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Hzurr
2007-03-27, 12:31 AM
Ok, so this is something that's been churning in the back of my mind for a while, and after spending some time reading Thucydides for a PoliSci class, I just have to do it.

I'm wanting to make an Ancient Greece campaign, based right after the fall of Troy. I was going to try and keep the flavor similar to The Illiad, The Odyssey, and The Aeneid.

Issues this creates:
- While there are supernatural monsters and encounters, effectively a low-magic world. No Casters.
- No races other than human.


So, here are my thoughts:

Classes
(note, I don't expect the campaign to go higher than 10th level or so)
The avalible classes would be
Barbarian - no changes
Bard - med armor prof, no spells. Inspire Courage +2 @ lvl 5; Inspire Greatness @ lvl 8; Inspire Courage +3 @ lvl 10
Fighter - 4 + int skillpoints/level
Rogue - no changes
Scout - no changes
Ranger - no spells, choose "favored enemy" from the following list:
{table]Human(Non-Greek)
Human(Greek, not divinely decended or favored)
Human(Zeusian)
Human(Aphroditish)
Human(Aresian)
Human(Apollon)
Human(Hermian)
Human(Athenian)
Human(Poseidonite)
Human(Hadesan)
Undead
Animals
Magical Beasts
Monstrous Humanoids[/table]

In addition, I'd like to create an "alchemist" class, that starts out creating generic alchemy things, but progresses to being able to brew magical potions as he progresses in level (say lvl 1 potions @ level 5, lvl 2 potions @ lvl 7, and lvl 3 potions @ lvl 9). This would be to address both the healing issue, and to address that there are soothsayers and mystics in ancient Greece, (but none that come close to d&d casters)

Possibly instead of an alchemist, a partial-caster?




Race
Instead of standard d&d races, I thought that since all Ancient Greek heroes of any note have some relation to a diety, you would just choose which diety is in your bloodline. After double checking my memory with Wikipedia, here's what I've got as far as Racial abilities

Zeus:
-2 int; +2 str
resistance electricity 3
-2 Sense motive
Humans with the Zeusian bloodline tend to be stronger and more noble than their peers. They are not, however, the most intellectual of greeks, and are easily swayed
Favored Class: Fighter

Aphrodite
-2 con; +2 cha
+2 diplomacy & bluff,
Decendents of Aphrodite tend to be vain, quick tempered, and easily offended. While not noted for their combat prowess, they tend to be very beautiful, and excell at fooling and manipulating others
Favored Class: Bard, Rogue

Ares:
-2 wis/-2 int; +2 con
rage 1/day (As the barbarian class ability, or increase number of uses of rage per day by 1)
Those of Ares' bloodling tend to be very fierce, and quick to anger. They are usually chaotic, with a love for violence and warfare.
Favored Class: Barbarian

Apollo:
+1 bonus on all ranged attacks made with a longbow or shortbow
Recieve the endurance feat
+2 bonus on heal checks
Decendents of Apollo inherit their diety's skill with a bow. Many tend to be athletes, and are renouned for their athletic abilities. Those of Apollo's bloodline tend to be healers, and occationally musicians
Favored Class: Rangers

Hermes:
-2 con/+2 int
+2 bonus on appraise/diplomacy checks
recieve the run feat
Many of Hermes' decendents inheret their god's love of travelling, commerce, and (unfortunately) theivery and deception. While those of the Hermian bloodline tend to shy away from the frontline, they are renown for their cunning
Favored Class: Bards, Rogues

Athena:
-2 str/+2 wis
recieve the weapon focus feat
While Athena has no decendents, there are some she chooses to bless, and claim as her own at birth. Those chosen by Athena tend to love battle, but rather than the bloodthirsty savagery of Ares, they prefer the stratigic aspect of war, and tend to be lawful in nature, with a passion for hunting
Favored Class: Fighters, Scouts

Poseidon
"Hold Breath" Special ability (can hold breath for 4*con score before risk of drowning)
+4 bonus on swim checks
+2 profession(sailor) checks
recieve the Animal Affinity feat
Decendents of Poseidon share their diety's love of the sea and beasts, and feel equally at home on a ship, or on the back of a horse. Rangers of Poseidon often choose followers of Athena as their favored enemy, a reflection of the conflict between their dieties during the Trojan war and the years leading to it
Favored Class: Ranger

