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View Full Version : What If . . . (AoOs and 5'-Steps)



nonsi
2014-11-14, 04:57 AM
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I was wondering, what if 5'-steps were swift actions and AoOs were immediate actions?
Who would that affect gameplay?

sajro
2014-11-14, 07:16 AM
My question is:
What is AoOs actually at the moment?

And otherwise I dont think it would change that much, except if that is the only limitation the actions have.

Because if they have only this limitation, then you can move an extra 5 feet every round, otherwise you have something else to do. And for AoOs it would meen you would never have more than one, as you only have one immediate action per turn.

Extra Anchovies
2014-11-14, 07:21 AM
Taking AoOs would mean giving up your swift action, which means a lot to some builds, especially ToB classes and their plethora of swift-action boosts (not to mention Battle Blessing Paladins).

Amnoriath
2014-11-14, 11:14 AM
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I was wondering, what if 5'-steps were swift actions and AoOs were immediate actions?
Who would that affect gameplay?

It would mean that someone couldn't make a 5 foot step and an AoO in the same round as swifts and immediates represent the same "effort" just different times when used. Effectively, spell casters have 5 feet of base extra movement and you eliminated a key lockdown feature for melee.

nonsi
2014-11-14, 06:30 PM
It would mean that someone couldn't make a 5 foot step and an AoO in the same round as swifts and immediates represent just different times when used. Effectively, spell casters have 5 feet of base extra movement and you eliminated a key lockdown feature for melee.

Ok then, what if swift actions and immediate actions are no longer the same "effort" and don't come at the expense of one another?
How does that mesh with 5'-step being a swift action and an AoOs being an immediate actions?

Ziegander
2014-11-14, 06:59 PM
Combat Reflexes just died in a fire as did every build that relied on it. And casters will be able to spend their swift action to avoid all non-reach attacks of opportunity except when delivered with the Thicket of Blades stance.

nonsi
2014-11-14, 07:46 PM
Combat Reflexes just died in a fire as did every build that relied on it.


I'd prefer postponing worries about that one for later on.




And casters will be able to spend their swift action to avoid all non-reach attacks of opportunity except when delivered with the Thicket of Blades stance.


Can't they do that already? (take 5'-step; cast a spell)

Sgt. Cookie
2014-11-14, 09:05 PM
Combat Reflexes

Whenever you use your Immediate action to make an attack of opportunity, you may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus. Effectively, this allows you to have multiple "Immediate Actions" that can only be used to make AoOs.

With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Normal:

A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and canít make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.


Problem solved.

That said, I can't see this changing much.

Kamai
2014-11-14, 11:46 PM
Combat Reflexes just died in a fire as did every build that relied on it. And casters will be able to spend their swift action to avoid all non-reach attacks of opportunity except when delivered with the Thicket of Blades stance.

And lose their quickened spell? It might actually make the 5ft step a little annoying, though not much, mind you.

nonsi
2014-11-15, 01:38 AM
Combat Reflexes

Whenever you use your Immediate action to make an attack of opportunity, you may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus. Effectively, this allows you to have multiple "Immediate Actions" that can only be used to make AoOs.

With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Normal:

A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and canít make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.


Problem solved.



Well, yes. That's the spirit of things I'm aiming at - letting you squeeze more out of your immediate action.
But I'm aiming for a less AoO-oriented game. I never liked the fact that 3e allows you to make way more out-of-turn attacks than in-turn attacks - even though the latter are situational.
The general agenda is to modify Combat Reflexes as follows:

Combat Reflexes
Requirements: base Ref +2
Benefits: Allows you to take immediate actions while flatfooted, but you must be aware of your opponent and technically able to react (e.g. a humanoid usually cannot react while climbing through a narrow passage).
BAB +6 and Dex 15 allow you to strain yourself and attempt an additional AoO at the expense of a move action in your next combat turn.
BAB +11 and Dex 17 allow you to strain yourself and attempt a 3rd AoO at the expense of a standard action in your next combat turn.
Lastly, with BAB +16 and Dex 19, you can now attempt a 4th AoO by forfeiting your next turn altogether.

The idea is that with combat experience, you get to exploite more from your reactions, but it comes with a cost.
The alternative is there, but it never allows you to get more out-of-turn actions than you can get in-turn and it costs you.




