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Fireball.Man.Guy.
2007-04-01, 10:17 PM
I'm playing an arena fight with a druid, and I got thinking. What justifies druid getting animal companion (which absolutely kills at lv.1), non-metalic armor, and

d8 HD!!!
Honestly. What explains druids being tougher than rogues, bards, ninjas (me), and sorc/wiz? What's your take?

ken-do-nim
2007-04-01, 10:19 PM
Agreed. Clerics & druids should both be d6.

Woot Spitum
2007-04-01, 10:20 PM
I suppose it's because WotC envisioned them as the more offensively based version of the cleric. Doesn't make it right.

jjpickar
2007-04-01, 10:35 PM
With clerics, I agree but at fifth level druid wildshape pretty much negates the d6 anyway.

Kel_Arath
2007-04-01, 11:05 PM
firstly, no metal armor is bad, not good. secondly, animal companions are useful, not that over powered if DM makes them used right (they dont get mind controled, so if you want them to attack, you cant purposely make them go around to flank, etc). and their tougher than all the others cause druids live their lives roughing the woods and such, while rogues /bards /sorc /wiz spend their lives stealing /musicing /practicing magic /learning magic

Aximili
2007-04-01, 11:08 PM
With clerics, I agree but at fifth level druid wildshape pretty much negates the d6 anyway.
Wildshaoe doesn't change HP, not even from higher CONS.

Jothki
2007-04-01, 11:10 PM
They have all those perks because they're healers, I suspect.

Kultrum
2007-04-01, 11:16 PM
They have all those perks because they're healers, I suspect.

Ya thats prolly it. their supposed to be support so they get perks.

Kantolin
2007-04-01, 11:17 PM
I'm kinda surprised you mentioned a bunch of things that a lot of people don't have trouble with, then didn't mention Wild Shape.

Mrr. Although animal companion was mentioned at least, but the big offender in my eyes is Wild Shape.

Fireball.Man.Guy.
2007-04-01, 11:25 PM
At least they get armor. Wizards, sorcerors, and ninjas don't.

Kultrum
2007-04-01, 11:25 PM
I'm kinda surprised you mentioned a bunch of things that a lot of people don't have trouble with, then didn't mention Wild Shape.

Mrr. Although animal companion was mentioned at least, but the big offender in my eyes is Wild Shape.

on that note death to natural spell!!

Kantolin
2007-04-01, 11:37 PM
Well, let me analyze this a bit further.

I could actually live with a, say, wizard with an animal companion and the druid's spell list (Complete with spontaneous summons). That, in fact, would be kinda sub-par compared to said wizard.

I could also live with the presence of non-metal armour. Making something out of (say) dragonscale is problematic, and they're limited to medium armour regardless. This, more than anything else, makes up for their notably more poor spell list than a wizard's.

A d8 hit die is, admittedly, a lot. But really - it's wild shape. Well, wild shape and their spell list. If they had to pick between one of those two options they'd be relatively okay, in my book.

Aximili
2007-04-01, 11:53 PM
Is there something absurd about the Druid's spell list.
I realise that combining his spell list with the companion, Wildshap, d8 and other abilities is a lot.

But is spell list in it self worth fearing?

Kantolin
2007-04-02, 12:00 AM
I realise that combining his spell list with the companion, Wildshap, d8 and other abilities is a lot.

But is spell list in it self worth fearing?
That's my general logic.

A wizard with the druid's spell list would be quite a bit weaker. It's that the druid gets a pretty good spell list, and wild shape that clinches it (With an admittedly mild nod to the Animal Companion)
.

Gralamin
2007-04-02, 12:01 AM
Use PHB2 Shapeshifiting variant. Removes Animal Companion and Wildshape (replaces with Shapeshifiting, a more balanced variant). Also ruins natural spell cheese

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-02, 12:09 AM
Ranger and Druid need to switch Animal Companion power levels.

Druid's spell-list has such gems as Contagion, Entangle(win at levels 1-5ish), and Call Lightning(Storm).

Snaeferu
2007-04-02, 12:20 AM
so one (1) hitpoint more per level on average ruined your day huh ? :biggrin:

Rahdjan
2007-04-02, 12:22 AM
If you use the logic that druids deserve the D8 because they live in the woods, why doesn't the Ranger get a D12(which I'm in favor of)?

