A homebrew caster

[burninatortrog]

I'm getting ready to run an E6 game and I'd like to offer a class that's similar to the Bard but doesn't use the Inspiration mechanics. I'd really like some feedback on this class entry candidate I drew up. Does it seem balanced?

Red Mage

Hit die: d8

Proficiencies:
Armor: Light armor
Weapons: Simple weapons, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, and shortswords
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Dexterity, Charisma

Features:
1st level: Spellcasting*
2nd level: Expertise
3rd level: -
4th level: Ability Score Increase
5th level: -
6th level: Extra Attack

* Your spellcasting is full-progression, is Charisma-based, and uses the bard spell list, but you have a spellbook and prepare and learn spells like a wizard (including learning new spells from scrolls). You know three cantrips at 1st level and learn one more at 4th level. The spellbook contains four spells at first level and adds one spell each time you gain a Red Mage level. You can cast rituals (with or without preparation) and use an arcane focus.

Thanks for reading!

EDIT: here's how I think this class stacks up against a wizard:



Wizard
Red Mage


Damage spells
Healing spells


Bigger spellbook
Bigger hit die


Arcane Recovery
Light armor & rapier


Arcane Tradition (lvl 2)
Expertise


Arcane Tradition (lvl 6)
Extra Attack

[Celcey]

It seems fine so far (although I'm no expert), but there are three things I noticed:
1. It only goes up to level six. Why is that?
2. Extra attack comes at 5th level, not 6th. Even the Warlock gets it at 5th (if they're a bladelock and want the extra attack).
3. You didn't make any subclasses. Are you planning to, or just not bothering because you don't need them?

[burninatortrog]

Good points!

1. "E6" means characters will only advance to 6th level, and after that they'll grow only in feats and ability scores. It's a world-building decision that means we won't have to think about the social/economic consequences of 4th-level spells. The idea originated (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_(3.5e_Sourcebook)) in the 3.5 days.

2. On the other hand, the Valor Bard gets its extra attack at 6th level. ;). I like having it at 6th because this class already gets 3rd-level spells at 5th, and I don't want 6th to be a dead level.

3. I'm not planning on subclasses, though I may give the option of taking Magical Secrets instead of Extra Attack.

[Myzz]

The ONLY class in the game that can effectively use a spellbook is a Wizard. Arcane Trickster and Edritch Knight who both cast wizard spells do not get a spellbook. A warlock pact of tomes and ritual caster give only a spellbook that can contain rituals.

Most might think this is irrelevant. But think of the implications. A wizard, a cleric, a druid and a paladin are the only casters that have full access to all the spells on their respective lists to change out each and every day. The wizard being the sole arcane magic user. The others all must beg spells from their deities and can thematically be denied those spells.

Wizard, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Ritual Caster feat holders, and Pact of Tomers can cast Rituals. Only the Pact of Tomers, Ritual Caster feat holders and Wizards can cast rituals that they have not prepared as their spells. Giving your version of a Bard a spellbook, drastically increases what spells your Bard can prepare and what he has access to outside of combat or adventuring, because he can now ritual cast all the rituals available to him not just his prepped ones.

Also the bard spell casting does not require prepped spells he can cast what he knows, so you would have to include a prepping mechanism unless you wanted to give him access to all spells on his spell list that he is able to cast at all times...

Also if he learns spells like a wizard, then he should be using INT. Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster both have Int as casters for that very reason. Especially if you decide to let him have his spellbook. Being pretty, persuasive, intimidating, deceptive, or able to perform does not make one able to remember fine details from a musty old tome. But of course I have issues with Bard being a CHA based spell caster in the first place, with the exception of enchantment and illusion spells. (which i realize is the bulk of thier spell table, but there are other schools on there as well...)

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I like it, but the addition of a spellbook doesn't make up for the many bard features that have been stripped out. Bardic music-based abilities are stronk. You may want to add minor features at 3 and 5.

For a caster/ultility character maybe add Jack of All Trades at 3, and add magical secrets to 5, or put extra attack there and put secrets at 6.

Or for more martial feel maybe get Valor bard weapon/armor proficiencies at 3, and add something like a fighting style at 5.

[burninatortrog]

For clarity, my intent is that this class should prepare spells just like a wizard does.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

For clarity, my intent is that this class should prepare spells just like a wizard does.

