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supergoji18
2015-01-08, 10:11 AM
I have an idea for a campaign that would involve a very very very very very very very very very very very old Red Dragon as the BBEG. This thing, this abomination against all that is good and holy, would be so old he would probably exceed Great Wyrm classification (keep in mind I don't intend for players to actually fight him until very late in the campaign).

Upon looking up ways to create Dragons beyond Great Wyrms I came Accross this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm
It was very useful for a basic guideline on how to build it. There was only one problem for me: Actually Calculating how many Age Categories above Great Wyrm this Red Dragon would be.

I intend for my Red Dragon to be about 10,000 years old and be the oldest and most powerful Dragon of all. Initially I tried coming up with my own way of calculating virtual age categories, with every 400 years adding one virtual age category. The result... Yikes. I may have went overboard.

To clarify, after doing a bit of calculation, said 10k year old Red Dragon would have enough power to tear the head off of Ao himself and then use said head to beat every living thing into a bloody pulp. The thing actually makes a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon look WIMPY by comparison! Here are some specifics:

HP of 100d12 + 3000 (yes, that's 3 zeros).
Str: 85; Dex: 10; Con: 71; Int: 46; Wis: 47; Cha: 46
Spell Resistance: 72
Caster Level: 59 (I doubt even gods have caster levels that high).
Armor Class: 91 (could anything even hit it?)
Breath Weapons: 64d10 with a Saving DC of 90

... What have I done?

Needless to say, this thing needs nerfing... Quickly. So here are a few questions:

The system that the link was using was 3.5. As 5e is now out, should I not use that link's methods?
What would be a more appropriate number of Age categories that would still make it a significant challenge without making it... This?
Is this actually as overpowered as I believe it is, or am I too much of a noob and it is only marginally more dangerous than a Prismatic Dragon?

Thank you for your input.

Amechra
2015-01-08, 01:22 PM
5e and 3.5e are completely and utterly incompatible, rules-wise.

You vastly overcalculated those stats, though - his stats should be a Great Wyrm Red Dragon plus:

25 HD (8 Age Categories).
Size increases to Colossal+ (no increase to ability scores is listed, so none is gained.).
+25 NA
+16d6 damage for Breath Weapon
+16 to Spell Resistance
Fly Speed +50'.
+16 Str, +16 Con, +8 Cha, +8 Int, +8 Wis, +6 extra points from HD.
DR improves to 15/Epic
8 more feats from HD
+16 to their Caster Level; gains 5 copies of Improved Spell Capacity as bonus feats.
+16 CR.

To stat him out:

Big Bad Evil Dragon
Colossal+ Dragon (Fire)
Hit Dice: 65d12 + 1170 (1592 HP)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 250 ft (clumsy).
Armor Class: 66 (+64 natural, -8 size ), touch 2, flat-footed 66
Base Attack/Grapple: +65/+106
Attack: Bite +82 (6d6+25/x2)
Full Attack: Bite +82 (6d6+25/x2) and 2 Claws +77 (4d8+12/x2) and 2 Wings +77 (3d6+12/x2) and Tail Slap +77 (4d8+12/x2) and Crush +77 (6d6+12/x2) and Tail Sweep +77 (3d6+12/x2)
Space/Reach: 40 ft./30 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon (90ft Cone / 40d6 Fire Damage; Fort DC 60 halves), Spellcasting, Spell-Like Abilities
Special Qualities: Blindsense 60ft, DR 15/Epic, Fire Immunity, Frightful Presence (600ft / Will DC 54 negates), Keen Senses, SR 48, Vulnerability to Cold
Saves: Fort +52, Ref +34, Will +46
Abilities: Str 61, Dex 10, Con 47, Int 34, Wis 35, Cha 34, +6 points allocated anywhere.
Skills: Max ranks in all skills you think are appropriate.
Feats: Improved Spell CapacityB x5, 12 non-Epic feats, 10 Epic feats.
Environment: Warm Mountains
Organization: Unique (Thankfully)
Challenge Rating: 42
Treasure: Triple Standard
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Level Adjustment: -

Spellcasting: Big Bad Evil Dragon casts spells as a 44th level Sorcerer; he knows 9 Cantrips, 5 spells each of 1st and 2nd levels, 4 spells each of 3rd through 5th levels, and 3 spells each of 6th through 9th levels. He may also select Cleric spells, as well as those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains.

His spells per day are as follows:
0 - 9
1 - 12
2 - 12
3 - 12
4 - 12
5 - 11
6 - 11
7 - 11
8 - 11
9 - 10
10 - 10
11 - 10
12 - 10
13 - 9
14 - 9

Spell-Like Abilities: Big Bad Evil Dragon may use the following spell-like abilities: 20/day - Locate Object; 3/day - Suggestion; 1/day - Find the Path, Discern Location



Everything else is as the standard Dragon entry. I'm leaving the customizable stuff up to you! I sincerely, sincerely suggest not using Epic Spellcasting as written; I suggest using this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?37410-Epic-Metamagic-replaces-Epic-Spellcasting) or this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267714-Epic-Spellcasting-Revamp-%28WIP%29). If you use the latter and want an additional Sphere, just ask.

supergoji18
2015-01-08, 02:52 PM
5e and 3.5e are completely and utterly incompatible, rules-wise.

