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pibby
2015-01-12, 10:19 PM
Here's my attempt at 'porting' the Pathfinder Magus into 5e. The name and flavor of the subclass is inspired by what I've read on Faerun's Knight of the Weave. I don't have Paladin Oaths yet for this subclass so please drop a suggestion and I'll credit you if I decide to use it.
Amechra has a different take on the Oath of the Weave here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392802-My-Version-of-the-Oath-of-the-Weave-Paladin-Subclass)

Oath Spells
lvl 1: Grease, Hex
lvl 2: Mirror Image, Misty Step
lvl 3: Counterspell, Haste
lvl 4: Evard's Black Tentacles, Dimension Door
lvl 5: Cloudkill, Wall of Force

Oath Powers

Lvl 3 Spell Combat
You may use your Channel Divinity to grant yourself the ability to make one attack as a bonus action after casting a spell.
You may use your Channel Divinity to cast a spell that normally takes an action to instead cast it as a bonus action prior to or right after you use your action to attack this turn.


Lvl 3 Knowledge Pool
You may spend your Channel Divinity anytime to bring any one Wizard spell to your mind as you pull inspiration from the Weave. The spell is added to and does not count against your list of spells prepared and spell list. You forget the spell after you cast it or 1 minute, whichever takes longer. The spellís level canít be higher than a spell level that a paladin of your level can cast. Ask your DM about whether or not you may pick spells with a range of Self.
After a short or long rest you may use your Channel Divinity to bring any one Wizard spell to your mind upon meditating on the Weave. The spell is added to and does not count against your list of spells prepared and spell list. You forget the spell after a short or long rest as it leaves your mind at that time. The spellís level canít be higher than a spell level that a paladin of your level can cast. Ask your DM about whether or not you may pick spells with a range of Self.


Lvl 7 Aura of Eldritch Resistance
All allies within the paladinís 10 ft aura that failed on a saving throw against a spellís initial effects can roll the next saving throws against that spell with advantage when the spell offers another saving throw after the first one.
The aura expands to 30 ft at 18th level.
Lvl 7 Aura of Spell Bending
All allies within the paladinís 10 ft aura that are targeted by a spell may redirect the spell after making a successful save against it. The spellís new target must be adjacent to the ally but cannot be the character that originally casted the spell. That new target must make a save against the spell as if the spell originally targeted him.


Lvl 15 Arcane Recovery
You have learned to regain some of your magical energy by meditating on the Weave. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than half your paladin level (rounded up), and none of the slots can be 6th level or higher.

Lvl 20 Ultimate Magus
You have finally been granted the honor to gain direct knowledge from the Weave for one time only. Choose two cantrips and two spells of each spell level up to 5th level from any spellcasting classesí lists. Add those cantrips and spells to your paladin spell list.
You have achieved such mastery over certain spells that you can cast them at will. Choose a 1st-level spell and a 2nd-level from your paladin list. You can cast those spells at their lowest level without expending a spell slot when you have them prepared. If you want to cast either spell at a higher level, you must expend a spell slot as normal. By spending 8 hours meditating on the Weave, you can exchange one or both of the spells you chose for different spells of the same levels.
You may use Spell Combat without using your Channel Divinity. You also choose two spells of each spell level up to 5th level from any spellcasting classesí lists. Add those spells to your paladin spell list.

Leuku
2015-01-13, 07:41 AM
Oath Spells
lvl 1: Grease, Hex
lvl 2: Mirror Image, Misty Step
lvl 3: Counterspell, Haste
lvl 4: Evard's Black Tentacles, Dimension Door
lvl 5: Cloudkill, Wall of Force

I'll comment on the spell list at a different time.


Lvl 3 Spell Combat
You may use your Channel Divinity to cast a spell that normally takes an action to instead cast it as a bonus action prior to or right after you use your action to attack this turn.

This is much too soon. The Fighter does not get something like this until 7th level, and the Fighter is only allowed to use cantrips alongside his attack action, not slotted spells. Fighters don't get to use slotted spells alongside a weapon attack until 18th level. Then again, it is channel divinity which is a very limited resource. But the Paladin already has Smites, which are potent enough already. You'd be allowing the Paladin to stack a spell on top of a smite on the same turn with this feature, which I think is too much at this level. I really think the Paladin should have a different feature here.

Maybe you can let the Paladin learn a cantrip or two here? Problem is that each Paladin is supposed to get two channel divinity options at 3rd level. Hmm... I dunno. Can't think of anything right now.


