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Indoril
2007-03-28, 12:31 PM
Currently my party has finished the second act of my campaign. The greater portion of the continent from which they hail, including the entire country in which the previous two acts have taken place, has been obliterated, and has sunk into the ocean. In its place stands The Gaping Maw (the 88th level of the Abyss, see Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss). So I have a question...

The players will, at some point, venture into The Gaping Maw to combat Demogorgon and send him back. They will be storming Abysm and possibly Ungorth Reddik (Demogorgon's military stronghold) beforehand. My question is this - has Wizards published maps and details of these two places anywhere, or am I left on my own?

I could map it out myself if I had to, my only problem is Abysm is enormous, and Ungorth Reddik can't be too small either. In addition I would hate to map out a place as large as Ungorth and have them end up not going there. Does anyone know of anywhere I might find these?

daggaz
2007-03-28, 02:44 PM
Well, there are probably real maps somewhere.... but in this case, you could always do what Tolkien did: Make some really crappy simplistic maps, and wing the rest. If they focus on one area in particular, make a more complicated map of it.

Indoril
2007-03-28, 03:18 PM
I could do that with Abysm, because there's a low possibility they'll be going to its lower levels (since like, Demogorgon lives at the top most of the time, and the lower levels lead to another, lower level of the abyss).

The problem with doing that with Ungorth is, in the event they go there, they'll be leading an army more than likely, and the goal will be to rout its inhabitants. So if they go there, I have to map all of it, and I'm not going to do so unless I know they're going.

So if there is no map of Abysm I'm fine (though, I'd love to have an official one), but I've gotta find one of Ungorth Reddik.

Thanks for the idea though, I may end up using it for Abysm.

Indoril
2007-03-28, 09:40 PM
Well if nobody here knows, does anybody know where I should start asking around? I'm kind of lost here.

Matthew
2007-03-29, 05:16 PM
Hmmn. Did you try searching the Wizard's Website? The only other thing I can think of is the old (A)D&D 2.x Planescape Setting, which might contain such information.

Cocktail Umbrellas
2007-03-30, 02:24 AM
Might want to try scanning the Planescape stuff, but with the Abyss having scads and scads and scads of layers, it really doesn't say much of each of them I'm afraid. I don't recall seeing any maps or real details of the 88th layer (other than what you've already mentioned, Demogorgon's realm etc). Though I'm pretty well lanned when it comes to the planes, I've not read everything, so more details may be somewhere. Sadly Planewalker.com only has what you already know.

Funny thing about the planes though is that maps are pretty much useless 9 times outta 10 anyway. If you made a rough map, the PCs could use it, but if you felt like changing anything it would work out fine- it's unlikely a layer of the Abyss is going to stay super stable anyway. But that doesn't really help you personally.

In your favour, his realm doesn't need to be huge. He could keep his layer tiny enough that he can easily keep track of those that come and go. The Abyss is a place of chaos, go nuts ^_^

In any case, best of luck, sorry I can't help you with any real info.

Indoril
2007-03-30, 08:36 AM
Might want to try scanning the Planescape stuff, but with the Abyss having scads and scads and scads of layers, it really doesn't say much of each of them I'm afraid. I don't recall seeing any maps or real details of the 88th layer (other than what you've already mentioned, Demogorgon's realm etc). Though I'm pretty well lanned when it comes to the planes, I've not read everything, so more details may be somewhere. Sadly Planewalker.com only has what you already know.

Funny thing about the planes though is that maps are pretty much useless 9 times outta 10 anyway. If you made a rough map, the PCs could use it, but if you felt like changing anything it would work out fine- it's unlikely a layer of the Abyss is going to stay super stable anyway. But that doesn't really help you personally.

In your favour, his realm doesn't need to be huge. He could keep his layer tiny enough that he can easily keep track of those that come and go. The Abyss is a place of chaos, go nuts ^_^

In any case, best of luck, sorry I can't help you with any real info.

Well, if they were going to go in detail about any of the layers I think they would about this one...he is the Prince of Demons after all.

Also through a...convoluted set of circumstances...The Gaping Maw now sits on the Prime Material Plane. So it operates under an entirely set of different rules. I also have a map of it - the plane itself, that is (there's one in Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss). I'm just stuck on those two major military fortresses located on it.

I'll look through that Planescape stuff though. Thanks for the thoughts.

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-30, 09:23 AM
Well, even if they are going in there with an army (you might even say, especially if they're doing that) you don't have to map out every room and corridor of Ungorth. You need a few detailed locations planned out, and a general street map that shows their relation to each other. Unless you really think your players are going to want to clear the place house by house, you basically just need some important things for the PCs to do, and come up with a more abstract mechanism for "the army assists in dealing with the populace."

If the players are likely to want to explore the city in house-to-house detail...well, good luck is all I can say there. Think about taking a map of a walled city (either fantasy or real) and assigning your "important locations" to it. Then have either a list or a table which gives you results for what is in each building. But really, I would consider this to be a situation where your players are being difficult.

Of course, your options are also limited depending on your usual DMing style. Are your players used to you using somewhat-abstract travel montages? Or do they expect detailed descriptions/maps of everything between points A and B? As an example of the kind of distinction I mean, compare the original Baldur's Gate to, say, TOEE. In the former you travel through a series of in-game areas to get from town to town, while in the latter you generally choose a map location and the travel is abstracted.

