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Guinea Anubis
2007-03-23, 11:24 AM
So I normally play a spell caster, but for the new game my friend is starting I made up my mind that I was going to play something new a ROGUE. Now that I am working on this new PC I find the I really don't know that much about how to make a good rogue.

I have my race down to Halfling or Gnome. The DM is letting us start at level 5 with max hit points and 36 point to use with the point buy system and the amount of gold listed for level 5.

So please help me make this rogue as I feel like a noob again after to many years of playing to many casters.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-23, 11:26 AM
Prioritize DEX, INT, and CON; CHA if you want to be social, WIS for will saves and the like, and your STR can suck.

What kind of a rogue do you want to be? More melee-focused? Social? Just generic, covering the trapfinding-and-talking-to-people basics?

ravenkith
2007-03-23, 11:31 AM
You also kind of need to let us know which books you have access to, because that really affects what advice we might give.

Personally, I prefer a melee rogue type. It's much easier to get your sneak dice on something if all you have to do is move to flank.

Pocket lint
2007-03-23, 11:34 AM
* Focus on Con, Dex and Wis, in that order. Dex is mostly for the skills, but Con is VITAL as a rogue. Those D6'ers don't last nearly as long as you'd wish in combat.
* Your group role is trap-detector on legs. Always max Spot, Listen, Search, Open Lock and Disable Device.
* For combat, if you want to go melee, the trick is flanking and sneak attacking. Max out Tumble to get to those flanking positions, and/or go with Mobility. Generally speaking, Weapon Finesse is the way to go for a rogue - who needs Str anyway...
* UMD is your friend if you want to make use of those nice wands. And you do.

Skyserpent
2007-03-23, 11:35 AM
If you're going to be a melee rogue, you'll need a Fighter or some other Melee'r to get in there with you. There's no I in flanking...

wait...

kamikasei
2007-03-23, 11:42 AM
a) What books?
b) What do you know about other characters?


There's no I in flanking...

Try "there's no I in 'to flank'". :smallwink:

Guinea Anubis
2007-03-23, 11:45 AM
We can only use the PHB and the DMG.

I was hoping to be a jack of all trades. I was hoping that I could be good a combat, but still be good at sneaking around picking pockets and talking my way out of stuff. So I guess just generic.

ravenkith
2007-03-23, 11:49 AM
Ugh. Core only rogue = bad.

Simply not enough rogue-friendly feats in the PHB.

What do you think, guys, TWFer? Arcane Trickster?

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-23, 11:54 AM
TWF is generally the way to go with a core rogue. Assassin is also an option, for the spells rather than for the lametastic Death Attack.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-23, 11:58 AM
I always prioritize intelligence. Yes, intelligence. The rogue's single greatest asset is their skillpoints, right? So I get their intelligence skyward so that I can become Uber Monkey, Lord of All Skills. Also, be a human and get Able Learner to really make this stupid-useful. Then, become a scout and take the Complete Scoundrel feat that lets rogue and scout levels stack when determining your sneak attack and skirmish damage, then stick with the scout levels. You'll have access to nearly every skill in the game at a cost of 1, have so many skill points that it will boggle the mind, do decent damage when you get caught in melee, and get several nifty mobile abilities from the scout class- at the cost of your trap sense, which is pitiful anyway compared to how high you can pump Search.

Feat-wise, besides the rogue/scout feat I mentioned (I forget the name, sadly) and Able Learner, go on the TWF tree- but only far enough to reach the pre-reqs for Dual Strike, then stop. Get Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack as well. Finally, since your dexterity should be your second priority stat, pick up weapon finesse (or get that one first. Either way). Dual-wield shortswords. Now, you can hide in plain sight, ambush some mofo's from behind with a spring attack, do sneak attack AND skirmish damage twice, then hop backwards and hide again.

Plus, your crazy skillage will let you pretty much defeat any situation that requires a skill check. You can be the "face" of the party as well as the trickster, the dungeon mechanic, the crafter (if you really want it, I wouldn't), the ambusher, and the warning alarm. You're effectively filling several roles at once without having to worry about spells per day!

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-23, 12:00 PM
Um, Dual Strike is a terrible feat. You know you don't get sneak attack &etc. on the second attack? And that it doesn't work with Spring Attack (which is also a terrible feat)?

EndgamerAzari
2007-03-23, 12:01 PM
I'm currently playing a rogue with a level of Master Thrower, which is an awesome build. Sneaky shot+sneak attack= sneak attack damage every round!

kamikasei
2007-03-23, 12:02 PM
I was hoping to be a jack of all trades. I was hoping that I could be good a combat, but still be good at sneaking around picking pockets and talking my way out of stuff. So I guess just generic.

Being a jack of all trades is not a good idea, but being a competent combatant and skillful character is what the rogue does. With 36-point buy you can get max Dex, plus a high Int and okay Con, with no penalties; better, if you dump-stat Str. With 12 skills from a human with 16 in Int, you can cover Disable Device and Open Lock for dungeon utility, Sleight of Hand for picking pockets, Bluff and Sense Motive for social situations, and so on. You should, however, take note of what the other players are doing and whether any of their characters will be significantly better than you at some of these things. A sorcerer could well be a better face for the party, for example. In that case, focus your attention on areas the party doesn't already have covered.

The main point is that you have skills enough to spare for lots of options even where your abilities give you no bonus.

Oh, and yes, as people have said, your best bet is to go TWF and weapon finesse, striking from surprise or flanking. Take every opportunity to get your enemies flat-footed and vulnerable to sneak attack, and you can dish out tons of damage regardless of your strength score.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-23, 12:09 PM
Dual-Strike doesn't work with Sneak Attack/Skirmish? You sure? It's just letting you attack once with both wielded weapons after a move action. I thought that was legal.

