Becoming a Lich ?! (P.E.A.C.H)

[nonsi]

I've been searching for the ritual of becoming a Lich for quite some time now and I always come up empty.


MM1 details the phylactery (120000gp + 4800xp), which is "a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed", but not exactly what's transcribed on the parchment.


I looked up the BoVD and found it has nothing on Lich transformation (barely anything on liches at all).


I've encountered a suggestion that since "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil", then it probably should involve things as torturing babies to death (seems unrelated), turning a paladin into an intelligent undead (not clear how this is supposed to have anything to do with the transformation), eating the heart of a white unicorn (seems "unspeakably evil" enough… maybe the heart of a unicorn that has been corrupted somehow(???)), summoning a celestial for the express purpose of slaying it (could be a start), and the like.

This seems like a step in the right direction, but it needs more meat on them bones.


DarkSun 3e book "Terrors of the Dead Lands" has a very detailed ritual for becoming a Kaisharga (the DS alternative of Lich, but not exactly) of eating a poisonous fruit while a gate to this negative plane called "The Gray" is opened for drawing negative energy, but a Kaisharga is not a lich.
Regardless, deliberate self-poisoning and drawing powerful negative energies via a gate seems appropriate, but instead of a poisonous fruit, seems more fitting that the poison should come from an already undead source.

Going back to BECMI D&D, Gazetteer 3 "The Principalities of Glantri" stated that the prime components for becoming a lich are a pint of venom from a nightcrawler’s tail stinger and the skull of a red imp, but that's all they gave. Nothing about the ritual itself, secondary components, spells etc.
The nightcrawler's venom does seem appropriate, but a resident of LE-aligned planes doesn't seem to fit into the process.


Feels to me like it should involve some major celestial event (e.g. the eclipse of a full moon / winter solstice), where the night is at its maximum strength, and maybe being slain during the ritual by a friend turned enemy (after witnessing your act of "unspeakably evil")


It could also be a 2-phase ritual, where in phase-I you die and turn to ash while your soul inhabits another - newly killed - dead person's body in a Ghoul-like or Wight-like state, while phase-II involves final preparation steps of the phylactery and then consuming the ashes of your destroyed body, turning into a lich upon completion.




This just about sums up everything I managed to collent.

And then there's the Arch Lich (White Lich, one might say), which doesn't fit into any of the above.




So, any thoughts?
Any other suggestions?
Anyone seen other detailed proposals on the web?






[EDIT:]




Ok, I think I have something here.

I was looking for a ritual that would:
1. be achievable by 11th level (duh).
2. definitely count as "unspeakably evil".
3. be applicable only once every few months or years.
4. require an elaborate and methodical planning.
5. be dangerous, but less dangerous with character power increase.
6. be very detailed, cinematic and actually feel reliable for such transformation.
7. have the required twist for creating an Archlich.


I believe I got all the above covered, so here it is.............



 

Attain Lichdom
Necromancy (Evil, but see below)
Level: C 6, S/W 6
Components: V, S, F (and see below)
Casting Time: standard action
Range: touch (see below)
Area of Effect: 40' radius (see below)
Target: you (see below)
Duration: full moon's eclipse (see below)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This elaborate spell is used for conducting a ritual to transform the caster into a Lich.
The process is unquestionably evil (but see below), elaborate and dangerous.
The spell must by written with the caster's blood and must be cast during the eclipse of a full moon.
The ritual is to be conducted within the area of an Unhallow spell effect, and must be completed before the moon is fully revealed.
During the ritual, you may not have any other active spell effects or magical items on your person or the phylactery, because the ritual's energies require a delicate and precise balance. Failure to comply with this constraint means certain failure of the ritual of Lich transformation.


Ritual Requirements:
Skills: Craft (leatherworking, metalworker, jewelry) 4 ranks each, Knowledge (arcana, religion) 7 ranks each, and Profession (astrologer) 5 ranks.
Spells: Chill Blood (see below), Create Undead, Disintegrate, Enervation, Magic Jar, Permanency, Power Leech (BoVD, p.101), Slay Living.
Materials: A Concoction of Death (see below).
Items: The phylactery of the would-be-lich, The skull of an outsider with the Evil subtype (e.g. Imp)
Without the above requirements, one hasn't a prayer of successfully attaining lichdom. The involvement of any of the above that does not fulfill the requirements results in automatic failure.


The process:
• Use Power Leech to drain a victim of your race of 2 points of Int/Wis/Cha - each.
• Possess that victim of your race via Magic Jar.
• From within your victim's body, cast Attain Lichdom on your inert body. The phylactery must be placed on your chest, just above your heart. This targets both your body and the phylactery.
• Cast Create Undead on your inert body, turning it into a Ghoul, but with a twist: you must place a 1000gp onyx in your mouth and a 500gp amber on each of your eyes. The energies of Attain Lichdom allow for this to happen and preserve the bond between your soul and your transformed body. From here on, if the spell ends prematurely, or ends without completion, the phylactery disintegrates and you become a Ghoul under the DM's control (at DM's discretion, you retain control and devote your very being to repeat the process one day, skipping the casting of Create Undead (you're already a ghoul)).
• Return to your own (now transformed) body, ending Magic Jar (you'd probably want to render the victim immobile beforehand). You retain all your pre-transformation traits, but your type is now Undead and you possess the Ghoul's natural attacks and paralyisis powers.
• Render the victim paralyzed via your newly acquired paralyzing attack(s).
• Render the victim Frightened/Panicked/Cowering via a spell or innate ability (the victim's fear is a vital component in Lich transformation and power).
• Successfully cast Disintegrate on the victim: the victim must be awake and trembling with fear when this happens and must be killed by the spell (retries are allowed).
• Burn the spell written with your blood on top of the victim's remains.
• Consume the ashes. At this point, the victim is forever lost, and may only be restored if you're permanently destroyed.
• Drink the Concoction of Death – using the Evil outsider's skull as the cup from which you drink (reminder: this will not kill you, because you're now physically a ghoul).
• You must then be slain before the spell's duration expires – and it must come from the hand of someone you've betrayed after the last time s/he had rested (the burning hatred of betrayal is the final ingredient). When this is done, your body disintegrates into nothingness and your soul and the phylactery are fused and bounded by powerful arcane forces. You reform 1d10 days later as a lich. This final transformation is mentally traumatic and requires a Will save vs. DC 20. If you fail, you develop a permanent insanity chosen from the table below (roll a d10 to learn the outcome). This insanity is an integral part of the lich's personality and cannot be cured by any means short of the lich's destruction and resurrection, followed by Greater restoration, miracle, or wish.


D10 Result Effect
================================================== =======
1 Character shows physical hysterics or emotional outburst (laughing, crying, and so on).
2 Character has hallucinations or delusions (details at the discretion of the GM).
3 Character gripped with echopraxia or echolalia (saying or doing whatever those nearby say or do).
4 Character gripped with strange or deviant eating desire (dirt, slime, cannibalism, and so on).
5 Character performs compulsive rituals (washing hands constantly, praying, walking in a particular rhythm, never stepping on cracks, constantly checking to see if crossbow is loaded, and so on).
6 Character becomes paranoid.
7 Character gripped with severe phobia (refuses to approach object of phobia except on successful DC 20 Will save).
8 Character develops an attachment to a “lucky charm” (embraces object, type of object, or person as a safety blanket) and cannot function without it.
9 Mood (manic/depressive)
10 Roll d10 twice until you get 2 different results, disregarding additional rolls of 10



Note: From the casting of Attain Lichdom and until its completion, you (body & soul), the phylactery, the victim (body & soul) and all the spell's ingrediants, cannot drift outside the area of Unhallow, otherwise the spell fails.



The phylactery:
The phylactery is usually a small, highly crafted, boxlike metal amulet (usually made out of Mithral or adamantine, but stainless steel or aluminum could also be used).
Its interior walls are lined with refined iron, with the inner space divided into compartments with leather.
Both the phylactery's interior and exterior walls are carved with arcane symbols of power and the caster's personal sigil, and those grooves are filled with pure silver mixed with diamond dust (interior), and lead mixed with onyx dust (exterior). The compartments are used to house strips of parchments containing religious necromantic text. Should the DM wish to actually illustrate them for the players, he or she should feel free to create unique designs to fit the campaign. The caster's personal sigil is a mystical sign of personal significance, and identifying it may convey great power over a lich.
The vessel that becomes a lich's phylactery must be of excellent craftsmanship, requiring an investment of no less than 95,000gp, with more money needed for custom-shaped amulets.

The proper creation of the phylactery requires meticulous crafting and attention to details. You must make successful Craft (metalworking/leatherworking/jewelry) checks vs. DC 10 each, and successful Knowledge (arcana/religion) checks vs. DC 15 each.
If the crafting of the phylactery is not perfect, you'll need to invest 1/2 the time and cost to repair it, using the same skill checks. Without your phylactery being of perfect craftsmanship, your inert body doesn't transform into its desired ghoul-like state (see above) and the ritual fails.

The caster understandably has no desire for anyone to learn what ritual is being undertaken, or the appearance of the arcane symbols and etchings he must use.
Thus, the mage alone will melt and forge those precious metals, as well as learn whatever other crafting skills are necessary to design and construct the phylactery.
Though normally the phylactery is a box, it can be fashioned into virtually any item, provided that it has an interior space in which the lich can carve certain small magical designs and house the parchments.