Lvl 3 Knowledge Pool
After a short or long rest you may use your Channel Divinity to bring any one Wizard spell to your mind upon meditating on the Weave. The spell is added to and does not count against your list of spells prepared and spell list. You forget the spell after a short or long rest as it leaves your mind at that time. The spellís level canít be higher than a spell level that a paladin of your level can cast. Ask your DM about whether or not you may pick spells with a range of Self.

This is iffy for the fact that Channel Divinity refreshes on a short and long rest. So do you spend the Channel divinity you just refreshed? That would suck. All the other Paladin channel divinities allow you to decide at the time you use Channel Divinity which one to use. But Knowledge Pool would force you to either prepare Knowledge Pool at the end of a short or long rest or lose Knowledge pool in the hopes that Spell Combat will become useful later.


Lvl 7 Aura of Spell Bending
All allies within the paladinís 10 ft aura that are targeted by a spell may redirect the spell after making a successful save against it. The spellís new target must be adjacent to the ally but cannot be the character that originally casted the spell. That new target must make a save against the spell as if the spell originally targeted him.

Iiiinteresting... Considering that the Paladin's 6th level Aura of Protection grants bonuses to everyone's saves in the same radius, I think Aura of Spell Bending completely overshadows every other Paladin Oath's 6th level features. Aura of Spell Bending plus Aura of Protection dramatically increase the chance of redirecting spells to enemies, which is frankly much better than the Oath of Ancient's Aura of Warding which grants resistance to spell damage. With Aura of Warding, it's a case of, "Hey, here's a bonus to your saving throw! Oh, you still failed your roll? At least you will resist the damage."

Aura of Warding combined with Aura of Protection is an either, or combination. But Aura of Spell Bending with Aura of Protection is a Bam and Buhbam! combination. My conclusion: Too strong.


Lvl 15 Arcane Recovery
Like a wizard, you have learned to regain some of your magical energy by meditating on the Weave. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than half your paladin level (rounded up), and none of the slots can be 6th level or higher.

You don't have to add the "none of the slots can be 6th level..." bit right there because it is completely impossible for a lvl 15 Paladin to have 6th level or higher slots. Maybe Arcane Recovery should be one of the Channel Divinities instead, except the spell slots can only have a combined level that is equal to or less than a fourth of your Paladin level, minimum one 1st level. So at level 3, that means you can reclaim one 1st level slot per short rest. At 8th, two 1st levels, or one 2nd. At 12th, three 1st levels, two 1st and one 2nd, or one 3rd. At 16th, one 4th, etc. At 20th, one 5th, etc.


Lvl 20 Ultimate Magus
You may use Spell Combat without using your Channel Divinity. You also choose two spells of each spell level up to 5th level from any spellcasting classesí lists. Add those spells to your paladin spell list.

This easily exceeds the Eldritch Knight's 18th level feature. The Eldritch Knight can only ever make 1 weapon attack when he casts a spell, but this Paladin will get his Extra attack *and* his Improved Divine Smite on those attacks. And don't forget the Paladin can add Smites to his weapon attacks as well. And then on top of that the Paladin will add 10 additional spells to his spell list? And not from the Wizard class but ANY class?

Much too strong. Perhaps give the Wizard's Spell Mastery, and *only* the Wizard's Spell Mastery, as the 20th level feature. A 1st and 2nd level spell a Paladin can spam will be pretty strong. That means being able to spam the Smite spells.

pibby
2015-01-13, 09:56 AM
I'll comment on the spell list at a different time.

This was what I was hoping to get critique on. The intent of adding these Oath Spells was to make the paladin feel more like an arcane caster. I'm not sure if I did this too well.


This is much too soon. The Fighter does not get something like this until 7th level, and the Fighter is only allowed to use cantrips alongside his attack action, not slotted spells. Fighters don't get to use slotted spells alongside a weapon attack until 18th level. Then again, it is channel divinity which is a very limited resource. But the Paladin already has Smites, which are potent enough already. You'd be allowing the Paladin to stack a spell on top of a smite on the same turn with this feature, which I think is too much at this level. I really think the Paladin should have a different feature here.

I forgot about the Extra Attack when I made this ability, whoops. I'll change it so that the Paladin can use Channel Divinity to make an attack as a bonus action after casting a spell instead.
However, I did take into account Smite plus an action spell, and as bonkers as that may have seemed I thought it was fine considering the Paladin's spell list. Observing that a Paladin can normally cast a smite spell and use Smite on one or both of his attacks, I didn't think that was any less powerful than what he could do with the OotW's Channel Divinity. Fireball or Hold Monster plus an attack may be ridiculous, but Banishment plus attack seemed okay to me since they get to do that in the same turn eventually without using a Channel Divinity. I made sure not to add certain spells to the Oath Spells for this reason.