Kultrum
2007-04-02, 12:27 AM
If you use the logic that druids deserve the D8 because they live in the woods, why doesn't the Ranger get a D12(which I'm in favor of)?

because they don't mind using a tent now and again

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 12:36 AM
Is there something absurd about the Druid's spell list.
I realise that combining his spell list with the companion, Wildshap, d8 and other abilities is a lot.

But is spell list in it self worth fearing?

The Core druid's spell list is mostly mediocre.

However, he gets some highly useful spells.

Level 1: Entangle, one of the best low-level control spells; Produce Flame isn't so bad.
Level 2: Barkskin, Bull's Strength.
Level 3: Call Lightning, Greater Magic Fang, Poison, Wind Wall, Plant Growth (situational).
Level 4: Air Walk, Flame Strike, Freedom of Movement, Dispel Magic
Level 5: Animal Growth, Wall of Thorns, Death Ward, Baleful Polymorph, the absolutely devastating Control Winds.
Level 6: Antilife Shell, Spellstaff (basically, a free highest-level slot), Greater Dispel Magic, Fire Seeds, Transport Via Plants.
Level 7: Control Weather, Heal, True Seeing, Wind Walk.
Level 8: Finger of Death, Sunburst's okay, Repel Metal Or Stone.
Level 9: Shapechange, Foresight.

Plus the SNA spells, with Augment Summoning especially.
So Druids aren't TEH AWESOMETASTIC, but they're definitely not bad.

The Spell Compendium adds enough great spells to make them a force to be reckoned with (and a druid casting Bite of the Weretiger or Bite of the Werebear on himself is ridiculously potent in wildshape. That is, more so than he was before. And he gets the Tiger one at 11, the Bear one at 13).
Level 1: Cloudburst (make your Call Lightning stronger), Hawkeye (combine with WIS primary stat and Spot as a class skill), Lesser Vigor, Enrage Animal (for your companion).
Level 2: Blinding Spittle (way too good--WHY do they keep reprinting this?), Healing Lorecall (makes the Heal skill useful!), Kelpstrand, Listening Lorecall, Nature's Favor (swift-action, woo), Master Air, Wings of Air/Cloud Wings for flying shapes.
Level 3: Blindsight, Bottle of Smoke, Entangling Staff (+ape Wild Shape), Icelance, Lion's Charge, Mass Resist Energy, Vigor, Mass Lesser Vigor, Spiderskin.
Level 4: Greater Blindsight, Bite of the Wereboar, Contingent Energy Resistance, Enhance Wild Shape, Moon Bolt, Greater Resistance, Sheltered Vitality, Boreal Wind (Frostburn) and its Sandstorm counterpart.
Level 5: Anticold Sphere (situationally very useful, most of the time, not so much), Bite of the Weretiger (gah), Mantle of the Icy Soul (situational, or comboed with Energy Immunity: fire), Owl's Insight, Phantom Stag (like Phantom Steed but even BETTER), Sirine's Grace (depending on your CHA), Greater Vigor.
Level 6: Bite of the Werebear (+16 Enhancement bonus to strength, and more. GAH.), Energy Immunity, Enveloping Cocoon (turn a save-or-lose on its list into a Ref save! Yes, now you can hit the fighter's or dragon's Ref save with Baleful Polymorph!), Superior Resistance, Tortoise Shell (big Natural Armor bonus; forget Barkskin).
Level 7: Aura of Vitality, Master Earth (a druid Greater Teleport, really), Word of Balance.
Level 8: Brilliant Aura, Stormrage.
Level 9: Summon Elemental Monolith, Mass Death Ward, Nature's Avatar (a swift action. Give your animal companion +10 AB/damage and haste? yes, please), Tsunami, Greater Whirlwind (very devastating, no save/SR).

The druid becomes a powerful spellcaster on top of what he was before. And he gets huge buffs that get around his difficulty of item use and more (like Bite of the X and Superior Resistance).

Fhaolan
2007-04-02, 01:57 AM
Ranger and Druid need to switch Animal Companion power levels.

That's a fascinating idea. I've never encountered that one before. Is it new, or am I just out-of-date with regards to Druid balancing?

Slokkva
2007-04-02, 02:22 AM
I played a druid once in a campaign...after 1 session I was told I was no longer allowed to play a druid when my friend was the DM....inadvertantly I completely ruined every encounter he had planned for us...everything that was supposed to be a challenge ended up being very trivial.

