Greatsword damage speculation

[Atmosk]

I've heard people claim that the Greatsword has an averaged expected damage of 7. In practice I believe that number should be higher. If your going to use a Greatsword, then odds are your a martial class with the great weapon fighting feature (fighter/paladin), in which case you can reroll any 1's and 2's on damage then take the second roll as the result. The way its written it seems to apply to individual damage die, so If you roll two 1's you would reroll both d6, but if only one of your d6 is a 1 or 2 then you would only reroll that die.

If this is a correct reading of GWF, then shouldn't that make your expected damage increase? its true that usually a d6 has a averaged roll of 3.5, but with GWF you reduce the frequency of 1's and 2's by 50% and thus increase the frequency of 4-6's. I'm not exactly sure how to calculate how much of an impact that 50% reduction should make in regards to the average roll of a d6, but it seems like something worth consideration.

EDIT: Simply replacing 1 and 2 with the average roll of 3.5 equals out to 4.17, multiplied by 2 this makes the great sword average 8.34, per swing.

[MadBear]

Well.... I was going to respond, but then you answered your own point..... so yay?

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Barbarians like greatswords too, and they don't get any fancy-shmancy fighting styles like those snooty armored folks get.

[MadBear]

Barbarians like greatswords too, and they don't get any fancy-shmancy fighting styles like those snooty armored folks get.

I thought barbarians liked the great-axes a little bit better.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I'm not one to do the math, but as far as features go, Brutal Critical does incentivise the use of greataxes, since it adds a die to the crit. But criticals makes a small percentage of your hits, and therefore damage. Greatswords do better damage the rest of the time. There is a tipping point when you compare your to-hit to the target AC where the crits make a larger portion of all hits where the axe is definitly better, but outside of that the greatsword does better damage i believe.

This is all second-hand from what I remember from some other thread awhile ago.

[Hytheter]

I'm not one to do the math, but as far as features go, Brutal Critical does incentivise the use of greataxes, since it adds a die to the crit. But criticals makes a small percentage of your hits, and therefore damage. Greatswords do better damage the rest of the time. There is a tipping point when you compare your to-hit to the target AC where the crits make a larger portion of all hits where the axe is definitly better, but outside of that the greatsword does better damage i believe.

This is all second-hand from what I remember from some other thread awhile ago.

I did some maths using an excel spreadsheet. The tipping points (defined as "Greataxe wins if an X or higher is required to hit) are:
Brutal 1: 16
Brutal 2: 10
Brutal 3: 4
Brutal 4*: -2 (so always)

So until you get 3 or 4 Brutal dice Greatsword is probably better. The difference isn't all that significant though, so I say do what your heart tells you. If there was a way to increase the Critical Hit rate outside of Champion though, we might be in business.

*Half-Orc ability essentially increases Brutal Dice by 1

[bloodshed343]

But what about the great club.

[Mechaviking]

But what about the great club.

No we do not speak of the great club, that somehow breaks physics by virtue of NOT BEING HEAVY despite beaing HEAVIER than a great sword or axe.

Also it rolls 1d8 for damage so meh.

[Pex]

No we do not speak of the great club, that somehow breaks physics by virtue of NOT BEING HEAVY despite beaing HEAVIER than a great sword or axe.

Also it rolls 1d8 for damage so meh.

The first rule of Great Club is don't speak about Great Club.

[bloodshed343]

You read wrong. It's 11d8. That's eleven d8.

[Kyutaru]

I miss critical chance stats.

[bloodshed343]

PS: how do I make a signature to quote pex.

[Heartspan]

Click the little quote button underneath his post~ and great axes look more bad buttocks and deal bonus damage to give enemies hurt feelings! 10/10 would disembowel with again!

[Atmosk]

Well.... I was going to respond, but then you answered your own point..... so yay?

Yeah, I went to the bathroom and I realized I could just sub 3.5 to 1 and 2. Bathrooms are weird like that.

Anyway so am I the only one who thinks that is pretty significant? I mean Duelist was already losing in terms of damage to the Greatsword with 6.5 to 7 and this pushes it farther. And the same goes for TWF, which loses to GWF even if they take the feat.