Hades:
-2 wis/-2 cha; +2 int
+2 hide & move silently
+2 saves vs. Fear effects
Decendents of Hades tend to wait in the shadows, relying on their cunning to save them. They are not known their aimiable nature (many are downright gloomy), and seem prone to make poor decisions. Decendents of Hades tend to be neutral in nature, and extremely stubbern.
Favored Class: Rogue, Alchemist

Also, anyone has the option to go with the normal human bonuses

Other
Other changes I had considered making:

Also, add spot & listen everyone's skill list, and allow every one to choose any 2 skills and add them to their list (because I think that skills are significantly more important when you don't have casters)

Masterpiece items
- Taken from the Wheel of Time RPG -
Basically, masterwork quality weapons are nice, but masterpiece are one in a million. They cost double what masterwork items cost.
- Weapons grant a +2 to hit (instead of the +1 from masterwork).
- Masterpiece armor/shields grant a +1 to AC (in addition to the benifits from Masterwork)

Family heirloom
Every PC starts out with one heirloom that his family was given by the gods, basically just for flavor and fun. This is essentially a lowcost magic item. Some Examples:
Chalice of Aphrodite - 2/day, those who drink out of this chalice recieve the benifits of "Cure Moderate Wounds"
Hammer of Zeus - +1 shocking warhammer
Boots of Hermes - Boots of Striding and Springing
Lute of Apollo - Effects of Bardic Music last 2 rounds longer if made with this lute





So, that's what I have so far. Thoughts? Suggestions?

I'm primarily interested in balance issues, if anyone can help me come up with a good alchemist, and if anyone has any other gods to suggest adding to the "race" section.

Edit 1: Added Poseidon to diety list, and "Favored Enemy" to Ranger
Edit 2: Added Hades, corrected some typos.

alchemy.freak
2007-03-27, 10:33 AM
First of all, I want to congratulate you on not basing your ancient greek rules on the movie 300, unless you haven't seen the movie yet.

Couple things,

for athena, this may just be a personal thing for me, but i would make them more like the humans from d&d, bonus feat and +1 skill point per level, i think that might reflect athena a little better

also, consider adding a Posideon, with bonuses to Con and swim checks, give them the ability to hold their breath for 1 min per point of Con.

Maybe a Hades, but i am not sure what you would do with that

Raveler1
2007-03-27, 10:40 AM
Yay! Another historical d20 person!

I'm putting together a campaign based around Ancient Sumer, and in my research, I've found a book you might be interested in: OGL: Ancient Kingdoms has just about everything you'd ever want to know about classes and rules for an Ancient Greek/Egypt campaign. You definately should check it out if you're serious about doing an ancient Greek campaign. Not everything in the book is wonderful - of course not, that goes against gaming principle - but it's definately helpful to have all the pantheon information at your fingertips, plus stats for bronze/iron based weapons.

henebry
2007-03-27, 11:55 AM
This is really great looking. I especially like your use of divine blood in place of D&D races.

I gather that a Barbarian decended from Ares gets +1 to the number of his rages per day, while a non-barb decended from Ares gets 1 rage/day even though he doesn't have any barb class levels?

Also, your description of descendents of Aphrodite sounds (oddly) like the natural capacities of the hero Odysseus (bluff, diplomacy) even though Odysseus was beloved (though not decended) of the Goddess Athena. Perhaps you should make several packages available for each given god (so that one hero beloved of Athena gains power in war, while another gains wiliness in conversation).

Finally, you need to change "descendents" of gods to "descendants/favorites", since some gods (most prominently the virginal Athena) had no descendants.

Lapak
2007-03-27, 12:08 PM
It would seem that an obvious extension of the new 'race' structure would be to have the Ranger's favored enemy along the same track. You might even choose a default or required favored enemy for each deity, so that an Athenian Ranger necessarily has Poseidonites as his favored foes.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-03-27, 02:24 PM
Going to use any special rules for the whole Bronze thing? I know I'd be greatly disappointed if you didn't have exclusively wood and bronze equipment. :P

Hzurr
2007-03-27, 02:36 PM
alchemy.freak

First of all, I want to congratulate you on not basing your ancient greek rules on the movie 300, unless you haven't seen the movie yet.
Hey thanks! I've been planning this since before the movie came out, but I'm hoping that people's interest in the movie will get them more interested in the game.


for athena, this may just be a personal thing for me, but i would make them more like the humans from d&d, bonus feat and +1 skill point per level, i think that might reflect athena a little better

also, consider adding a Posideon, with bonuses to Con and swim checks, give them the ability to hold their breath for 1 min per point of Con.

