive sense, like adding your to-hit bonus to your damage rolls. Great Weapon Specialization takes something that's already probably a difficult concept to figure out for a new player (when is it worth using?) and makes it an order of magnitude more complex (should I go -4 to hit or -3?).

2) True Champion (GWS) is very OP. Your damage shoots up drastically at level 18 (I assume this is when you get this ability), going from dealing about 10-20% more damage than a normal fighter, to dealing almost twice as much. You do more damage with your normal attacks than a Battle Master does when he uses his Superiority Dice every round.

I haven't run the numbers yet, but I suspect the two-weapon line is equally ridiculous, if not moreso.

Overall I think you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Champion isn't meant to be a top-tier character, they're meant to be an easy to play character that remains relevant so that new players can be introduced to the game and have fun without needing to make tons of decisions every turn. If you make them competitive without impinging on that simplicity, then all you're doing is incentivizing experienced players to play a character they won't enjoy, due to the lack of options it gives.

[Amnoriath]

Well, two major issues:

1) This isn't nearly as simple as the original version. There's a lot of numbers running around doing strange things that don't make much intuitive sense, like adding your to-hit bonus to your damage rolls. Great Weapon Specialization takes something that's already probably a difficult concept to figure out for a new player (when is it worth using?) and makes it an order of magnitude more complex (should I go -4 to hit or -3?).

2) True Champion (GWS) is very OP. Your damage shoots up drastically at level 18 (I assume this is when you get this ability), going from dealing about 10-20% more damage than a normal fighter, to dealing almost twice as much. You do more damage with your normal attacks than a Battle Master does when he uses his Superiority Dice every round.

I haven't run the numbers yet, but I suspect the two-weapon line is equally ridiculous, if not moreso.

Overall I think you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Champion isn't meant to be a top-tier character, they're meant to be an easy to play character that remains relevant so that new players can be introduced to the game and have fun without needing to make tons of decisions every turn. If you make them competitive without impinging on that simplicity, then all you're doing is incentivizing experienced players to play a character they won't enjoy, due to the lack of options it gives.
1. The feats do that already. All I did was give them to choice to go in between, but they don't have to. How is adding a little damage on the critical that hard?
2. It is only maximized when a creature is incapacitated. In other words he either needs to dip or get feats some place else to get an ability. In most cases it will take an action to do so, meaning he probably lost the chance to deal about 90 damage right off the bat. While, it is true someone else could do it, many of your monsters at this point are turning failures into successes. In essence it is just capitalizing on a save or die. The Battle Master on the other hand has extra dice they can just add, this is gold for someone who has GWS. Now, I will probably eliminate the extra GWM damage.
3. It gets more attacks but I will suspect many monsters at that point will have an AC more than 24(22 with the extra attacks) since a Barbarian can get more already as a base.
4. The problem is it really doesn't. While as a Fighter he attacks so does the Battle Master and Eldritch Knight. A Berserker with 5 levels of Fighter can get 4 attacks 10 levels earlier. When it gets Superior Critical the Barbarian already has Brutal Critical with the 19-20 critical.
5. It sounds like you are saying simplicity is exclusive to effectiveness.

[BRKNdevil]

1. The feats do that already. All I did was give them to choice to go in between, but they don't have to. How is adding a little damage on the critical that hard?
2. It is only maximized when a creature is incapacitated. In other words he either needs to dip or get feats some place else to get an ability. In most cases it will take an action to do so, meaning he probably lost the chance to deal about 90 damage right off the bat. While, it is true someone else could do it, many of your monsters at this point are turning failures into successes. In essence it is just capitalizing on a save or die. The Battle Master on the other hand has extra dice they can just add, this is gold for someone who has GWS. Now, I will probably eliminate the extra GWM damage.
3. It gets more attacks but I will suspect many monsters at that point will have an AC more than 24(22 with the extra attacks) since a Barbarian can get more already as a base.
4. The problem is it really doesn't. While as a Fighter he attacks so does the Battle Master and Eldritch Knight. A Berserker with 5 levels of Fighter can get 4 attacks 10 levels earlier. When it gets Superior Critical the Barbarian already has Brutal Critical with the 19-20 critical.
5. It sounds like you are saying simplicity is exclusive to effectiveness.

for 3, no monster will probably get over 22 AC and the ones with that are ancient dragons with a CR of 24 so i don't think that will be a problem
for 4 Extra attacks don't stack unless you are a fighter at 11 or using some ability to gain 1-2 extra attacks through your bonus action. So that is something due to your misinterpretation of the rules which is detailed in the book. Check multiclassing rules.
for 5 In his reference to tiers I think he is talking about the flexibility of the character to deal with a multitude of situations, and the Champion isn't meant to do that. Its meant to be as simple to play as possible, focusing on the rather unique ability to increase his own critical chance rate.

[Amnoriath]

for 3, no monster will probably get over 22 AC and the ones with that are ancient dragons with a CR of 24 so i don't think that will be a problem
for 4 Extra attacks don't stack unless you are a fighter at 11 or using some ability to gain 1-2 extra attacks through your bonus action. So that is something due to your misinterpretation of the rules which is detailed in the book. Check multiclassing rules.
for 5 In his reference to tiers I think he is talking about the flexibility of the character to deal with a multitude of situations, and the Champion isn't meant to do that. Its meant to be as simple to play as possible, focusing on the rather unique ability to increase his own critical chance rate.

1. You forgot spells, items, and even lairs which will give various bonuses at those levels. Though I will consider a take 10 option instead.
2. Okay, I thought the multi-class rules made an exception to the fighter but it refers back to the fighter in its qualification. 6 levels earlier still is a commanding advantage.
3. There is a reason why I said simple to remember and not to play. Such a character isn't simple to play when other classes, even its own sub-classes, gain class abilities in which it has to fish for with items and feats to resemble. It isn't simple to play when you are relying on supports more to keep in line with others.

[BRKNdevil]

1. You forgot spells, items, and even lairs which will give various bonuses at those levels. Though I will consider a take 10 option instead.
Then, at that point the DM is purposefully scaling the difficulty outside the norm of the encounter and even then, at 24 AC with most Hitters going between 11 and 14 bonus on the attack roll, your not missing much.


2. Okay, I thought the multi-class rules made an exception to the fighter but it refers back to the fighter in its qualification. 6 levels earlier still is a commanding advantage.
that would mean you would have to take 11 Levels of Fighter, and if you want four attacks, look at the Monk with 4 attacks at level 5


3. There is a reason why I said simple to remember and not to play. Such a character isn't simple to play when other classes, even its own sub-classes, gain class abilities in which it has to fish for with items and feats to resemble. It isn't simple to play when you are relying on supports more to keep in line with others.
Or it could be you get buffed by your allies and go to town. This isn't 3.5 where it would be more beneficial to self stack buff than to buff an ally because you are naturally limited by the game mechanics. Which i Prefer, because instead of a group of Murder Hobos, you are now a team of Murder Hobos. It seems 5e is based on forcing players to fight and work together to accomplish something.