This is iffy for the fact that Channel Divinity refreshes on a short and long rest. So do you spend the Channel divinity you just refreshed? That would suck. All the other Paladin channel divinities allow you to decide at the time you use Channel Divinity which one to use. But Knowledge Pool would force you to either prepare Knowledge Pool at the end of a short or long rest or lose Knowledge pool in the hopes that Spell Combat will become useful later.
Originally I was going to let them use this ability whenever as a bonus action but then I realized that would be too convenient, and not even less so as an action. I could be wrong. I'd like to know what you think if that was the case.


Iiiinteresting... Considering that the Paladin's 6th level Aura of Protection grants bonuses to everyone's saves in the same radius, I think Aura of Spell Bending completely overshadows every other Paladin Oath's 6th7th(?) level features. Aura of Spell Bending plus Aura of Protection dramatically increase the chance of redirecting spells to enemies, which is frankly much better than the Oath of Ancient's Aura of Warding which grants resistance to spell damage. With Aura of Warding, it's a case of, "Hey, here's a bonus to your saving throw! Oh, you still failed your roll? At least you will resist the damage."

I wanted to originally give Aura of Warding to this subclass, but then I decided against it and tried to figure out another thematic aura. TBH, I figured Spell Bending was a bit situational and would generally get retargeted towards a goonie who was doomed anyways. In the dream scenario where the BBEG has his Hold Person/Monster or his Polymorph redirected towards towards a goonie or his cohort, he could then just drop concentration that same turn. Spell Bending is more of a gimmick than anything from what I see. I'm open to suggestions of course.


You don't have to add the "none of the slots can be 6th level..." bit right there because it is completely impossible for a lvl 15 Paladin to have 6th level or higher slots. Maybe Arcane Recovery should be one of the Channel Divinities instead, except the spell slots can only have a combined level that is equal to or less than a fourth of your Paladin level, minimum one 1st level. So at level 3, that means you can reclaim one 1st level slot per short rest. At 8th, two 1st levels, or one 2nd. At 12th, three 1st levels, two 1st and one 2nd, or one 3rd. At 16th, one 4th, etc. At 20th, one 5th, etc.

Actually, it is possible for the Paladin to get 6th level slots if he multiclasses. Four levels in a full casting class makes his "caster level" 11 (15/2+4) qualifying him for 6th level slots.


This easily exceeds the Eldritch Knight's 18th level feature. The Eldritch Knight can only ever make 1 weapon attack when he casts a spell, but this Paladin will get his Extra attack *and* his Improved Divine Smite on those attacks. And don't forget the Paladin can add Smites to his weapon attacks as well. And then on top of that the Paladin will add 10 additional spells to his spell list? And not from the Wizard class but ANY class?

Much too strong. Perhaps give the Wizard's Spell Mastery, and *only* the Wizard's Spell Mastery, as the 20th level feature. A 1st and 2nd level spell a Paladin can spam will be pretty strong. That means being able to spam the Smite spells.
The capstone ability is basically homage to the Magus's Greater Spell Access that he gets at level 19. Considering all spells come from the Weave, even divine ones, I thought it made sense to allow spells from any class. But I guess that might be a bit too much.
I didn't think of Spell Mastery, that actually might be a better idea.

Leuku
2015-01-13, 05:51 PM
This was what I was hoping to get critique on. The intent of adding these Oath Spells was to make the paladin feel more like an arcane caster. I'm not sure if I did this too well.

I've looked over them. Looks like excellent choices to me. And with giving Spell Mastery at 20th, that makes many of these spells really potent. Spammable Misty Step and Hex? Awesome, and not OP, due to the fact that an 18th level Wizard can manage the same.

I am always generally wary of giving classes to Haste. It is the martial oriented combat spell. Might I suggest replacing it with Hypnotic Pattern?


I forgot about the Extra Attack when I made this ability, whoops. I'll change it so that the Paladin can use Channel Divinity to make an attack as a bonus action after casting a spell instead.
However, I did take into account Smite plus an action spell, and as bonkers as that may have seemed I thought it was fine considering the Paladin's spell list. Observing that a Paladin can normally cast a smite spell and use Smite on one or both of his attacks, I didn't think that was any less powerful than what he could do with the OotW's Channel Divinity. Fireball or Hold Monster plus an attack may be ridiculous, but Banishment plus attack seemed okay to me since they get to do that in the same turn eventually without using a Channel Divinity. I made sure not to add certain spells to the Oath Spells for this reason.