I do agree that Spring Attack is typically horrible, but I'm recommending it entirely for the scout's "hide in plain sight" ability, though it's limited to natural terrain. Not being hit back is sort of important for the rogue. Though to be honest, I'm not sure if you're capable of spring attacking and re-hiding in the same round. I can't find the rules on hiding.

EDIT: Yeah, it just says the hide check usually comes at the end of a move action- which ties it in with the spring attack. So... what's so bad about a spring attack/ambush strategy?

Silvershadow
2007-03-23, 12:14 PM
* Focus on Con, Dex and Wis, in that order. Dex is mostly for the skills, but Con is VITAL as a rogue.Meh. It really depends on what kind of rogue you want to play... If you want to play the con man-type, CHA will be a lot more useful than WIS or CON, particularly if you're not planning on being in melee much.

Why on earth would you select WIS as an important stat? If you want to have higher spot/listen rolls or if you want to get a higher sense motive bonus, put more ranks in those skills. I hardly ever give my rogues a WIS higher than 12 at most (usually 10), unless I'm planning on multiclassing into a class that requires a high WIS.

Bottom line is you have to figure out what type of rogue it is you want to play. I usually give my rogues a CON of 12, and I find that it's generally enough. I tend to focus more on DEX, INT, and CHA. I'd say DEX and INT are the most important stats (for me, anyway). And if you want to play a more melee-oriented rogue, well, that's what the weapon finesse feat is for.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-03-23, 12:18 PM
***** for not saying rouge.

Pocket lint
2007-03-23, 12:18 PM
I suppose I've simply been unlucky about surviving as a rogue... but that may have more to do with a certain lack of caution :smallwink: So Con for HP and Fort save and Wis for Will saves and Spot/Listen.

In the end, what you prioritise depends on whether you want to focus on your strengths or try to cover those glaring weak spots...

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-23, 12:28 PM
Why wisdom, though? Intelligence is leagues better if you want better spot and listen checks, since by the very first level you can have already gained enough extra points via intelligence to amp those stats up above what some measily extra wisdom would do. The extra will is hardly worth it either, considering what else those points could be doing for you.

Constitution is just generally a good survival stat, but a rogue that goes into melee combat is a rogue that wants to die. The class isn't melee-oriented. If you can't kill something in 2-3 rounds, you're pretty boned anyway. So while constitution is good, it just isn't as good as some of the other stats.

I have to say much the same for charisma as I did for wisdom. Extra skillpoints beat out the bonuses charisma would give to some skills. The bonus might be kind of nice, but it's not as nice as scaling skillpoints, which is what intelligence offers you.

Strength is the final "What." stat, to me. No one seems to be mentioning it, which seems pretty good with me. Their melee strength isn't in weapon damage anyway. The best thing strength does for a rogue is carrying capacity.

Meanwhile- dexterity not only affects your best skills, it amps your AC (which you're desperately lacking) and your BAB if you take weapon finesse. This stat helps keep you alive better than even constitution.

And intelligence is just great. The extra skillpoints really matters in a class who's primary shining point is skillage. Especially since they scale with your levels, meaning that an 18 int rogue looks good at level 1, but he looks fantastic by level 20 (extra 92 skillpoints by then! Tell me, what stat beats this out for sheer awesome for a rogue?).

JellyPooga
2007-03-23, 12:29 PM
AAARrgh!!! Why, oh why, would anyone ever prioritise Con for a Rogue? (unless they were playing the 'Thug' Rogue, of course). It's even worse than giving Wizards high Con!

Rogues, Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards and associated people are NOT, I repeat NOT, well known for their beefy physique and hardy constitutions.

Yes, o.k., so they all suffer from low Hit Dice, but upping Con is not the way round it - up Dex to get a better AC, Int to get more spells per day or Cha to avoid the fight altogether, but don't, please, get round low Hit Points by getting more.

Anyway, now I've had my rant...

To the OP: Aside from the whole 'give-a-rogue-a-high-Con' thing, I'd have to agree with most of what the above have said.

High Dex is your friend - more AC and better Ranged Attacks. My advice for "Rogue-us Genericus" is stay out of melee...invest in about a dozen throwing knives (that's Daggers to you and me) and the Quick Draw, Combat Expertise and Improved Feint Feats. Skirt around the edges of combat throwing knives at spellcasters and those who look on their last legs. If you do get into melee, go max on Combat Expertise to boost your AC and feint to get an easy hit and sneak attack.

I'd say take a higher Charisma than Intelligence. If you've never played a Rogue before, you're going to find yourself with more skill points than you can deal with as it is and Charisma helps on all those Bluff checks (trust me, there's nothing Bluff can't do...).

with regards to other stats (i.e. Str, Con, Wis), you can pretty much dump-stat these. Things to bear in mind: Str - keep it at least 9 for carrying capacity (8 minimum). Con - go as low as you like, if your DM is giving you max HP, a -1 or -2 penalty is going to put you at around the same sort of HP as rolled HP and a +1 mod to Con. Wisdom...ah Wisdom...this is something you can do without. yeah, o.k. it helps on those spot and listen rolls, but whoever heard of the sensible rogue who didn't have a lust for all those shiny-shinies and occaisionally loses his head over all that beautiful, beautiful gold....mmmmmmm, gold.......[drools]

Multi-Classing and Prestige Classes - if your Core only, don't bother with any of the Prestige Classes (assuming you're not evil - if you are, Assassin may be worth it, but it depends on what concept you're looking at). Multi-Classing, a level or two of Sorcerer is something you might look into simply for a little extra punch/utility (don't knock mage armour until you have your +1 mithral shirt confiscated)...don't bother with Wizard (spellcasting for a Rogue is most useful when you don't have your kit and a Wizard without his kit is even more useless than an ice kettle). For a slightly cheesy taste, you could always take a two level dip into Fighter for HP, BAB and Feats, but I wouldn't recommend it, those level 10+ Rogue abilities are really worth having, especially Skill Mastery and Improved Evasion (take 10 on Tumble checks and only ever take half damage from area effects? yes please!)