That said, I can't see this changing much.


The aim is to make more sense in combat actions.
Combat actions are:
- Standard
- Move
- Swift
- Immediate
(with the option of combining standard & move into a full-round action)

Per RAW, 5'-step & AoO don't fit anywhere in the above (kinda like that extra rock that fell on wile-e-coyote out of nowhere).

Suppose you're a spellcaster that has a magical item that can be activated as a swift action (there are a few of those). This allows you to cast a spell, retrieve your item, take a 5'-step (that magical nonaction action) and activate your item as a swift action (I hit you with 2 spells and you don't even get to react).
Or: you cast a spell, 5'-step into the next room (that magical nonaction action), close the door (a move action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)) and turn the key as an immediate action (I hit you with a spell and you're never gonna catch me).
The above are applicable starting at 1st level.
Or: you make an AoO agains an opponnent and cast Stay the Hand on that opponent as a reaction (I hit you in the face and you're OK with it).


I believe that if the game designers had swift action figured out before publishing 3e, they would've made 5'-step a swift action.
Same goes for AoOs as immediate actions.

That's the way I wish it to be. I just want to make sure to make these changes in a manner that won't be more (or equally) abuasble.

Extra Anchovies
2014-11-15, 02:28 AM
I'd like to point out that this slams martials while only moderately inconveniencing casters. That is not a good thing for the game.

By RAW making three AoOs with the new combat reflexes already forces you to give up your turn; you may want to say that the sacrificed standard action replaces and does not stack with the sacrificed move action.

In addition to nerfing AoO builds six ways to Sunday by making them sacrifice their next turn, it also makes them more MAD: they now need Dex of 19 to take full advantage of it, but even then it isn't worth it (because at BAB +16, you gain three AoOs at the expense of four attacks during your turn).

So this rules change is bad, very bad. Especially with the proposed Combat Reflexes. Either remove it and restrict characters to one AoO per turn, keep it in but only allow one extra AoO per 5 points of BAB or 1 point of dexterity modifier (whichever is lower), or leave Combat Reflexes untouched (i.e. "When foes leave themselves open, you may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.").

One more thing, and this is big: the new Combat Reflexes will be very arcane full-caster's sixth-level feat, because it gives a caster a guaranteed chance of fitting in a Celerity before anyone else gets a chance to act.

In general and in specific cases, this system would be very bad for martial characters and (because it's bad for martials) very good for spellcasters who aren't stupid enough to enter melee. I would never use it in a game, nor would I play in any game that used it.

nonsi
2014-11-15, 03:03 AM
I'd like to point out that this slams martials while only moderately inconveniencing casters. That is not a good thing for the game.


Ok, this is certainly not my intent.




In addition to nerfing AoO builds six ways to Sunday by making them sacrifice their next turn, it also makes them more MAD: they now need Dex of 19 to take full advantage of it, but even then it isn't worth it (because at BAB +16, you gain three AoOs at the expense of four attacks during your turn).

3 additional AoOs. No loss there




So this rules change is bad, very bad. Especially with the proposed Combat Reflexes. Either remove it and restrict characters to one AoO per turn, keep it in but only allow one extra AoO per 5 points of BAB or 1 point of dexterity modifier (whichever is lower), or leave Combat Reflexes untouched (i.e. "When foes leave themselves open, you may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.").

One more thing, and this is big: the new Combat Reflexes will be very arcane full-caster's sixth-level feat, because it gives a caster a guaranteed chance of fitting in a Celerity before anyone else gets a chance to act.


What if Combat Reflexes just gave a maximum number of AoOs equal to the number of attacks you can make as full attack, without the Dex prereq and without forfeiting actions on your turn?
Problem with this option is that it makes Combat Reflexes a must have.

(Btw, many (yours truly included) view the Celerity line of spells as unacceptable).

Extra Anchovies
2014-11-15, 03:17 AM
3 additional AoOs. No loss there

There actually is a loss. At BAB +16, if you take your one AoO plus a full attack, that's five attacks; alternately, you can make one AoO plus three more, for a total of four.

