PDA

View Full Version : NonWiz VS Wiz chalange



crazedloon
2007-03-17, 02:35 PM
I probably should not do this however I am actually interested to see what people can come up with and I am a little tired of seeing arguments in other threads. (This probably would not actually stop any arguments but could be a nice reference to show some good builds as far as caster killing)

Ok so what is the challenge?

~Build a level 20 non-spellcasting character that will be fighting against an optimized wiz 20. Have these submitted as a character sheet from the many wonderful websites out there that host them or post it here in a spoiler. It should involve level progression, Feats, skills, the wiz should have spells, and so forth and so on i.e. it should be a complete character sheet not just an idea.
~32 point buy
~you can have custom magic Items (as seen in the DMG) but a limit on price is 50,000gp (that’s pretty high so you shouldn't really have problems.) but realize so can the wizard.
~Standard WBL
~You will have to predict what the wiz will do to neutralize you as a character and counter (the main argument is that a wiz can really predict and or react to any given situation so we are testing that.) because each Wiz will be tailored to your particular character.
~All 3.5 WoTC books are legal (Unless you restrict them in your submission)

Ok I think that is enough for the background so what I need is a few people to post their Wiz opponent with tactics and a plan. Then I need a person to post a Wiz 20 with counter plan or tactic. If there is an argument or a disagreement as far as the legality or actual effect of any tactic or item then it will be left to a vote (I may make that here or elsewhere).

MOST IMPORTANT THIS THREAD IS NOT MEANT TO BE AN ARGUMENT AND YOU ARE NOT HERE TO PROVE ONE THING OR ANOTHER THIS IS A MENTAL EXERCISE FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED.

What that means is do not post unless you have a character or can clarify a dispute over a particular rule or interaction.

(I am hoping a few of the regulars to this sort of argument, such as BWL, will be willing to submit on both sides (Wiz and other). And those people probably are looking at this and thinking it is not possible or that I am an idiot :smallwink: but If you can not make a true wizard killer (who wins most the time which is sort of what I want to see) then show a character who is nearly there with only a few flaws that any prepared wiz can stop (and if you wish put how to beat them in a spoiler so you can see if someone can spot without looking at the weakness a way to beat them without the weakness you came up with.) )

If the mods have a big problem with this or feel it will invoke to much flaming feel free to close (not that I could stop you) but if they are interested and they notice any clear flaming or off topic arguments cluttering up the thread I would like to ask them if they would not mind clearing it of such things.

Emperor Demonking
2007-03-17, 02:38 PM
I'm wondering whether or not one will come up without resorting to the use magic item skill.

jlousivy
2007-03-17, 02:43 PM
I have a wizard tactic you can use-- stay away while they are awake, teleport in when they are sleeping, cast a silenced silence spell (UMD?) gate in a balor and have it coupe de grace them while they sleep. teleport away.

Bobbis
2007-03-17, 02:50 PM
Um; if you use all 3.5 books then the wizard can just start the combat with a no save 18 dex damage from a maximized shivering touch; is there no limit on the books at all?

jlousivy
2007-03-17, 02:56 PM
Also you may want to state the rules for creating characters stats.. Otherwise you might get characters with all base scores of 18

crazedloon
2007-03-17, 02:58 PM
I have a wizard tactic you can use-- stay away while they are awake, teleport in when they are sleeping, cast a silenced silence spell (UMD?) gate in a balor and have it coupe de grace them while they sleep. teleport away.

^^ EVERYONE THIS IS THE SORT OF POST I DON'T I DO NOT WANT TO SEE IT DOES NOT ADD TO THE THREAD AT ALL.

Also there is no restriction on books because I don’t want to here well the wizard could beat that if it had so and so.

And really I would like to see if someone can get past "teh uber first go pwn of teh wizard".

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-17, 03:10 PM
Ohh, just saw your post crazy loon.
But, then who makes the Wizards? Because some one has to optimize it, and this seemed like a place to post suggestions on strategies.

And just what are the terms of character creation.

martyboy74
2007-03-17, 03:10 PM
This was tried a while ago...The Logic Ninja (playing the wizard) vs. NullAshton (playing a Barbarian/Dervish thingy). TLN won within the first two(?) rounds, when DM Grinder had gone first. NullAshton gave up after that.

\/ My bad, BWL. Thanks for the correction.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-17, 03:13 PM
This was tried a while ago...The Logic Ninja (playing the wizard) vs. DM Grinder (playing a Barbarian/Dervish thingy). TLN won within the first two(?) rounds, when DM Grinder had gone first. DM Grinder gave up after that.
Ohh? When and where was this. I would like to see it.

crazedloon
2007-03-17, 03:15 PM
NOTE I WAN'T THIS TO BE VS A LVL 20 WIZ

Because adding prestige to the wiz makes it to much brain power for the people making the other character also adding prestige classes will obviosly make it easier for the Wiz to counter the other characters tactics.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-17, 03:17 PM
I'd try it the other way around...

Post a wizard build, and I'll try to come up with a non-caster who could beat it.

The other way around, the wizard will win every time. No contest.