If you can go outside of Core, I have only two words...Complete Adventurer. It's the only book you need (though Complete Warrior is also useful if you want to be more combat oriented)


Anyways, there's my words of wisdom for the budding Rogue. Hope it helps

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-23, 12:37 PM
You have a decent point on charisma's usefullness for boosting social skills, but I can't say it would out-prioritize intelligence. Consider the number of good skills a rogue has. Altogether, at a skill cap of 23, by level 20 you will need 667 skillpoints to max everything. And this is assuming you didn't try my above mentioned idea with Able Learner and scout, which would make that cap insanely bigger. A level 20 human rogue with 18 intelligence will have a total of 299 skillpoints. At best, he's covering half his skills. We take off the intelligence boost, and he's down to 207- that hurts. We take off his human race (just to point this out to anyone who wanted to mention trying a halfling for the +2 dex) and he's now down to 184. 184 out of 667. Yeah, he's not much of a skill monkey anymore.

ReluctantDragon
2007-03-23, 12:41 PM
AAARrgh!!! Why, oh why, would anyone ever prioritise Con for a Rogue? (unless they were playing the 'Thug' Rogue, of course). It's even worse than giving Wizards high Con!

Rogues, Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards and associated people are NOT, I repeat NOT, well known for their beefy physique and hardy constitutions.

Yes, o.k., so they all suffer from low Hit Dice, but upping Con is not the way round it - up Dex to get a better AC, Int to get more spells per day or Cha to avoid the fight altogether, but don't, please, get round low Hit Points by getting more.

Anyway, now I've had my rant...


Hmm.

Well, where shall I begin? If a person is playing a rogue who plans to be in melee, then yes, Con is more important than Dex. 1 more to AC is negligible compared to 1 more hitpoint per level. Also, the dex bonus to AC can be lost. Easily. Granted the same can be said of those hitpoints, but at least the hitpoints are there as a buffer zone.

So, if a rogue plans on being regularly involved in melee, then yes, I agree with previous posters and state that the importance for a rogue is Con, Dex, Int, in that order.

My 2.

JellyPooga
2007-03-23, 12:44 PM
You have a decent point on charisma's usefullness for boosting social skills, but I can't say it would out-prioritize intelligence. Consider the number of good skills a rogue has. Altogether, at a skill cap of 23, by level 20 you will need 667 skillpoints to max everything. And this is assuming you didn't try my above mentioned idea with Able Learner and scout, which would make that cap insanely bigger. A level 20 human rogue with 18 intelligence will have a total of 299 skillpoints. At best, he's covering half his skills. We take off the intelligence boost, and he's down to 207- that hurts. We take off his human race (just to point this out to anyone who wanted to mention trying a halfling for the +2 dex) and he's now down to 184. 184 out of 667. Yeah, he's not much of a skill monkey anymore.

Crunch-wise I agree with you totally...however...not every Rogue (or Scout for that matter) will want to max out every skill available to them for a start. Secondly, I very rarely play by the numbers...a rogue with a high Charisma will not need as many ranks in Bluff (for example) as one with a low Charisma (basically, when Dm-ing, I give much greater weight to stats than the rules do...the high-cha Rogue gets a lower DC equivalent for his checks when talking to others simply because he looks better than the high-Int-lots-of-ranks Rogue...but then the high-Int Rogue gets lower DC's for traps than the high-Cha rogue, even if he actually has less ranks in disarm trap...swings and roundabouts).

Logos7
2007-03-23, 01:22 PM
The Point with Charisma and to a lesser extent Wisdom with a Rogue is not that you trade skill points for the bonus ( with the emphasis then going to int) but that the Cha and Wisdom come after the skill cap, and thus are more useful.

Don't try to cover every skill in the game, Skill Monkey doesn't mean you own everyskill (WTF would a rouge want Concentration or most of the knowledge skills except as roleplay highlites) Get your two roles down and stick to em That's Right Two Roles

Trapfinding (unless you already play in a group with a dedicated trapfinder)

and

Social (Cha Skills, excluding use magic device)
Detection ( Wisdom Skills)
Movement (Str and Dex Skills)
Magic ( The Oddballs and UMD)

Go in with a medium Int, It's gold you got 10+ Skills at max just depending.

If your looking for stat suggestions, I suggest Dex, Int, Cha, Wis, Str or Con

I say str or con cause both are equally bad for a rouge unless you dip

Dex for AC bonus to movement skills and reflex saves ( along with the signature ability, EVASION. also Inititive, enough cannot be said about dex

Int for those lovely lovely skill points

Cha for Bluff maybe Diplomacy and Use Magic Device, even if your not gunning it, for 5 points into bluff you get 6 in bonus's back threw synergy. UMD is perhaps the most useful skill ever, alowing the thief to use magic. You know what's worse than a sneaky theif? a sneaky thief with a wand of greater invisibility that it can use, screw flanking ( and yes i know it's not perfect, substitute with blink or other useful utility spells.

Wisdom for those Will Saves and spoting listening, How many spot checks have have you rolled in DnD EXACTLY

Str or Con or Both, This Fighting Stuff Ain't Bad, But if your going to be doing it, it wont be threw mass amounts of str and con. Your HD is a D6 live with it, think of con as a fort boost first and extra Hp second. Str helps few more movement skills, and carry stuff. again any fighting will be done threw the grace of magic or skill not stats ( Just look at the fighter it aint working for him so why would it work for you, it works for the druid cause he can turn into something with 20/20/20 not cause his human stats rock.