Once the box is fully crafted, the following spells must be cast into it: Disintegrate, Magic Jar and Create Undead – in that order.
Optionally, Nondetection can be added to the list of spells, which most liches obviously choose to add.
Then you must cast Permanency multiple times on the phylactery, targeting all spells noted above (separately).
When all of these spells have been cast, the amulet is suitable for use as a phylactery, but only by the specific caster who crafted it.

The phylactery's durability stems, among other things, from the magical energies that are involved in its creation and functionality.
Antimagic renders a lich's phylactery inert, but does not sever the bond.
Targeted Disjunction destroys the phylactery, but a lich may prepare a new one and cast the spell on himself (which requires another copy of the spell, written in his blood) and bond with it, with no further need to sacrifice another victim's life.
If a lich is slain while having no phylactery, it is permanently destroyed.
A lich cannot have more than one phylactery at any given time.



The Concoction of Death:
A concoction of death is a brew so charged with negative energy it annihilates life upon contact, unless a successful Fort save vs. DC 27 is made. Ingesting the potion means instant death with no save, unless the imbiber is immune to all forms of poison. (Reminder: without possessing Poison Use special ability, there's 5% chance of self-poisoning when preparing the potion)
It is this potion that the caster must drink in the process of ending his current existence and make the transformation into unlife.
One mistake in the preparation of this lethal concoction will bring only death to the practitioner when the time arrives for his passage to lichdom.
The concoction of this potion takes uninterrupted 72 hours to complete.
The concoction of death is made of the following ingredients:
- A pint of venom from a nightcrawler’s tail stinger.
- Dark reaver powder – 1 dose.
- A dried powdered heart of a Barghest killed by slay living while being affected by enervation.
- 13 drops of the caster's blood.
- 13 doses of Agony potion (a potion that is generated via Liquid Pain spell), prepared by the caster himself.
- A straight crystalline rod of Cobalite/Arsenopyrite is used for carefully stirring the ingredients. (cobalite is a 45% arsenic gemstone, Arsenopyrite is 46%). By the time the potion's preparation is done, the rod is fully dissolved into the mix.

The preparation of the potion involves repeated casting of chill blood spell (Encyclopedia Arcana: Necromancy - Beyond the Grave, p.22) and is accompanied by arcane and divine chanting.
When preparing the potion, the DM makes two ability checks for you – one for Int and one for Wis (d20 + ability-mod) – both vs. DC 12.
If you pass one of them, it means that you either made no preparation errors or managed to find and correct preparation errors beforehand and the preparation of the potion is successful. If both fail, you will not bond with the phylactery when slain.
If you fail but succeed on one of your checks vs. DC 10, then you have discovered an unworkable mistake and you know that the preparation of the potion has failed, otherwise you are not informed if the potion works or not.




Archlich: (LM, p.156)
On extremely rare occasions, one wishes to gain immortality for purely altruistic reasons.
In such cases, the caster must be LG and the spell loses its Evil descriptor. However..........
1. The would-be-ArchLich must possess the feat See No Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?209871-Feat-See-no-Evil-3-x) before starting the quest for ArchLichdom, and cannot research any of the "Evil"-tagged ritual spells on his own (must be purchased or found).
2. The caster has to target himself when using Liquid Pain to collect the potion of Agony – a process that takes 3 times as long per dose, plus 1 day recovery in between (no less than 51 days for 13 doses of Liquid Pain).
3. The ritual is to be conducted in an area affected by "Hallow" spell effect. While this seems highly inappropriate, the caster's alignment and all the above modifications makes this bizarre combination the right one for the creation of an Archlich.
4. The victim of the ritual must willingly volunteer.
5. The altered arcane energies of the Archlich ritual physically transform the caster's body into a deathless ghoul (though this is mostly fluff, since this stage lasts but minutes).
6. The skull of an outsider with the Good subtype is required, and you cannot be in any way involved in its demise.
7. Instead of "the burning hatred of betrayal", the spell's final ingredient is the grief of loss from the caster to the victim that had altruistically sacrificed his/her life, as well as the grief of the caster's slayer over the caster's and the victim's fate.





Note: The rules governing Lich Transformation are not immutable.
A DM can create a wonderful adventure around the process by a would-be lich.
The necessity of fine craftsmanship, the ritual casting of powerful spells, the occurrence of a rare astronomical event, and many other factors might come into play in the completion of the phylactery, the concoction and the ritual.
The DM is encouraged to customize whatever s/he finds inappropriate.

[DoomHat]

In "Legend of the Burning Sands" the process of becoming a Khadi (in all ways a Lich) is fairly straightforward and horrific.

Ritually prepare yourself and a living victim, have a necromancer friend you can "trust" cut out your heart. Have them implant your heart into the still living victim.

Your dark magic corrupted heart will slowly kill the victim over the course of an hour. At the end of that hour the victim will have become a mindless ghoul, and your own heart will be beating again. Your heart is now a phylactery. Nothing can hurt you in any meaningful way until someone can find and destroy it.

You'll need to repeat the ritual with a fresh victim once a month until the end of time. Thankfully you can take care of the process yourself unaided from now on.

[BWR]

The old lich ritual from Wizard's Spell Compendium vol 4 (so the actual ritual is from another source, from any edition up to and including 2e).

Basic research cost: 100 000 gp
Level: 18+

Spells needed: Nulathoe's ninemen, magic jar, enchant an item, trap the soul.

Must create a potion with: 2 drops pure arsenic distillate, 2 drops pure belladonna distillate, 1 quart blood from a pegasus foal killed by wyvern venom, intact heart from a humanoid killed by arsenic and belladonna, reproductive glands from 10 giant moths killed within 10 days of the potion's creation, 1 pint of phase spider venom no more than 30 days old,1 point of wyvern venom no more than 60 days old.
Potion must be drunk by the light of a full moon. Roll on the following table to determine effects.
1-10 all body hair falls out but potion is ineffective
11- 40 fall into coma for 1d6+1 days, but potion works
41-70 potion works but you are feebleminded, with a 20% chance of death if condition is removed
71-90 potion works but you are paralyzed for 2d6+2 days and have 30% chance of loss of 1d6 Dexterity
91-96 potion works but one sense or speech is lost, recoverable only by Limited Wish or Wish
97-00 you die. Potion fails

Once the potion is a success (and you always know if you've succeeded), you still live but can now begin crafting the phylactery

Must create a phylactery (no set cost). Phylactery must be continually handled and shaped over the course of nine days after being target with Enchant an Item. Then Trap the Soul is cast with 50%+6/level over 11 chance of success. The you must cast Nulathoe's Ninemen, then Magic Jar. You lose one level which empowers the phylactery. Additionally, you lose the top three levels of spells known until you have rested 1d6+1 days. You are now a lichnee. The next time you die your spirit ends up in the phylactery. If your corpse or similar (e.g. a slain clone) is within 90 feet of the phylactery the corpse must make a ST vs. spell at -10 penalty. If it fails, you have entered your own body and are now fully a lich. If the only available corpses are not your own, they get an ST - less than 3HD when alive is a 0th level Fighter's save, 3+1 HD save as though alive. The possessed corpse must then be used to find your original body - without possessing your original body you cannot become a lich.

[JoshuaZ]

In my last campaign, the method for making a lich varied from spellcaster to spellcaster. Everyone's magic is unique and they must figure out a version of the ritual that works for themselves. Seeing other versions may help but one would still need to adjust or modify it for one's self. This was essentially done as an excuse to let players make up whatever they thought would be cool in context (with DM approval).

[Amechra]

The old lich ritual from Wizard's Spell Compendium vol 4 (so the actual ritual is from another source, from any edition up to and including 2e).

Basic research cost: 100 000 gp
Level: 18+

Spells needed: Nulathoe's ninemen, magic jar, enchant an item, trap the soul.

Must create a potion with: 2 drops pure arsenic distillate, 2 drops pure belladonna distillate, 1 quart blood from a pegasus foal killed by wyvern venom, intact heart from a humanoid killed by arsenic and belladonna, reproductive glands from 10 giant moths killed within 10 days of the potion's creation, 1 pint of phase spider venom no more than 30 days old,1 point of wyvern venom no more than 60 days old.
Potion must be drunk by the light of a full moon. Roll on the following table to determine effects.
1-10 all body hair falls out but potion is ineffective
11- 40 fall into coma for 1d6+1 days, but potion works
41-70 potion works but you are feebleminded, with a 20% chance of death if condition is removed
71-90 potion works but you are paralyzed for 2d6+2 days and have 30% chance of loss of 1d6 Dexterity
91-96 potion works but one sense or speech is lost, recoverable only by Limited Wish or Wish
97-00 you die. Potion fails

Once the potion is a success (and you always know if you've succeeded), you still live but can now begin crafting the phylactery

Must create a phylactery (no set cost). Phylactery must be continually handled and shaped over the course of nine days after being target with Enchant an Item. Then Trap the Soul is cast with 50%+6/level over 11 chance of success. The you must cast Nulathoe's Ninemen, then Magic Jar. You lose one level which empowers the phylactery. Additionally, you lose the top three levels of spells known until you have rested 1d6+1 days. You are now a lichnee. The next time you die your spirit ends up in the phylactery. If your corpse or similar (e.g. a slain clone) is within 90 feet of the phylactery the corpse must make a ST vs. spell at -10 penalty. If it fails, you have entered your own body and are now fully a lich. If the only available corpses are not your own, they get an ST - less than 3HD when alive is a 0th level Fighter's save, 3+1 HD save as though alive. The possessed corpse must then be used to find your original body - without possessing your original body you cannot become a lich.