[DiBastet]

I think proficiency to critical damage is more in line with 5e simplicity feel, then double that at the higher level version. I will probably use this idea. I don't like the other abilities and it takes from the simple fighter thing. I've seen players choose champion just for the sake of simplicity and I would never take that option away so I won't ever use this part of your fix.

[Amnoriath]

Then, at that point the DM is purposefully scaling the difficulty outside the norm of the encounter and even then, at 24 AC with most Hitters going between 11 and 14 bonus on the attack roll, your not missing much.


that would mean you would have to take 11 Levels of Fighter, and if you want four attacks, look at the Monk with 4 attacks at level 5


Or it could be you get buffed by your allies and go to town. This isn't 3.5 where it would be more beneficial to self stack buff than to buff an ally because you are naturally limited by the game mechanics. Which i Prefer, because instead of a group of Murder Hobos, you are now a team of Murder Hobos. It seems 5e is based on forcing players to fight and work together to accomplish something.

1. You mean to tell me if he is uses classes against you and therefore would have comparable items to you he is somehow going out of his way to get you? Besides take a look at legendary creatures and the various lairs described. All of this very reasonable to use especially if he isn't using a regular comparable CR monster. Also, if the Champion is using this he isn't going to be making criticals.
2. Monks typically aren't going to have heavy weapons to add the bonuses to and the point is to say how the Champion ultimately isn't worth it in the mid-high levels but dipping in it almost makes it better than it is in criticals. Besides you just bolstered what I was saying on how it doesn't compare in advancement.
3. The concentration factor makes this ever less likely, incentivising you to find your own, and the spell casters to carefully consider spells to use. Having to rely on your allies means you must spend your actions to be near enough to them to benefit. All actions you could have done dealing damage and/or hindering the enemy. If there are other martial characters who says you are the one that needs it or is most worth it? I know it sounds cruel, but ultimately spell casters will have to decide who is going to cause more trouble and/or who can stand it. If anything you are the last piece to move because all you can do is hit a lot. Though, a lot of characters can hit a lot and have other things to bolster them or alternative things to do. In order for there to be a team you need to be able to deliver something others can't. Since this really doesn't it is the closest thing to a tier 5 character in the game.

[AgentPaper]

Just did the math for TWF as well, it's even more absurd than GWF. Not only are you consistently doing 20-40% more damage than a normal fighter (almost comparable to what a battle master fighter does when using his supremacy dice as much as possible), but at level 18 you just become completely broken. You can hit anything with an AC of 22 or less 100% of the time, and if it has an AC of 20 or less, you can even throw in an extra attack. This shoots your damage through the roof against anything short of a Tarrasque, and with a +3 magic weapon even Big T can be hit guaranteed.

[Amnoriath]

Just did the math for TWF as well, it's even more absurd than GWF. Not only are you consistently doing 20-40% more damage than a normal fighter (almost comparable to what a battle master fighter does when using his supremacy dice as much as possible), but at level 18 you just become completely broken. You can hit anything with an AC of 22 or less 100% of the time, and if it has an AC of 20 or less, you can even throw in an extra attack. This shoots your damage through the roof against anything short of a Tarrasque, and with a +3 magic weapon even Big T can be hit guaranteed.

Have you considered he can't critical if he chooses to use it now?

[AgentPaper]

Have you considered he can't critical if he chooses to use it now?

Yes, but it's still a major increase. For reference, at level 20 a Great Weapon battle fighter deals ~33 DPR with his normal attacks, or ~51 if he uses his superiority dice on every hit. A GW champion using your rules deals ~61 DPR, and a TW champion using your rules deals ~68 DPR.

[Amnoriath]

Yes, but it's still a major increase. For reference, at level 20 a Great Weapon battle fighter deals ~33 DPR with his normal attacks, or ~51 if he uses his superiority dice on every hit. A GW champion using your rules deals ~61 DPR, and a TW champion using your rules deals ~68 DPR.

1. There is something seriously wrong with your math if the former is only dealing 33 damage per round as a base. An attack he should be using at a base should be 15 which means 60 with no dice or GWM. Now, a few won't hit but what enemy are you using here? One, I eliminated the extra GWM damage. Two, you can't expect that many enemies to be incapacitated.
2. Okay, what would the TW look like with out the take 10?

[AgentPaper]

1. There is something seriously wrong with your math if the former is only dealing 33 damage per round as a base. An attack he should be using at a base should be 15 which means 60 with no dice or GWM. Now, a few won't hit but what enemy are you using here? One, I eliminated the extra GWM damage. Two, you can't expect that many enemies to be incapacitated.
2. Okay, what would the TW look like with out the take 10?

For GW Battle Master:
Greatsword deals 2d6 damage, with the GW fighting style that averages out to 8.16 damage. 22 strength increases damage by 6, GWSupremacy increases it by another 2 for a total of 16.16 damage per hit on average. Proficiency bonus of 6 combined with another +6 from strength gives you a +12 to-hit bonus. Against an AC of 19, that's a 65% chance to hit, or 10.5 damage on average.

Each hit has a 15% chance of being a critical hit, and on a critical hit you deal additional damage: 8.16 from re-rolling your weapon dice, +12 from your to-hit bonus, and +8 from your static bonuses, for a total of 28.16 extra damage on average with a critical hit. Multiply that by the 15% chance and you add an average of 4.2 damage to each of your attacks due to critical hits, or 14.7 damage per attack.

With 4 attacks in an action, that's 58.9 damage per attack action, on average. I don't know what extra damage you removed, so perhaps that's why I'm calculating 59 now instead of 61, or I may have made a slight error in my previous calculations.

You can use the same formulas as a base for the normal GW Battle Fighter if you just remove the champion bonuses. That's 13.16 damage on a hit, 60% chance to hit, for an average of 7.9 damage, 8.16 damage on a crit 5% of the time for an extra 0.4 extra damage, and 8.3 times 4 attacks gives you 33.2 damage per attack action.

Edit: Just ran a bit of math, and it turns out that Power Attack makes GWF deal slightly more damage on anything with an AC of 22 or less, which is everything but a Tarrasque. It's not a massive amount more, but considering that it allows you to overcome resistance and even immunity, it means that you can safely ignore those and just full power attack every time without worry. Against our same 19 AC as before, it deals an average of 64.8 damage per attack action.

[Amnoriath]

For GW Battle Master:
Greatsword deals 2d6 damage, with the GW fighting style that averages out to 8.16 damage. 22 strength increases damage by 6, GWSupremacy increases it by another 2 for a total of 16.16 damage per hit on average. Proficiency bonus of 6 combined with another +6 from strength gives you a +12 to-hit bonus. Against an AC of 19, that's a 65% chance to hit, or 10.5 damage on average.