As for Feats,

From Core, Not alot of Great One's

Save Boosts ( People Sneer at these talking about efficiency but the moral of the story is you roll a lot of saves all the time it never hurts to get higher saves, blahblahblah you can do it with magic items or by playing smart yes you can but it's never perfect and in the end if it's a save vs disintigrate or a save vs a mind flayer you wanna make it, even if your dice rolled 1 to low)

Skill Boosts ( Again People Sneer, but hey the game is built on scaling DC's and If their is anyway to get ahead of the curve and that is what your character does, then why wouldn't you )

Weapon Finese - Not bad , you can take it at 3rd at earliest, but really is a boost of +3 or +4 to hit ( maybe more if your str really sucks )without the Damage and Hp to back it up really gonna mean anything to you?

Improved Inititive, - Again how many of these checks have you made wishing to roll high?

Dodge Mobility, I enjoy them and they are a big gateway thing, but it all comes down to circumstantial AC, and i sometime's think it's better just to use

COMBAT EXPERTISE, flat 5 dodge bonus for -5 to attack's seems like gold to me with Dodge's stacking and such. Open's up some nifty things to do in combat as well.

that more or less leaves the combat tree's

Mounted Combat and friends- no
TWF and friends- Weak but if your going to be going into combat anyway, why not throw away your shield bonus or use ANOTHER FEAT to get it back in return for a second set of inerritive attacks that you only ever get to use if you stay put in combat
PBS and friends - not bad, if your going archery. Bit Harder to get your sneak attacks in, but you will actually have something to do every round, Proabbly want to stay away from multi shot however ( Medium Base Attack combined with the fact that you only get precision damage on the first shot means it's only so so)
Power Attack - no - nuff said

Now Bear in mind , what i say is what i play and have seen play, lots of people , particularly optimizers will probably refute what i say, but remember. Optimum build's are rarely optimum until a certian point, if the optimizes can't trade off or cope with earlier utility, it's of no use to you unless your past that point.

PS again halfling's are all about climbing over the curve, not nearly as bad as some of the above have made them out, plus fun to boot, who doesn't want to look like a child thief, and do the whole dicken's thing ( Hint anything that gives Dex and Penalizes Str without touching CHa and Int and a handful of other boosts is gold)

ravenkith
2007-03-23, 01:35 PM
For a core-only rogue, 32 point buy, I'd suggest the following:

Human
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 16
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

All of your bonus points from passing 4th, 8th, 12 and 16 should definitely go in dex.

Your initial feats should probably be weapon finesse and dodge. Your feat progression will probably look something like this:

Human: Dodge
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Two weapon Fighting
6: Combat Expertise
9: Improved Two weapon Fighting
12: Combat Reflexes
15: ???
18: Greater two weapon fighting

Important skills: tumble, spot, listen, search, disable device, open lock, sleight of hand and bluff.
Nice skills: Gather information, sense motive, various knowledges, escape artist.

Don't forget that your rogue special abilities could be used to pick up feats as well, if you like.

I personally like crippling strike, improved evasion, and skill mastery, though.

Make sure you read up on the sleight of hand skill. It can be used to great effect, as can bluff.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-23, 01:46 PM
That's a reasonably solid core-only build. I'd suggest Improved Initiative for your missing feat to go with the core motif.

Skill-wise, with this build, I'd suggest focusing on tumble, sleight of hand, hide, move silently, bluff, open lock, disable device, and diplomacy. You should have enough room thereafter to pick some personal favorites to further flesh your guy out. Consider spot, search, and listen (so long as you're human, you can handle amping all three with this build). Gather Information and Escape Artist are also reasonably good skills. Don't forget that you don't necessarily have to max all of your favored skills- you can forgo keeping up with them every level or so to round out some of your lesser-used stuff a little without sacrificing too much capability.

Kolvin
2007-03-23, 04:16 PM
For a core-only rogue, 32 point buy, I'd suggest the following:

Human
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 16
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

All of your bonus points from passing 4th, 8th, 12 and 16 should definitely go in dex.

Your initial feats should probably be weapon finesse and dodge. Your feat progression will probably look something like this:

Human: Dodge
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Two weapon Fighting
6: Combat Expertise
9: Improved Two weapon Fighting
12: Combat Reflexes
15: ???
18: Greater two weapon fighting

Important skills: tumble, spot, listen, search, disable device, open lock, sleight of hand and bluff.
Nice skills: Gather information, sense motive, various knowledges, escape artist.

Don't forget that your rogue special abilities could be used to pick up feats as well, if you like.

I personally like crippling strike, improved evasion, and skill mastery, though.

Make sure you read up on the sleight of hand skill. It can be used to great effect, as can bluff.


Please note that a 1st lvl Rogue cannot take Weapon Finesse since it has a +1 Base Attack Bonus requirement. This isn't a big deal since you're building a 5th level character but the poster might want to take a note of it. ;-)

My 32 point melee combat Rogue build is a bit different but since I play an elf I won't bore you with the details.

kamikasei
2007-03-23, 04:29 PM
Guys, he's looking for a 36-point build.

Kolvin
2007-03-23, 05:21 PM
My personal ideas for a 36 pt build with a Halfling (IMO the superior choice for a Small Rogue)

Str: 12 (A modest bonus to damage is better than no bonus at all)
Dex: 20 (The base of a good Rogue)
Con: 14 (Hit points are better than AC in this game)
Int: 14 (No need to have much more Int your skill pts from the class are already awesome)
Wis: 10 (A weakness but the archtype Rogue isn't always wise)
Cha: 11 (Possibly to be advanced later to boost your social skills)

These are the modified scores for race and stat increase at 4th lvl.

Feat choice:

Since you're small and you have limited mobility I might not recommend a melee oriented Rogue which IMO would include Two Weapon Fighting. That being said it's not completely unworkable to make a skirmish Rogue with a small character. The reason I don't recommend staying in close melee is basically that being small will cause you a large headache from grappling creatures which are fairly common.