Maybe a Hades, but i am not sure what you would do with that
I was trying to reflect the "Goddess of Wisdom and battle strategy" with Athena, and chose Weapon Focus to reflect both the passion for battle, and combat prowess (although I'm still not happy with a str penalty. But I wasn't sure how else I wanted to balance it)

I like your Posideon idea...I'll add it in.

I looked at Hades when I oritionally made it, and I just couldn't really come up with a good way to do it. I like him (as a god), but I'm just not sure how to translate it to game terms.

Raveler1

Yay! Another historical d20 person! Well... I wouldn't exactly call it history per se. :smallwink:

Where could I find a copy of Ancient Kingdoms?

henebry

This is really great looking. I especially like your use of divine blood in place of D&D races. Thanks. I spent a while trying to think of something to replace race, and this was the best I could come up with.


I gather that a Barbarian decended from Ares gets +1 to the number of his rages per day, while a non-barb decended from Ares gets 1 rage/day even though he doesn't have any barb class levels? Yep. I'll go back and clarify that in the origional post.


Also, your description of descendents of Aphrodite sounds (oddly) like the natural capacities of the hero Odysseus (bluff, diplomacy) even though Odysseus was beloved (though not decended) of the Goddess Athena. Perhaps you should make several packages available for each given god (so that one hero beloved of Athena gains power in war, while another gains wiliness in conversation). I agree that he was an excellent liar and diplomer (Did I just say "Diplomer"? :smallconfused:), but his greatest strength (and why he was loved by Athena) was his stratigic mind. I mean, he figures out how to defeat Troy with a freaking wooden horse! But he definately had a charisma score through the roof (I think he was a rogue myself)


Finally, you need to change "descendents" of gods to "descendants/favorites", since some gods (most prominently the virginal Athena) had no descendants. Ahh. Good call. I'll change it.

Lapak

It would seem that an obvious extension of the new 'race' structure would be to have the Ranger's favored enemy along the same track. You might even choose a default or required favored enemy for each deity, so that an Athenian Ranger necessarily has Poseidonites as his favored foes. Hmm... maybe not require them to, but strongly suggest?

How about this for a choice of Favored Enemies:
Human(Non-Greek)
Human(Greek, not divinely decended or favored)
Human(Zeusian)
Human(Aphroditish)
Human(Aresian)
Human(Apollon
Human(Hermian)
Human(Athenian)
Human(Poseidonite)
Undead
Animals
Magical Beasts
Monstrous Humanoids

Saithis Bladewing

Going to use any special rules for the whole Bronze thing? I know I'd be greatly disappointed if you didn't have exclusively wood and bronze equipment. :P Hmm...I think that would push me out of my "creative" phase, and right into "slamming my head against the wall" phase =)



Thanks for the input everyone! I'll edit the main post to reflect what y'all suggested, and I'll hopefully start typing out an alchemist/caster type class, and will post it in just a bit.

Edit: And I am making up words here. "Aphroditish"? I might be on crack.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-03-27, 03:36 PM
Saithis Bladewing
Hmm...I think that would push me out of my "creative" phase, and right into "slamming my head against the wall" phase =)

Awww, what's wrong with bronze? :'(

Hzurr
2007-03-27, 03:54 PM
Awww, what's wrong with bronze? :'(

Trying to work out what weapons would be allowed, what wouldn't be, hardness, weight, etc.

I mean, I'll still use it, but more on a logical as-it-comes-up basis, rather than going through and making detailed rules for it

Abjurer
2007-03-27, 04:26 PM
Looks pretty cool.

Can't say I'm into the free magic items, though.
Those are fairly major relics you're doling out. And magic
items won't be nearly as cherished if everyone has them.

McFayne
2007-03-27, 05:09 PM
I love the idea of a historical fiction campaign, as I've always loved classical history. This would let you use so many cool ancient world monsters the way they were originally written (sphinx, chimera, Pegasus etc.)
Also, I think the rules for bronze weapons and armor are located in the 3.5 DMG. Not sure what page though, but it's probably in the "Settings" section.