You make an excellent point that the Paladin's Spell list is not really damage oriented, except for Smites which are bonus actions anyways.


Originally I was going to let them use this ability whenever as a bonus action but then I realized that would be too convenient, and not even less so as an action. I could be wrong. I'd like to know what you think if that was the case.

If that were the case, then I think it would slow the game down too much, as the player will be looking through the spell list to find the ones he wants mid adventure.

I think Arcane Recovery should be the channel divinity, except this Paladin will use Arcane recovery inbetween short rests. Considering the Wizard gets Arcane Recovery at 2nd, having a Paladin of the Weave gain it at 3rd, and at less potency but more frequency, is good. It would ensure that at 3rd level the Paladin will always have the opportunity to regain a 1st level slot once per short rest.


I wanted to originally give Aura of Warding to this subclass, but then I decided against it and tried to figure out another thematic aura. TBH, I figured Spell Bending was a bit situational and would generally get retargeted towards a goonie who was doomed anyways. In the dream scenario where the BBEG has his Hold Person/Monster or his Polymorph redirected towards towards a goonie or his cohort, he could then just drop concentration that same turn. Spell Bending is more of a gimmick than anything from what I see. I'm open to suggestions of course.

Consider the following exploit: You are a 17th level OotW Paladin with your allies bunched up together with you as a swarm of enemies surround you. You cast Cloudkill right over your own head, targeting yourself, your allies, and the enemies before you. Aura of Protection will almost guarantee that you and your allies will save properly. Those among you that do save, Aura of Spell Bending immediately re-targets enemies, ensuring that you will do at least double the intended damage to those enemies. Do this for any spell, not even spells the Paladin casts. It is basically doubling a spell.

Another example: A wizard could cast Lightning Bolt straight through the Paladin against an enemy creature in front of the Paladin. Aura of Protection dramatically increases the chance the Paladin will succeed the save. On a success, Lightning bolt will be cast again at the enemy in front of the Paladin. I would argue that this changes this from gimmick to exploit; it becomes a double-damage feature at the cost of the Paladin's health, except the Paladin is likely to save anyways, dramatically reducing the damage he'd take.


Actually, it is possible for the Paladin to get 6th level slots if he multiclasses. Four levels in a full casting class makes his "caster level" 11 (15/2+4) qualifying him for 6th level slots./

Huh. Well whadaya know. That's one interesting exploit.


The capstone ability is basically homage to the Magus's Greater Spell Access that he gets at level 19. Considering all spells come from the Weave, even divine ones, I thought it made sense to allow spells from any class. But I guess that might be a bit too much.
I didn't think of Spell Mastery, that actually might be a better idea.

It is unfortunate that I do not have any actual knowledge of the Magus, I could probably have been more helpful.

pibby
2015-01-13, 07:47 PM
Sorry I've been re-editing my initial post a lot, but I left the old edits in spoilers since I expect people to like some of those class features more than the current ones. I'm not even particularly set with what I've got now, but such is the nature of a homebrew that seeks feedback.


Consider the following exploit: You are a 17th level OotW Paladin with your allies bunched up together with you as a swarm of enemies surround you. You cast Cloudkill right over your own head, targeting yourself, your allies, and the enemies before you. Aura of Protection will almost guarantee that you and your allies will save properly. Those among you that do save, Aura of Spell Bending immediately re-targets enemies, ensuring that you will do at least double the intended damage to those enemies. Do this for any spell, not even spells the Paladin casts. It is basically doubling a spell.

Another example: A wizard could cast Lightning Bolt straight through the Paladin against an enemy creature in front of the Paladin. Aura of Protection dramatically increases the chance the Paladin will succeed the save. On a success, Lightning bolt will be cast again at the enemy in front of the Paladin. I would argue that this changes this from gimmick to exploit; it becomes a double-damage feature at the cost of the Paladin's health, except the Paladin is likely to save anyways, dramatically reducing the damage he'd take.

Neither of those spells target creatures, they affect them which is not the same thing in terms of game mechanics. I figured out a new aura anyways that's just as situational but fair considering the Channel Divinity options are imo strong.


It is unfortunate that I do not have any actual knowledge of the Magus, I could probably have been more helpful.

The Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) from Pathfinder is certainly one of the most hated loved classes that the game offers. It is arguably considered to be THE GISH CLASS which perfectly blends spellcasting with fighting, making the sum of the two aspects greater than its parts. Not only did they have a great burst ability, but they also had enough versatility to be the perfect battle mage.
This is what I seek to do for this subclass.
On a related note, I have collected helpful data from feedback on this subclass that I will be incorporating into a Magus 5e conversion that I've got in the works.