Each hit has a 15% chance of being a critical hit, and on a critical hit you deal additional damage: 8.16 from re-rolling your weapon dice, +12 from your to-hit bonus, and +8 from your static bonuses, for a total of 28.16 extra damage on average with a critical hit. Multiply that by the 15% chance and you add an average of 4.2 damage to each of your attacks due to critical hits, or 14.7 damage per attack.

With 4 attacks in an action, that's 58.9 damage per attack action, on average. I don't know what extra damage you removed, so perhaps that's why I'm calculating 59 now instead of 61, or I may have made a slight error in my previous calculations.

You can use the same formulas as a base for the normal GW Battle Fighter if you just remove the champion bonuses. That's 13.16 damage on a hit, 60% chance to hit, for an average of 7.9 damage, 8.16 damage on a crit 5% of the time for an extra 0.4 extra damage, and 8.3 times 4 attacks gives you 33.2 damage per attack action.

Edit: Just ran a bit of math, and it turns out that Power Attack makes GWF deal slightly more damage on anything with an AC of 22 or less, which is everything but a Tarrasque. It's not a massive amount more, but considering that it allows you to overcome resistance and even immunity, it means that you can safely ignore those and just full power attack every time without worry. Against our same 19 AC as before, it deals an average of 64.8 damage per attack action.
1. Hold on, two-handed fighters only add a single strength modifier in damage, just like any other attack except a regular off-hand.
2. Your additional critical damage for the Champ is more than the base. My wording should have never given anything more than double, especially since I excluded GWM damage.

[AgentPaper]

1. Hold on, two-handed fighters only add a single strength modifier in damage, just like any other attack except a regular off-hand.
2. Your additional critical damage for the Champ is more than the base. My wording should have never given anything more than double, especially since I excluded GWM damage.

They only add one strength modifier to their normal damage, and that's what I did. They apply their strength modifier three times when they make a critical hit, though: Once from the normal damage of the attack (like everyone else), once from Improved Critical, which adds their to-hit bonus, and a third time from Superior Critical, which adds their static bonus to the extra damage roll. If you add everything together, you deal an average of 44.32 damage on a critical hit.

[Amnoriath]

They only add one strength modifier to their normal damage, and that's what I did. They apply their strength modifier three times when they make a critical hit, though: Once from the normal damage of the attack (like everyone else), once from Improved Critical, which adds their to-hit bonus, and a third time from Superior Critical, which adds their static bonus to the extra damage roll. If you add everything together, you deal an average of 44.32 damage on a critical hit.

No, that is wrong when you make a critical you only add another re-roll of dice, no additional damage. I added those bonuses to gradually give an effective double damage. If you are treating strength here as static it isn't because it can be decreased or increased depending on what you have or you are facing. Additionally, since you are not using a magical weapon where does the 8 static bonus come from? It should only be a total of 4.

[Amnoriath]

Change Log:
1. Two-Weapon Supremacy has been changed to a single attack re-roll a round
2. Defense Supremacy critical negation has been moved to Specialization and has been replaced with a single take 10 a round on a save.
3. Protection Supremacy has been given an area of effect extension ability.
4. Duelist Supremacy now allows them to act in the surprise round.
5. Great Weapon Supremacy no longer adds Great Weapon Mastery to its critical damage.

[Amnoriath]

UPDATE:
I have massive rehauled the subclass. Listing the changes would be too numerous so instead I will summarize why I believe it needed to be changed. What I first made focused on various combat styles which should be the job of other specific subclasses. The concept of the Champion conversely is more of a general paragon of warriors and their myths. In essence the more Fightery Fighter. So, I simplified it drastically keeping the basics and expanding on base Fighter features. Despite that there is enough choice in the class that it could be somewhat malleable to what ever concept a person may have while being effective in other things outside of battle at least a couple of times per day.

[Inchoroi]

One alternative I wanted to mention...

In my games, we've loaded the Champion archetype into the basic class, so fighters get it automatically. Makes things a lot easier and more fun.

[Amnoriath]

One alternative I wanted to mention...

In my games, we've loaded the Champion archetype into the basic class, so fighters get it automatically. Makes things a lot easier and more fun.

Okay, while that may be fine in your group that leaves 2 resource managers to choose from. As such it defeats the intention of the subclass. So, could you please comment on what I did on if it keeps true to that intention while being fairly effective in comparison to those mentioned before?

[AgentPaper]

Improved Critical: At level 3 you may treat any physical attack you make as a critical if you roll a 19 or 20.

Same as before, though not sure why you changed the wording. Which is odd, as this is exactly where the Battle Master pulls way ahead of the Champion. Dealing twice as many crits may sound fun, but pales in comparison to an extra 4d8 damage every short rest in all but the most contrived situations. If you want to fix the Champion, this is where it needs to happen.


Malleable Prowess: At level 3 if your Dexterity score is higher than your Strength you may use it for any non-heavy weapon and Athletics checks instead of Strength. If your Strength score is higher than you may use it in making Initiative and Acrobatics checks instead of Dexterity. Additionally if a feat, item, or ability has a prerequisite of a Strength or Dexterity score you may use the other score for the prerequisite if it equals or exceeds the score.

So basically, Strength replaces Dexterity, or vice versa? That is...very strange. Why? How does this make sense? Why would a Champion get this? The fighter already gets the most ASIs of all the classes, so giving them another dump stat to ignore seems...strange, especially since Fighters don't really suffer from MAD in the first place, in fact they're about as SAD as classes get, especially dexterity-based fighters.


Omnicable Being: At level 7 you add 1 to any ability score you choose and choose one specified action that takes an action except for the Attack or Ready actions you may now use it as a bonus action. Additionally you may choose 4 ability checks and/or saves in which you aren't proficient in to add 1+1/2 prof. bonus(round down) to the roll. If you would become proficient later you must choose another save or check that you aren't proficient with. You also may use your Dexterity modifier instead of Strength for Strength saves if it is higher. If your Strength modifier is higher you may use it instead of your Dexterity for Dexterity saves.

Wow, that's...a lot of stuff. Compared to what the other sub-classes get at level 7, this is just absurd. And it's not like Remarkable Athlete was in dire need of fixing, either. It did it's job, was no worse than the other level 7 features (arguably better), and was simple and easy to understand.

This, on the other hand, is 3 kinds of broken. So, now you can Dodge every round as a bonus action. That's already more than strong enough to be a feature on it's own. The only other class that can do that is the Monk, and he needs to spend a resource to do so. Or if you're feeling especially abusive, you pick "Cast a Spell" as your action, swing into Warlock, and toss out double Eldritch Blast every turn. And that's just the simple actions, this is open-ended, so there's almost certainly a whole slew of more obscure actions that become abusive in bonus action form. This definitely needs to be a "pick one of" kind of thing, and you need to think carefully about which actions you allow the fighter to take as a bonus action.