Aww, I was going to post that!

[BWR]

Aww, I was going to post that!

Neener neener, beat ya to it.

[Totema]

...1 quart blood from a pegasus foal killed by wyvern venom...

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2132mte.jpg

[BWR]

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2132mte.jpg

I suddenly approve of liches in a way I never have before.

[nonsi]

In "Legend of the Burning Sands" the process of becoming a Khadi (in all ways a Lich) is fairly straightforward and horrific.

Ritually prepare yourself and a living victim, have a necromancer friend you can "trust" cut out your heart. Have them implant your heart into the still living victim.

Your dark magic corrupted heart will slowly kill the victim over the course of an hour. At the end of that hour the victim will have become a mindless ghoul, and your own heart will be beating again. Your heart is now a phylactery. Nothing can hurt you in any meaningful way until someone can find and destroy it.

You'll need to repeat the ritual with a fresh victim once a month until the end of time. Thankfully you can take care of the process yourself unaided from now on.

Nice, but in no way does Khadi measure up to Lich.

[Extra Anchovies]

If we're homebrewing solutions, why not make it:

1. Eat a puppy. Yes, a live one. This one (http://www.clickerzoneuk.co.uk/cz/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/PuppySmall.jpg), in fact. While your friends and family are watching.

Done. You are now a Lich. Congratulations, you monster.

[DoomHat]

Nice, but in no way does Khadi measure up to Lich.

Oh? How so?
If anything, it insures that anyone willing to become and remain a Khadi is a moral monster. They don't lose out on all the better benefits of having lifelike flesh, such as food, drugs, and bedroom company. They don't strictly have to be epiclly powerful magicians, but they almost certainly are anyway, or at least are the minion of one.

Best/worse of all, by definition they have to be active blights on the world. A normal lich can just sequester themselves away in some distant tower, conducting experiments or writing a comprehensive history of the world. A normal lich, no matter how vile the ritual, doesn't necessarily have to be all that ambitious. They could just as easily have once been motivated by an overwhelming fear of their own mortality.

At bare minimum, a Khadi has to become a slasher movie villain. An unstoppable Jason Voorhees type, plaguing a small community, turning their citizens into terrifying murderous revenants one at a time. A party of heroes might come in to try and stop it, but no matter how many times they put him down, each time at great cost and difficulty, he keeps getting right back up.

Though more often then not a khadi will prefer to conquer a community. Force them to offer up sacrifices in appeasement to their eternal reign, as enforced by an ever growing number of zombie soldiers created as a mere happy side effect of simply maintaining themselves.

[nonsi]

The old lich ritual from Wizard's Spell Compendium vol 4 (so the actual ritual is from another source, from any edition up to and including 2e).

Basic research cost: 100 000 gp
Level: 18+

Spells needed: Nulathoe's ninemen, magic jar, enchant an item, trap the soul.

Must create a potion with: 2 drops pure arsenic distillate, 2 drops pure belladonna distillate, 1 quart blood from a pegasus foal killed by wyvern venom, intact heart from a humanoid killed by arsenic and belladonna, reproductive glands from 10 giant moths killed within 10 days of the potion's creation, 1 pint of phase spider venom no more than 30 days old,1 point of wyvern venom no more than 60 days old.
Potion must be drunk by the light of a full moon. Roll on the following table to determine effects.
1-10 all body hair falls out but potion is ineffective
11- 40 fall into coma for 1d6+1 days, but potion works
41-70 potion works but you are feebleminded, with a 20% chance of death if condition is removed
71-90 potion works but you are paralyzed for 2d6+2 days and have 30% chance of loss of 1d6 Dexterity
91-96 potion works but one sense or speech is lost, recoverable only by Limited Wish or Wish
97-00 you die. Potion fails

Once the potion is a success (and you always know if you've succeeded), you still live but can now begin crafting the phylactery

Must create a phylactery (no set cost). Phylactery must be continually handled and shaped over the course of nine days after being target with Enchant an Item. Then Trap the Soul is cast with 50%+6/level over 11 chance of success. The you must cast Nulathoe's Ninemen, then Magic Jar. You lose one level which empowers the phylactery. Additionally, you lose the top three levels of spells known until you have rested 1d6+1 days. You are now a lichnee. The next time you die your spirit ends up in the phylactery. If your corpse or similar (e.g. a slain clone) is within 90 feet of the phylactery the corpse must make a ST vs. spell at -10 penalty. If it fails, you have entered your own body and are now fully a lich. If the only available corpses are not your own, they get an ST - less than 3HD when alive is a 0th level Fighter's save, 3+1 HD save as though alive. The possessed corpse must then be used to find your original body - without possessing your original body you cannot become a lich.

There are several problems with this solution:
1. Level 18 is not 3.5e compatible.
2. I don't see any relation between bio-poisons and becoming undead. At least in BD&D Gaz3, they attributed it to corruption of the radiance.
3. The Lich template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) does not indicate chances for reduced Dex.
4. The Lich-candidate's personal power has no bearings on chances for success. I don't see it appropriate for the quest for lichdom to be purely luck-based.

The other part of becoming a lichnee and having to complete the process does sound appropriate though.

[nonsi]

Oh? How so?
If anything, it insures that anyone willing to become and remain a Khadi is a moral monster. They don't lose out on all the better benefits of having lifelike flesh, such as food, drugs, and bedroom company. They don't strictly have to be epiclly powerful magicians, but they almost certainly are anyway, or at least are the minion of one.

Best/worse of all, by definition they have to be active blights on the world. A normal lich can just sequester themselves away in some distant tower, conducting experiments or writing a comprehensive history of the world. A normal lich, no matter how vile the ritual, doesn't necessarily have to be all that ambitious. They could just as easily have once been motivated by an overwhelming fear of their own mortality.

At bare minimum, a Khadi has to become a slasher movie villain. An unstoppable Jason Voorhees type, plaguing a small community, turning their citizens into terrifying murderous revenants one at a time. A party of heroes might come in to try and stop it, but no matter how many times they put him down, each time at great cost and difficulty, he keeps getting right back up.

Though more often then not a khadi will prefer to conquer a community. Force them to offer up sacrifices in appeasement to their eternal reign, as enforced by an ever growing number of zombie soldiers created as a mere happy side effect of simply maintaining themselves.

Ok, the Khadi won the Evil Meter competition.
But who really wants to become immortal just to depend on others for the rest of eternity? (even if it's not all that difficult)
And always having to maintain the strategy of hunting and not being sought up for termination is a lot of paperwork.

[nonsi]

If we're homebrewing solutions, why not make it:

1. Eat a puppy. Yes, a live one. This one (http://www.clickerzoneuk.co.uk/cz/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/PuppySmall.jpg), in fact. While your friends and family are watching.

Done. You are now a Lich. Congratulations, you monster.

Thever though about it from this angle :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[nonsi]

In my last campaign, the method for making a lich varied from spellcaster to spellcaster. Everyone's magic is unique and they must figure out a version of the ritual that works for themselves. Seeing other versions may help but one would still need to adjust or modify it for one's self. This was essentially done as an excuse to let players make up whatever they thought would be cool in context (with DM approval).

Whatever works for you, but since the template has fixed benefits & drawbacks, I want it to also have a fixed formula.

[MrNobody]

A more detailed way to become a lich is given, in D&D 3.5, in Draconomicon pp. 120 and 146. The described method is used by dragons that wants to become Dracoliches.
Since there are little difference between regular undeads and draconic undeads described in that book (they often are simple adaptation of the regular undead archetype) i think that the ritual should be suitable also for humanoid (or other type) liches.

First thing, the would-be lich crafts the Phylactery. Second, it crafts the Lich-brew, a powerful poisons that deals poison damage to other creatures but slay with no save the creature it is brewed for.
Third, the would-be lich drinks the poison, it dies, the soul goes to the Phylactery and than back to animate the dead body, becoming a lich.

[nonsi]

A more detailed way to become a lich is given, in D&D 3.5, in Draconomicon pp. 120 and 146. The described method is used by dragons that wants to become Dracoliches.
Since there are little difference between regular undeads and draconic undeads described in that book (they often are simple adaptation of the regular undead archetype) i think that the ritual should be suitable also for humanoid (or other type) liches.


Thanks. I've been wondering for the longest time why I've never encountered the Dracolich in 3e before.





First thing, the would-be lich crafts the Phylactery. Second, it crafts the Lich-brew, a powerful poisons that deals poison damage to other creatures but slay with no save the creature it is brewed for.
Third, the would-be lich drinks the poison, it dies, the soul goes to the Phylactery and than back to animate the dead body, becoming a lich.