A wizard built to kill a specific opponent will always succeed. With several rounds left over to conjure up a feast and dancing girls before the end of the first round.

The only argument I was making in the other thread was that a wizard can't be built so perfectly that no possible same-level non-caster would ever have a chance against him.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-17, 03:19 PM
Hi crazedloon,

I tried something similar here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36333

And it is only core rules! The discussion is on its 13th page, but cooling off somewhat by now.
The point is, an assured non-caster win vs a spellcaster running around with long-term buffs is quite a challenge...

...would love to join in this challenge, but outside core, I do not dare to venture...too many possibilities, but definitely way more for casters than for non-casters.

- Giacomo

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-17, 03:24 PM
NOTE I WAN'T THIS TO BE VS A LVL 20 WIZ

Because adding prestige to the wiz makes it to much brain power for the people making the other character also adding prestige classes will obviosly make it easier for the Wiz to counter the other characters tactics.
So do you mean no PrC's at all, or only for the Wizard?

And do you have any rules on Character creation yet?

And who's making the wizard(I say you should ask BWL, but thats just me.)

crazedloon
2007-03-17, 03:45 PM
So do you mean no PrC's at all, or only for the Wizard?

And do you have any rules on Character creation yet?

And who's making the wizard(I say you should ask BWL, but thatís just me.)

For the Wizard I donít want to any PrC just a strait 20th level wizard. However for the non caster all PrCs in a WoTC books are available (however donít choose the most random one as it will make it a pain for someone to build against something they do not know.)

Hmm I did forget to add stats Iím thinking 32 point would be best for this style of challenge.

The Wizard will be made by anyone who wishes to make one but they will have to be able to beat a particular build. In this manner future builds can be augmented by what is learned in a previous "encounter." This way we may be able to build through trial and error a build that is good against the wizard. (or at least we will enjoy trying :smallwink: )

Sir Giacomo I actually read most of your thread before I sort of stopped because the arguments began to become circular.

If you want to have a core challenge or even limit the books feel to do so. You may declare when you submit your character what books a caster can get stuff from (As long as you also abide by that rule)

If you wish also I have no problem with you posting a Wizard and having people post a non caster to beat it. But I would prefer to keep it to the original Idea.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-17, 03:46 PM
This was tried a while ago...The Logic Ninja (playing the wizard) vs. DM Grinder (playing a Barbarian/Dervish thingy). TLN won within the first two(?) rounds, when DM Grinder had gone first. DM Grinder gave up after that.

It was versus NullAshton, and his dervish was absolutely horribly built: he didn't even have any way of flying or any ranged weapons.
Not that those would've helped much.


Crazed, did I miss your becoming a moderator? Because that'd be the only justification for telling people what not to post in red text.

This is a crappy idea. Every book & etc. makes this a cheesefest. Custom item rules? Yay, how easily abuseable. Candles of Invocation? Woo-hoo.

crazedloon
2007-03-17, 04:00 PM
snip*

Ok first no I have not become a moderator nor am I pretending to be one I can not actually stop anyone from posting however I would like to keep the posts on topic. I happen to post in red because it is most obvious to the eye (in my opinion) when you are scanning a page. If a mod has a problem I’ll change it to some other color or even get rid of it all they need to do is ask.

As far as cheesefest it is possible I did add the limitation to books if a submitter would like to have the books restricted. Also the item rules (I may need to add as seen in DMG if that is where you seam to be getting the ease of abuse) goes both ways it allows a non-magic user a little ability to counter the magic of the Wiz.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-17, 04:20 PM
The item rules as seen in the DMG are abuseable. (Add alignment and class restrictions to drop price by 30% and then another 10%, for example; continuous Wraithstrike; et cetera.)

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 04:45 PM
Heck, just build a suit of armor that auto-casts Mage's Disjunction on any spellcaster in the vicinity the moment he tries to cast a spell. I call it the "Suit of No, Shut up!".

Darion
2007-03-17, 04:57 PM
Define "non-spellcaster." A fully tooled ecl20 psion has many (but certainly not all) of the tricks of a level 20 wizard. Several class have incidental minor spellcasting, does this prevent them from being a valid option?

crazedloon
2007-03-17, 07:02 PM
Define "non-spellcaster." A fully tooled ecl20 psion has many (but certainly not all) of the tricks of a level 20 wizard. Several class have incidental minor spellcasting, does this prevent them from being a valid option?

Ok Psions are out and I think alowing half spell/psionic casting as legal classes to.

Roland St. Jude
2007-03-17, 07:09 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: If you start a thread with "I probably should not do this..." odds are you are correct. Also, if you end it with an invitation to close it, I'm likely to take you up on it. Atmospherics aside, this "challenge" could easily have been offered in the existing "wizards win D&D"-type thread. This thread is duplicative and will, therefore, be locked. In addition, while anyone is free to open a thread (within the rules) moderating what happens in it is the moderators' job, please don't boss other people around or attempt to regulate what they post. (Using red text when doing so is even more unacceptable as it implies moderator authority.)

Per the rules, do not restart this thread. Thank you.