Example: We entered a very close quartered tunnel....we found a locked door,
I had the rogue listen check for traps typical stuff, then unlock the door and peek inside. He saw 2 hobgoblins. 2 hobgoblins that the DM had planned on using to kick our rears for cracking jokes about the session being to easy.

So rather than fight them toe to toe, I had the rogue open the door...I casted call swarm, then had the rogue close the door and lock the door again...we just sat and waited while the hobgoblins died a horrible death haha.
The room they were in was small so they didn't really stand much a chance..was quite hilarious.

I've always seen druids as being overpowered due to the fact they can cheese out everything, especially so early.
I can't really give an educated answer as to why, but I can only speculate that when they were created, the writers didn't expect people to use them in such ways as I did.

Rangers should at least be on par with them IMO, but I don't think they are, but my opinions are only based on what I've played or seen played, so there is always room for things I haven't seen played or played myself.

Kantolin
2007-04-02, 02:50 AM
To be fair, a wizard or sorceror (or bard, even) could've solved your hobgoblin encounter identically. Early on, my money's on the animal companion being problematic. Beyond that, I don't quite see how druids can 'cheese out everything'. Admittedly, there are a few spells which are potent at low levels, but they're usually nothing compared to what a wizard can do.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-02, 03:25 AM
Honestly. What explains druids being tougher than rogues, bards, ninjas (me), and sorc/wiz? What's your take?

Perhaps the fact that you're playing a ninja? Ninjas tend to... you know... suck.

Starsinger
2007-04-02, 03:43 AM
Honestly. What explains druids being tougher than rogues, bards, ninjas (me), and sorc/wiz? What's your take?

WotC wanted people to play Clerics and Druids so they could balance the world around the idea that 1/4th of an adventuring team is a primary divine caster.

Zincorium
2007-04-02, 03:48 AM
Perhaps the fact that you're playing a ninja? Ninjas tend to... you know... suck.

Only in large numbers. A single Ninja should be able to take out an entire dungeon by themselves. The failure to model the Law of Inverse Ninja Strength was a failure on WotC's part. And probably why the class isn't nearly as popular as many others are.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-02, 04:43 AM
That's a fascinating idea. I've never encountered that one before. Is it new, or am I just out-of-date with regards to Druid balancing?

Someone mentioned it a long time ago, and it kind of stuck with me.

Jack Mann
2007-04-02, 05:03 AM
I generally use the shapechange variant, so druids don't get animal companions in my campaigns. But giving the ranger the druid's animal companion progression... That has potential. I'm going to give it a try sometime, I think.

Cthulhu
2007-04-02, 06:54 AM
Seriously, you're getting the name wrong... it's DRUIDS of the coast.

And that explains everything.

On a more serious note, no-one disagrees that druids are the best class in the game. You have an animal companion, which is awesome, wild shape, which is awesome, full divine casting, which is awesome, and no real penalties, which is also awesome. I'd actually go so far to say as that a druids class features are actually better than some entire classes - as per the comic.

For those that comment about con and wild shape... what happens when I wild shape, then put on an amulet of health +2

Note that it's actually a look up chart in the PHB.

So there are two options

1) My con shifts to wildshape form + 2 con and then my hit points change as required by the lookup chart, or;

2) if my hitpoint score DOESN'T change due to putting on the items, shouldn't I stack con THEN wildshape.. because then I get all the extra hitpoints and am now immune to con drain/change, so I am perma-buffed.

The new ruling (that your hit points doesn't move because of wild shape) is either easily circumvented (option A), or completely insane (option B). Any reasonable option (c) is completely unsupported by the rules, though it sure does make a nice house rule.

NullAshton
2007-04-02, 07:03 AM
I played a druid once in a campaign...after 1 session I was told I was no longer allowed to play a druid when my friend was the DM....inadvertantly I completely ruined every encounter he had planned for us...everything that was supposed to be a challenge ended up being very trivial.

Example: We entered a very close quartered tunnel....we found a locked door,
I had the rogue listen check for traps typical stuff, then unlock the door and peek inside. He saw 2 hobgoblins. 2 hobgoblins that the DM had planned on using to kick our rears for cracking jokes about the session being to easy.