Read it. Didn't like it.
Reasons:
1. There's a lich for everyone and then there's a lich specifically designed for dragons.
2. This is just too easy. It meas that a lot of evil dragons are to be transformed into Dracolich. I mean, there are other ways if gaining power that don't involve relying of aging.
3. It's more powerful for the first few battles, but when you get slain (and eventually it will happen), you're shafted bigtime no matter what.

Nevertheless, in some bizarre and unrelated way, the whole "deals poison damage to other creatures but slay with no save the creature it is brewed for" has started something and I'm suddenly feeling inspired.
I believe I'll have something solid sometime tomorrow.

[Extra Anchovies]

Read it. Didn't like it.
Reasons:
1. There's a lich for everyone and then there's a lich specifically designed for dragons.
2. This is just too easy. It meas that a lot of evil dragons are to be transformed into Dracolich. I mean, there are other ways if gaining power that don't involve relying of aging.
3. It's more powerful for the first few battles, but when you get slain (and eventually it will happen), you're shafted bigtime no matter what.

Nevertheless, in some bizarre and unrelated way, the whole "deals poison damage to other creatures but slay with no save the creature it is brewed for" has started something and I'm suddenly feeling inspired.
I believe I'll have something solid sometime tomorrow.

I could've sworn that I've encountered the term "lich-brew" before in context of creating humanoid liches, but all googles turns up is breweries in Lichtenstein :smallsigh:

[nonsi]

.
Ok, I have something (see the OP) and it's time to see what you people think of it.


Be brutal.

[MrNobody]

I looked at your spell and it looks... good! Really, is complex, flavourful and really detailed!

Just a few notes.
1) The cost of the Phylactery:you want lichdom to be attainable at 11th level but the phylactery alone costs twice the standard wealth by level for a 11th level character. It seems a little too much.
2) The other components: Phylactery aside, none of the other items and materials have a price, which means (i believe) that a caster with the Eschew Materials feat could get rid of them, making most of the ritual useless.
3) You say:

• You must then be slain before the spell's duration expires – and it must come from the hand of someone you've betrayed after the last time s/he had rested (the burning hatred of betrayal is the final ingredient). When this is done, your body disintegrates into nothingness and you have to make a successful Fort save and a successful Will save – both vs. DC 20 and both are Cha-based. Failure on either saves means destruction. Success on both saves means that your soul and the phylactery are fused and bounded by powerful arcane forces, and you appear 1d10 days later as a lich.

Note: From the casting of Attain Lichdom and until its completion, the phylactery and the victim cannot drift more than 20' away from your body or your soul, otherwise the spell fails.

So you must have the person that hate you most kill you during the ritual, and in the same time the Phylactery cannot leave you.
You die. The person that hates you most is now ALONE with your phylactery and you have no mean to stop him destroying it because you reform after 1d10 days. This could transform this spell in the most complex suicide move in history.

Also, what does it happen if you pass only one of the two saves?

Hope it helped!:smallsmile:

[nonsi]

1) The cost of the Phylactery:you want lichdom to be attainable at 11th level but the phylactery alone costs twice the standard wealth by level for a 11th level character. It seems a little too much.


Hmm, good point.
I was trying to keep consistent with core.
So, how much would be a reasonable price for both 11th level and 20th?





2) The other components: Phylactery aside, none of the other items and materials have a price, which means (i believe) that a caster with the Eschew Materials feat could get rid of them, making most of the ritual useless.


Ok.
Notice that the ingredients are not used up until way after the spell has been cast (casting time = standard action).
They're part if the ritual, not the casting itself, so there's nothing really to eschew. And even if they were, I'm not aware that you can eschew partially. I don't think it should or is intended to work this way.
Maybe I should remove "Material" from the spell components.





3) You say:
So you must have the person that hate you most kill you during the ritual, and in the same time the Phylactery cannot leave you.
You die. The person that hates you most is now ALONE with your phylactery and you have no mean to stop him destroying it because you reform after 1d10 days. This could transform this spell in the most complex suicide move in history.


I did say "would require an elaborate and methodical planning".
This could involve any number of solutions:
1. using an illusion to make him think the phylactery was disintegrated.
2. dropping the phylactery to a lower chamber
3. burry the phylactery in granite with unnoticeable vent holes.
4. holding him captive with your inert body out of sight, so he's not even aware of the existence of the phylactery.
5. having an undead minion lurking out of sight or invisible
And that's really of the top of my head.
If you're smart enough to have a chance in hell of actually becoming a lich, then you're probably smart enough to take the necessary precautions.





Also, what does it happen if you pass only one of the two saves?


I was thinking that the ritual has failed and you're dead.
If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.

[MrNobody]

Talking about the cost, maybe you could try to stay halfway, maybe around 95.000 gp: it's high for and 11th level but not that much, and it's a decent pricing even for a 20th level.

For the ingredients, i know, it's not immediate that the feat and the spell should work in that way, but the world is full of powerplayers looking for miswordings... it's always better to be as clear as possible! :smallbiggrin:

Phylactery: good point, i was thinking too little. A 11th or higher caster must have enough Intelligence to think about this events and prevent them. And, if not, it's not worth being a lich!!

The saves: maybe a lesser form of undeadth You could put the disintegration of the body after the saves.
Saves Fort but fails Will: the body survives but the mind is shattered. You become a mindless zombie.
Saves Will but fails Fort: the body is destroyed but the mind survives. You are a ghost/shadow/other ethereal undead.
Both controlled by the DM, of course. :smallwink:

[nonsi]

Talking about the cost, maybe you could try to stay halfway, maybe around 95.000 gp: it's high for and 11th level but not that much, and it's a decent pricing even for a 20th level.


Ok, 95K it is then.




For the ingredients, i know, it's not immediate that the feat and the spell should work in that way, but the world is full of powerplayers looking for miswordings... it's always better to be as clear as possible! :smallbiggrin:


Before I remove "Material", I'm trying to see if there are appropriate material components for such spell - in the context of it being cast via Magic Jar, binding you to an item, having an AoE and affecting an entire ritual, which already has plenty of material components.




The saves: maybe a lesser form of undeadth You could put the disintegration of the body after the saves.
Saves Fort but fails Will: the body survives but the mind is shattered. You become a mindless zombie.
Saves Will but fails Fort: the body is destroyed but the mind survives. You are a ghost/shadow/other ethereal undead.
Both controlled by the DM, of course. :smallwink:


I don't see how that matters much to the caster.
My only problem with the double save requirement is that clerics have far better survival chances than arcanists



Other thoughts:

I'm considering requiring Unhallow to prepare the area for the ritual.
While this seems to fit perfectly with the spirit of things when creating a lich (which would increase the AoE from 20' radius to 40' radius - I'm fine with that), I'm not sure how this mixes up with the creation of an archlich.
I mean, Hallow for creating a negatively-powered template? (though an archlich is already an oxymoron in and on itself, so maybe).

I think that thematically speaking, the content of the phylactery should remain vague, or at least different (now that I think of it, placing the spells in it doesn't seem to make much sense).

At current, I have nothing in the ingredients or the ritual to represent the lich's fear aura.
How about if the victim to be disintegrated has to be awake and aware of its immanent fate?

[EDIT:]
Any ideas for Lich template to noncasters?

[nonsi]

.
Ok. I have enriched the descriptions and made a few modifications.
I also abandoned the notion of noncaster lich. This template is not meant for minions and no caster would ever share its secrets or grant the transformation to others.

I now feel like the description of the process for attaining lichdom is almost complete.
I'm just still not sure if the spell should have material components or not, and if so, then what they should be.
Well, that and clerics having far better survival chances than arcanists. This really doesn't sit well with me, so I was thinking of making it just Will save with failure resulting in a permanent insanity that's forever part of the lich's personality (I could devise some kind of appropriate table).

[toapat]

Since there are little difference between regular undeads and draconic undeads described in that book (they often are simple adaptation of the regular undead archetype) i think that the ritual should be suitable also for humanoid (or other type) liches.

A dracolich can only be killed by Trap the Soul or Sanctify the Wicked (luckily both work on dracoliches post-post-mortum) because they have no phylactery. They cling to their dead body until another dragon drops dead within 10 miles of them. hop in the corpse, and begin winning again.

@ Nonsi:

Personally, for the poison, i always liked the idea that you needed Nightshade Extract, but specifically Nightshade Extract made using Blue Dawn flowers. Either way i feel that the ritual is currently interesting, but lacking in elegance.

also, it should be a corrupt spell 6, with paladin, ranger, and Spellthief having it as a 4th (and basically anyone else who gets only upto 4ths, although i only know of 3 base classes that get 4s only). Technically anyone can lich if they have CL11, paladins just typically fall from such and cant prepare corrupt spells.

Arch-lich is actually completely different then lich though. Arch-Liches happen basically as a result of needing to Terminate something. the template actually applies the deathless type in later printings, and is never mentioned about how to go about turning into an archlich anywhere. just that they happen. At some point.

[nonsi]

Personally, for the poison, i always liked the idea that you needed Nightshade Extract, but specifically Nightshade Extract made using Blue Dawn flowers.