[Hytheter]

Yeah, I went to the bathroom and I realized I could just sub 3.5 to 1 and 2. Bathrooms are weird like that.

Anyway so am I the only one who thinks that is pretty significant? I mean Duelist was already losing in terms of damage to the Greatsword with 6.5 to 7 and this pushes it farther. And the same goes for TWF, which loses to GWF even if they take the feat.

Duelist let's you use a shield. It's a trade-off; less damage for better armor. TWF depends on what kind of damage bonuses you're getting. If they're high, it can be better to have more attacks, but it's generally considered the weaker style.

[Frenth Alunril]

Quick, someone say something about weapon speeds!

All of this becomes a moot point when the duelist wins initiative, but I haven't got a dmg yet so all of this is conjecture based on something someone told me they heard. But depending on the rules that come with weapon speeds, a duelist with a rapier might poke holes I your great weapon fighting hopes.

[silveralen]

I thought barbarians liked the great-axes a little bit better.

Somewhere after lvl 10 (slightly earlier if half orc) it evens out. But up till then no.

[MadBear]

Somewhere after lvl 10 (slightly earlier if half orc) it evens out. But up till then no.


This makes me wonder if going Champion Fighter 3/ Barbarian 17 is a worthwhile combo then. You lose out at the +4 strength, but double your chances of getting a critical.

[Atmosk]

Quick, someone say something about weapon speeds!

All of this becomes a moot point when the duelist wins initiative, but I haven't got a dmg yet so all of this is conjecture based on something someone told me they heard. But depending on the rules that come with weapon speeds, a duelist with a rapier might poke holes I your great weapon fighting hopes.

Isn't weapon speeds an optional variation?

[Frenth Alunril]

Isn't weapon speeds an optional variation?

I guess, but isn't any of this optional?

[Knaight]

I guess, but isn't any of this optional?

Sure, but Weapon Speeds are an explicit variant rule, much more so than damage dice or class abilities. While Feats are also a variant, they're a variant with a lot of material behind them likely to be grandfathered in.

Plus, weapon speeds allow a bunch of nonsense like someone with a dagger somehow consistently getting to attack before someone with a spear, which is not the sort of thing that helps them get implemented.

[bloodshed343]

Proposed house rule to weapon speed: reach weapons get + 5.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I did some maths using an excel spreadsheet. The tipping points (defined as "Greataxe wins if an X or higher is required to hit) are:
Brutal 1: 16
Brutal 2: 10
Brutal 3: 4
Brutal 4*: -2 (so always)

So until you get 3 or 4 Brutal dice Greatsword is probably better. The difference isn't all that significant though, so I say do what your heart tells you. If there was a way to increase the Critical Hit rate outside of Champion though, we might be in business.

*Half-Orc ability essentially increases Brutal Dice by 1

So I did something similar, checking for a half-orc Champion fighter.

Crit on 20: if the required roll to hit is 17 the weapons are even, and for 18+ the axe gets better damage.
Crit on 19-20: Even at 14, axe wins if a roll of 15+ is required to hit.
Crit on 18-20: Even at 11, axe is better for 12+.

*My calculations assumed that all crits are hits, which technically isn't true for rolls of 18 & 19, but I think the effects of that omission are negligible. I also assumed a +5 STR mod to the damage.

[metaridley18]

This makes me wonder if going Champion Fighter 3/ Barbarian 17 is a worthwhile combo then. You lose out at the +4 strength, but double your chances of getting a critical.

I also toyed with the idea of Rogue 3, purely for Assassinate, as it doesn't specify sneak attacks. Guaranteed crits for your 4 to 6 attacks on the first turn (or two) of a battle might be worth the dip later on.

I eventually abandoned it when I couldn't find a way to get a greataxe work with Sneak Attack. You could use a Finesse weapon with strength to realize the extra 2D6 from sneak attack, but in terms of raw damage, the greataxe would be better due to the higher crit damage from Brutal Critical.

Maybe use the axe on round 1 and when you lose surprise, switch to a short sword for sneak attacking.....

"That half orc has an axe! I'm so surprised!"