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Rakeesh
2007-03-22, 10:47 PM
The question that spurred me to make this thread is actually pretty specific, but it can serve for broader questions too.

I'm trying to figure out just what the market prices are for a magic ring or wondrous item enchanted to cast L1 spells, such as Comprehend Languages, Cure Minor Wounds (even if I can afford that one, I might not take it...bit cheesy), Alarm, that sort of thing. But not a gamebreaker like Truestriking.

I believe I understand the prices just by comparing to other L1 spells, but I'm still uncertain. Could someone help me?

Mewtarthio
2007-03-22, 10:49 PM
Merry Christmas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm). Scroll down to the table "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" (the second table).

Rakeesh
2007-04-13, 11:35 AM
Could someone more learned in the ways of item creation tell me if I've got this correct? It's the juxtaposition of a +2 bonus, and a spell on command, that gets me confused...

+2 Mithral Breastplate of Mists

350 for MW Breastplate
4000gp for Mithral material

+4000gp for the +2 bonus
+4000gp for Obscuring Mist on command

Complete stats: +7 Armor bonus, max dex. bonus 5, armor check penalty 0, spell failure 15%, speed 30', weight 15lbs.

12350gp total price

Starbuck_II
2007-04-13, 11:49 AM
Could someone more learned in the ways of item creation tell me if I've got this correct? It's the juxtaposition of a +2 bonus, and a spell on command, that gets me confused...

+2 Mithral Breastplate of Mists

350 for MW Breastplate
4000gp for Mithral material

+4000gp for the +2 bonus
+4000gp for Obscuring Mist on command

Complete stats: +7 Armor bonus, max dex. bonus 5, armor check penalty 0, spell failure 15%, speed 30', weight 15lbs.

12350gp total price

By on command do you also mean at will (unlimited times/day)?

h2doh
2007-04-13, 11:50 AM
it looks reasonable but remember that the DM as final say in the matter. this is to prevent cheezy combinations. for instance, looking at that armor the dm may change it to times/day for the same price.

Rakeesh
2007-04-13, 11:51 AM
Actually, I was basing it off the Mithralmist Shirt, which is close to what I was aiming for, but which includes Gaseous Form 10rds/day, as well as Mist 7/day, for a cost roughly 10000gp higher.

Obviously this is all pending DM approval, I just want to make sure I've got the mechanics correct before I go to her.

Edit: Also, I'm not sure what the rules are for governing how many times/day a Command activated item may be used in terms of pricing.

Kyace
2007-04-13, 12:05 PM
Generally, uses per day is both a balancing feature and lowers the price. It seems that command word seems balanced toward 5 uses per day, since the price for x users per day is to divide it (5/x). [IE, divide by 1 for 5 uses per day]. For 7 uses per day, this seems to multiply the cost by 1.4 times. I'm not sure if the wonderous item rules apply to adding spells to armor, but I guess thats as good as the rules will provide.

Da Beast
2007-04-13, 12:08 PM
A small observation, you don't need to pay the cost for masterwork on the breastplate. Mythril armor automaticaly counts as masterwork.

Rakeesh
2007-04-13, 12:13 PM
Ahh, OK. I guess that would up the armor check penalty by one too then, since I stacked those as well as the price. Thanks.

Tellah
2007-04-13, 12:30 PM
Edit: Also, I'm not sure what the rules are for governing how many times/day a Command activated item may be used in terms of pricing.

Divide by (5 divided by charges per day). It's right there in the link in Mewtarthio's post.

Rakeesh
2007-04-13, 12:40 PM
Yikes! Thanks Tellah...shows what I know. I didn't go down that far, heh.

Tellah
2007-04-13, 12:55 PM
Sure thing! I use that particular rule quite a bit, as I usually make items with 1-3 uses per day. It cuts costs, and there are very few effects that I'd want to use all day long and in every single encounter.

Rakeesh
2007-04-14, 12:01 AM
Here's a question re: resistance bonuses. The rules state that the formula is (bonus^2)(1000gp)...but it seems to take that number and apply it equally to each saving throw.

What if you want to specify it? I've got a rogue-type character with a Dex of 18, so Reflex saving throws aren't going to be a major dilemma for him. However, a Will save would be. Can anyone point me to some rules that would permit me to apply the excess bonus to just one or two saving throws for the same price, or any rules on this whatsoever?