Hzurr
2007-03-27, 05:12 PM
Also, I think the rules for bronze weapons and armor are located in the 3.5 DMG. Not sure what page though, but it's probably in the "Settings" section.

Really? Hmm...I may have to check on this (and issue the appropriate apology to Saithis if this is correct)

jjpickar
2007-03-27, 05:25 PM
But the rules for Bronze weapons don't makes sense. -2 to hit doesn't reflect the quality of the metal. The main disadvantage with using bronze instead of iron is that it doesn't keep its edge as long and it breaks easily (especially if hit by an iron weapon).

Woot Spitum
2007-03-27, 05:32 PM
You might want to give bards an ability they can use at level 1, as going through four levels before they get their first ability will be hard on anyone playing one.

TheThan
2007-03-27, 05:33 PM
in case you're looking for a prestige class or two I just happen to have two that might fit into your world. if you like 'em, feel free to use 'em. oh the second one is a bit more roman than greek, but you might be able to make it fit.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32841


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33801

Darkkwalker
2007-03-27, 05:49 PM
Either buy or download the Age of Heroes Advanced DnD book. it's for campaigning in greece. Not much on mechanics as it is 2nd edition. But much on flavour. Of course that is if you are going to do historical real world Greece rather than a fantasy Greece setting. But still it has a very high flavour content and is definitely worth a look.

jjpickar
2007-03-27, 06:13 PM
You should make up rules for competing in athletic, creative (plays poems etc.), and rhetoric games. The ancient Greeks loved competition to a fault and it does add some non-combat related encounters tat can give exp. treasure and so on.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-03-27, 07:16 PM
But the rules for Bronze weapons don't makes sense. -2 to hit doesn't reflect the quality of the metal. The main disadvantage with using bronze instead of iron is that it doesn't keep its edge as long and it breaks easily (especially if hit by an iron weapon).

The rules don't make sense, it'd just have lower hardness if you ask me...

Though, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't iron weapons weaker than bronze ones? I thought that iron didn't become useful until they started making steel alloys. I've been wrong before, of course, and I'm unsure about this. Clarification would be nice.

TheThan
2007-03-27, 07:29 PM
Thatís one thing thatís always bothered me, why would these weapons give negatives to attack and damage when they are the only types available. I mean, its not like they have steel weapons to compare to or anything. Decreasing the hardness makes much more sense to me.

Hzurr
2007-03-27, 07:34 PM
You might want to give bards an ability they can use at level 1, as going through four levels before they get their first ability will be hard on anyone playing one.

Ah, I should have clarified. They still get Bardic Music, bardic knowledge, inspire courage +1, etc., and inspire competence@ 3 and suggestion @ 6, I simply bumped up when they get +2 and +3 to balance out a lack of spells


Hades +2 dex +2 cha -2 con -2 str(im looking at this, but is wisdom gonna be important for any character...or simply a dump stat?)
+4 bonus to hide/+2 bonus to hide and hide in plain sight(whichever)
Hades descendants tend to be of less physically imposing build, but have wit and smarts. Usually, drawn to rogues, they are naturally able to hide in most areas with relative ease.
favored class: rogue

While I don't have a problem with what you have, I am curious where you get the stat modifiers. I understand the hide bonuses (Wasn't Hades the one who used a helm of invisibility to sneak in and break the weapons of the Titans?), but I don't remember any stories that made him out to be physically weaker, but more charasmatic (well...except for the Disney Hercules.)


You should make up rules for competing in athletic, creative (plays poems etc.), and rhetoric games. The ancient Greeks loved competition to a fault and it does add some non-combat related encounters tat can give exp. treasure and so on. Aren't there already rules for athletic competitions in the dmg or complete warrior? I'll double check. but I will try and hammer something out for poetry competitions, (most likely relating strongly to performance checks, with some special modifiers and rules)



As far as Bronze weapons go, maybe I'll do something where eventually they start losing their edge, and take penalties to hit or to damage? This makes Profession(weaponsmith) or Prof(armorsmith) much more valuable and needed (as it was back in those times). I could also lower the hardness, so they're slightly more prone to breaking. As for the bronze/iron/steel question, I definately am not knowledgable to answer it. :smalleek:

Rama_Lei
2007-03-27, 08:20 PM
There is still magic. For one, you could make druids and rangers descended from Pan or Dryads, giving them nature connection. Also, clerics could exist with no problem.