You vastly overcalculated those stats, though - his stats should be a Great Wyrm Red Dragon plus:

25 HD (8 Age Categories).
Size increases to Colossal+ (no increase to ability scores is listed, so none is gained.).
+25 NA
+16d6 damage for Breath Weapon
+16 to Spell Resistance
Fly Speed +50'.
+16 Str, +16 Con, +8 Cha, +8 Int, +8 Wis, +6 extra points from HD.
DR improves to 15/Epic
8 more feats from HD
+16 to their Caster Level; gains 5 copies of Improved Spell Capacity as bonus feats.
+16 CR.

To stat him out:

Big Bad Evil Dragon
Colossal+ Dragon (Fire)
Hit Dice: 65d12 + 1170 (1592 HP)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 250 ft (clumsy).
Armor Class: 66 (+64 natural, -8 size ), touch 2, flat-footed 66
Base Attack/Grapple: +65/+106
Attack: Bite +82 (6d6+25/x2)
Full Attack: Bite +82 (6d6+25/x2) and 2 Claws +77 (4d8+12/x2) and 2 Wings +77 (3d6+12/x2) and Tail Slap +77 (4d8+12/x2) and Crush +77 (6d6+12/x2) and Tail Sweep +77 (3d6+12/x2)
Space/Reach: 40 ft./30 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon (90ft Cone / 40d6 Fire Damage; Fort DC 60 halves), Spellcasting, Spell-Like Abilities
Special Qualities: Blindsense 60ft, DR 15/Epic, Fire Immunity, Frightful Presence (600ft / Will DC 54 negates), Keen Senses, SR 48, Vulnerability to Cold
Saves: Fort +52, Ref +34, Will +46
Abilities: Str 61, Dex 10, Con 47, Int 34, Wis 35, Cha 34, +6 points allocated anywhere.
Skills: Max ranks in all skills you think are appropriate.
Feats: Improved Spell CapacityB x5, 12 non-Epic feats, 10 Epic feats.
Environment: Warm Mountains
Organization: Unique (Thankfully)
Challenge Rating: 42
Treasure: Triple Standard
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Level Adjustment: -

Spellcasting: Big Bad Evil Dragon casts spells as a 44th level Sorcerer; he knows 9 Cantrips, 5 spells each of 1st and 2nd levels, 4 spells each of 3rd through 5th levels, and 3 spells each of 6th through 9th levels. He may also select Cleric spells, as well as those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains.

His spells per day are as follows:
0 - 9
1 - 12
2 - 12
3 - 12
4 - 12
5 - 11
6 - 11
7 - 11
8 - 11
9 - 10
10 - 10
11 - 10
12 - 10
13 - 9
14 - 9

Spell-Like Abilities: Big Bad Evil Dragon may use the following spell-like abilities: 20/day - Locate Object; 3/day - Suggestion; 1/day - Find the Path, Discern Location



Everything else is as the standard Dragon entry. I'm leaving the customizable stuff up to you! I sincerely, sincerely suggest not using Epic Spellcasting as written; I suggest using this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?37410-Epic-Metamagic-replaces-Epic-Spellcasting) or this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267714-Epic-Spellcasting-Revamp-%28WIP%29). If you use the latter and want an additional Sphere, just ask.
Did I really calculate that badly? Wow, I feel silly.

Thanks for the help by the way :)

Quick Question though: can he use any clerical spell, or only. Select few?

Amechra
2015-01-08, 03:08 PM
He can select Cleric spells as spells known (the actual text is ambiguous, but I think spontaneously casting from the entire Cleric list is so insane is so insane in terms of power and work that you might as well toss that limitation on (to be fair to your players.)).

Some later books added some options to diversify dragons; Dragons of Eberron, especially, included Sovereign Archetypes, which replace a Dragon's ability to learn spells from the Cleric spell list and their additional domains with the ability to draw from a separate list. They can be everything from "can learn spells from the Druid list" to "reduce their HD to d10s but increase their Sorcerer level by 2" to "Just replace the domains with two or three other pre-chosen domains."

You could come up with a unique one that changes the domains to something more appropriate and use it to set apart him and his offspring.

EDIT: Dragon Magic also has a few options to replace Frightful Presence with, as well as replacing the SLAs for a Red Dragon (other than Locate Object) with Detect Thoughts 3/day, Mass Suggestion 1/day, and Mass Charm Monster 1/day.

supergoji18
2015-01-08, 04:02 PM
He can select Cleric spells as spells known (the actual text is ambiguous, but I think spontaneously casting from the entire Cleric list is so insane is so insane in terms of power and work that you might as well toss that limitation on (to be fair to your players.)).

Some later books added some options to diversify dragons; Dragons of Eberron, especially, included Sovereign Archetypes, which replace a Dragon's ability to learn spells from the Cleric spell list and their additional domains with the ability to draw from a separate list. They can be everything from "can learn spells from the Druid list" to "reduce their HD to d10s but increase their Sorcerer level by 2" to "Just replace the domains with two or three other pre-chosen domains."

You could come up with a unique one that changes the domains to something more appropriate and use it to set apart him and his offspring.

