Do you recommend wizard, druid, bard, or something else for versatility?

[saintstardust]

My D&D group doesn't really have regular attendance so, at any given session, we might have a fighter (level 4), a rogue (level 3), a warlock (level 3), and/or a cleric (level 1). However, our house rule for low level characters allows them to quickly catch up with the party.

I'm making a new character since my last one died (a Valor bard focusing on grappling) and I'm trying to pick a class. I'll be able to get to level 3 without much hassle. I'd like to be able to handle a bit of each character's role since, without regular attendance, we could easily become unbalanced. In this regard, I think bard seems to provide the most versatility.

I'm looking for a character that will eventually be able to handle some or all of these roles around level 3: tank, damage, controller, skill monkey, healer. I understand that a strong controller could mitigate a lot of the need for a tank or healer, which would be great too. Summoning seems like it might be a big help and seems to come online at level 5 (level 6 for a lore bard). I'm also very interested in some of the higher level wizard spells (clone, wish, simulacrum) but I don't know if I would dedicate a magical secret to them (bard) or if I'd be alright completely avoiding them (druid).

Which class (and specialization) would you recommend for me and why? Thanks!

[Ralanr]

I don't have the info in my head at the exact moment. But I'd recommend druid. They're usually incredibly versatile. I'm sure someone else can give a better idea however.

[Yorrin]

So going through the list of roles you want to fulfill I'd posit the following, in general, as good classes to fill that role:

tank: Barbarian Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Paladin
damage: Anything but Valor Bard
controller: Bard, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard
skill monkey: Bard, some versions of Cleric, Rogue, some Warlock builds
healer: Bard, Cleric, Druid

So Bard, Cleric, and Druid seem to emerge as winners overall. Bard is probably the best controller of the group as well as the best skill monkey, and Moon Druid is a candidate for best tank in the game. Cleric can out-heal the other two if he goes Life Domain, which is also probably the most "well-rounded" of the various options, or can go decent skill-monkey with a Knowledge Domain build.

[Uldric]

I'd go with Moon Druid or either Bard College. The Moon Druid will be a better tank than the Bard (and the Fighter for that matter), but The Bard is a much better skill monkey especially if you need to be the party Face. I'd start with what kind of character you want to play before worrying about mechanics, but that just might be me.

[Madfellow]

Valor Bard is my recommendation. Damage output is really the only area where it suffers, but that can be mitigated with a Fighter dip for Action Surge.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Is there a particular reason the Valor bard is worse than the Lore bard for damage? Or are some of you saying that the bard generally has worse damage? The latter I can believe, but the former seems off.

Mr Valor Bard does get to hand out +d6 damage to the party (CHA mod times per long rest, so 1 to 3 times a day early on), which becomes +d8 and recharges on short rest at lvl 5. Plus Longbow/heavy crossbow proficiency, and an extra attack at lvl 6. At lvl 10 he gets Swift Quiver and can really give the business.

[Madfellow]

Is there a particular reason the Valor bard is worse than the Lore bard for damage? Or are some of you saying that the bard generally has worse damage? The latter I can believe, but the former seems off.

Mr Valor Bard does get to hand out +d6 damage to the party (CHA mod times per long rest, so 1 to 3 times a day early on), which becomes +d8 and recharges on short rest at lvl 5. Plus Longbow/heavy crossbow proficiency, and an extra attack at lvl 6. At lvl 10 he gets Swift Quiver and can really give the business.

It's just the bard in general, not specifically the Valor Bard. The class was not designed with high damage output in mind (not that it needs to be; it has basically everything else). And as you point out, it's not THAT far behind in terms of damage. A fighter dip can give it a good bump, but I wouldn't call it necessary.

[saintstardust]

I'm really surprised that wizard hasn't really been considered yet and that makes me concerned that they're not a competitive choice in this edition.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I'm really surprised that wizard hasn't really been considered yet and that makes me concerned that they're not a competitive choice in this edition.

Well three of the possible roles you listed, tank, skill monkey and healer, don't play to a Wizard's strengths. You could have a skilled wizard with a lot of utility spells and the right race/background combo. Some schools can help with tanking, such as abjuration, conjuration or necromancy. None of them can heal.

[Yorrin]

I'm really surprised that wizard hasn't really been considered yet and that makes me concerned that they're not a competitive choice in this edition.

It's not that they're not a competitive class overall, but they are no longer a terribly versatile class. They can be a controller and/or a damage dealer, but no moreso than a Bard can be a controller or just about any other class can deal damage.

[saintstardust]

It's not that they're not a competitive class overall, but they are no longer a terribly versatile class. They can be a controller and/or a damage dealer, but no moreso than a Bard can be a controller or just about any other class can deal damage.

Ah, I think I'm beginning to grasp what you mean. Could the spells available to the wizard make him/her good enough at a missing role (minus healer) without resorting to tying down the spell selection like with a bard?


At level 5, would animate dead be a substitute for a tank per encounter? (at the same level, a druid gets conjure animals and wild shape while a lore bard can take either spell at level 6)
At level 3, would charm person, invisibility, knock, and disguise self be a substitute for a face/skill monkey per encounter? (while a bard, I guess, is already good at all of those things)
And... that's it I guess? :smallfrown:

[Madfellow]

Ah, I think I'm beginning to grasp what you mean. Could the spells available to the wizard make him/her good enough at a missing role (minus healer) without resorting to tying down the spell selection like with a bard?