El Jaspero, the Pirate King
2007-03-27, 08:30 PM
I dunno...seems like a call for IRON HEROES (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_IL) to the rescue!

But then again, my solution to most gaming problems is "more fury tokens" so I could be biased.

Hzurr
2007-03-27, 08:54 PM
There is still magic. For one, you could make druids and rangers descended from Pan or Dryads, giving them nature connection. Also, clerics could exist with no problem.

Yeah, I recognize that "magic" exists, but it's never in the hands of humans (with the exception of the ocational oracle). All the heroes in the area I'm talking about (Illiad/Odyssey/Aeneid) were either warriors, generals, or simply cunning statesmen and strategists. None of them had "magical powers" as seen in d&d

Woot Spitum
2007-03-27, 09:19 PM
I think it would be cool if there was some sort of system that involved sacrificing to the gods and such. If you're real devoted and reliable you get extra benefits. If you neglect it, you get smitten. It would really kinda give that whole mythological feel to the campaign, in my opinion.

Rpheonix
2007-03-27, 11:59 PM
Wow. I like that so many people have responded. When Hzurr first told me about this, I was pretty excited about it, too. Here are some of my thoughts:

Athena: Doesn't have to be negative to strength, but she really did focus on skill over brawn. I liked the Weapon focus aspect. Maybe a minus to Con?

Hades: I am assuming the breaking weapons of Titans is from Iliad. I am a horrible person and never read it, but have never heard that story in any of my research of Greek mythology. Hades should be a bonus to INT, minus to CHA, and maybe WIS. Just a thought. He plans well, but is dumb enough to take on the wrong gods.

Bronze weapons: Why not just make it to where you have to roll a break check if you make a critical? I would say that it is like smashing a backboard in basketball. You do something so awesome you break your equipment.

Bless: Why not just say that anyone that keeps in their god's favor gets the bless spell for a few hours. Sacrifice a peacock to Zeus and get Blessed for 12 hours. Beware the anger of Hera, though!

That is all I have at the moment. I will keep thinking about it. Nice stuff so far, though.

Hzurr
2007-03-28, 11:44 AM
Hades: I am assuming the breaking weapons of Titans is from Illiad.
Actually, I got that one from wikipedia. Hades doesn't really show up in the Illiad.


Hades should be a bonus to INT, minus to CHA, and maybe WIS. Just a thought. He plans well, but is dumb enough to take on the wrong gods.
I keep on resisting adding in Hades, but enough people have suggested it now, that I guess I should... Bonus to int, penalty to cha and wis, hide bonuses, and resistance to fear and death effects (I mean, the guy is surrounded by dead souls all day. I doubt much could rattle him)



Bless: Why not just say that anyone that keeps in their god's favor gets the bless spell for a few hours. Sacrifice a peacock to Zeus and get Blessed for 12 hours.

Eh, sounds good.

Raveler1
2007-03-28, 12:08 PM
Wow, forgot to subscribe to this one. Fixed.

Ok, about where to get OGL: Ancients - you can order it from most hobby stores, or go to the mongoose publishing website (http://mongoosepublishing.com/home/detail.php?qsID=347&qsSeries=3#). I bought a PDF copy from RPGNow.com (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=9621), which is also an option, if you don't mind the hassles of electronic books.

Now, about the historical thing: I can't figure out what to call this genre - Historical D20 is what it's called over at the Wizards boards - I call it d20 Fantasy, but that brings more of a D&D flavor. It's bizzare, regardless. I'm just happy that someone else is planning a campaign in these environs. :-)

Hzurr
2007-03-28, 12:57 PM
Below is my first attempt at making the "Alchemist" class for this setting. Thoughts?

Alchemist

Bab ĺ
HD d6
Skill points 4+int
Armor prof: light armor, bucklers.
Weapon Prof: Simple weapons, shortsword, shortbow
Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Information, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Listen, Open Lock, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival

Lvl 1: Skill Focus: Craft Alchemy, Confident Brewer
Lvl 2: Fast Retrieval
Lvl 3: Master Alchemist
Lvl 4: Nature’s Ingredients, Blessing of the gods
Lvl 5: Brew Potion (lvl 1)
Lvl 6: Potent Alchemy (2x),
Lvl 7: Brew Potion (lvl 2)
Lvl 8: Quick Drinker
Lvl 9: Brew Potion (lvl 3)
Lvl 10: Potent Alchemy (3x)

Skill Focus: Craft Alchemy – As the feat. Receive a +3 bonus on all Craft(Alchemy) checks.