EDIT: Dragon Magic also has a few options to replace Frightful Presence with, as well as replacing the SLAs for a Red Dragon (other than Locate Object) with Detect Thoughts 3/day, Mass Suggestion 1/day, and Mass Charm Monster 1/day.
Well he is 10,000 years old though. Even by Dragon standards that's rediculously old (IIRC, the longest most dragons live is a little past 4000). So Maybe access to the better half of the Cleric list is warranted?

I'm very new to D&D, especially to 5e, so a lot of the more complicated things like making unique monsters are confusing for me sometimes. Hence creating that rediculous abomination I posted the first time. A perfect example of my noobiness: I didn't know spells went past 9th level. So I need as much help with making these guys as possible.

Amechra
2015-01-08, 04:29 PM
Realistically, there'll only be a dozen or so spells you'll want from the Cleric list that aren't on the Sorcerer list; if you are really feeling strapped for spells, there's an Epic feat (Spell Knowledge) that gives you two more spells known of any level.

Spells only go up to 9th Level; there's an Epic feat that allows you buy spell slots of higher levels (so you can cast metamagic'd spells from them.)

And just to set things straight: I've been talking exclusively in terms of 3.5 mechanics; your last post is making me think that you actually want this guy for a 5e game, correct?

Because in that case, I apologize for confusing you and I'll whip up a 5e version of the Bag Bad Evil Dragon; I'll even give you a breakdown of the process so you can take some tips from it.

Edit: I just noticed the tag says 5e/Next. Yeesh, I need to get my glasses fixed. Mr. Big Bad Dragon for 5e is coming up!

supergoji18
2015-01-08, 05:07 PM
Realistically, there'll only be a dozen or so spells you'll want from the Cleric list that aren't on the Sorcerer list; if you are really feeling strapped for spells, there's an Epic feat (Spell Knowledge) that gives you two more spells known of any level.

Spells only go up to 9th Level; there's an Epic feat that allows you buy spell slots of higher levels (so you can cast metamagic'd spells from them.)

And just to set things straight: I've been talking exclusively in terms of 3.5 mechanics; your last post is making me think that you actually want this guy for a 5e game, correct?

Because in that case, I apologize for confusing you and I'll whip up a 5e version of the Bag Bad Evil Dragon; I'll even give you a breakdown of the process so you can take some tips from it.

Edit: I just noticed the tag says 5e/Next. Yeesh, I need to get my glasses fixed. Mr. Big Bad Dragon for 5e is coming up!
Thanks :D

Do you want me to give you a background about this character so you could make it more accurately?

Amechra
2015-01-08, 05:30 PM
That would be great; again, sorry for confusing you earlier (I'm a bit distracted today.)

supergoji18
2015-01-08, 05:43 PM
That would be great; again, sorry for confusing you earlier (I'm a bit distracted today.)

Well the world I am having this Dragon be in is a sort of "After the End" + "Resistance" + "Dragons" theme. The world is based on the Forgotten Relams, but many of the gods are dead and those left alive are pretty much the big name evil ones.

Story in summary: Gods went to war, majority of them died and so the world went to pot. In the chaos, the Chromatic Dragons seize the opportunity and take over the world, enforcing their rule through a brutal regime. This 10,000 year old Red Dragon is meant to be the absolute ruler of the entire regime. The oldest and most powerful dragon- nay, the most powerful THING on the face of the Prime Material Plane.

It should also be noted that in this setting, Tiamat managed to become co-ruler of the universe with Asmodeus. She sees this guy as the chosen ruler of her children, born to unite them. So if you can think of any benefit that would bring statwise, add it.

Name is yet to be determined. I was thinking of Klauth, but that name is already taken. My second choice would be Alhazrah. What do you think?

Edit: As a political leader, he should probably have a higher than normal Charisma for a dragon.

Gnomes2169
2015-01-08, 06:38 PM
Wait... you're making a 5e dragon? Then why are you using the 3.5e stats, age categories and progression for your dragon?

In 5e the highest dragon age category is Ancient, the largest size is Gargantuan. In 5e the size of the creature determines the size of their hit die as well, creature type is divorced from it a bit. Gargantuan is the largest size category because the d20 (the hit die associated with gargantuan creatures) is the largest die that can be calculated for easily (I'd probably give them another 10-14 HD, increasing the HP of the red dragon from around 656 to 861 for 10 HD or 943 for 14 HD IIRC). There is also a stat cap of 30 for monsters in 5e, which red dragons reach for strength and constitution at the ancient age category (so no str increase is possible as far as the rules of the game go), but damage for a larger (wyrm or great wyrm) red could be increased regardless by doubling the fire damage each of their natural attacks deal, and the other ability scores could be increased by 2-3 apiece without real difficulty. As well, the damage of the breath weapon would likely increase by a good 6d10-8d10, the CR would likely increase by 4-6 (increasing all of their DC's by +1-2 and attack bonus by +1-2, as well as giving the dragon access to level 9 spell slots (the highest in game ATM) if you use the draconic spellcasting variant.)

In other words, this thing would be hilariously overpowered in the 5e system... still killable by a suitably determined/ overpowered party, but nearly godlike. In fact, the dragon would have more HP than Tiamat, and would likely only lose because she would be immune to its breath and the elemental damage on its natural weapons. I can build the actual creature block for a 5e wyrm if you wanted/ don't have the monster manual yourself.

supergoji18
2015-01-08, 06:51 PM
Wait... you're making a 5e dragon? Then why are you using the 3.5e stats, age categories and progression for your dragon?