On top of that, you also give the fighter four free super-proficiencies in whatever saves or skills he likes. Two of those are certain to be Dexterity and Wisdom saves, giving you the best saves in the game. Then you can take whatever skills you want, with no regard for whether it makes sense for a fighter to be good at it or not, and in fact you are somehow inexplicably better at the stuff you used to be bad at, compared to the things you've supposedly be practicing your entire career.

And then, to top it off, you get even more overlap between Dexterity and Srength, which continues to be a bad idea for the reasons I mentioned above, on top of being completely unnecessary for an already over-stuffed level.


Dauntless: At level 10 you gain Resilient as a bonus feat. If you already have it you may swap it out for something else. When you use your Second Wind feature if you would gain more hit points than needed to be healed you gain the rest as temporary hit points for 1 minute. Additionally you may use your Second Wind feature once any time you rolled for Initiative. Though either you or some being you are protecting must be in mortal danger to gain a use this way and disappears once the threat is overcome or it is used as normal. You can use the Indomitable feature for ability checks as well as gaining one more use of it.

This is just weird. You get Resilient, except that you don't need it because you already granted the fighter free proficiency in their saving throws earlier.

Not wasting saving wind healing is nifty, but ultimately probably not very relevant, since at this point it heals just a fraction of your health and thus won't be over-healing very much compared to early levels. Instead, it just makes it likely that the fighter will use it in advance, starting the battle with free hitpoints. Which kind of breaks the flavor of it being a Second Wind, when you use it before you even do anything.

Recharging second wind on initiative, and especially the conditions you gave, is just asking for abuse and player/DM arguments. What constitutes "mortal danger"?

And then just for the hell of it you let them re-roll ability checks with Indomitable because who ever heard of flavor?


Action Surge: At level 10 you gain one more use of Action Surge.

Now this one I can get behind. Simple, powerful, and easy to understand. This is exactly the kind of bonus that an improved Champion should be getting.


Eclectic Form: At level 15 your critical range is 18-20 for any physical attack you make and you may add your to hit attribute again to the critical damage roll. If you possess a weapon that has a higher magical bonus than another you may use the higher one when using the lower one. This may even apply to a non-magical weapon so long as you are wielding it and the other is still on your person. The same is true for a piece of armor or shield you possess. Additionally you can ignore the armament requirements of your fighting style and may select another one. As such you can use both the Duelist style and Great Weapon fighting style even if you aren't even using a melee weapon. Finally you may choose one more specified action as per the rules of Omnicable Being

Ok, this is just all kinds of weird. You can keep a magic dagger in your belt and somehow that lets you use a Greataxe as if it were that dagger? Even if you meant "wield" rather than "possess", it's still weird and fiddly and ultimately not very exciting. I guess there may be a few situations where this would be useful but it's just so mind-bendingly unintuitive that I'd rather pretend I don't have the ability rather than try to figure out a good use for it.

Ignoring weapon type requirements, again, just destroys all the flavor of fighting styles, and ultimately is a fairly minor bonus at this stage in the game. Everyone is going to take Archery as their second style anyways (except archers of course), so this is essentially a free +2 to-hit, but granted in an inexplicably circuitous and confusing way.


True Survivor: At level 18 you are immune to the Frightened condition and your cap for your physical ability scores is now 22. When you use your Second Wind feature and take damage you heal your 1+constitution modifier(minimum 1) for the round which may even replenish temporary hit points gained from your Second Wind. This lasts for 1 minute after you have used your Second Wind feature. Finally, when you are about to roll for a save or ability check you can use an Indomitable use to treat the roll as a 20 as well as gaining one more use of Indomitable.


So, you can go up to 22 in your stats, ok fine, you're a little mini-barbarian. This should probably raise your stats by 2 at the same time, since you only get one more ASI after this, so you really can only increase one of your stats to 22. Getting +2 to your Strength, Dex, and Constitution would actually make for a pretty nice little capstone all on it's own.

But, of course, we can't have anything simple, so two more arbitrary bonuses. I don't even know how the Second Wind healing feature is meant to work, so I don't know whether it's super OP (heal 1+con every time you take a hit) or under-powered and kind of redundant (if you use Second Wind after taking damage, you heal an extra 1+con).

Free 20s on your saves and abilities, on the other hand, is just nuts. You're not essentially a legendary creature, something tries to cast a spell on you or whatever and you just say, "Nope." Again, this could be a fairly interesting ability if you had just flat-out said, "You can automatically succeed on a saving throw once per long rest." or something along those lines, though I'd warn that that is already powerful enough to make a good capstone.



Overall, I don't really think that the Champion is a archetype in need of fixing. It's meant to be a simple class that new players can jump into and have fun without having to worry about fiddly abilities or spells. If you're savvy enough to recognize how under-powered the Champion is, then it is not the archetype for you. There are two other, perfectly useful archetypes for you to use instead.

That said, if you really like the idea of a champion, and want to boost it to compete better with the other archetypes, this is exactly the wrong way to do it. You're adding way too many fiddly little bonuses and convoluted abilities that just turn the champion into an unintuitive, over-complicated mess.

If you're going to "fix" the champion, I'd suggest trying a lighter touch. Stay true to the simple, straightforwards nature of the build, since that's what makes it unique and distinctive in the first place. Make the smallest possible changes to get what you want, and only add new features if you absolutely have to.

Personally, if I were to change the Champion, I'd do this:

Improved Critical: At level 3, you crit on an 18-20.
Remarkable Athlete: No changes.
Additional Fighting Style: Replace with Extra Action Surge.
Superior Critical: Replace with Survivor.
Survivor: Replace with Legendary Champion: Once per long rest, you can automatically succeed on a saving throw.

[Amnoriath]

Same as before, though not sure why you changed the wording. Which is odd, as this is exactly where the Battle Master pulls way ahead of the Champion. Dealing twice as many crits may sound fun, but pales in comparison to an extra 4d8 damage every short rest in all but the most contrived situations. If you want to fix the Champion, this is where it needs to happen.



So basically, Strength replaces Dexterity, or vice versa? That is...very strange. Why? How does this make sense? Why would a Champion get this? The fighter already gets the most ASIs of all the classes, so giving them another dump stat to ignore seems...strange, especially since Fighters don't really suffer from MAD in the first place, in fact they're about as SAD as classes get, especially dexterity-based fighters.



Wow, that's...a lot of stuff. Compared to what the other sub-classes get at level 7, this is just absurd. And it's not like Remarkable Athlete was in dire need of fixing, either. It did it's job, was no worse than the other level 7 features (arguably better), and was simple and easy to understand.