If the former (travel-montage), your task should be pretty easy. You can show a detailed-looking map of the city (by which I mean, lots of pretty-looking convoluted alleys and buildings, but you haven't decided what's in any of them), create a few "traveling through the city" encounters, and they end up where they want to go. Of course you'll still need one or two backup locations in case the party goes somewhere you weren't expacting, but these can be pretty generic, like "A barracks" or "Demon commander's residence." It sounds like the party WANTS to accomplish whatever there would be to accomplish in this city, so they shouldn't want to get sidetracked too much just exploring.

If your players are used to everything being super-detailed, and just going wherever they want...well, you can use some of the tricks above, but it's going to be harder. Again, make a general map with streets and unnamed buildings. And literally just make a table of 5 or 6 things those buildings could be. If this is a military city, its not surprising if the design is fairly modular. And since they're invading with the army, there might not be anyone home. So again, "this appears to be a barracks. looks like this map. There is a chest with...XYZ in it. And 2d4 demons, which attack."

Now that latter approach starts to sound like your oldfashioned boring dungeon-crawl with 10-foot rooms with orcs. But so what? Your players can't really expect you to make every building in this big city entertaining. They should be ok with the idea that the interesting stuff is somewhere else and go looking for it. And it sounds like they'll have a pretty good idea of where, too, since they're there on a mission and all...

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-03-30, 04:33 PM
Well, since things seem a bit wonky, as it is, and this is the abyss, you could say the place is constantly shifting, due to its chaotic nature, and make it up as you see fit...

Indoril
2007-03-30, 08:42 PM
Well, since things seem a bit wonky, as it is, and this is the abyss, you could say the place is constantly shifting, due to its chaotic nature, and make it up as you see fit...

Please refer to...


Well, if they were going to go in detail about any of the layers I think they would about this one...he is the Prince of Demons after all.

Also through a...convoluted set of circumstances...The Gaping Maw now sits on the Prime Material Plane. So it operates under an entirely set of different rules. I also have a map of it - the plane itself, that is (there's one in Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss). I'm just stuck on those two major military fortresses located on it.

I'll look through that Planescape stuff though. Thanks for the thoughts.

Indoril
2007-03-30, 08:54 PM
In Respones to SpiderBrigade...

The party is split on the matter of "How much of these places do we explore?"
The leader and what you would essentially call the "main tank" want to get things over with and get to their goal A.S.A.P.
The party's archer is one of those "OMFG TREASURE." sort of characters and tends to want to open, look in, pick up, or explore everything.
The party's cleric just wants to make sure all the demons are dead, and will do what it takes.

The city building would be the easy part - I can do that. The problem is the sheer number of demons in this place. The army the players will be heading is going to lose, and if the players don't quickly locate their target (essentially Demogorgon's second-in-command) then they'll very likely die as well. I have it set so that when the commander of this base dies, the demons follow their chaotic nature and just sort of slowly disperse as other things on the Material Plane (rape, pillage, murder, and overall destruction) catch their fancy.

But back on what we're talking about here. I know I can make this up, but like I said I would be putting a whole lot of work into something that I may never use. Your methods would cut the workload down, but since Ungorth is enormous (several square miles at least), it would still be a great deal of cartography and planning. Also usually if there's an official copy of a city (for instance if I were to suddenly stick Saltmarsh from the DMG2 in their world) then I like to use the official copy just to be accurate by their standards. So really there's two reasons I'm after these.

I'll make it up if I have to though. I've looked around and it's looking like I may have to.

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-30, 09:15 PM
Well, I wish you luck in finding some official or at least semi-official (ie well-made 3rd-party) maps.

As far as further reducing how much planning you'll need, I think it's actually good that the city is quite large...I would guess the PCs aren't going to have ready access to detailed maps of this Abyssal stronghold. So they can't GET a detailed overview of the whole street plan. There's probably clouds of noxious smoke and etc. So again, if they really want to spend time away from the mission (and you sound like you're going to have them impressed with the need to get the mission DONE) you can have a single, smaller area ready which they will go into no matter which "part" of the city they explore.

Basically the goal here IMO is to boil down the planning to the smallest units possible, and figure out ways to "plug in" those units as needed. Like daggaz posted, use the Tolkien method. A very general city map, with maybe the paths of 2 major roads, and important buildings only, and nothing else, just areas labeled "city." This is the kind of thing an advanced scout in a rush might realistically report.

I think it'd also be helpful to get some clarification on the outnumbered army the party will have. Are they expecting to control every man in it as they fight huge hordes of demons? I really hope not because that'll be a pain no matter what. And again, if they're willing to let the action not immediately around the PCs fade into the background, you don't need maps, or even thousands of demons statted out. You just need "raging battle" effects as the players go after their actual goals.

Indoril
2007-03-30, 09:20 PM
Oh no, I'm not about to try to run combat for 100,000 soldiers against many times more demons. All I have to do is report general morale and how the battle stands to my PC's.

I'll probably use a combination of some of the ideas presented here, since it's looking like no official material really exists. Thanks for your help guys.