Your preference - fair enough.
I was looking to incorporate already undead elements into the ritual, and currently, the only undead poison I know of is from Nightcrawler.
I just can't put a specific biological poison and the search for immortality via undeath into the same context.
Also, I wanted the ritual to contain elements to represent as many of the lich's powers and abilities as possible, in some way or another. I think I covered most if not all of them.




Either way i feel that the ritual is currently interesting, but lacking in elegance.


Suggestions? (in the context of the above)




also, it should be a corrupt spell 6


If you're talking about the BoVD feat, then I'm not sure to which spell you wish to apply it.
If you're talking about something else, then it's probably something I'm not familiar with at all.




, with paladin, ranger, and Spellthief having it as a 4th (and basically anyone else who gets only upto 4ths, although i only know of 3 base classes that get 4s only). Technically anyone can lich if they have CL11, paladins just typically fall from such and cant prepare corrupt spells.


As the ritual is currently detailed, there's no way partial casters could possibly attain lichdom - not with the required combination of spells (and particularly the dedicated spell itself).
I have no objection to making changes, as long as they uphold the noted 7 goals.




Arch-lich is actually completely different then lich though. Arch-Liches happen basically as a result of needing to Terminate something. the template actually applies the deathless type in later printings, and is never mentioned about how to go about turning into an archlich anywhere. just that they happen. At some point.


I don't see deathless as an appropriate step, because it's already undead (unlike the mid-ritual transformation, which turns the caster into a ghoul that isn't exactly a ghoul, and it's a transformation in the making).

[toapat]

If you're talking about the BoVD feat, then I'm not sure to which spell you wish to apply it.
If you're talking about something else, then it's probably something I'm not familiar with at all.

I don't see deathless as an appropriate step, because it's already undead (unlike the mid-ritual transformation, which turns the caster into a ghoul that isn't exactly a ghoul, and it's a transformation in the making).

Corrupt spells are the evil equivalent of Santified spells. They can be prepared by anyone in a lvl X slot. The half casters can all RAW become liches if they take practiced spellcaster as it is by lvl 14.

As i said, Arch-Lich isnt actually the same thing, its a deathless template that might have a phylactery and is never explained how its created.

[nonsi]

Corrupt spells are the evil equivalent of Santified spells. They can be prepared by anyone in a lvl X slot. The half casters can all RAW become liches if they take practiced spellcaster as it is by lvl 14.

As i said, Arch-Lich isnt actually the same thing, its a deathless template that might have a phylactery and is never explained how its created.


I get how things work according to the official materials, but for now I'm content with the Template of Lich being reserved to full arcan/divine casters.

What interests me more is that you said "the ritual is currently interesting, but lacking in elegance".
I think it is elegant, but I'm keeping an open mind.
Since you feel differently, I'd like to know what you think should be added/removed/changed so that it will no longer be lacking in elegance.

We're in the homebrew department here, so go with me on this for now, and later on we'll see if and how partial casters can fit into this picture.

[AtlasSniperman]

I haven't read the entire conversation so far, so forgive me if something I say has been said already.

the MGP book 'Encyclopaedia Arcane- Necromancy, Beyond the Grave", while not kosher in any way, does contain a nice description of becoming a lich, which(with some additions) works perfectly for ingame. I've used it for a plot whereby a villain wanted to become a lich without spellcasting abilities, was unique and interesting:



Becoming a Lich
The process that leads to the transformation into a lich is lengthy, expensive and extremely dangerous for practitioners who begin before they are truly ready. Only the more powerful spellcasters may even attempt to become a lich and of those, only a very tiny fraction may actually succeed. The cold fact is that to become one of the undead, one must actually die first. One simple mistake, one tiny flaw in the preparations will end the life of the practitioner permanently. No great goal of immortality in the wretched husk of a lich will welcome, only a dark, dry grave.

Beginning the transformation
To even begin the process of becoming a lich, the necromancer must meet the following requirements;

Spellcasting: Must be able to cast arcane spells of 6th level or higher
Feats: Brew Potion, Craft Wondrous Item, Spell Focus(Necromancy), Spirit Dissertation
Knowledge Skills: Necrology 14+, Spirit Lore 12+

No mere hedge wizard or tavern prestidigitator may consider, or even be aware of, this terrible rite of sorcery. Only the most powerful of wizards and sorcerers have the skill and strength of will necessary to contemplate stepping beyond the grave.

The Phylactery
Every lich has a phylactery in which the very essence of their life force is retained. So long as the phylactery remains intact, a lich is truly immortal for the destruction of its physical form will merely cause the raising of another within days. A phylactery may take virtually any material form, though it is always a masterfully crafted item that proves extremely durable.
The creation of a phylactery is the first step a necromancer must take to begin the transformation. He must expend 120,000gp in the process, which includes the cost of the masterworked item that will serve as the actual phylactery. The crafting takes 120 days, following all the usual rules for creating a wondrous magical item and will also cost the necromancer 4,800XP. Magic Jar and Permanency spells must be cast into the phylactery as it is being crafted.

The concoction of death
The phylactery created, the necromancer must now prepare a potion of death, a brew so charged with negative energy it annihilates life upon contact. It is this potion the necromancer must drink to end his current life and make the transformation into unlife. One mistake in the preparation of this lethal concoction will bring only death to the practitioner when the time arrives for his passage to lichdom.

This deadly potion takes 25,000gp, 3,600XP and one week to brew. As it is being prepared, the necromancer must cast animate dead, chill blood, enervation and permanency into it.

The Transformation
The potion must be drunk at the height of a new moon, for liches are creatures of the night and it is in this darkness where their powers are greatest. Consumed at any other time, the potion will only grant the most dire of results.

Upon drinking the potion, the necromancer will fall comatose for 2d10 days with no means, magical or otherwise, able to revive him as he slowly dies. At the end of this time, he must make an Intelligence check at DC20 in order to discover if the preparation of the potion was truly flawless. Failure will result in the death of mind, body and soul as the negative energy unleashed by this most awesome of magicks consumes him utterly. A practitioner dying in this way may not be raised or resurrected by any means.

Success, however, will grant the necromancer true immortality as he rises into new unlife as a lich. Apply the lich template in Core Rulebook III immediately. The necromancer has now truly stepped beyond the grave.


Ok, now to tweak it for PC's and to be consistently useable:
1) "Beginning the transformation":

Though this makes it look like a PrC, it's more a guide as to what the requirements are in later points.
Spirit Dissertation is a feat in EA-Necromancy; basically it gives you "speak with dead" once per day as a supernatural ability.
Knowledge(Necrology) and Knowledge(Spirit Lore) can be replaced by Knowledge(Religion) and Knowledge(the planes) if you don't want to bother with including them in your campaign



2) The Phylactery
Nothing I see needs changing here. Magic Jar and Permanency work perfectly here

3) the Concoction of death
Now it's getting good, You want a list of ingredients? this is what I use for my concoctions of death:

Heart of a Virgin(girls are better, Children under 13 are good too. Having it come from both grants a +1 on the Int check)
1 Pint of vampire blood
The poison gland from a wyvern(Acid gland from an Old or older black dragon grants a +1 on the Int check)
The eyes of gravekeeper, taken while he was alive and concious(must be gathered at most 1 week before the potion is begun)
a sprig of Belladona
a wand(straight crystalline rod basically) of Cobalite or Arsenopyrite, used to stir(cobalite is a 45% arsenic gemstone, Arsenopyrite is 46%)
Reproductive organs from a mother(+2 on the Int check if its the casters own mother)
Sprig of black lotus


You can use whatever you want. but this list works really well for my purposes.

4) The Transformation
to make it a bit harder to do(once a year), a nice idea is to keep that it has to be done at night, but change it from "new moon" to "the necromancer's birthday"

Anything else I can add? I don't think so, if you want more ingredients or something just let me know :P

[nonsi]

.
@ AtlasSniperman: First of all, thanks for the effort of putting it all to text.

While I won't adopt the ritual you proposed as given, it does have some elements I find appropriate.



Spirit Dissertation seems out of place, because even though a lich is definitely a powerful caster with a wide necromantic background, the template is not described to inherently possess such power or even ever having cast speak with dead.

Knowledge(Necrology) and Knowledge(Spirit Lore) - I believe those are fully covered by Knowledge(arcana & religion).



The phylactery - I'm keeping my version for now.



The concoction of death, OTOH, is certainly appropriate (I'll offer my own version), and now it feels more appropriate for me that the caster should drink it rather than the victim.

The pint of venom from a nightcrawler’s tail stinger will remain as the key ingrediant of the potion.
Dark reaver powder seems more appropriate to me than wyvern's poison gland.
The wand of Cobalite/Arsenopyrite for stirring the potion certainly adds an element of flavor to it.
I'm also considering using the heart of a Barghest, since it comes from "Bleak Eternity of Gehenna", and because of its "Feed" power that devowers souls and allows it to grow in power, just as a lich can grow in power.
As for heart of a Virgin / eyes of gravekeeper / Reproductive organs – those just seem gory to me, not things that are related to undeath-immortality.


The "animate dead" aspect is already covered in teh ritual, so it seems redundant.
Chill blood is appropriate, but will require me to add its description, so I'm not sure I'll use it (one new spell is enough - the rest should be core).
Seems to me like this potion should also be affected by slay living, because enervation on its own is not really dangerous to high level characters.