Glimbur
2014-11-15, 10:19 AM
There actually is a loss. At BAB +16, if you take your one AoO plus a full attack, that's five attacks; alternately, you can make one AoO plus three more, for a total of four.

To be fair, AoO's are always made at full BAB (and the feat doesn't seem to change that) and iteratives are made at penalties. So it's not completely crazy to trade attacks for fewer but more accurate attacks.

Extra Anchovies
2014-11-15, 12:01 PM
To be fair, AoO's are always made at full BAB (and the feat doesn't seem to change that) and iteratives are made at penalties. So it's not completely crazy to trade attacks for fewer but more accurate attacks.

Hm. Hadn't thought about it from that angle. Essentially, this new version of Combat Reflexes lets you take your turn earlier, sorta, rather than giving additional AoOs. It's an odd way of managing it, but since you pointed that out the trade seems a bit more worthwhile.

nonsi
2014-11-15, 01:11 PM
Hm. Hadn't thought about it from that angle. Essentially, this new version of Combat Reflexes lets you take your turn earlier, sorta, rather than giving additional AoOs. It's an odd way of managing it, but since you pointed that out the trade seems a bit more worthwhile.

Ok, so with this insight in mind, and in the vein of a less AoO-centric game, is the following collection of rules (applied together, with the updated feat) now acceptable?


1. A 5'-step is a swift action.
2. An AoO is an immediate action.
3. Swift actions and immediate actions are completely separate actions - neither comes at the expense of the other, unless specifically noted or when provoking special circumstances that prevent usage.
4. Celerity spells are banned.
5. Any and all spells that carry conditions and are not tagged "Harmless" have a casting time of full-round action.

Combat Reflexes
Requirements: base Ref +2
Benefits: Allows you to take immediate actions while flatfooted, but you must be aware of your opponent and technically able to react (e.g. a humanoid usually cannot react while climbing through a narrow passage).
BAB +6 allows you to strain yourself and attempt an additional AoO at the expense of a move action in your next combat turn.
BAB +11 allows you to strain yourself and attempt a 3rd AoO. Your 2nd & 3rd AoOs come at the expense of a standard action in your next combat turn.
Lastly, with BAB +16, you can now attempt a 4th AoO by forfeiting your next turn altogether.

nonsi
2014-11-16, 08:23 AM
Ok, so with this insight in mind, and in the vein of a less AoO-centric game, is the following collection of rules (applied together, with the updated feat) now acceptable?


1. A 5'-step is a swift action.
2. An AoO is an immediate action.
3. Swift actions and immediate actions are completely separate actions - neither comes at the expense of the other, unless specifically noted or when provoking special circumstances that prevent usage.
4. Celerity spells are banned.
5. Any and all spells that carry conditions and are not tagged "Harmless" have a casting time of full-round action.

Combat Reflexes
Requirements: base Ref +2
Benefits: Allows you to take immediate actions while flatfooted, but you must be aware of your opponent and technically able to react (e.g. a humanoid usually cannot react while climbing through a narrow passage).
BAB +6 allows you to strain yourself and attempt an additional AoO at the expense of a move action in your next combat turn.
BAB +11 allows you to strain yourself and attempt a 3rd AoO. Your 2nd & 3rd AoOs come at the expense of a standard action in your next combat turn.
Lastly, with BAB +16, you can now attempt a 4th AoO by forfeiting your next turn altogether.


Eureka!!!

I believe this version of Combat Reflexes opens the door to something that people have been searching for a very long time: Ranged AoOs (or "AoOs").


Immediate Shot [Combat]
Requirements: BAB +11, Dex 15, Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw, Rapid Fire
Benefits: You can make a single attack with a bow, a tossed object or an already loaded missile device as an immediate action.
Pulling off a stunt like this is extremely difficult and is made with a -4 attack penalty and costs you your standard action during your next turn.
This is not an AoO - an opponent doesn't have to provoke for the opportunity to present itself.
Special: There's no spell, feat or any other means (nor will there ever be) that would allow multiple ranged attacks as an immediate action.

Improved Immediate Shot [Combat]
Requirements: Immediate Shot
Benefits: You no longer suffer an attack roll penalty when making an Immediate Shot.


(goes really nice with Ranged Disarm and Ranged Sunder)




Thoughts.......?