In 5e the highest dragon age category is Ancient, the largest size is Gargantuan. In 5e the size of the creature determines the size of their hit die as well, creature type is divorced from it a bit. Gargantuan is the largest size category because the d20 (the hit die associated with gargantuan creatures) is the largest die that can be calculated for easily (I'd probably give them another 10-14 HD, increasing the HP of the red dragon from around 656 to 861 for 10 HD or 943 for 14 HD IIRC). There is also a stat cap of 30 for monsters in 5e, which red dragons reach for strength and constitution at the ancient age category (so no str increase is possible as far as the rules of the game go), but damage for a larger (wyrm or great wyrm) red could be increased regardless by doubling the fire damage each of their natural attacks deal, and the other ability scores could be increased by 2-3 apiece without real difficulty. As well, the damage of the breath weapon would likely increase by a good 6d10-8d10, the CR would likely increase by 4-6 (increasing all of their DC's by +1-2 and attack bonus by +1-2, as well as giving the dragon access to level 9 spell slots (the highest in game ATM) if you use the draconic spellcasting variant.)

In other words, this thing would be hilariously overpowered in the 5e system... still killable by a suitably determined/ overpowered party, but nearly godlike. In fact, the dragon would have more HP than Tiamat, and would likely only lose because she would be immune to its breath and the elemental damage on its natural weapons. I can build the actual creature block for a 5e wyrm if you wanted/ don't have the monster manual yourself.
Like I said, I'm new to it. I ordered the Monster Manual and Core Rulebooks only a few days ago and am still waiting for them to come in. I just assumed that 3.5 would be similar enough to 5e that I could use the same system of creating Dragons. I take it Ancient is the same as Great Wyrm?

The person who first commented has offered to create the creature for me, but thank you for the offer :smallsmile:

Only 30? That feels a tad limited, especially for monsters. I would think 50 would be suitable for a cap on monsters.

Amechra
2015-01-08, 08:52 PM
Stats only go up to 30 in 5e; it's a hard cap on the numbers in the system.

And the only reason that there are 3.5 stats up there is because I screwed up; if you want to jump ahead of me and do it, go right ahead (I'm working on a different project at the moment, and shouldn't get to the dragon for until maybe tomorrow.)

Gnomes2169
2015-01-09, 12:32 AM
So then, here we go! Making a Great Wyrm (red) based on the requests given... And yes, 30 is the limit. Much like in 2e, where anything above 19 was reserved for magic-pumping monters, and anything above 23 was for demi-gods and dragons. :smalltongue:

Klauth; Tiamat's will
Gargantuan dragon, lawful evil

Armor class: 24
Hit points: 779 (38d20+380)
Speed: 40 ft, climb 40 ft, fly 80 ft

StrDexConIntWisCha
30 (+10)10 (+0)30 (+10)23 (+6)20 (+5)28 (+9)

Saving throws: Dex: +8, Con +18, Wis +13, Cha +17
Skills: Perception +21, Stealth +8
Damage resistances: Bludgeoning, slashing and piercing from non-magic weapons
Damage immunities: Fire
Senses: Blindsight 60 ft, darkvision 120 ft, passive perception 31
Languages: Abyssal, common, draconic
Challenge: 28 (120,000)

Legendary resistance (5/Day): If the dragon fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.

Magic resistance: The dragon has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

Magical weapons: The dragon's natural weapons are magic weapon attacks.

Searing flames: Fire damage the dragon deals ignores resistance to fire damage that creatures it damages may happen to possess.

Actions
Multiattack: The dragon can use its Frightful Presence. It then makes three attacks; one with its bite and two with its claws.

Bite: Melee weapon attack: +18 to hit, reach 20 ft, one target. Hit: 26 (3d10+10) piercing damage plus 21 (6d6) fire damage.

Claw: Melee weapon attack: +18 to hit, reach 15 ft, one target. Hit: 20 (3d6+10) slashing damage plus 7 (2d6) fire damage.

Tail: Melee weapon attack: +18 to hit, reach 25 ft, one target. Hit: 23 (3d8+10) bludgeoning damage plus 7 (2d6) fire damage.

Frightful Presence: Each creature of the dragon's choice that is within 120 ft of the dragon must succeed on a DC 25 wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature's saving throw is successful or the efect ends for it, the creature is immune to the dragon's frightful presence for the next 24 hours.

Fire breath (Recharge 5-6): The dragon exhales fire in a 90 ft cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 26 dexterity saving throw , taking 119 (34d6) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Legendary actions:
The dragon can take 5 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. The dragon regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.

Detect: The dragon makes a Wisdom (Perception) check.
Tail attack: The dragon makes a tail attack.
Wing attack: The dragon beats its wings. Each creature within 25 ft of the dragon must succeed on a DC 26 saving throw or take 24 (4d6+10) bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone. The dragon can then fly up to half of its flying speed.