[toapat]

What interests me more is that you said "the ritual is currently interesting, but lacking in elegance".
I think it is elegant, but I'm keeping an open mind.
Since you feel differently, I'd like to know what you think should be added/removed/changed so that it will no longer be lacking in elegance.

Elegance is a non-intuitive concept, mostly only able to be refined out of inelegance through brute force and observation. Typically its trying to attain the most intuitive complexity out of something simple. Minesweeper is a good example of this. Its a game with 2 mechanics that interact to create an incredibly difficult and complex scenario. In DnD that cant really be the case when you arent working with Incarnum, so you have to come up with something clean and straightforward

What i can tell you is that having a procedure 22 steps long is not elegant in any situation ever.

[nonsi]

Elegance is a non-intuitive concept, mostly only able to be refined out of inelegance through brute force and observation. Typically its trying to attain the most intuitive complexity out of something simple. Minesweeper is a good example of this. Its a game with 2 mechanics that interact to create an incredibly difficult and complex scenario.


Ok, I see what you mean.





In DnD that cant really be the case when you arent working with Incarnum, .......


I'm not sure Incarnum is a good example, because most players find it difficult to figure out (I stopped somewere midway because I didn't like the mechanics, so I'm not really sure how I would've handled it had I dug in deep).





....... so you have to come up with something clean and straightforward
What i can tell you is that having a procedure 22 steps long is not elegant in any situation ever.


There shouldn't be anything straightforward about attaining immortality.
Becoming a nearly indestructible immortal has nothing whatsoever (nor should it have) with a 2-dimensional (virtual)board game.
If anything, it should be just about the most complex thing a character can ever hope to attempt.
It should be even longer than 22 steps. I just don't wanna put things into it that seem out of context.

Taking your definition of elegance, I don't wish for a Lich transformation to be elegant, but it should definitely be clean - as in not contain steps that are there just for the sake of being there.

[toapat]

I'm not sure Incarnum is a good example, because most players find it difficult to figure out (I stopped somewere midway because I didn't like the mechanics, so I'm not really sure how I would've handled it had I dug in deep).

There shouldn't be anything straightforward about attaining immortality.
Becoming a nearly indestructible immortal has nothing whatsoever (nor should it have) with a 2-dimensional (virtual)board game.
If anything, it should be just about the most complex thing a character can ever hope to attempt.
It should be even longer than 22 steps. I just don't wanna put things into it that seem out of context.

Taking your definition of elegance, I don't wish for a Lich transformation to be elegant, but it should definitely be clean - as in not contain steps that are there just for the sake of being there.

Its DnD, true elegance is a myth. Incarnum is clean if tedious.


Considering that the best form of Immortality i know of is Kissed by the Ages + Item Familiar, being 11 times longer is not exactly good. The problem is alot of this is just there to be there. Crafting the Phylactery should be a DC 20 Jewelery then DC 20 Spellcraft check to make. Leather and metal are both part of the Jewelery skill's allowed material work.

the final step is absurdly complex, if not outright virtually impossible because it requires a true moon eclipse, not a bloodmoon, while also requiring some monsterously evil scheme to have been completed within 16 hours prior.

[nonsi]

Considering that the best form of Immortality i know of is Kissed by the Ages + Item Familiar, being 11 times longer is not exactly good. The problem is alot of this is just there to be there. Crafting the Phylactery should be a DC 20 Jewelery then DC 20 Spellcraft check to make. Leather and metal are both part of the Jewelery skill's allowed material work.


Being as easy as you spell it out, every other 11th-level-plus spellcaster is a lich.
Congratulations, Your game world has just been overtaken by armies of liches (too bad for the living).




the final step is absurdly complex, if not outright virtually impossible because it requires a true moon eclipse, not a bloodmoon, while also requiring some monsterously evil scheme to have been completed within 16 hours prior.

Sure it's absurdly complex. Have you ever tried to ascend to undead immortality?
Yes, it's difficult, but not impossible with the right planning.
And it's definitely not supposed to be common knowledge (DC 20 in 2 skill checks is practically common knowledge).
And what's the point in the CL-11th requirement if it's not really expressed in any way?

[AtlasSniperman]

.
@ AtlasSniperman: First of all, thanks for the effort of putting it all to text.

While I won't adopt the ritual you proposed as given, it does have some elements I find appropriate.

I didn't expect you would, but I hoped that adding in what I use might give you some ideas that at least help the flavour, and apparently it did.




Spirit Dissertation seems out of place, because even though a lich is definitely a powerful caster with a wide necromantic background, the template is not described to inherently possess such power or even ever having cast speak with dead.

Knowledge(Necrology) and Knowledge(Spirit Lore) - I believe those are fully covered by Knowledge(arcana & religion).


Yep, added the quick summation so you might have guessed I wasn't too flash hot on the idea either. I can see why they did it(a lich being a soul with regenerating body) though.




The concoction of death, OTOH, is certainly appropriate (I'll offer my own version), and now it feels more appropriate for me that the caster should drink it rather than the victim.

The pint of venom from a nightcrawler’s tail stinger will remain as the key ingrediant of the potion.
Dark reaver powder seems more appropriate to me than wyvern's poison gland.
The wand of Cobalite/Arsenopyrite for stirring the potion certainly adds an element of flavor to it.
I'm also considering using the heart of a Barghest, since it comes from "Bleak Eternity of Gehenna", and because of its "Feed" power that devowers souls and allows it to grow in power, just as a lich can grow in power.
As for heart of a Virgin / eyes of gravekeeper / Reproductive organs – those just seem gory to me, not things that are related to undeath-immortality.


A lot of the ideas came from it being both a necromantic ritual, and inherently evil. The "Gory" parts are actually things that have been used in real rituals to evil gods... creepy.

For the most part my concoction of death is available for upgrading ingame. if you get rarer/stronger incredients it's more and more powerful. One guy got the heart of a 7 year old Illumian Half-red dragon girl. That was nasty.



The "animate dead" aspect is already covered in teh ritual, so it seems redundant.
Chill blood is appropriate, but will require me to add its description, so I'm not sure I'll use it (one new spell is enough - the rest should be core).
Seems to me like this potion should also be affected by slay living, because enervation on its own is not really dangerous to high level characters.

I actually think Con damage should be an important part in the transition to lichdom as undead have no con score. so a spell like Slay living should work well. If you don't want to use Chill blood, Chill touch should work just find I would think

[nonsi]

I didn't expect you would, but I hoped that adding in what I use might give you some ideas that at least help the flavour, and apparently it did.


It most certainly did.





Yep, added the quick summation so you might have guessed I wasn't too flash hot on the idea either. I can see why they did it(a lich being a soul with regenerating body) though.


I see your point, but a character already has to spend a lot of resources, so I wouldn't wanna impose feat taxes (plural) as well.
Maybe I could incorporate the spell into the ritual, but I don't see where it would fit ATM.





A lot of the ideas came from it being both a necromantic ritual, and inherently evil. The "Gory" parts are actually things that have been used in real rituals to evil gods... creepy.


I can actually see how "eyes of a gravekeeper" make sense (I'm guessing gravekeeper=undertaker), but this would ruin the ArchLich twist - no way in the nine hells you could excuse that in any way (and good luck finding an alternative).





For the most part my concoction of death is available for upgrading ingame. if you get rarer/stronger incredients it's more and more powerful. One guy got the heart of a 7 year old Illumian Half-red dragon girl. That was nasty.


Since I gave reasonable odds to anyone who plays his/her cards right, and given my Lichdom scenario is complex enough, I'd rather not go there.





I actually think Con damage should be an important part in the transition to lichdom as undead have no con score. so a spell like Slay living should work well. If you don't want to use Chill blood, Chill touch should work just find I would think


Actually, I decided it was too thematically appropriate to pass up.
It's mentioned in the creation of the potion and detailed at the bottom of the OP (found it on the web, so it saved me the typing).




Your post has driven quite a few changes, so maybe you'd wanna re-read the OP.
You might find it more complete now.

[toapat]

Being as easy as you spell it out, every other 11th-level-plus spellcaster is a lich.
Congratulations, Your game world has just been overtaken by armies of liches (too bad for the living).




Sure it's absurdly complex. Have you ever tried to ascend to undead immortality?
Yes, it's difficult, but not impossible with the right planning.
And it's definitely not supposed to be common knowledge (DC 20 in 2 skill checks is practically common knowledge).
And what's the point in the CL-11th requirement if it's not really expressed in any way?

Im not saying it should be very short, but 11 times longer then a permanent immortality that makes it basically impossible to lose your item familiar?

DC 20 isnt common knowledge. DC 10 is supposed to be.
The timing is virtually impossible, as most settings have earth like moons where the orbital period is shorter then the full year, meaning a total eclipse of them only happens every few centuries, or in the case of eberron, every 10,000 years.

There really isnt anything unspeakably evil about the ritual either. its not like you are using trap the soul and then purging the soul from the gem.

You also still havent justified the CL11 pre-requisite

[AtlasSniperman]

-SNIP-

You also still havent justified the CL11 pre-requisite

the CL11 comes from the lich entry in MM1

[nonsi]

Im not saying it should be very short, but 11 times longer then a permanent immortality that makes it basically impossible to lose your item familiar?