This, on the other hand, is 3 kinds of broken. So, now you can Dodge every round as a bonus action. That's already more than strong enough to be a feature on it's own. The only other class that can do that is the Monk, and he needs to spend a resource to do so. Or if you're feeling especially abusive, you pick "Cast a Spell" as your action, swing into Warlock, and toss out double Eldritch Blast every turn. And that's just the simple actions, this is open-ended, so there's almost certainly a whole slew of more obscure actions that become abusive in bonus action form. This definitely needs to be a "pick one of" kind of thing, and you need to think carefully about which actions you allow the fighter to take as a bonus action.

On top of that, you also give the fighter four free super-proficiencies in whatever saves or skills he likes. Two of those are certain to be Dexterity and Wisdom saves, giving you the best saves in the game. Then you can take whatever skills you want, with no regard for whether it makes sense for a fighter to be good at it or not, and in fact you are somehow inexplicably better at the stuff you used to be bad at, compared to the things you've supposedly be practicing your entire career.

And then, to top it off, you get even more overlap between Dexterity and Srength, which continues to be a bad idea for the reasons I mentioned above, on top of being completely unnecessary for an already over-stuffed level.



This is just weird. You get Resilient, except that you don't need it because you already granted the fighter free proficiency in their saving throws earlier.

Not wasting saving wind healing is nifty, but ultimately probably not very relevant, since at this point it heals just a fraction of your health and thus won't be over-healing very much compared to early levels. Instead, it just makes it likely that the fighter will use it in advance, starting the battle with free hitpoints. Which kind of breaks the flavor of it being a Second Wind, when you use it before you even do anything.

Recharging second wind on initiative, and especially the conditions you gave, is just asking for abuse and player/DM arguments. What constitutes "mortal danger"?

And then just for the hell of it you let them re-roll ability checks with Indomitable because who ever heard of flavor?



Now this one I can get behind. Simple, powerful, and easy to understand. This is exactly the kind of bonus that an improved Champion should be getting.



Ok, this is just all kinds of weird. You can keep a magic dagger in your belt and somehow that lets you use a Greataxe as if it were that dagger? Even if you meant "wield" rather than "possess", it's still weird and fiddly and ultimately not very exciting. I guess there may be a few situations where this would be useful but it's just so mind-bendingly unintuitive that I'd rather pretend I don't have the ability rather than try to figure out a good use for it.

Ignoring weapon type requirements, again, just destroys all the flavor of fighting styles, and ultimately is a fairly minor bonus at this stage in the game. Everyone is going to take Archery as their second style anyways (except archers of course), so this is essentially a free +2 to-hit, but granted in an inexplicably circuitous and confusing way.




So, you can go up to 22 in your stats, ok fine, you're a little mini-barbarian. This should probably raise your stats by 2 at the same time, since you only get one more ASI after this, so you really can only increase one of your stats to 22. Getting +2 to your Strength, Dex, and Constitution would actually make for a pretty nice little capstone all on it's own.

But, of course, we can't have anything simple, so two more arbitrary bonuses. I don't even know how the Second Wind healing feature is meant to work, so I don't know whether it's super OP (heal 1+con every time you take a hit) or under-powered and kind of redundant (if you use Second Wind after taking damage, you heal an extra 1+con).

Free 20s on your saves and abilities, on the other hand, is just nuts. You're not essentially a legendary creature, something tries to cast a spell on you or whatever and you just say, "Nope." Again, this could be a fairly interesting ability if you had just flat-out said, "You can automatically succeed on a saving throw once per long rest." or something along those lines, though I'd warn that that is already powerful enough to make a good capstone.



Overall, I don't really think that the Champion is a archetype in need of fixing. It's meant to be a simple class that new players can jump into and have fun without having to worry about fiddly abilities or spells. If you're savvy enough to recognize how under-powered the Champion is, then it is not the archetype for you. There are two other, perfectly useful archetypes for you to use instead.

That said, if you really like the idea of a champion, and want to boost it to compete better with the other archetypes, this is exactly the wrong way to do it. You're adding way too many fiddly little bonuses and convoluted abilities that just turn the champion into an unintuitive, over-complicated mess.

If you're going to "fix" the champion, I'd suggest trying a lighter touch. Stay true to the simple, straightforwards nature of the build, since that's what makes it unique and distinctive in the first place. Make the smallest possible changes to get what you want, and only add new features if you absolutely have to.

Personally, if I were to change the Champion, I'd do this:

Improved Critical: At level 3, you crit on an 18-20.
Remarkable Athlete: No changes.
Additional Fighting Style: Replace with Extra Action Surge.
Superior Critical: Replace with Survivor.
Survivor: Replace with Legendary Champion: Once per long rest, you can automatically succeed on a saving throw.

1. It is meant as a way to make choosing a to hit ability score a bit more uniform in its advantages. It is more for Strength than Dexterity. It wasn't that I thought the Fighter was MAD just thought it would be simple for the player to work with and that it doesn't matter much in the myth of the Champion which ability score they use.
2. Casting a spell isn't a specific action that takes an action as it can be any amount of actions or time so that is explicitly excluded even if it wasn't stated directly. As for Dodge sure you could but if you are spamming use of that you aren't the target to get rid of. So, you chose something that doesn't stack defensively with other conditions over giving advantage to any one on anything(Help) or use whatever item for any thing it does(Use Object). I am not saying it isn't a good choice for what it is but it is only defense that doesn't apply against those you don't see.
3. Remarkable Athlete is an ability that is strictly worse than Jack of All Trades and really only nets an initiative boost and completely non-optimal utility. As such it needed fixing to give affect advantage over Jack of All Trades.
4. I did that so that Slippery Mind would have affect advantage. I know its weird but you also have the +3's that could go to the saves and it evens out the ability scores.
5. It means either it is enough of challenge to you personally or it poses danger to some being pertaining to the current story. So, you can't go hunting wild game to gain a use of it nor can you pick a fight with commoners. It also means you can't stick your nose someone else's business to claim the other is in danger.
6. Actually, it is with in the flavor I specified. In my update the Champion is a fighter that is a summary of warrior's and tales. So being able to overcome skills in light of failure is a classic trope in those stories.
7. Finally something we can agree.
8. This was one of the things I actually said I personally wanted to steer away from in the Update. A Champion isn't about how they wield a weapon or the master of a certain kind of one. That is something better for other sub-classes to capitalize on. Here I wanted to open up options to not only allow for those who maybe felt a little cornered(Sword and Board, Two-Weapon Fighting) but also go with the flavor that the Champion doesn't need the specific armament to do whatever because it is inherent in them. I also think that the styles are far better exemplified in feats, certain spells, or other unique features so allowing them to stack is a minimal hindrance. The Archery style is only worth picking up if you are a Heavy weapon user otherwise Duelist is more consistent and heck maybe they started with one of the Defensive ones or Two-Weapon so Great Weapon could still be on the table.
9. While the +2's would be simpler it would mean that this Fighter would have more ability score increases than the level 20 Barbarian. So I wanted to be light in that department. I also thought the immunity was very fitting to the theme.
10. Well, keep in mind a Second Wind is used on your turn so it can't be reactionary and must occur after. What it means is that at most you have 10 rounds of effectiveness before it ends or use your standard Second Wind. By resource managing the original was better as it doubled the length of your restoration die, but this is better for battle as you don't have to wait until you are half-dead for you to get your healing which could mean you don't have much longer.
11. It may seem ridiculous but they only can do so 5 times a day. There are going to be lots of both and keep in mind it isn't an auto-success. If done using the Omnicable Being bonus and a moderate ability score that amounts to 25. There are a couple of creatures with higher save DC's and that only breaches a Very Hard check. Yes it is more is you have full in both but you aren't going to use them in that area 5 times a day much less all the time like specialists.
12. As for your changes your critical changes just compounds the issue I first mentioned that a Champion dip is better at being a Crit.-fisher than one of its namesake abilities. You know my other stances. The capstone is completely underwhelming as it is one a day auto-save in all likelihood won't change the outcome of a battle.