Extra Anchovies
2014-11-16, 08:42 AM
At BAB +11, you trade away three attacks at -0/-5/-10 for one at -4. Ick.

It would be more appealing if instead of costing a standard action it cost you your first attack in a full attack sequence - e.g. at BAB 11 you'd give up your -0 attack, but could still make the -5 and -10 attacks. In effect the feat would let you take your first attack early in exchange for a penalty to hit. The improved version should still be available; for an already feat-starved archer, sinking two feats should be enough to get something back without any opportunity cost other than the two feats they spent.

nonsi
2014-11-16, 11:44 AM
At BAB +11, you trade away three attacks at -0/-5/-10 for one at -4. Ick.

It would be more appealing if instead of costing a standard action it cost you your first attack in a full attack sequence - e.g. at BAB 11 you'd give up your -0 attack, but could still make the -5 and -10 attacks. In effect the feat would let you take your first attack early in exchange for a penalty to hit. The improved version should still be available; for an already feat-starved archer, sinking two feats should be enough to get something back without any opportunity cost other than the two feats they spent.

The purpose of these feats is to grant the means of handling an emergency where the means never previously existed, not to give you an option that you'd have no reason not to take every time anew.
They're supposed to be an option for cases where your enemy is about to:
- blow a trumpet that will allert the guards
- flip a lever that will rais the gate that holds a kraken at bay
- hit a button that will close the room and leave you and your party stranded/crushed to death
- swing a decisive blow against an ally
etc...

You're also not depended upon your opponents provoking AoOs


It's already a huge bonus.
I really don't want this to be the preferred option every round. This would render the need to ready an action moot, and would make these feats too good to pass up (as they are now, I wouldn't exclude them from any range build).

Kamai
2014-11-16, 02:28 PM
The purpose of these feats is to grant the means of handling an emergency where the means never previously existed, not to give you an option that you'd have no reason not to take every time anew.
They're supposed to be an option for cases where your enemy is about to:
- blow a trumpet that will allert the guards
- flip a lever that will rais the gate that holds a kraken at bay
- hit a button that will close the room and leave you and your party stranded/crushed to death
- swing a decisive blow against an ally
etc...

You're also not depended upon your opponents provoking AoOs


It's already a huge bonus.
I really don't want this to be the preferred option every round. This would render the need to ready an action moot, and would make these feats too good to pass up (as they are now, I wouldn't exclude them from any range build).


Remember that outside of Fighter, you don't really get a lot of feats to play with in 3.PF. At least the way I see it, either a feat needs to always be useful, or if it's only useful in a niche, it needs to be amazing in that niche. It's an 11th level feat that requires 4 feats, 1 of which is completely useless to an archer, and one that is a decent niche feat. You shouldn't be afraid to make this powerful. If you want it like this, I'd move it down to BAB +6 and Rapid Fire, at the very least.

nonsi
2014-11-17, 03:08 PM
Remember that outside of Fighter, you don't really get a lot of feats to play with in 3.PF. At least the way I see it, either a feat needs to always be useful, or if it's only useful in a niche, it needs to be amazing in that niche.


I believe it's actually both.





It's an 11th level feat that requires 4 feats, 1 of which is completely useless to an archer, and one that is a decent niche feat. You shouldn't be afraid to make this powerful. If you want it like this, I'd move it down to BAB +6 and Rapid Fire, at the very least.


Idk, maybe I'm seeing something that's just not there, but from where I'm standing, these feats are awesome.
Being always ready means that any time an opponent does something you really don't like, you get a shot at foiling their action.
Add Ranged Disarm & Ranged Sunder and you maximize your options to foil just about any action an enemy takes.
- They try to eat/drike/throw/activate something: Disarm/Sunder
- They try to kill someone you care about or smash something you care about: Disarm
- They try to escape/chase someone or go somewhere: Trip
- They try to cast a spell: Disarm/Sunder their components/focus.
And you get to use it when it suits your needs - and you get to act first, because it's an immediate action.
Yes, it's a feat-intensive build, but if you've got it, then you're most probably a mid-high level fighter, meaning you have a decent chance of pulling off yout foils.
That's an amazing battlefield control.
Seems to me like the possibilities are almost endless.