Confident Brewer – An Alchemist can always choose to take 10 on a Craft(Alchemy) check.

Fast Retrieval – Can retrieve a potion or alchemical item and pass it to another character as part of a move action

Master Alchemist – When determining the price to pay for crafting, the Alchemist pays only 1/6th the listed price.

Nature’s Ingredients – By making a Knowledge: Nature check equal to the Craft DC of the item you want to create, and a Survival check equal to the Craft DC +10, you can find the necessary ingredients for the creation of the item in the wild. Note: The survival check is made in secret. Failure by less than 5 means that the item was not created. Failure by more than 5 results in a flawed creation, with possibly disastrous results (DM discretion).

Blessing of the Gods - By making a DC 25 Craft: Alchemy check, the Alchemist can create Holy, or Unholy Water.

Brew Potion – By making a successful craft: Alchemy check (DC 25 for lvl 1, DC 30 for lvl 2, DC 35 for lvl 3), a level 5 or higher alchemist can create a magical potion or oil of the indicated level. (See potions section in the DMG)

Potent Alchemy - Upon reaching level 6, a Master Alchemist’s creations are more potent than normal. On all non-magical creations (excluding poisons), a Master Alchemist may increase the Craft DC by 5 to make a more powerful creation. At level 6, his creations are twice as powerful, and at level 10, the Alchemist can increase the craft check by an additional 5, to make his creations 3 times as powerful. Example: A level 7 Alchemist chooses to create a vial of “Alchemist’s Fire.” By raising the craft DC by 5 (DC 25), the Alchemist’s fire does 2d6 damage (as opposed to the normal 1d6). Sunrods would shine twice as brightly, tanglefoot bags would cover more area, etc.

Quick Drinker – The Alchemist can drink a potion or apply an oil as a move action.

Woot Spitum
2007-03-28, 05:57 PM
I can't believe I didn't think of this before, but visits to the Oracle at Delphi would make the game really interesting. Cryptic utterances that cannot be prevented...so cool.

Hzurr
2007-03-28, 07:07 PM
I can't believe I didn't think of this before, but visits to the Oracle at Delphi would make the game really interesting. Cryptic utterances that cannot be prevented...so cool.

Shh! You're giving away my campaign!

Woot Spitum
2007-03-28, 11:51 PM
Shh! You're giving away my campaign!

Sorry.:smallfrown: I've been in a pro-ancient Greece mode ever since I got Titan Quest over spring break. I had a few ideas rolling around in my head before this thread came up, but I haven't really been able to come up with a way that they would be balanced. Sadly, Diablo-style abilities just don't translate as well into D&D.

Matthew
2007-04-02, 07:52 PM
Are you going to make it possible for the Long Spear and Heavy Shield to be used together or are you going to keep more to the pre Hoplite 'Mythological' period? Are Humans the only Race in the Campaign Setting or the only ones available to the Player Characters? [i.e. will there be Orcs in the wilderness and such?]

Caledonian
2007-04-02, 08:14 PM
You may find the following link helpful: it discusses military tactics of the Spartans vs. the Romans, the superiority of Greek weapons being the decisive advantage for Alexander, and the superiority of Roman weapons over Greek being relevant to their eventual victory, and so on.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=201035

It seems the Greek formations were unstoppable, but also difficult to turn. Legionnaires could simply sidestep the advance, then attack the relatively unprotected sides of the warriors.

henebry
2007-04-03, 05:17 PM
Besides the Alchemist, it seems to me you might want to include as a Core class an artificer of some kind (along the lines of the mythical Daedalus). I'm thinking something along the lines of the PrC in the Complete Arcane.

Raveler1
2007-04-04, 06:54 PM
Artificers? You might also want to check out this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2063844&postcount=18) variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2063876&postcount=19), (two posts) which I'm using in my campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33457)

Oh, and here's an example of how the artifice rules work (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2080279&postcount=20) - it's a bit out of date, but it still gives a good overview.