1st lvl: Dodge

3rd lvl: Weapon Finesse

4th lvl Stat increase: +1 Dex

6th lvl: Mobility

8th lvl Stat Increase: + 1 Con

9th lvl: Spring Attack or Combat Reflexes (to qualify for Shadowdancer)

I'd also suggest you consider taking a high Tumble skill along with the usual Rogue Skillset (Disable Device, Open Lock, Move Silently, Hide, Search)

Jannex
2007-03-23, 06:09 PM
As others have said, Dexterity and Intelligence are your highest priorities. A decent Con doesn't hurt, but don't go overboard with it. Strength isn't terribly important for you either; if you don't have a penalty, you're doing great. Beyond that... it's a matter of what your character concept is. One of the things I've always loved about rogues is that they have so much room for different concepts. One character I played once (though not for as long as I'd've liked; I hope to use the concept again sometime) was a travelling performer. She did juggling and acrobatics (Perform: Dance, Tumble, and Sleight of Hand... I was eventually going to make her a Dervish. Fun stuff.), and carried sets of three throwing axes, three light maces, etc. to juggle. She lived out of her wagon (the sort of thing gypsies are commonly depicted with), so she could store all her stuff in it. Back to the point, however, concept is going to inform your stat choices from here on out. The con-artist or the diplomat is going to want Charisma, the stubborn or paranoid type is going to want Wisdom, etc. In most cases, a 14 should be more than enough to support the concept, but do what feels right for the character.

Point-buy is one point from 8-14, two for 15 and 16, and three for 17-18, right? (It's been a while.) So with 36 points, you've got a lot to play with. The way I tend to figure stats when doing point-buy is to start all of them out at the same level, and then move points around from there. It helps me visualize. So for starters, you've got 14's across the board (which, honestly, is a character I wouldn't mind playing...), before we start moving things around. Knocking Str down to 10 brings your Dex up to 16. For the same treatment for your Intelligence, either bring two of (Con, Wis, Cha) down to 12, or bring one of them down to 10. If you wanted to come up with another six points you could bring your Dex up to 18, but it's up to you whether you think that's worth it. I personally tend to favor a more balanced spread, but you're the one playing this character.

Dexterity is going to be your combat stat. You'll want to decide now whether you want to go for Dex-melee or archery as your primary form of combat. Archery has the advantage of staying out of reach of the enemy tanks, but you won't be able flank, which limits your sneak attack options to not being seen. As such, Hide and Move Silently are your bestest best friends. Which will more than likely make you the party scout (even more so since you can find traps), so you'll want Spot, Listen, and Search too. (To be honest, I don't recall ever having played a rogue--or any skillmonkey--without max or near-max ranks in those five skills.) Really, I think you should take them even if you go the Dex-melee route as well. And if you do that, you'll want Tumble (okay, let's be honest, you'll want tumble regardless). I figure those should be your priorities at every level. Look at where you get your synergy bonuses from (especially if you're at all social, because synergies from Bluff and to Diplomacy are made of win). From there, figure out which skills make the most sense for your concept and focus on them--but I'd drop at least one rank into any Trained-Only skill that you think there's even a remote chance you'll want to use.

As far as feats are concerned, Weapon Finesse is imperative if you have any pretensions of getting anywhere near melee. Beyond that, I'm a personal fan of the Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack tree, especially if you have any thoughts of multiclassing with Scout (another class I love; skirmish FTW), and Combat Reflexes. I've never played a TWF rogue, so if you go that route you'll have to let me know how it works... I'd personally be wary of it, since you've only got 3/4 BAB progression, so the -2 to hit won't be doing you any favors. If you go the archery route, the archery feat tree is fun stuff; start with Point-Blank Shot and work your way up, in whatever style feels best to you. (Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to run a dedicated archer very far up the feat tree yet.)

Other than that... human. I know you mentioned wanting to play one of the Small races, and if it fits your concept go ahead, but really, for a rogue, I think that the extra feat, the extra skill points, and the extra 10' of movement is going to serve you better. Again, especially if you multiclass into Scout, because having a move speed of 40'+ is awesome.

marjan
2007-03-23, 06:14 PM
Point-buy is one point from 8-14, two for 15 and 16, and three for 17-18, right? (It's been a while.)
One for 8-14, two for 15, thre for 16, four for 17 and 5 for 18 if I remember correctly.
And as much I don't like Elves, I must say that if you want scout-rogue they make pretty decent rogue (they practicaly get alertnes).
If you want Halfiling you could take Strongheart Halfling (I think that's the name for the one with bonus feat on first level). Besides them Humans are good for any class, including Rogue

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-23, 06:18 PM
One for 8-14, two for 15, thre for 16, four for 17 and 5 for 18 if I remember correctly.

You don't. :smallwink:

marjan
2007-03-23, 06:26 PM
Ah, once again you are right my orb friend.:smallredface:

kamikasei
2007-03-23, 06:33 PM
Are we technically allowed to post those rules here? We probably are, I would just like to be sure :P

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-23, 06:38 PM
Are we technically allowed to post those rules here? We probably are, I would just like to be sure :P

They are not part of the OGL, so I would not do it. :smallamused:

But they have been posted numerous times here and elsewhere, so they would be really easy to find.

Guinea Anubis
2007-03-26, 12:05 PM
Thanks for all your help guys. One last question, Any must have migic items as a rogue?

Raum
2007-03-26, 12:13 PM
Gloves of Dexterity...or some other dexterity enhancing item. Beyond that it depends on what type of rogue you're planning on playing. TWFer's do well with light weapons with the Wounding enchantment. At some point you'll probably want a skill enhancer for UMD. You'll also want good armor...probably a mithril chain shirt with the silence and hide enchantments.

Of course all that can change depending on your character concept.