[AgentPaper]

1. It is meant as a way to make choosing a to hit ability score a bit more uniform in its advantages. It is more for Strength than Dexterity. It wasn't that I thought the Fighter was MAD just thought it would be simple for the player to work with and that it doesn't matter much in the myth of the Champion which ability score they use.

It's the difference between Legolas and Gimli. If you want to make a character that's both agile and strong, you can do that by making them both agile (high dexterity) and strong (high strength). Making strength and dexterity redundant is just a bad idea in so many ways that I don't know where to start.


2. Casting a spell isn't a specific action that takes an action as it can be any amount of actions or time so that is explicitly excluded even if it wasn't stated directly. As for Dodge sure you could but if you are spamming use of that you aren't the target to get rid of. So, you chose something that doesn't stack defensively with other conditions over giving advantage to any one on anything(Help) or use whatever item for any thing it does(Use Object). I am not saying it isn't a good choice for what it is but it is only defense that doesn't apply against those you don't see.

Actually, it is explicitly an action. It's listed as "Cast a Spell" right in the same section as all the other actions. Page 192 of the PHB. And saying it doesn't matter how tough you are to hit because enemies will go around you ignores the fact that you can do this while also dealing tons of damage. Being only defensive doesn't change the fact that it's still absurdly good at helping you not die. Will it break the game in half? No, probably not, but that doesn't keep it from being too powerful.

You're also taking more time to explain what "you get to pick an action to use as a bonus action" means, when you could simply say, "Pick one of: Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, Search, or Use an Object. You can use that action as a bonus action. Which is still really powerful and not really necessary, but it's better than leaving it open-ended and inviting confusion and abuse.


3. Remarkable Athlete is an ability that is strictly worse than Jack of All Trades and really only nets an initiative boost and completely non-optimal utility. As such it needed fixing to give affect advantage over Jack of All Trades.

Jack of All Trades is one of the core abilities of a Bard, so yes, I would expect it not to be that powerful. Not all features are meant to be the same power level.


4. I did that so that Slippery Mind would have affect advantage. I know its weird but you also have the +3's that could go to the saves and it evens out the ability scores.

I don't understand what you're saying here, or even what this is in response to.


5. It means either it is enough of challenge to you personally or it poses danger to some being pertaining to the current story. So, you can't go hunting wild game to gain a use of it nor can you pick a fight with commoners. It also means you can't stick your nose someone else's business to claim the other is in danger.

But see, you're giving examples, not a definition. What about if my friend threatens to stab me? And then actually tries to stab me? I'll be taking the dodge action and he's using a small blade so I won't take much damage each time, but would that count as mortal danger? If not, what about fighting a goblin that's trying to capture me for ransom? It's basically the same situation, someone attacking me that has no real hope of killing me, and doesn't intend to.

There's a million corner cases like this where the DM will have to decide which way to rule. Sure, he'll make the ruling and it'll probably work out OK most of the time, but the fact that it's necessary is a sign that this is a poorly designed ability.


6. Actually, it is with in the flavor I specified. In my update the Champion is a fighter that is a summary of warrior's and tales. So being able to overcome skills in light of failure is a classic trope in those stories.

"Good at basically everything" is not a common trope of heroic tales. Those are filled with times when the hero has to ask others to help him with stuff, or times when the hero is out-smarted by a crafty foe, or where they fall into vice due to a weak willpower, etc. You're just making the champion generally good at everything, which is a common trope, but in fanfiction, not legends about warriors.


8. This was one of the things I actually said I personally wanted to steer away from in the Update. A Champion isn't about how they wield a weapon or the master of a certain kind of one. That is something better for other sub-classes to capitalize on. Here I wanted to open up options to not only allow for those who maybe felt a little cornered(Sword and Board, Two-Weapon Fighting) but also go with the flavor that the Champion doesn't need the specific armament to do whatever because it is inherent in them. I also think that the styles are far better exemplified in feats, certain spells, or other unique features so allowing them to stack is a minimal hindrance. The Archery style is only worth picking up if you are a Heavy weapon user otherwise Duelist is more consistent and heck maybe they started with one of the Defensive ones or Two-Weapon so Great Weapon could still be on the table.

Granting an extra fighting style already does this. All you're doing is making things more confusing and removing all the flavor and interesting choices that Fighting Styles are there to add.


9. While the +2's would be simpler it would mean that this Fighter would have more ability score increases than the level 20 Barbarian. So I wanted to be light in that department. I also thought the immunity was very fitting to the theme.

So, instead of adding one strong, thematic and interesting ability, you've chosen to water it down and add in two more abilities, which also need to be watered down to prevent them from being strong.


10. Well, keep in mind a Second Wind is used on your turn so it can't be reactionary and must occur after. What it means is that at most you have 10 rounds of effectiveness before it ends or use your standard Second Wind. By resource managing the original was better as it doubled the length of your restoration die, but this is better for battle as you don't have to wait until you are half-dead for you to get your healing which could mean you don't have much longer.

See, the problem here is, I read the ability description, and now you've explained it further, and then I went back and read it again, and I still have no clue what it actually does.


11. It may seem ridiculous but they only can do so 5 times a day. There are going to be lots of both and keep in mind it isn't an auto-success. If done using the Omnicable Being bonus and a moderate ability score that amounts to 25. There are a couple of creatures with higher save DC's and that only breaches a Very Hard check. Yes it is more is you have full in both but you aren't going to use them in that area 5 times a day much less all the time like specialists.

Five times is a lot, and you're going to have more than a +5 bonus to the stuff that matters by this point.


12. As for your changes your critical changes just compounds the issue I first mentioned that a Champion dip is better at being a Crit.-fisher than one of its namesake abilities. You know my other stances. The capstone is completely underwhelming as it is one a day which doesn't even change the outcome of a battle.

What's wrong with people taking 3 levels to get improved critical? If that's what they took the class for, then good for them, they've got a build in mind, and it's probably fun. People do the same thing with many other classes and sub-classes all the time, so I don't see any reason it'd be worse here. People who want to be a champion will keep taking the class, and that's great too.