"Kissed by the Ages" is a 9th level spell that gives you something you can get from level 1 (just be an Elan or a Killoren). Hardly exciting.
Also, the idea behind the spell is quite uninspiring (but that's just a matter of personal taste).
And, of course, this comes nowhere near lichdom (potent DR + undead traits + extra immunities + triple ability boost + fear (mostly fluff) + paralysis + auto-true-ressurection).





DC 20 isnt common knowledge. DC 10 is supposed to be.
The timing is virtually impossible, as most settings have earth like moons where the orbital period is shorter then the full year, meaning a total eclipse of them only happens every few centuries, or in the case of eberron, every 10,000 years.


I'm no expert on the subject, but Encyclopedia Britannica says there's more than one lunar eclipse per year on average (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/178098/eclipse/11202/The-frequency-of-solar-and-lunar-eclipses).
All I said was "during the eclipse of a full moon", not "Total penumbral lunar eclipse" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_penumbral_lunar_eclipse). Even though the latter makes more sense, the former is more cinematic.
But even if I did, nothing's to stop a DM from deciding that in his/her gameworld such things happen at an accurate interval of say 7 years.
And I don't exactly get how shorter orbital period means lower frequency. Wouldn't it give more opportunities per time quota?





There really isnt anything unspeakably evil about the ritual either. its not like you are using trap the soul and then purging the soul from the gem.


Taking over someone (I'm guessing including retries)
Paralyzing him (including retries)
Making him tremble with terror (including retries)
Disintegrating him (including retries)
Consuming his essence.
Betraying someone else in a manner that make him wanna kill you immediately with everything else not mattering anymore.

Seems evil enough to me.
Would've adopted the suggested gravekeeper's eyes thing, if it didn't sabotage the ArchLich alternative (I'm open to suggestions here).





You also still havent justified the CL11 pre-requisite


Attain Lichdom and Disintegrate are both 6th level spells.
I don't know of any way of getting 6th level spells pre-11th (not without RAW abuse cheesyness anyway).

[toapat]

And I don't exactly get how shorter orbital period means lower frequency. Wouldn't it give more opportunities per time quota?

Taking over someone (I'm guessing including retries)
Paralyzing him (including retries)
Making him tremble with terror (including retries)
Disintegrating him (including retries)
Consuming his essence.
Betraying someone else in a manner that make him wanna kill you immediately with everything else not mattering anymore.

Seems evil enough to me.
Would've adopted the suggested gravekeeper's eyes thing, if it didn't sabotage the ArchLich alternative (I'm open to suggestions here).

Attain Lichdom and Disintegrate are both 6th level spells.
I don't know of any way of getting 6th level spells pre-11th (not without RAW abuse cheesyness anyway).

Luna orbits at such distance from earth that it can only once every 365ish years perform a total eclipse, passing normally through the outer shadow of earth, not the inner shadow, which is why luna turns red when we see an eclipse. Inclination and non-whole orbital period ratios are what make this need impossible. It doesnt help that the authors tend to make things that are perfectly mundane have extremely long periods between recurrence for drama.

Mind control isnt evil in DnD, else most of the enchantment school would have the (Evil) tag
Destroying a soul is, except in eberron where Mabar is more evil and the PCs all are native to hell.
Betraying someone to that extent isnt evil, its chaotic.

Ur-priest lvl 6 can be attained by lvl 8 if skill requirements are ignored.

[MrNobody]

There really isnt anything unspeakably evil about the ritual either. its not like you are using trap the soul and then purging the soul from the gem.


This is something i noticed too. I don't think that anyone could say that the ritual isn't evil but I think we all expect it to be...EVIL!

Since Book of Vile Darkness were published the limit of what Evil in D&D could be was raised: drugs, tortures, sacrifices to evil gods. Things that could be gory or not (i prefer not) but that are so evil that was necessary to invent a new type (of feats, damage and other) to define it: vile.

Since Lichdom is the highest peak of undeath, the highest peak of evil, i feel that you should aim to THAT kind of vileness when designing the ritual.

To help you doing this, corrupt spell may be a good way. Substitute disintegration with Rotten curse of Ulfestra (at the end you don't have ashes but a bunch of rotten flesh) or, to kill yourself, use power leech to slowly drain away all your CON.
Torture the victim (remeber that torture requires Intimidate checks) and extract its pain with Liquid pain (that you later ingest, so you have both torture and drugs).

These are only a few ideas that could bring you at the BOVD's evil level that maybe something that you need.

[nonsi]

This is something i noticed too. I don't think that anyone could say that the ritual isn't evil but I think we all expect it to be...EVIL!

Since Book of Vile Darkness were published the limit of what Evil in D&D could be was raised: drugs, tortures, sacrifices to evil gods. Things that could be gory or not (i prefer not) but that are so evil that was necessary to invent a new type (of feats, damage and other) to define it: vile.

Since Lichdom is the highest peak of undeath, the highest peak of evil, i feel that you should aim to THAT kind of vileness when designing the ritual.

To help you doing this, corrupt spell may be a good way. Substitute disintegration with Rotten curse of Ulfestra (at the end you don't have ashes but a bunch of rotten flesh) or, to kill yourself, use power leech to slowly drain away all your CON.
Torture the victim (remeber that torture requires Intimidate checks) and extract its pain with Liquid pain (that you later ingest, so you have both torture and drugs).

These are only a few ideas that could bring you at the BOVD's evil level that maybe something that you need.

Liquid pain is good, but how do I reconsile it with ArchLich? I mean, there's a limit to what one would volunteer, no matter how altruistic. Would it have a suitable substitution? (what?)
Rotten curse of Ulfestra is something I couldn't find anywhere. It's a 6th level equivalent of disintegrate, right?
Power leech is not a spell, so it's a no go.

Corrupt Spell feat seems like a terrible waste on a single spell. this doesn't go well with the search for ultimate power.


How about if the preparation of the concoction required 13 days - each of which required a dose of Liquid Pain taken from the same victim at the time of preparation? (maybe the one being used for the ritual)?
And again - what about ArchLich?

[MrNobody]

TOTAL EDIT.
Corrupt spells and the Corrupt spell feat are two different things. The latter is, obviously, a feat and it's not what i'm talkin about. What i'm talking about are corrupt spells which you can find at pp. 77-78 in Book of Vile Darkness. There they are defined as:


They are truly horrible applications of magic. [...] Spellcasters prepare corrupt spells just as they do regular spells, but corrupt spells are available only to spellcasters who prepare spells. Wizards and clerics, for example, can use corrupt magic, but sorcerers and bards cannot. A sorcerer or bard could, however, cast a corrupt spell from a scroll. A corrupt spell has no material components. Instead, it draws power away from the mental or physical well-being of the caster in the form of ability damage or ability drain. The ability damage or drain occurs when the spell’s duration expires.

Among these spells you find, at level 3, Rotting Curse of Urfestra (BOVD, p. 102 )and, at level, Power Leech (BOVD p.101).
Here a sample of the text of both.

The subject’s flesh and bones begin to rot. The subject takes 1d6 points of Constitution damage immediately,and a further 1d6 points of Constitution damage every hour until the subject dies or the curse is removed with a wish, miracle, or remove curse spell.
The caster creates a conduit of evil energy between himself and another creature. Through the conduit, the caster can leech off ability score points at the rate of 1 point per round. The other creature takes 1 point of drain from an ability score of the caster’s choosing, and the caster gains a +1 enhancement bonus to the same ability score per point drained during the casting of this spell. In other words, all points drained during this spell stack with each other to determine the enhancement bonus, but they don’t stack with other castings of power leech or with other enhancement bonuses. The enhancement bonus lasts for 10 minutes per caster level

The idea of the concotion with liquid pain is good, and opens to my idea for archlich.
If to be come the most evil thing on earth you need liquid pain, to become the opposite (a good lich, that is not only a good character... is something more, since good deities allow the existence of such an aberration to defend the cause of Good) you need its opposite: Ambrosia (that can be obtained through the spell distilled joy in Book of Exalted Deeds, page 96.

The spell states:

You draw forth the material essence of joy from a creature experiencing great bliss.

But it does not say WHY the creature in experiencing its joy.
Now, one thing i learned from my christian education is that martyrs (people that altruistically sacrifice themself for a greater purpose, and this is the case of our "victims") are never afraid of death and, in most of the case, they are HAPPY to die for their faith, experiencing through martyrdom the maximum closeness to their god. Martyrdom is sometimes described as on of the greatest pleasure a follower could ever experience.

That said, since one of your requirements is to have someone offer its own life for you to become the ultimate force of good, here we have a martyr.
If you accept what i stated above about martyrs, you could cast distilled joy while or before your martyr is killed so to sample the colossal joy he is experiencing and including it into the ritual.

The best out of it is that, making your victim a martyr, you give also the possibility to be raised as Raisen Martyr (CdP in Book of Exalted Deeds, p.68): two exalted agents of good with one ritual!!

Hope you like the idea.

[AtlasSniperman]

Other ideas for where to get Liquid pain for use by an ArchLich:
The agony is taken from the to-be-ArchLich himself
The agony is taken from an evil creature in payment for its crimes.