Jannex
2007-03-27, 03:55 AM
mithril chain shirt

Agreed. Best armor ever. No armor check penalty FTW. Magic it up a bit, add the stealth enchantments, and you're golden.

Other than that... I have a particular fondness for Keen rapiers, but that really depends on your character's combat style. And you can never go wrong with a Bag of Holding (or other extradimensional space storage item). Like Raum said, get your Dex as high as you can with magic items, get a magicked-up mithril chain shirt, and any other items that boost your AC don't hurt either. You've got a d6 hit die--getting hit is Bad Plan. (Helpful hint: deflection bonuses also help your touch AC, so Rings of Protection are your friends.)

its_all_ogre
2007-03-27, 04:38 AM
the other thing i like to do when designing a rogue is to grab as many of the skill synergy bonuses as i can, so long as they fit the background.
no other class can do this as easily as the rogue.
if you want to play a typical rogue then halfling is the best at hitting the highest checks, ok a human has one extra skill at max ranks, but the halfling is small (+1 ac ab +4 hide) +2 dex (another + 1 to each of those 3 and reflex saves) and +2 to a load of other skills.
the main thing the human has is bonus feat and 30' speed.
the halfling 20' speed will hurt at some point though :-(
gnomes on the other hand gain nifty SLA's especially ghost sound! great for distracting monsters and golems, but lose a naff stat and gain a naff stat not so good.
if you want to do good in combat you need to do melee for sneak attack goodness, grab improved initiative, i don't recommend TWF cause you have to stand still per RAW to get two attacks, possibly grab it with your 6th level feat ready for when the wizard grabs improved invisibility!
think in depth about your backstory, rogues really do well with a well thought-out back story.(ok all classes do i suppose!)

JellyPooga
2007-03-27, 06:23 AM
Magic Items must haves for a Rogue:

Spool of Infinite Rope - 500ft of rope that only weighs 1lb? yes please.

One of the Belt of Many Pockets varieties (I believe there are at least two) - low strength = can't carry much and very few of your items are all that big.

Scarf of Warmth - because everyone should have a scarf that...keeps you...warm....:smallamused: ummm, isn't that what scarves do anyway?

Hat of Disguise/Mask of Lies - it always helps to be able to look like someone else

That glove that you can keep a single item in stasis in (forget what it's called) - useful for keping one item that won't fit in your belt (my favourite is to keep my Rapier there, but that's just personal preferance).

hmm, having a brainlock at the mo, might give some more later...

Jannex
2007-03-27, 08:06 AM
That glove that you can keep a single item in stasis in (forget what it's called) - useful for keping one item that won't fit in your belt (my favourite is to keep my Rapier there, but that's just personal preferance).

Glove of Storing. Good call, but it does compete for the same magic item slot as Gloves of Dexterity.

TRM
2007-03-27, 08:41 AM
For a core-only rogue, 32 point buy, I'd suggest the following:



Human: Dodge
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Two weapon Fighting
6: Combat Expertise
9: Improved Two weapon Fighting

Weapon finesse has a prerequisite of +1 Base Attack Bonus.
Possibly switch TWF and Weapon Finesse

Edit: Should have read the rest of the other posts first. Someone already pointed this out.

Person_Man
2007-03-27, 09:24 AM
AAARrgh!!! Why, oh why, would anyone ever prioritise Con for a Rogue? (unless they were playing the 'Thug' Rogue, of course). It's even worse than giving Wizards high Con!

Rogues, Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards and associated people are NOT, I repeat NOT, well known for their beefy physique and hardy constitutions.

I'm well known as a cheesy optimizer. I will will say unequivocally that Con should be the first or second highest stat for almost every build.

Con determines hit points. Aside from being a full caster, high hit points are the single best way to improve your survivability.

For example, let's take two Rogues, Bob and Joe, two 10th level Rogues.

Bob: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 18, Cha 10, AC 30, Hit Points 38
Joe: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 18, Cha 10, AC 26, Hit Points 78

Both Bob and Joe have a high Int, because the main goal of a Skill Monkey is to be good at Skills, and Int determines Skill Points.

Bob has +4 to his Dex Skills over Joe, he'll get hit somewhat less often thanks to his higher AC, and he'll usually start higher in the Initiative then Joe. So most people who want to play a Rogue would choose to play Bob.

But I would choose to play Joe. He has more then twice the hit points Bob has. If Bob fails a single Save or gets hit with a single critical hit, he could easily be killed dead. It doesn't matter what your Dex is if your enemy rolls a natural 20 to hit or if you roll 1 on a Save. Both of these things happen eventually - and when it does, the only defense is high hit points.

If Joe gets hit really bad or get hurt more often due to lower AC, it'll hurt. But he probably won't die immediately. His high hit points will give him time to Tumble away.

But with 38 hit points at level 10, Bob is almost certain to die eventually. Assuming someone can get Raise Dead for him, Bob is down at least 5,000 gp, and he loses a level. So now Bob is a 9th level Rogue, and Joe is still 10th level, because he hasn't died. But they're still playing in an ECL 10 campaign.

Joe is now a level higher and has 5,000 gp more - so now he's clearly a much better character to play.

Obviously, a good Rogue should have high Int, Con, and Dex. But it would be foolish to have a low Con under any circumstances.

its_all_ogre
2007-03-27, 09:28 AM
actually he gets max hps in this case.
so i would disagree.

Person_Man
2007-03-27, 10:14 AM
actually he gets max hps in this case.
so i would disagree.

Max hit points? Ah, I missed that detail of the OP's post.

OK, I concede the point that if your DM changes a basic rule of D&D and grants you max hit points, then high Con is mathematically not as important. Of course, if my DM were to give me max hit points, I'd have the overwhelming urge to play a Knight build.