At level 5, would animate dead be a substitute for a tank per encounter? (at the same level, a druid gets conjure animals and wild shape while a lore bard can take either spell at level 6)
At level 3, would charm person, invisibility, knock, and disguise self be a substitute for a face/skill monkey per encounter? (while a bard, I guess, is already good at all of those things)
And... that's it I guess? :smallfrown:


Spells can help, yes, but in the end you're expending daily resources in order to accomplish something that a given non-caster can accomplish all the time. Granted, that's what the wizard is made for. Certain wizard builds can tank (being a dwarf I think would help), but as usual being a good wizard relies on being prepared.

[saintstardust]

Spells can help, yes, but in the end you're expending daily resources in order to accomplish something that a given non-caster can accomplish all the time. Granted, that's what the wizard is made for. Certain wizard builds can tank (being a dwarf I think would help), but as usual being a good wizard relies on being prepared.

True, it is a big investment and highly dependent on the DM as well. With that uncertainty, then, bard and druid seem to be much stronger choices. I know you recommended valor bard... did you have any thoughts on some strong points to consider?

[Geoff]

I'm really surprised that wizard hasn't really been considered yet and that makes me concerned that they're not a competitive choice in this edition.Don't worry about it too much. It's for a still relatively low level campaign.

And, with that in mind, I'd vote Druid. Not because it's necessarily strictly the best choice power-wise for what the OP is doing, but because it can step fully into the alternate role for a whole session or day based on the choices you make. If the Fighter's missing, stay in melee forms most of the time. If it's the rogue, choose stealthy forms. If the Cleric's out, stay humanoid and use lots of healing, if the Warlock, cast offensive spells, instead. It's not that the Druid covers any of those roles better, it's that it can cover any one of them while still leaving the others to their respective specialists.

[Madfellow]

True, it is a big investment and highly dependent on the DM as well. With that uncertainty, then, bard and druid seem to be much stronger choices. I know you recommended valor bard... did you have any thoughts on some strong points to consider?

Well like I said, Fighter 2/Bard X will get you all weapon and armor proficiencies, good Con saves (vital for a caster), a Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge, Spell Casting (goes great with Action Surge), and Expertise. Once you hit level 5, your choice of College could really go either way. Lore Bard will get you more skills and spells, Valor Bard will get you an extra attack. You'll probably want to pick up the Warcaster feat at level 6.

[Ashrym]

Ah, I think I'm beginning to grasp what you mean. Could the spells available to the wizard make him/her good enough at a missing role (minus healer) without resorting to tying down the spell selection like with a bard?


At level 5, would animate dead be a substitute for a tank per encounter? (at the same level, a druid gets conjure animals and wild shape while a lore bard can take either spell at level 6)
At level 3, would charm person, invisibility, knock, and disguise self be a substitute for a face/skill monkey per encounter? (while a bard, I guess, is already good at all of those things)
And... that's it I guess? :smallfrown:


I would go with a druid or a bard. Wizard versatility is not what it once was. They do mediocre damage (although better options than bards and druids) and spells like charm person, invisibility. and disguise self are of limited use without the skill bonuses and/or ability modifiers to back them up. Knock is junk; it's almost pointless to ever take unless the group is in a hurry and doesn't care about keeping quiet and there isn't someone who can open a lock just as quickly, or the group is bypassing arcane lock. It's easy to use thieves' tools for locks outside of combat. You can give the wizard healing if the wizard takes the healer feat and he can hand out healing potions for additional versatility.

A bard would make better use of those spells (because they are guaranteed bonuses wizards are not) and can add polymorph at 7th level to simulate wild shape, and a druid doesn't need to use polymorph because he or she already has wild shape, and can have more spells prepared than a bard knows, and can swap them during a rest as applicable.

Where wizards really excel in versatility is in the better ritual casting, and later on with spell mastery. Spell mastery is very solid with the wizard spell selection for additional at-will ability.

I disagree with "anything but a valor bard" for damage above. The extra attack give them better damage options than most spell casters sustain with cantrips, and they have some damage spells they can take or add via magical secrets or from within the class as well. They are not high end with damage, but with feats and their own magical support they are not that bad. Valor bards are how we get up to 10d12 bonus damage from combat inspiration while critting a held monster (held by the bard), and they can eventually learn meteor swarm too.

Other options for versatility are tome warlocks, arcane tricksters, and rangers (particularly beast masters because of the help action as a bonus action). I would still go with druids or bards for the stronger spell lists that include better healing, and prefer bards for the skill bonuses.

In your group a bard has the spells to give the rogue an opportunity attack and the fighter can go battle master for commander's strike and then both of you can leverage extra sneak attacks. If attendance is poor and you need to cover better then lore bard would be good to open up magical secrets sooner and you have the skill bonuses to cover a missing rogue. Direct damage will be low but that won't matter with the spell selection to support the party damage and you can have an AoE damage spell or two. What you are looking for are spells that allow critical damage and open up opportunity attacks, and mitigate attack penalties from feats like sharpshooter or great weapon master.