Klauth and the Draconic Spellcasting Variant:
Klauth, being the vestal of Tiamat's glory and power, is far more blessed and powerful than his lesser draconic brethren. While this is reflected in his statistic block (see above), this also means that, if you decide he should have studied magic in his history, he will be far more powerful than most other dragons who are granted the spellcasting variant. In fact, the power spike grnted to Klauth may not fully fit within the confines of the CR/ EXP cost system. As such, while it may fit thematically, one should be incredibly cautious when applying this variant and select spells very, very cautiously when you do so. Below are Klauth's spellcasting capabilities, and recommendations for a thematic list of spells he has prepared at any time:

Draconic spellcasting: (Spell attack bonus +17, spell save DC 25 (charisma based))
Maximum spell level 9. Spells prepared/ day 8.
Suggested spells (each 1/day): Dominate monster, force cage, foresight, gate, haste, plane shift, scrying, power word stun, word of recall

Looking over the background given, Klauth doesn't really seem like he would rely on spells to actually kill people. He's a dragon, he doesn't need to use spells to kill people. He gives me the impression of being incredibly cunning, self-serving and paranoid about his safety, and that's what his spell list is built around.

Foresight keeps him safe by imposing disadvantage on enemy attack rolls for 8 hours a day, while also granting him advantage on his own attack rolls and saving throws. Haste makes him incredibly fast, especially while flying, and lets him smack people more. Word of recall (with the destination rune being in his throne room) will be his first panic button if he needs to escape because his other methods of survival failed him, and plane shift is his second (allowing him to retreat to hell to his mother's side).

Being cunning, he likes to study his potential major enemies with scrying, locks down key targets with power word stun (likely a wizard, sorcerer or rogue) and... foresight and haste are just powerful in-combat options.

He's also a self-serving arrogant prick, and likes to lock people in force cages so that he can monologue (or split up an attack force/ give himself time to escape) and dominate his foes to make them do little dances for his amusement with dominate monster.

supergoji18
2015-01-09, 12:29 PM
So then, here we go! Making a Great Wyrm (red) based on the requests given... And yes, 30 is the limit. Much like in 2e, where anything above 19 was reserved for magic-pumping monters, and anything above 23 was for demi-gods and dragons. :smalltongue:

Klauth; Tiamat's will
Gargantuan dragon, chaotic evil

Armor class: 24
Hit points: 779 (38d20+380)
Speed: 40 ft, climb 40 ft, fly 80 ft

StrDexConIntWisCha
30 (+10)10 (+0)30 (+10)21 (+5)18 (+4)27 (+8)

Saving throws: Dex: +9, Con +19, Wis +13, Cha +17
Skills: Perception +22, Stealth +9
Damage resistances: Bludgeoning, slashing and piercing from non-magic weapons
Damage immunities: Fire
Senses: Blindsight 60 ft, darkvision 120 ft, passive perception 32
Languages: Abyssal, common, draconic
Challenge: 28 (120,000)

Legendary resistance (5/Day): If the dragon fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.

Magic resistance: The dragon has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

Magical weapons: The dragon's natural weapons are magic weapon attacks.

Searing flames: Fire damage the dragon deals ignores resistance to fire damage that creatures it damages may happen to possess.

Actions
Multiattack: The dragon can use its Frightful Presence. It then makes three attacks; one with its bite and two with its claws.

Bite: Melee weapon attack: +19 to hit, reach 20 ft, one target. Hit: 26 (3d10+10) piercing damage plus 21 (6d6) fire damage.

Claw: Melee weapon attack: +19 to hit, reach 15 ft, one target. Hit: 20 (3d6+10) slashing damage plus 7 (2d6) fire damage.

Tail: Melee weapon attack: +19 to hit, reach 25 ft, one target. Hit: 23 (3d8+10) bludgeoning damage plus 7 (2d6) fire damage.

Frightful Presence: Each creature of the dragon's choice that is within 120 ft of the dragon must succeed on a DC 25 wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature's saving throw is successful or the efect ends for it, the creature is immune to the dragon's frightful presence for the next 24 hours.

Fire breath (Recharge 5-6): The dragon exhales fire in a 90 ft cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 27 dexterity saving throw , taking 119 (34d6) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Legendary actions:
The dragon can take 5 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. The dragon regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.

Detect: The dragon makes a Wisdom (Perception) check.
Tail attack: The dragon makes a tail attack.
Wing attack: The dragon beats its wings. Each creature within 25 ft of the dragon must succeed on a DC 27 saving throw or take 24 (4d6+10) bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone. The dragon can then fly up to half of its flying speed.

Klauth and the Draconic Spellcasting Variant:
Klauth, being the vestal of Tiamat's glory and power, is far more blessed and powerful than his lesser draconic brethren. While this is reflected in his statistic block (see above), this also means that, if you decide he should have studied magic in his history, he will be far more powerful than most other dragons who are granted the spellcasting variant. In fact, the power spike grnted to Klauth may not fully fit within the confines of the CR/ EXP cost system. As such, while it may fit thematically, one should be incredibly cautious when applying this variant and select spells very, very cautiously when you do so. Below are Klauth's spellcasting capabilities, and recommendations for a thematic list of spells he has prepared at any time:

Draconic spellcasting: (Spell attack bonus +17, spell save DC 25 (charisma based))
Maximum spell level 9. Spells prepared/ day 8.
Suggested spells (each 1/day): Dominate monster, force cage, foresight, haste, plane shift, scrying, power word stun, word of recall

Looking over the background given, Klauth doesn't really seem like he would rely on spells to actually kill people. He's a dragon, he doesn't need to use spells to kill people. He gives me the impression of being incredibly cunning, self-serving and paranoid about his safety, and that's what his spell list is built around.