As for the capstone, I think you're underestimating the power of being able to just say "No" to a saving throw when it really matters. Lich casts Power Word: Kill on you? "No." Ancient Blue Dragon about to hit you with his lightning breath? "Nope." Pit Fiend terrifying everyone with it's Fear Aura? "Not me!"

I would change the wording to match the legendary resistance, though, so that you can use it after failing a save, rather than needing to choose before, but other than that I really don't think it needs anything else.

Remember that these are all class features on top of what the fighter gets normally. If you want to compare these features to something else, compare it to what the other sub-classes get, specifically the Battle Master. Match your abilities up to that, not core features of other classes.

[Amnoriath]

It's the difference between Legolas and Gimli. If you want to make a character that's both agile and strong, you can do that by making them both agile (high dexterity) and strong (high strength). Making strength and dexterity redundant is just a bad idea in so many ways that I don't know where to start.



Actually, it is explicitly an action. It's listed as "Cast a Spell" right in the same section as all the other actions. Page 192 of the PHB. And saying it doesn't matter how tough you are to hit because enemies will go around you ignores the fact that you can do this while also dealing tons of damage. Being only defensive doesn't change the fact that it's still absurdly good at helping you not die. Will it break the game in half? No, probably not, but that doesn't keep it from being too powerful.

You're also taking more time to explain what "you get to pick an action to use as a bonus action" means, when you could simply say, "Pick one of: Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, Search, or Use an Object. You can use that action as a bonus action. Which is still really powerful and not really necessary, but it's better than leaving it open-ended and inviting confusion and abuse.



Jack of All Trades is one of the core abilities of a Bard, so yes, I would expect it not to be that powerful. Not all features are meant to be the same power level.



I don't understand what you're saying here, or even what this is in response to.



But see, you're giving examples, not a definition. What about if my friend threatens to stab me? And then actually tries to stab me? I'll be taking the dodge action and he's using a small blade so I won't take much damage each time, but would that count as mortal danger? If not, what about fighting a goblin that's trying to capture me for ransom? It's basically the same situation, someone attacking me that has no real hope of killing me, and doesn't intend to.

There's a million corner cases like this where the DM will have to decide which way to rule. Sure, he'll make the ruling and it'll probably work out OK most of the time, but the fact that it's necessary is a sign that this is a poorly designed ability.



"Good at basically everything" is not a common trope of heroic tales. Those are filled with times when the hero has to ask others to help him with stuff, or times when the hero is out-smarted by a crafty foe, or where they fall into vice due to a weak willpower, etc. You're just making the champion generally good at everything, which is a common trope, but in fanfiction, not legends about warriors.



Granting an extra fighting style already does this. All you're doing is making things more confusing and removing all the flavor and interesting choices that Fighting Styles are there to add.



So, instead of adding one strong, thematic and interesting ability, you've chosen to water it down and add in two more abilities, which also need to be watered down to prevent them from being strong.



See, the problem here is, I read the ability description, and now you've explained it further, and then I went back and read it again, and I still have no clue what it actually does.



Five times is a lot, and you're going to have more than a +5 bonus to the stuff that matters by this point.



What's wrong with people taking 3 levels to get improved critical? If that's what they took the class for, then good for them, they've got a build in mind, and it's probably fun. People do the same thing with many other classes and sub-classes all the time, so I don't see any reason it'd be worse here. People who want to be a champion will keep taking the class, and that's great too.

As for the capstone, I think you're underestimating the power of being able to just say "No" to a saving throw when it really matters. Lich casts Power Word: Kill on you? "No." Ancient Blue Dragon about to hit you with his lightning breath? "Nope." Pit Fiend terrifying everyone with it's Fear Aura? "Not me!"

I would change the wording to match the legendary resistance, though, so that you can use it after failing a save, rather than needing to choose before, but other than that I really don't think it needs anything else.

Remember that these are all class features on top of what the fighter gets normally. If you want to compare these features to something else, compare it to what the other sub-classes get, specifically the Battle Master. Match your abilities up to that, not core features of other classes.
1. But in truth Legalos performed many feats of Strength with his Dexterity. The same could be said with Gimli with the opposite in some situations.
2. But in that description it waves it away saying that not all spells are actions. I will change the wording though.
3. One level before a Barbarian can be immune to the Frightened and Charmed conditions. Paladin of Devotion is immune to charmed as well as those around him. The Thief gets all kinds of new options well before that as well as easy climbing..etc
4. But he isn't initiating nor you are actually a fight though necessarily. Mechanically you don't need to roll initiative for your defense to apply. As such there is no need for a DM ruling against it.
5. He isn't good at everything. He just doesn't falter as much as specialists outside of their specialties. It is the same rules as Indomitable. Call it a form of luck.
6. The only thing I have removed is the restriction of one offensive style with one weapon type. In the alternative you only could stack Defense style. That isn't flavor that is just labeling. If anything I am allowing to have a story in which they have learned to look past the weapon, shield, or armor having them fuse styles. Ultimately I don't see how it eliminates anything beneficial or thematic when they can actually choose more things because they can both apply regardless.
7. Roll Initiative, Turn 1 bonus action: Second Wind...etc, creature attacks and hits Turn 2 heal 6 damage...etc, creature attacks and misses, Turn 3 nothing. Creature attacks twice and hits both times, Turn 4 heals 6 damage, This lasts for 6 more rounds.
8. As a basis you will have 4 skills and 3 saves with full proficiency bonus, 4 others with 4 you would have one ability score with +6, a second +5,. So in the best case scenario of L20 Champion is a 32. Yes the save here will protect you to the extent of what the ability says and you can make an epic check but just barely. The use though expects you not to know what you called have rolled. It may be the best result but maybe you didn't need it. The number 5 sounds like a lot but the Battlemaster can at most have 7 die(with a feat) per short rest and ultimately they only can use about 2 or 3 each meaningful battle.
9. What is wrong is that your core offense feature in your hands looks pitiful in comparison to that of a Barbarian with Champion dip. All the while your other features can't culminate to much of a distinct or even convenient strategy.
10. Power Words don't allow a save and many abilities with saves allow partial effect. At best it cancels one card that can only be used once but when it isn't the best case scenario you still don't have your card. I admit I am not much of a fan once per long rest abilities but 4 levels earlier the Fiend pact warlock had an ability that could remove an enemy automatically after an attack and deal 10d10 psychic damage. If you have a capstone of once per long rest it had better make a real difference in battle.

[Inchoroi]

Okay, while that may be fine in your group that leaves 2 resource managers to choose from. As such it defeats the intention of the subclass. So, could you please comment on what I did on if it keeps true to that intention while being fairly effective in comparison to those mentioned before?

Honestly, what you've written has been discussed already, and any salient points that need to be said have already been said by AgentPaper. There's nothing at all I can say that he hasn't already. The subclass is way overpowered and is trying to do something unnecessary.