So rather than fight them toe to toe, I had the rogue open the door...I casted call swarm, then had the rogue close the door and lock the door again...we just sat and waited while the hobgoblins died a horrible death haha.
The room they were in was small so they didn't really stand much a chance..was quite hilarious.

I've always seen druids as being overpowered due to the fact they can cheese out everything, especially so early.
I can't really give an educated answer as to why, but I can only speculate that when they were created, the writers didn't expect people to use them in such ways as I did.

Rangers should at least be on par with them IMO, but I don't think they are, but my opinions are only based on what I've played or seen played, so there is always room for things I haven't seen played or played myself.

Nice story, but in it, the rogue helped out too didn't he? It's not just the druid, it's also the rogue that can open the door without anyone knowing.

Zincorium
2007-04-02, 07:13 AM
Seriously, you're getting the name wrong... it's DRUIDS of the coast.

And that explains everything.

On a more serious note, no-one disagrees that druids are the best class in the game. You have an animal companion, which is awesome, wild shape, which is awesome, full divine casting, which is awesome, and no real penalties, which is also awesome. I'd actually go so far to say as that a druids class features are actually better than some entire classes - as per the comic.

For those that comment about con and wild shape... what happens when I wild shape, then put on an amulet of health +2

Note that it's actually a look up chart in the PHB.

So there are two options

1) My con shifts to wildshape form + 2 con and then my hit points change as required by the lookup chart, or;

2) if my hitpoint score DOESN'T change due to putting on the items, shouldn't I stack con THEN wildshape.. because then I get all the extra hitpoints and am now immune to con drain/change, so I am perma-buffed.

The new ruling (that your hit points doesn't move because of wild shape) is either easily circumvented (option A), or completely insane (option B). Any reasonable option (c) is completely unsupported by the rules, though it sure does make a nice house rule.

Right. Or you could choose a reasonable option D where your hit points are altered by the amulet, +1 per level, and stay that way regardless of wildshape because wildshape specifically does not alter your hit points, but changes to constitution from other sources still do, as per normal.

Text trumps table. And the FAQ trumps wild speculation, see page 11 for full vindication of my position from WotC.

Even if you're one of those stubborn people that refuses to accept the official clarification on a controversial issue, it's still a matter of looking beyond the table, which is for ease of reference, to the actual mechanics involved.

Also, if A doesn't make sense, and B doesn't make sense, while C does, look harder for evidence of it.

McDeath
2007-04-02, 07:30 AM
Only problem I have with druids is the Natural Spell feat. Remove that from RAW, and I won't mind a bit when my friends play druids. But until then, I twitch whenever they go 'I shift into bear form and cast Great Magic Fang".

Caledonian
2007-04-02, 07:37 AM
Only in large numbers. A single Ninja should be able to take out an entire dungeon by themselves. The failure to model the Law of Inverse Ninja Strength was a failure on WotC's part. And probably why the class isn't nearly as popular as many others are.

On a serious note, the Law of Inverse Ninja Strength exists because solitary ninjas can rely on stealth, striking from the shadows, surprise, etc. They're not actually good at direct conflict, which is why they do so poorly in groups, where stealth and surprise and so on can't be utilized effectively.

Starbuck_II
2007-04-02, 07:56 AM
The Core druid's spell list is mostly mediocre.

However, he gets some highly useful spells.

Level 1: Entangle, one of the best low-level control spells; Produce Flame isn't so bad.
Level 2: Barkskin, Bull's Strength.
Level 3: Call Lightning, Greater Magic Fang, Poison, Wind Wall, Plant Growth (situational).
Level 4: Air Walk, Flame Strike, Freedom of Movement, Dispel Magic
Level 5: Animal Growth, Wall of Thorns, Death Ward, Baleful Polymorph, the absolutely devastating Control Winds.
Level 6: Antilife Shell, Spellstaff (basically, a free highest-level slot), Greater Dispel Magic, Fire Seeds, Transport Via Plants.
Level 7: Control Weather, Heal, True Seeing, Wind Walk.
Level 8: Finger of Death, Sunburst's okay, Repel Metal Or Stone.
Level 9: Shapechange, Foresight.

Plus the SNA spells, with Augment Summoning especially.
So Druids aren't TEH AWESOMETASTIC, but they're definitely not bad.