Foresight keeps him safe by imposing disadvantage on enemy attack rolls for 8 hours a day, while also granting him advantage on his own attack rolls and saving throws. Haste makes him incredibly fast, especially while flying, and lets him smack people more. Word of recall (with the destination rune being in his throne room) will be his first panic button if he needs to escape because his other methods of survival failed him, and plane shift is his second (allowing him to retreat to hell to his mother's side).

Being cunning, he likes to study his potential major enemies with scrying, locks down key targets with power word stun (likely a wizard, sorcerer or rogue) and... foresight and haste are just powerful in-combat options.

He's also a self-serving arrogant prick, and likes to lock people in force cages so that he can monologue (or split up an attack force/ give himself time to escape) and dominate his foes to make them do little dances for his amusement with dominate monster.


So then, draft 1 complete. Comments from the rest of the thread?
Wow... That's... Thank you!!!!!!

Are there any spells and/or abilities (asside from his fire breath) that would give him some sort of "Fire Storm" power? I kind of want something like that in him to make it his most distinguishing feature (as a way to show just how powerful and active he is, as part of the story I was going to have him single handedly destroy an entire rebellious village with this spell/ability).

The way I envisioned Klauth is very similar to what you described. He isn't like most Ancient Reds, in that he doesn't really care to gloat or boast. In his eyes, actions speak louder than words. This would give him a no-nonsense style that would make him a terrifyingly efficient enemy. He would be closer to Lawful Evil than Chaotic Evil like most of his kind is. And while he is most certainly paranoid and careful, the only thing he fears more than death is losing control. And in his mind, fear makes control easier. So he often makes his more terrifying actions a public show, that way no one can deny his power (hence the village scene I plan on having.)

Yes, he would most certainly study Arcane Magic within the 10,000 years of his lifetime. I wanted him to be a scholar as well as a fighter, combining his knowledge of tactics and magic with his already fearsome Draconic might.

I think the only thing I would change is that his Charisma would be at maximum. That way, he has the highest possible spell casting abilities for his kind. Also, maybe an Intelligence of 25 and a Wisdom of either 20 to 22, to show off how intelligent and perceptive he is.

Quick Question: Do Red Dragons still keep the vulnerability to Cold they did from previous editions? If they do, do you think Klauth should have his weakness removed/nerfed? I would imagine a dragon as cautious as Klauth would make sure that no one could use such a blatantly obvious (and quite significant) weakness as that against him, and would at least take some steps to making sure that weakness is patched up.

Gnomes2169
2015-01-09, 11:16 PM
Wow... That's... Thank you!!!!!!

Are there any spells and/or abilities (asside from his fire breath) that would give him some sort of "Fire Storm" power? I kind of want something like that in him to make it his most distinguishing feature (as a way to show just how powerful and active he is, as part of the story I was going to have him single handedly destroy an entire rebellious village with this spell/ability).

The way I envisioned Klauth is very similar to what you described. He isn't like most Ancient Reds, in that he doesn't really care to gloat or boast. In his eyes, actions speak louder than words. This would give him a no-nonsense style that would make him a terrifyingly efficient enemy. He would be closer to Lawful Evil than Chaotic Evil like most of his kind is. And while he is most certainly paranoid and careful, the only thing he fears more than death is losing control. And in his mind, fear makes control easier. So he often makes his more terrifying actions a public show, that way no one can deny his power (hence the village scene I plan on having.)

Yes, he would most certainly study Arcane Magic within the 10,000 years of his lifetime. I wanted him to be a scholar as well as a fighter, combining his knowledge of tactics and magic with his already fearsome Draconic might.

I think the only thing I would change is that his Charisma would be at maximum. That way, he has the highest possible spell casting abilities for his kind. Also, maybe an Intelligence of 25 and a Wisdom of either 20 to 22, to show off how intelligent and perceptive he is.

Quick Question: Do Red Dragons still keep the vulnerability to Cold they did from previous editions? If they do, do you think Klauth should have his weakness removed/nerfed? I would imagine a dragon as cautious as Klauth would make sure that no one could use such a blatantly obvious (and quite significant) weakness as that against him, and would at least take some steps to making sure that weakness is patched up.

The fire storm could be Meteor storm rather easily (one casting makes 4 40x40 zones that deal 20d6 blugeoning and 20d6 fire damage (dexterity save for half)), but he doesn't have to have it prepared at all times to cast it. Like a prepared caster, dragons with the spellcasting variant can memorize new spells every day. The difference is, their spells are cast from the lowest slot a spell would use (so haste is cast at level 3, not level 9), they can only cast each one once... And they can take spells from any spell list. So when you get your phb, look through the back to find if there are some more spells that you like in there.

The fear aura as-is works for the terror-inspiring part of him, and I can rather easily change the alignment to Lawful Evil.

The spell list I gave him would demonstrate the warrior/ scholar aspect (most of the spells are control/ survivability, with foresight and haste augmenting his already-fearsome draconic capabilities).