Jasdoif
2007-04-14, 12:22 AM
Here's a question re: resistance bonuses. The rules state that the formula is (bonus^2)(1000gp)...but it seems to take that number and apply it equally to each saving throw.

What if you want to specify it? I've got a rogue-type character with a Dex of 18, so Reflex saving throws aren't going to be a major dilemma for him. However, a Will save would be. Can anyone point me to some rules that would permit me to apply the excess bonus to just one or two saving throws for the same price, or any rules on this whatsoever?The psionic crystal mask of mindarmor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#crystalMaskofMindarmor) grants a +4 insight bonus on Will saves, and costs 10,667gp. A magic item that provides a +4 bonus (of a type other then resistance) to all saves costs 32,000gp by the guidelines.

Since the crystal mask is one third of a gold piece away from being exactly one third the price of the +4 bonus item, and since psionic items use the same guidelines as magic items, it appears to me that a bonus on one save costs one third as much as a bonus to all saves.

Gralamin
2007-04-14, 12:28 AM
Here's a question re: resistance bonuses. The rules state that the formula is (bonus^2)(1000gp)...but it seems to take that number and apply it equally to each saving throw.

What if you want to specify it? I've got a rogue-type character with a Dex of 18, so Reflex saving throws aren't going to be a major dilemma for him. However, a Will save would be. Can anyone point me to some rules that would permit me to apply the excess bonus to just one or two saving throws for the same price, or any rules on this whatsoever?

Simply, items are based on spells, such as this one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistance.htm). Notice its level 0, so you are unlikely to find anything that would help the individual saves.

Funny thing about times/day:
Since times per day is given by (Price / 5/x) where x is the uses/day, it can become more expensive then the constant cost after 5 ( 5/10 is 1/2 which is the same as doubling the price)

Kyace
2007-04-14, 12:41 AM
I think I'm reading way too much into this but if you take this line super-rules-lawyer-from-heck-literially, then
Multiple Similar Abilities

For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities.
Might mean that the cost for a for a Cloak of Resistance +5 should be equal to the price of a Cloak of 100% (Will save +5) + 75% (Reflex save +5) + 50% (Fort save +5). Thus, the cloak of resistance +x costs 225% times the price of a cloak of willpower +x. Then if a cloak of resistance +x costs (x^2 * 1000 gp) a cloak of will +x might cost (x^2 * 445 gp).

Hopefully someone with a better understanding of RAW can prove/disprove this, but thats about the only thing I could come away with.

Edit: Or just go with Jasdoif's idea, which seems to fit the Multiple Different Abilities rules. I had a fifty fifty chance of picking the right rule. :P

Rigeld2
2007-04-14, 12:45 AM
No, because the listed save bonus (resistance) automatically adds to all three resistances. Its not multiple similar abilities, its one single one.

Jasdoif
2007-04-14, 01:08 AM
Looks like I missed this one earlier....
+2 Mithral Breastplate of Mists

350 for MW Breastplate
4000gp for Mithral material

+4000gp for the +2 bonus
+4000gp for Obscuring Mist on commandRunning by the guidelines, I see a few problems here. The first, and easiest, is that you don't have to pay for the masterwork component because that's part of mithral's price. Someone already mentioned that.

Now onto the part you'll hate. The +2 enhancement bonus means the armor has a caster level of 6. That means your obscuring mist effect has to have a caster level of 6. The guidelines suggest the cost for a command word effect to be spell level * caster level * 1800, upping the price on that effect to 10,800gp.

Third, the enhancement bonus and the spell effect are not similiar abilities, and armor does take up space on the body, so you have to pay an extra 50% on the cheaper of the two, which is the +2 bonus, so that's another 2,000gp.

So that makes your total...50+4000+10800+4000+2000 = 20,850gp.


Incidentally, the 50% increase is why I don't suggest adding abilities to weapons or armor except abilities for weapons or armor. Tracking that 50% increase is a nightmare if you ever want to upgrade them.


EDIT: Oh wait, you were thinking continuous on the mist, weren't you? That changes things...1 * 6 * 2000, *2 for making minute/level into a continuous effect, that's 24000. That increases the total to 34,050gp.