Guinea Anubis
2007-03-27, 10:29 AM
Ok so with all of your help here is what I came up with for my level 5 Rogue

Race - Human

Str - 10
Dex - 19
Con - 12
Int - 16
Wis - 10
Chr - 10



Feats - TWF, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse

Skills - I put 8 in to Tumble, Slight of Hand, UMD, Open lock, Search, Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Diplomacy, Climb (and since I dont have my sheet infront of me I forget where I put the last 16)

my starting 9,000 gold I have picked out this

A Handy Haversack (with all the mundane items I have its nice not having to take the extra time looking for them)

mithril chain shirt

A Keen Rapier (the DM said that he is going to let sneak attack damage Crit)

A Shocking Rapier (for the things I can not crit)

this way both my weapons will be at +1 for getting past DR. and with the long list of mundane items I have I still have a little over 1000 gold left for potions.

So do you guys see anything I should change?

its_all_ogre
2007-03-27, 10:44 AM
the weapons must be +1 before they can gain enchantments like keen/shocking.

JellyPooga
2007-03-27, 10:47 AM
Bluff skill. You missed Bluff (unless it part of the other 16 skill points of course). Perhaps the easiest way to get a Sneak Attack is to Feint and you need Bluff for that.

I would say not to take 2 rapiers. My advice would be to take the Keen Rapier, but replace the Shocking Rapier with a Shocking Dagger (or perhaps a Returning one so you have some magical ranged capability). 3 reasons...1) You can throw a dagger and you can't throw a Rapier. 2) TWF penalties are lower for having a light weapon in your off-hand. 3) I can't remember if you said whether you were allowed any non-core, but there is a varient use of Sleight of Hand in Complete Warrior that allows you to draw a light weapon and attack with it on a successful SoH check (vs. Spot I think) after fighting with an opponent for a couple of rounds which causes your opponent to be flat-footed for the purposes of that attack...sneak attack anyone?...if you aren't allowed non-core, reason 3 is that a dagger is concealable (+2 to SoH to conceal), so when you're weapons are confiscated, whilst everyone else is unarmed, you stil have your dagger.

Jannex
2007-03-27, 10:48 AM
So do you guys see anything I should change?

Unless it turns out those last 16 skill points are in Spot and Listen, you might consider changing them into Spot and Listen; in all my experience as a rogue/skillmonkey, those are important skills to have. If you're doing the social thing, you might consider Bluff as well, since five ranks in it give something like three different synergy bonuses. You might be able to get by without much in Climb, as climbing a knotted rope is DC 5, and there's no reason you shouldn't have a knotted silk rope attached to a grappling hook stored in your Haversack at all times.

Either my math is wrong, or yours is, or your DM altered the magic weapon rules, because it seems to me that your rapiers are too expensive for your 9,000 starting gold. Other than that, though, the equipment looks good. Make sure you've got enough mundane equipment to cover all your bases (like, as I suggested, the knotted silk rope with the grappling hook), and you should be good.

its_all_ogre
2007-03-27, 11:05 AM
its because the keen rapier is a +1 net and not a +1 with keen enchantment i imagine, cause that would make it 8320 each.

Guinea Anubis
2007-03-27, 11:17 AM
the weapons must be +1 before they can gain enchantments like keen/shocking.


you know I thought the same thing but the DM said" no, they just have to be masterwork"

I was willing to spend most of my money on a Keen Rapier, NP but he said that it would only cost 2320 gold.

*shrug* who am I to agrue with the DM.

Also I thought a rapier was a light weapon.

Jannex
2007-03-27, 11:24 AM
you know I thought the same thing but the DM said" no, they just have to be masterwork"

I was willing to spend most of my money on a Keen Rapier, NP but he said that it would only cost 2320 gold.

*shrug* who am I to agrue with the DM.

Yeah, that's not how the core rules work, but if that's how your DM wants it... Rule #1 of being a PC: Never argue with the DM against your own interests. :smallwink:


Also I thought a rapier was a light weapon.

Nope; one-handed, I think.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-27, 01:01 PM
Actually, I wouldn't suggest the dagger on the offhand. I love daggers- they're my favorite weapon- but there really isn't much of a reason not to take a shortsword instead for the better damage. Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, however, might make dual-wielding keen rapiers a rather remarkable sight (and not half bad mechanically either). OTWF isn't core, though.

Adding to my original build of a rogue/scout TWF, if you liked that idea, take a single level of shadowdancer. Yes, shadowdancer. I know it's a relatively underpowered prestige class, but the first level gets you an ability that is extremely useful for my hide-sneak attack-hide again formula: Hide in Plain Sight. Scout gets it too, but the scout's version is limited to natural terrain. The shadowdancer's version is limited to shadows. Between them, you can practically hide anywhere outside of a glass tower under the sun, all in an instant merely by moving (or in this case, at the end of every spring attack to make your whereabouts impossible to figure out while you rain stabbity death upon your foes).

Quietus
2007-03-27, 01:34 PM
One thing I do like about the shadowdancer is their ability to summon shadows - who DOESN'T like the idea of several incorporeal creatures eating away at their opponent's strength while they're unable to do anything about it?

Aside from that, while those magic weapons are definately cheesetacular for their price (the 8320 price tag would be correct, but if your DM wants to change that, good show!), looks good to me.

clericwithnogod
2007-03-27, 01:50 PM
Rogue 5
Deep Halfling (if you can swing it)

STR:12(06)
DEX:21(16)
CON:14(06)
INT:14(06)
WIS:10(02)
CHA:08
HP: 40

01 Two Weapon Fighting
03 Weapon Finesse
04 DEX increase
06 Quick Draw or Improved Initiative
08 DEX increase
09 Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Skills: Balance (5/+12), Climb (6/+9), Jump (5/+10), Tumble (8/+15), Listen (8/+10), Spot (8/+8), Search (8/+10), Disable Device (8/+10), Open Lock (8/+13), Hide (8/+17), Move Silently (8/+15).