A 30 charisma would put him 7 points ahead of an ancient red dragon, and make his dragon fear/ spell saves in the nigh-impossible range fore resistance without proficiency in the proper saving throw, maximum stats and a paladin or bard giving you a bonus, and it would give Klauth 10 spells of any level to play with (the number of spells dragons can prepare is determined by their charisma bonus). As well, a 30 charisma is held by only one monster so far... Tiamat. Raising a mental stat on a mortal creature to equal that of their patron god is something that I am leary to do... His intelligence and wisdom should probably cap out at 22 and 20 respectively for that same reason. However, the choice is still yours (of course)

Red dragons in 5e (and in fact all dragons) lost their elemental vulnerabilities. So they basically have no weaknesses as it stands, just places where they are less-overpowered. :smalltongue:

supergoji18
2015-01-09, 11:35 PM
The fire storm could be Meteor storm rather easily (one casting makes 4 40x40 zones that deal 20d6 blugeoning and 20d6 fire damage (dexterity save for half)), but he doesn't have to have it prepared at all times to cast it. Like a prepared caster, dragons with the spellcasting variant can memorize new spells every day. The difference is, their spells are cast from the lowest slot a spell would use (so haste is cast at level 3, not level 9), they can only cast each one once... And they can take spells from any spell list. So when you get your phb, look through the back to find if there are some more spells that you like in there.

The fear aura as-is works for the terror-inspiring part of him, and I can rather easily change the alignment to Lawful Evil.

The spell list I gave him would demonstrate the warrior/ scholar aspect (most of the spells are control/ survivability, with foresight and haste augmenting his already-fearsome draconic capabilities).

A 30 charisma would put him 7 points ahead of an ancient red dragon, and make his dragon fear/ spell saves in the nigh-impossible range fore resistance without proficiency in the proper saving throw, maximum stats and a paladin or bard giving you a bonus, and it would give Klauth 10 spells of any level to play with (the number of spells dragons can prepare is determined by their charisma bonus). As well, a 30 charisma is held by only one monster so far... Tiamat. Raising a mental stat on a mortal creature to equal that of their patron god is something that I am leary to do... His intelligence and wisdom should probably cap out at 22 and 20 respectively for that same reason. However, the choice is still yours (of course)

Red dragons in 5e (and in fact all dragons) lost their elemental vulnerabilities. So they basically have no weaknesses as it stands, just places where they are less-overpowered. :smalltongue:
Oh! That sounds neat! Like a red version of Alduin! :smallamused:

Ok then, now about 23 Intelligence, 20 Wisdom, and 28 Charisma? A bit more potent, but not insurmountable.

That's actually kind of terrifying to know, considering that the only time I was ever able to beat a Red Dragon was in NWN with a Wizard blasting about 100 Cone of Colds at it (and that was only AFTER using an orb on him that brought him to about 1/4 health).

Gnomes2169
2015-01-10, 12:26 AM
Oh! That sounds neat! Like a red version of Alduin! :smallamused:

Ok then, now about 23 Intelligence, 20 Wisdom, and 28 Charisma? A bit more potent, but not insurmountable.

That's actually kind of terrifying to know, considering that the only time I was ever able to beat a Red Dragon was in NWN with a Wizard blasting about 100 Cone of Colds at it (and that was only AFTER using an orb on him that brought him to about 1/4 health).

23 int, 20 wis and 28 cha work... though the last one changes some DC's around, and you get a 9th spell prepared. For the 9th spell, perhaps a Gate to summon minions to assist him once in a while? As a dragon, he doesn't need to pay component costs (making Gate a more than viable option). Because dragons are overpowered. As well, it could be exchanged for Meteor Swarm as necessary to inspire awe and horror in all the rebels he wants.

I remember playing Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn and having to fight Firekragg... and needing to replay it 20 times so that ONE of my clerics and my player character survived. He was one of the hardest bosses in the game besides Irrenicus, and he was just able to "Nope!" magic. I figured out the best way to kill him was to blast him with 3 lower-resistances (after my casters hit level 12), slapping him with two dispell magics and then hoping my melee could handle his horrifying DPS with healing potions +their hasted, stoneskinned and otherwise uber-buffed DPS... and I would still lose at least half of my team.

5e dragons are kind of like that again. It's sort of scary.

supergoji18
2015-01-10, 07:47 AM
23 int, 20 wis and 28 cha work... though the last one changes some DC's around, and you get a 9th spell prepared. For the 9th spell, perhaps a Gate to summon minions to assist him once in a while? As a dragon, he doesn't need to pay component costs (making Gate a more than viable option). Because dragons are overpowered. As well, it could be exchanged for Meteor Swarm as necessary to inspire awe and horror in all the rebels he wants.

I remember playing Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn and having to fight Firekragg... and needing to replay it 20 times so that ONE of my clerics and my player character survived. He was one of the hardest bosses in the game besides Irrenicus, and he was just able to "Nope!" magic. I figured out the best way to kill him was to blast him with 3 lower-resistances (after my casters hit level 12), slapping him with two dispell magics and then hoping my melee could handle his horrifying DPS with healing potions +their hasted, stoneskinned and otherwise uber-buffed DPS... and I would still lose at least half of my team.

5e dragons are kind of like that again. It's sort of scary.
I think what I'll do is give him Gate as the 9th level spell and give him a Meteor Swarm/Fire Storm as a spell-like ability.

So he can only use each spell once per day? And what gets changed and by how much?

I haven't played BG2 yet, though I will certainly keep that in mind when do get it.