TheOOB
2007-04-14, 01:15 AM
Just keep in mind that the rules are very abusable and are just guidelines. No one wants to see items with continueous true strike running 2,000 gp.

Rakeesh
2007-04-14, 01:18 AM
Hmmmm...that does not appear to track. http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-MagicItems-WeaponsArmor.pdf (http://I got the idea for the item I'm talking about in this thread here, on page 22, second from the top)

You'll note that the price for almost an identical item is 21300 GP, and that's with an extra effect, Gaseous Form 10rds 1/day. Also, I was not thinking continuos mist effect...command use, x/times per day is what I changed it to. As for tracking that 50% increase...you can't upgrade a magical item once it's been made anyway, so far as I can understand.

TheOOB, you're right, I've discarded similarly abusive items myself before ever going to the DM about them

Jasdoif
2007-04-14, 01:32 AM
You'll note that the price for almost an identical item is 21300 GP, and that's with an extra effect, Gaseous Form 10rds 1/day.Well, the obscuring mist spell covers a 20-foot-radius and provides you with total concealment in the center, while the mithralmist shirt only grants you concealment. You asked for the pricing on an obscuring mist effect, so that's what I calculated. And as mentioned, the guidelines are guidelines, not hard and fast rules. Sometimes they underprice items, others they overprice. That's why the DM has to approve custom items.


As for tracking that 50% increase...you can't upgrade a magical item once it's been made anyway, so far as I can understand.You can. You basically pay the price difference between the original item and the item with the new ability added.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities
A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword.

If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a characterís body the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.

Beren One-Hand
2007-04-14, 01:36 AM
Now onto the part you'll hate. The +2 enhancement bonus means the armor has a caster level of 6. That means your obscuring mist effect has to have a caster level of 6. The guidelines suggest the cost for a command word effect to be spell level * caster level * 1800, upping the price on that effect to 10,800gp.

Why do the multiple magical effects have to have the same caster level?


CREATING MAGIC ITEMS
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an itemís creation.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the itemís creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.


Caster Level for Armor and Shields:
The caster level of a magic shield or magic armor with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

This just means the creator has to have a high enough caster level to cover all components. The only item that has to have all spells the same caster level are staffs.

Jasdoif
2007-04-14, 01:42 AM
Why do the multiple magical effects have to have the same caster level?Because a magic item only has one caster level, and the only part in the guidelines that mentions the subject of varying caster levels either way is the one for staffs, which says they all have the same caster level.

Devils_Advocate
2007-04-14, 01:37 PM
Simply, items are based on spells, such as this one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistance.htm). Notice its level 0, so you are unlikely to find anything that would help the individual saves.
Simply, creating an item requires a spell that vaguely sorta does kinda the same thing as the item does. Many, many magic items do not do exactly the same things as the spells required to create them. A Helm of Underwater Action, for example, improved the wearer's vision, which the Water Breathing spell does not.

I picked that example, by the way, by scanning down the list of Wondrous Items (starting with the helms, which I was looking at for another thread), looking for the first item that would illustrate what I was talking about. It wasn't at all hard to find a relevant example, as I knew it would't be before I even started looking.

Now, you could say "a resistance bonus, by its very nature, always applies to all saving throws", but that's a different argument, and further, I don't think that's spelled out anywhere in the rules. It might be a reasonable ruling, but that doesn't mean that the opposite ruling isn't also reasonable.


The psionic crystal mask of mindarmor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#crystalMaskofMindarmor) grants a +4 insight bonus on Will saves, and costs 10,667gp. A magic item that provides a +4 bonus (of a type other then resistance) to all saves costs 32,000gp by the guidelines.

Since the crystal mask is one third of a gold piece away from being exactly one third the price of the +4 bonus item, and since psionic items use the same guidelines as magic items, it appears to me that a bonus on one save costs one third as much as a bonus to all saves.
That's consistant with how the Belt of Magnificence from the Miniatures Handbook is priced, I think. About six times the normal price for a stat boosting item for a bonus to all six stats, with "If this didn't exist, I'd only buy some of the individual items whose abilities it replicates" being balanced by "Hey, it only takes up one body slot!" (The same logic applies here in reverse.)