[DiBastet]

I like the new abilities actually, if not the mechanic at least the spirit of them. I'm not gonna batch, but I think most of them could keep the same spirit while being a lot simpler. I'm gonna use their spirit as basis for my own champion fix.

[Amnoriath]

Okay, simplified some of the abilities and changed the capstone a bit.

[CrusaderJoe]

After reading this and many other Fighter threads I've come to realize that, like the 3.5 fighter, way to much weight is placed on extra attacks (3.5 Fighter could easily go down the terrible for her TWF route). Sure in 5e the Fighter can be effective at killing things, but with the way saving throws work and other aspects of the game she ends up being more or less a Pokemon... Forgotten until battle and then thrown out there to kill.

I think because you have extra attacks you can't really fix the fighter correctly.

That being said I like where some of this is going. However I have one issue. Second Wind healing sucks after level... 4 or 5 it just doesn't do enough healing to be worth anything other than pre-short rest starter healing.

I would say instead of giving temp HP just make second wind heal 25% HP per use. It won't be a cleric or a paladin but will remain useful at 1/short rest.

[Amnoriath]

After reading this and many other Fighter threads I've come to realize that, like the 3.5 fighter, way to much weight is placed on extra attacks (3.5 Fighter could easily go down the terrible for her TWF route). Sure in 5e the Fighter can be effective at killing things, but with the way saving throws work and other aspects of the game she ends up being more or less a Pokemon... Forgotten until battle and then thrown out there to kill.

I think because you have extra attacks you can't really fix the fighter correctly.

That being said I like where some of this is going. However I have one issue. Second Wind healing sucks after level... 4 or 5 it just doesn't do enough healing to be worth anything other than pre-short rest starter healing.

I would say instead of giving temp HP just make second wind heal 25% HP per use. It won't be a cleric or a paladin but will remain useful at 1/short rest.

1. Well 5e at the very least gave a couple of key things to where this can remedied rather easily. The sub-classes is the area where specialties can be made without any major overhaul. It also has 2 more ASI's than normal meaning they can get more perks to contribute in ways other than battle. I mainly think the issue is does it make sense for a Fighter or a high level character? Some concepts on their own encompass a smaller field so to me the question than becomes can they do it more reliably and do they have a better chassis in comparison to casters?
2. Hopefully that means you like it. The concept of the Champion puts it just outside of what I expect a subclass would do so I hope that it has a sort of mythic but tamed and generalist quality with some tanking.
3. You gain 1 more use at that level and than another at 18. Since you don't need to roll that is 90 hit points so that is more than a 1/3 of your typical Fighter's hit points. I know I removed the pseudo-fast healing but ultimately that feature wasn't going to shift performance all that much. It actually is better at conserving your rest hit die more than anything

[CrusaderJoe]

1. Well 5e at the very least gave a couple of key things to where this can remedied rather easily. The sub-classes is the area where specialties can be made without any major overhaul. It also has 2 more ASI's than normal meaning they can get more perks to contribute in ways other than battle. I mainly think the issue is does it make sense for a Fighter or a high level character? Some concepts on their own encompass a smaller field so to me the question than becomes can they do it more reliably and do they have a better chassis in comparison to casters?
2. Hopefully that means you like it. The concept of the Champion puts it just outside of what I expect a subclass would do so I hope that it has a sort of mythic but tamed and generalist quality with some tanking.
3. You gain 1 more use at that level and than another at 18. Since you don't need to roll that is 90 hit points so that is more than a 1/3 of your typical Fighter's hit points. I know I removed the pseudo-fast healing but ultimately that feature wasn't going to shift performance all that much. It actually is better at conserving your rest hit die more than anything

1: ASI and feats don't change the issue. The 3e fighter who has the same issues (just less competent for the system) had the most feats. Also feats are optional and ASI aren't as needed as people think. 16 and 18 will get you by for most of your career. Feats are different now but the concept is still there and that concept limits the fighter a lot.

2: I like the concept of the class, but I think you focus on the wrong areas. The champion doesn't need to fight better, in terms of damage output, just needs to be more useful with utility and such.

My combatant doesn't increase damage all that much, at least not directly, but she gains some cool things to do. Some of it is simple but not really the simple figher that some people want.

If you focus more away from direct damage (something which the champion is already good at), I think this can get better and be balanced.

3: unless I missed a change you had for second wind... Second wind is 1d10+Fighter level. Which on average at level 20 will be 26 HP. At level 20 the fighter will have (assuming +2 con and take average) 164 HP. This is a mere 16% of max HP. Doing it twice is better but the base is just... Bad. It starts as a battle tactic and becomes an afterthought. I'm going to check to see if you have a change to second wind.

More short rests are nice and it gives you more uses but when you need HP, you are still only getting 16% back. Instead of 2 uses, how about 1d10+(2*Fighter Level).

[Amnoriath]

1: ASI and feats don't change the issue. The 3e fighter who has the same issues (just less competent for the system) had the most feats. Also feats are optional and ASI aren't as needed as people think. 16 and 18 will get you by for most of your career. Feats are different now but the concept is still there and that concept limits the fighter a lot.

2: I like the concept of the class, but I think you focus on the wrong areas. The champion doesn't need to fight better, in terms of damage output, just needs to be more useful with utility and such.

My combatant doesn't increase damage all that much, at least not directly, but she gains some cool things to do. Some of it is simple but not really the simple figher that some people want.

If you focus more away from direct damage (something which the champion is already good at), I think this can get better and be balanced.

3: unless I missed a change you had for second wind... Second wind is 1d10+Fighter level. Which on average at level 20 will be 26 HP. At level 20 the fighter will have (assuming +2 con and take average) 164 HP. This is a mere 16% of max HP. Doing it twice is better but the base is just... Bad. It starts as a battle tactic and becomes an afterthought. I'm going to check to see if you have a change to second wind.

More short rests are nice and it gives you more uses but when you need HP, you are still only getting 16% back. Instead of 2 uses, how about 1d10+(2*Fighter Level).

1. Again, is that a concept of a Fighter or high level character? While it seems like semantics it is important to as to where to put them and not broaden the concept to much that other strategies as well as key ideas are sacrificed. The 3.X monk is an example of this in the non-functional sense. Other homebrew is an example of this in the broken sense.
2. This doesn't increase damage output all that much. In fact it is more based off of a sort of luck, action economy, and tanking. Indomitable also applies to ability checks in this one. Yes the additional Action Surge and 15th level helps but they really just make damage more reliable no matter what you use. The 15th also gives you another bonus action option.
3. No, it was before you commented. At level 10 it specifically said maximized and you have another use at 18. What I have is currently better.
P.S. that is all the Fighter was in 3.X and it was from a large but certain group of feats which not always included all of the fighting feats. This one allows all to be chosen from and gains many other perks.