I think the fight that was by a mile the absolute worst fight of all for me was in the final chapter of NWN. You see, in that game being a wizard is a BAD thing (slight mechanic changes caused them to be significantly less effective than they are in PnP, and they actually begin to be outclassed by Melee classes somewhere around level 15. Also, finding scrolls to scribe in NWN is like finding a needle in a haystack). And I was a Wizard, thinking my arcane might would be enough to handle any challenge. Then the game threw two Great Wyrms at me... Two... At once... Needless to say, it was not a fun day. I won only by reloading about a million times, getting VERY lucky with will saves, and very lucky on my damage rolls for Greater Missle Storm (unique spell for that game. Think Magic Missle, but as the single most powerful offensive spell in the game). Of course that didn't even come close to the frustration I faced when I went to face Morag... With no spells. Couldn't rest in the final area, couldnt get out and find a proper resting spot, and Morag was immune to literally everything. I still have not won that match yet...

Gnomes2169
2015-01-10, 04:00 PM
I think what I'll do is give him Gate as the 9th level spell and give him a Meteor Swarm/Fire Storm as a spell-like ability.

So he can only use each spell once per day? And what gets changed and by how much?

Giving him a spell-like ability would likely raise his effective CR to 29 even without the spell casting variant... if you want to add it then you can (of course) do so without any real difficulty, but still, I recommend making it a spell that you have him swap out with Scry/ Gate as-needed.

Yes, dragons can cast each of their prepped spells once per long rest, limiting the spamability slightly. However, they can change any (or all) of their spells at any time they want for spells from any spell list. The maximum spell level they can prep to is equal to 1/3 their CR (so a CR 12 dragon can get up to 4 spells, while a CR 27+ can memorize any spell below level 9... so any spell in the game currently), and they can prepare a number of spells equal to their charisma bonus. So Klauth could technically have 9 level 9 spells prepped at any given moment with his current setup... but giving him that would make me disappointed in myself and make me feel a bit icky (besides, there is more synergy with the lower-level spells than with what level 9's can offer alone).


I haven't played BG2 yet, though I will certainly keep that in mind when do get it.

I think the fight that was by a mile the absolute worst fight of all for me was in the final chapter of NWN. You see, in that game being a wizard is a BAD thing (slight mechanic changes caused them to be significantly less effective than they are in PnP, and they actually begin to be outclassed by Melee classes somewhere around level 15. Also, finding scrolls to scribe in NWN is like finding a needle in a haystack). And I was a Wizard, thinking my arcane might would be enough to handle any challenge. Then the game threw two Great Wyrms at me... Two... At once... Needless to say, it was not a fun day. I won only by reloading about a million times, getting VERY lucky with will saves, and very lucky on my damage rolls for Greater Missle Storm (unique spell for that game. Think Magic Missle, but as the single most powerful offensive spell in the game). Of course that didn't even come close to the frustration I faced when I went to face Morag... With no spells. Couldn't rest in the final area, couldnt get out and find a proper resting spot, and Morag was immune to literally everything. I still have not won that match yet...

I do suggest getting BG2 and BG2 Throne of Bhaal. If you want more fun things, you can get the enhanced edition from Beamdog. If you want the original game (for a bit cheaper I think...) then go look at GoG. Much fun will be had, though warning... it's 2e. I'm not sure if NWN is 3.0/3.5, but that might throw you for a bit of a loop if they are.

And I haven't played NWN yet... it's still on my to-do list. :smallredface:

supergoji18
2015-01-10, 11:22 PM
Giving him a spell-like ability would likely raise his effective CR to 29 even without the spell casting variant... if you want to add it then you can (of course) do so without any real difficulty, but still, I recommend making it a spell that you have him swap out with Scry/ Gate as-needed.

Yes, dragons can cast each of their prepped spells once per long rest, limiting the spamability slightly. However, they can change any (or all) of their spells at any time they want for spells from any spell list. The maximum spell level they can prep to is equal to 1/3 their CR (so a CR 12 dragon can get up to 4 spells, while a CR 27+ can memorize any spell below level 9... so any spell in the game currently), and they can prepare a number of spells equal to their charisma bonus. So Klauth could technically have 9 level 9 spells prepped at any given moment with his current setup... but giving him that would make me disappointed in myself and make me feel a bit icky (besides, there is more synergy with the lower-level spells than with what level 9's can offer alone).



I do suggest getting BG2 and BG2 Throne of Bhaal. If you want more fun things, you can get the enhanced edition from Beamdog. If you want the original game (for a bit cheaper I think...) then go look at GoG. Much fun will be had, though warning... it's 2e. I'm not sure if NWN is 3.0/3.5, but that might throw you for a bit of a loop if they are.

And I haven't played NWN yet... it's still on my to-do list. :smallredface:
Ok, thank you for your help :)

NWN uses 3.0, NWN2 uses 3.5. Here's a tip: be a cleric. They rediculously overpowered in that game. I would recommend multi classing as one level of fighter/barbarian or 3 in paladin (for the bonus feats), 20 in cleric, and the rest as either blackguard (Scarry offensive bonuses) or champion of Torm (huge defensive buffs). And be Human. Not much reason to be anything else, and dat bonus feat!

Gnomes2169
2015-01-11, 03:39 PM
Just posting to note that the proficiency bonus on the Klauth I designed was slightly off. It should have been +8, not +9. Carry on.