[toapat]

Liquid pain is good, but how do I reconsile it with ArchLich?

You dont. Players guide to faerun Web Enhancmeent updated it to being a deathless template and Archlich has never had its creation be talked about. Functionally their intention of origin is similar to self animating zombies or mummies, where the Archlich comes about to finish some ultimate task or protect some sacred location forever.

[nonsi]

You dont. Players guide to faerun Web Enhancmeent updated it to being a deathless template


1. Unless this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a) is not it, then no. All it has is "Dracolich: See Draconomicon".
2. I could just say that the altered ritual applies the deathless template to the caster when his body is trasformed into its ghoul-like state.





and Archlich has never had its creation be talked about.


So here's where it has its creation being talked about.





Functionally their intention of origin is similar to self animating zombies or mummies, where the Archlich comes about to finish some ultimate task or protect some sacred location forever.


Ok, then it's self animating ghoul. Just about the same.
And ghoul lies between zombie and mummy. Seems right to me.

[nonsi]

Corrupt spells and the Corrupt spell feat are two different things.


Ok, got it.




Among these spells you find, at level 3, Rotting Curse of Urfestra (BOVD, p. 102 )and, at level, Power Leech (BOVD p.101).
Here a sample of the text of both.


Ok. Since the Lich template has +2 ability modifier to each of the Lich's Int/Wis/Cha, then I see the point of using Power Leech to draw this much amount from the victim during the ceremony - prior to Magic Jar possession. And given it's done by consent in the transformation to ArchLich, then it shouldn't be labeled Vile.
Also, given that Agony potion is already used for the concoction, seems pointless to prefer Rotting Curse of Urfestra over Disintegrate (will only prolong the ritual without adding anything new). And this cannot be excused for ArchLichdom.





The idea of the concotion with liquid pain is good, and opens to my idea for archlich.
If to be come the most evil thing on earth you need liquid pain, to become the opposite (a good lich, that is not only a good character... is something more, since good deities allow the existence of such an aberration to defend the cause of Good) you need its opposite: Ambrosia (that can be obtained through the spell distilled joy in Book of Exalted Deeds, page 96.

The spell states:

You draw forth the material essence of joy from a creature experiencing great bliss.


But it does not say WHY the creature in experiencing its joy.
Now, one thing i learned from my christian education is that martyrs (people that altruistically sacrifice themself for a greater purpose, and this is the case of our "victims") are never afraid of death and, in most of the case, they are HAPPY to die for their faith, experiencing through martyrdom the maximum closeness to their god. Martyrdom is sometimes described as on of the greatest pleasure a follower could ever experience.

That said, since one of your requirements is to have someone offer its own life for you to become the ultimate force of good, here we have a martyr.
If you accept what i stated above about martyrs, you could cast distilled joy while or before your martyr is killed so to sample the colossal joy he is experiencing and including it into the ritual.

The best out of it is that, making your victim a martyr, you give also the possibility to be raised as Raisen Martyr (CdP in Book of Exalted Deeds, p.68): two exalted agents of good with one ritual!!


I see the point to this angle, but in the vein martyrdom I see an equally valid point at adopting AtlasSniperman's proposal of agony taken from the to-be-ArchLich himself.
And self-afflicted pain has been an element in christianity.
Now I'm uncertain which one to choose :smallfrown:

[toapat]

So here's where it has its creation being talked about.

except that archlich was never intended to be a player accessible character option. Its supposed to be on the side of gandalf type characters. someone significantly more passive in the story then the player. There would be more talking about it then "Something something occationally a good person becomes a lich something something". This is the same reason there are no deathless templates.

[MrNobody]

@nonsi
The point of using the rotting curse instead of desintegration would be using a corrupt (and super evil) spell instead of a neutral one. But i see all the trouble it would cause.
For power leech used for the Archlich i doubt you could consider it non-vile: first you must be evil to prepare it, no choice; second, in D&D is the spell descriptor that matters, not how the spell is used, so a corrupt spell is without doubt EVIL even if you use it to save trillions of beautiful, innocent puppies!

@toapat
I see your point and i find it widely agreeable but, just for clarity sake, i musta say that a deathless template does exist: Sacred Watcher, Book of Exalted Deeds, pp. 182 - 183.

[toapat]

@toapat
I see your point and i find it widely agreeable but, just for clarity sake, i musta say that a deathless template does exist: Sacred Watcher, Book of Exalted Deeds, pp. 182 - 183.

In my defense, Foxit Reader is terrible for PDFs of DnD. Although the "Is not player accessible" still applies to that because Sacred Watcher is not able to be applied intentionally by players without a DM's strict consent.

[MrNobody]

In my defense, Foxit Reader is terrible for PDFs of DnD. Although the "Is not player accessible" still applies to that because Sacred Watcher is not able to be applied intentionally by players without a DM's strict consent.

Agreed, is more like something that, as a DM, i would use to award a paladin PC that died heroically while defending a temple or other holy place than something i'd allow a player of mine to begin with (or to choose to become).

[nonsi]

except that archlich was never intended to be a player accessible character option. Its supposed to be on the side of gandalf type characters. someone significantly more passive in the story then the player. There would be more talking about it then "Something something occationally a good person becomes a lich something something". This is the same reason there are no deathless templates.

Campaign-wise, I don't see why a PC-Lich should be more viable than a PC-ArchLich.

[nonsi]

@nonsi
The point of using the rotting curse instead of desintegration would be using a corrupt (and super evil) spell instead of a neutral one. But i see all the trouble it would cause.
For power leech used for the Archlich i doubt you could consider it non-vile: first you must be evil to prepare it, no choice; second, in D&D is the spell descriptor that matters, not how the spell is used, so a corrupt spell is without doubt EVIL even if you use it to save trillions of beautiful, innocent puppies!


Ok, what would you say about this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?209871-Feat-See-no-Evil-3-x) then?

Also, I don't really see power leech as being particularly evil.
You temporarily transfer stats from someone to yourself. How's that more evil than killing people? Just because the author has labeled it so(?).
Houseruling & Homebrewing is all about "I'm not compelling myself to stick with the author's standpoint".

[MrNobody]

The feat is a cool solution! Really Nice!

As i see it the thing about homebrewing is that you flesh out something original on its own but you can’t deny that rules already exist expeciallay while dealing with official material! if you put a corrupt spell between your requirements you must deal with the rules for corrupt spells... or homebrew a spell that mimics that spell and that is not corrupted. But Doing so would lead to an endLess work!

Power Leech is worst than killing because in d&d killing is not the greatest evil: there are things that one could to to the immortal soul of a living creature that make seem a murder a pious act!!!!!
With power Leech you Slowly corrode a Person mind and body, watching him drown into madness or coma (for mentale stats) or weakened to death (for physical). You cause a prolonged suffering (on the better situation you must pass 1 full minute to drained all the CON of an average character, one point at a time), You let your victim aware it is slowly fading and you also grow stronger with its suffering. You are like a vampire, but you don’t do it because forced by your hunger but on your free will pushed by your mere thirst for power!
And you don’t transfer you steal: at the end of the spell the victim does not regain all the Loss. without magic bit will need a week or more to fully recover.

[nonsi]

Power Leech is worst than killing because in d&d killing is not the greatest evil: there are things that one could to to the immortal soul of a living creature that make seem a murder a pious act!!!!!
With power Leech you Slowly corrode a Person mind and body, watching him drown into madness or coma (for mentale stats) or weakened to death (for physical). You cause a prolonged suffering (on the better situation you must pass 1 full minute to drained all the CON of an average character, one point at a time), You let your victim aware it is slowly fading and you also grow stronger with its suffering. You are like a vampire, but you don’t do it because forced by your hunger but on your free will pushed by your mere thirst for power!
And you don’t transfer you steal: at the end of the spell the victim does not regain all the Loss. without magic bit will need a week or more to fully recover.


Though from my personal point of view, DM's call could be exercised depending on the situations in which the spell is put to use, I see what you mean.





As i see it the thing about homebrewing is that you flesh out something original on its own but you can’t deny that rules already exist expeciallay while dealing with official material! if you put a corrupt spell between your requirements you must deal with the rules for corrupt spells... or homebrew a spell that mimics that spell and that is not corrupted. But Doing so would lead to an endLess work!


Yeah, you're right. The paperwork aint worth it.





The feat is a cool solution! Really Nice!


Ok, so it'll go like this:
1. Power Leech will be added as the ritual's first step.
2. A would-be ArchLich would have to possess the feat See No Evil before beginning the quest for ArchLichdom, and cannot research Power Leech on his own (must be purchased or bought).
2.1. The altered arcane energies of the ritual physically transform the caster's body into a deathless ghoul (though this is mostly fluff, since this stage lasts but minutes).
2.2. The caster has to target himself when using Liquid Pain to collect the potion of Agony – a process that takes 3 times as long per dose, plus 1 day recovery in between (no less than 51 days for 13 doses of Liquid Pain).

How does this sound so far?

[nonsi]

.
Ok people, unless somebody has any further enlightenments to share, seems like this project has reached its desired successful end.

Thanks to all participants, this wouldn’t've happen without you.