I understood that when I made my suggestion. If they can only learn up to level 3 spells from the Bard list, and learn spells like a wizard (a limited amount on level up, and then has to find in the world any further spells, thereby being throttled by time, gold and the DM) then you'll likely be picking mostly the same all-round useful spells as a normal Bard, but then can maybe sometimes also have the situationaly useful spells to call upon (like Speak with Plants) if given time to prepare or information ahead of time. If the game ran to high level, the spellbook would be more valuable, but since this is an e6 game it's a relatively minor buff to a low level bard-alike.
As a penalty you took out the bard's ability to buff skill checks, saves, short-rest healing, AC, to-hit, damage and saves versus charm. In my opinion, one is more valuable than the other, hence my suggestion of adding a little extra.

Now, if it was cleric style prepared casting, that would be a much larger buff.

[Person_Man]

Looks balanced to me. Honestly, if you or one of your players wanted to be a Bard that just swapped out Inspiration for Rituals from another class or a slightly expanded Spells Known list or spellbook or whatever, I'd be fine with it.

Having said that, I'm not really seeing a need for this class.

5 different classes have direct access to healing magic, plus the Healer Feat exists (which allows the Thief Rogue to heal as a Bonus Action), plus there are a few back door healing methods for other classes as well.

Every class has access to methods of getting 17+ AC.

Every class has access to at-will attacks via weapons and/or cantrips that deal similar scaled damage. The effectiveness of using cantrips vs weapons varies according to character level and class, but not by very much as long as you're using the at-will attack mode intended for your class modified by the appropriate class abilities and/or spells.

You can boost Skills a variety of different ways: Expertise (Rogue, Bard, Ranger), Guidance (Cleric, Druid), Pass Without Trace (Druid, Ranger, Shadow Monk), Enhance Ability (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer), Wildshape (Druid), the Help Action (anything that grants a minion), etc.

[Felvion]

In my eyes this class is absolutely fine to play with. My only doubts were on the spellcasting stat being charisma while having a spellbook but in general i see no problems.
My best point is that it definately doesn't break the game. You don't outclass any of the two classes you took your features from and that's a big plus. It's also easy to judge because of the fact that you are building it e6 and there are only 6 levels of it. In a regular campaign it could potentially question its scaling and would have to be looked over again.
Personally, i feel it's a bit weaker than a regular bard and i'd give it a slight bonus.
Your comparison is made vs a wizard but i think it would be more suited to compare it with a bard.
Against a bard you lose inspiration, song of rest, contercharm, Jack-of-all-Trades and the 3rd lvl subpath option. Everything else is the same if i'm not mistaken. I don't think giving up all these for just a better spellcasting method is a balanced option. I'd recommend keeping most of them (except for inspiration) or otherwise adding some other features you think would fit better.
My best suggestion would be arcane recovery at around level 4 as a way to even things out but still ain't sure if that would be enough. Mage hand legendermain from arcane trickster could fit in the theme too, imo...

PS: I'm curious how would E6 work in 5th edition...

[burninatortrog]

I've decided to give four spells at first level instead of the three I had up there before, since the character is likely to have a +3 charisma and be able to prepare four spells.


Your comparison is made vs a wizard but i think it would be more suited to compare it with a bard.
This was my first approach, but the more I think about it the more I find it easier to think of this class as a wizard variant. The only thing that really makes it like a bard is its spell list. It doesn't cast spells the way a bard does and it doesn't have inspiration like a bard does. It casts spells like a wizard does, and its spell list shares a lot in common with the wizard's spell list anyway.

In the end, I think weighing the light armor & rapier proficiencies against Arcane Recovery is easier than weighing the spellbook against the bard's spells known.


Against a bard you lose inspiration, song of rest, contercharm, Jack-of-all-Trades and the 3rd lvl subpath option. Everything else is the same if i'm not mistaken. I don't think giving up all these for just a better spellcasting method is a balanced option

Some people have noted that the wizard's ability to compile a huge list of spells known is its central strength, so giving that ability to another class should be heavily balanced. I'm inclined to agree, since while the bard's spell list is not as large as the wizard's, it is still large enough for the spellbook to make a big difference.

This class also knows one more cantrip than a bard does, and can cast rituals without preparing them. Those, I think, are not trivial bonuses.

People seem to think this class is fairly balanced, maybe a little underpowered. I think that's right where I want it, since I'd rather risk that than risk it being a little overpowered. Furthermore, I think the DM has great ability to modulate the power level of this class by making found scrolls and spellbooks either common or scarce.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone!

[TheOOB]

How is this not just a bard who goes to redmage college?