I like Quick Draw because it lets you start an encounter empty handed and make a ranged or melee attack as appropriate then move. It also allows iterative throws. Improved Initiative is always nice too though.

I'd keep maxing the skills that are maxed and get the others to where the checks meet the DCs you want to meet, using the leftovers for other skills.

EDIT - Boots of Striding and Springing are really nice as far as equipment. Other than that, a mithril shirt, some things to throw, a rapier and a Handy Haversack. The haversack and boots you'll keep your whole career, a +1 whatever you'd be replacing anyway.

ravenkith
2007-03-27, 02:28 PM
Rapiers are piercing. You cannot keen them.

Shortswords are better for twf, as they are light weapons...rapiers, while finessable, are not light weapons.

(So -2/-2 instead of -4/-4)

Spot, listen and search are incredibly important to any rogue.

tumble is a wise choice for any melee rogue.

Stronheart halflings are cool and all, but they lower your base die type when dealing damage. Make sure to take that into account during creation.

Deadly Precision (psionic handbook) is a good feat for a rogue.

A monk's belt can be a worthwhile investment, especially if you have a positive wisdom modifier.

Natural armor amulets are fun!

Cloaks of resistance are good too.

Hewards handy haversack = awesome.

Mithril shirt = teh winnah!

Just my 2 cents.

Draz74
2007-03-27, 03:20 PM
Rapiers are piercing. You cannot keen them.

Nope. Only bludgeoning weapons are restricted from being Keen.



Shortswords are better for twf, as they are light weapons...rapiers, while finessable, are not light weapons.

(So -2/-2 instead of -4/-4)

Don't have access to OTWF right now, can't comment.



Spot, listen and search are incredibly important to any rogue.

Depends on party composition. If someone else has Spot and Listen maxxed (Ranger?), and someone else has Search maxxed and Trapfinding (Artificer? Beguiler?), then these become much more optional. Normally, yes, an excellent idea for a rogue, especially in a small- or normal-sized party.


tumble is a wise choice for any melee rogue.

Probably true, but personally I sometimes like to skip it. Make rogues tough enough to survive AoO's, or have high enough AC (Mobility?) to get missed constantly on AoO's, or use strange feats or tactics (Feint?) to get sneak attack without having to move to flank an opponent. These can be fun, if not optimal, rogue concepts.


Stronheart halflings are cool and all, but they lower your base die type when dealing damage. Make sure to take that into account during creation.

Not too important. The difference is usually 1 less damage per hit, which is insignificant compared to Sneak Attack damage.


Deadly Precision (psionic handbook) is a good feat for a rogue.
Meh. Doesn't actually help much. Just increases average sneak attack die damage from 3.5 to 3.92. Weak.


A monk's belt can be a worthwhile investment, especially if you have a positive wisdom modifier.

ONLY if you have a positive wisdom modifier. Like a really really good one. Otherwise, it's still got minor perks (unarmed damage) but isn't worth the money.


Natural armor amulets are fun!
Cloaks of resistance are good too.
Hewards handy haversack = awesome.
Mithril shirt = teh winnah!

All of these are true, though they're not especially rogue-specific. Many classes like these items. :smallsmile:

ravenkith
2007-03-27, 03:26 PM
Deadly precision is only good when you have multiple dice of sneak damage.

By the time you can get it, you usually have multiple dice.

I'll tell you, it sucks to get your sneak off on a critter only to roll all ones.

clericwithnogod
2007-03-27, 03:28 PM
EDIT: Actually, it wasn't said. As long as your off-hand weapon is light, you can use any one-handed weapon in your primary hand and get -2/-2, so a rapier (primary) and shortsword/dagger/whatever in your off hand is fine.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-27, 03:36 PM
Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting just lets you use any weapon in your off-hand like it was a light weapon for the purposes of imposing TWF penalties. If you've got it, weapon finesse, and a high DEX score (ie are a rogue), then rapiers are easily the best weapons in the game for you. Same damage as the shortsword, higher crit-range (much higher after keen. Remember- 2 extra points on a d20 roll is a little more than 10%). So, OTWF is highly useful. Just not really a necessity for any build that I can think of.

Tumble is a great skill for letting you get around a lot of enemies at once. Remember- your HP is pitiful, and your AC isn't the best either. When someone hits you, it especially hurts the fragile rogue. Every single stat that can help you live a little longer is a boon, and skipping a bunch of AoO's is definitely a plus. Also, I really reccomend not even trying to make your AC good with a rogue. You can't succeed without limiting the class's appeal and impairing your own usefulness. Much better to either put yourself in situations where you can't be hit back for whatever reason or load up on stuff that increases your HP instead. This is especially true in late game/epics.

And I really would always suggest the human over the halfling. That extra feat helps immensly with the feat-suckage that TWF will bring down upon your head, and the extra skillpoint a level is arguably more significant than an extra 2 DEX.

ravenkith
2007-03-27, 03:52 PM
Although, an arcane trickster build might be a good choice instead, especially if you buy into some of the early-entry strategies, or go with a martial wizard as opposed to the regular kind.

(three bonus fighter feats for levels I was going to have to take anyways? yes please!)

Rogue 3/(Martial) Diviner 5/Arcane Trickster 10/Abjurant Champion 2

By level 8, you'd have 3 regular feats and 3 fighter feats.

Mmm tasty.

Of course your BAB is going to be pretty rotten, but to help address that, you could trade out some levels of arcane trickster for more abjurant champion...

Enh, it's a thought.

Jamie Fameflame
2007-03-27, 06:46 PM
Anubis; Reg. skill selection, have you talked to the other members of the group? If they have an overlapping skill selection, it might be better to change a few of yours?

Ie, the case of a Sorcerer being the spokesman of the group frees up diplomacy for something more useful (not that it isn't useful with 2 diplomats in a group, but anyway...)