The Spell Compendium adds enough great spells to make them a force to be reckoned with (and a druid casting Bite of the Weretiger or Bite of the Werebear on himself is ridiculously potent in wildshape. That is, more so than he was before. And he gets the Tiger one at 11, the Bear one at 13).
Level 1: Cloudburst (make your Call Lightning stronger), Hawkeye (combine with WIS primary stat and Spot as a class skill), Lesser Vigor, Enrage Animal (for your companion).
Level 2: Blinding Spittle (way too good--WHY do they keep reprinting this?), Healing Lorecall (makes the Heal skill useful!), Kelpstrand, Listening Lorecall, Nature's Favor (swift-action, woo), Master Air, Wings of Air/Cloud Wings for flying shapes.
Level 3: Blindsight, Bottle of Smoke, Entangling Staff (+ape Wild Shape), Icelance, Lion's Charge, Mass Resist Energy, Vigor, Mass Lesser Vigor, Spiderskin.
Level 4: Greater Blindsight, Bite of the Wereboar, Contingent Energy Resistance, Enhance Wild Shape, Moon Bolt, Greater Resistance, Sheltered Vitality, Boreal Wind (Frostburn) and its Sandstorm counterpart.
Level 5: Anticold Sphere (situationally very useful, most of the time, not so much), Bite of the Weretiger (gah), Mantle of the Icy Soul (situational, or comboed with Energy Immunity: fire), Owl's Insight, Phantom Stag (like Phantom Steed but even BETTER), Sirine's Grace (depending on your CHA), Greater Vigor.
Level 6: Bite of the Werebear (+16 Enhancement bonus to strength, and more. GAH.), Energy Immunity, Enveloping Cocoon (turn a save-or-lose on its list into a Ref save! Yes, now you can hit the fighter's or dragon's Ref save with Baleful Polymorph!), Superior Resistance, Tortoise Shell (big Natural Armor bonus; forget Barkskin).
Level 7: Aura of Vitality, Master Earth (a druid Greater Teleport, really), Word of Balance.
Level 8: Brilliant Aura, Stormrage.
Level 9: Summon Elemental Monolith, Mass Death Ward, Nature's Avatar (a swift action. Give your animal companion +10 AB/damage and haste? yes, please), Tsunami, Greater Whirlwind (very devastating, no save/SR).

The druid becomes a powerful spellcaster on top of what he was before. And he gets huge buffs that get around his difficulty of item use and more (like Bite of the X and Superior Resistance).

You forgot Shillelagh: +1 Quarterstaff dealing 2d6 each side: w00t. It is like awesomeness essence atr low levels.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 08:07 AM
Shillelagh means that you, a fragile and/or low-AB pre-Wild-Shape druid, are wading into melee. Bad move.

Cthulhu
2007-04-02, 08:08 AM
Text trumps table. And the FAQ trumps wild speculation, see page 11 for full vindication of my position from WotC.

Okay, as page 11 doesn't reference wild shape at all, I'll assume you meant page 13 for the sake of argument. The quote is as below:



As per the errata for wild shape, despite an altered
Constitution score the character’s hit points do not change
accordingly. Does this mean that regardless of Constitution
changes while wild shaped a character’s hit points are
unaffected?

Answer No. Any changes to a wild shaped character’s Constitution
score that occur after the change (such as a timely bear’s
endurance spell or a Constitution-damaging poison) would
have the full normal effect (including altering hit points).
At no point is it stated that the table is for easy reference, it is the only statement of the rules! So while I agree with the statement text trumps table, you are referencing text that doesn't exist.

So the FAQ states interpretation A) If a druid with con 10 wild shapes into a form with con 20, and then add an amulet of health +2, your constitution becomes 22 - as is clearly outlined in the rules and the FAQ. This has the full normal effect which is to give you a +6 con modifier - which then alters your hit points. No other reading has any supporting text.

Now I agree that your house rule is an entirely fair and reasonable way to play. And honestly, if you do that, that just means that the druid has to have a con score as opposed to dumping it, and hardly nerfs it at all (especially if you play from level 1) But it is also not what the rules, or the FAQ states :)

Rigeld2
2007-04-02, 08:11 AM
Including altering hit points. So... you gain hit points when you wildshape. How hard is that to understand?

Cthulhu
2007-04-02, 08:13 AM
Including altering hit points. So... you gain hit points when you wildshape. How hard is that to understand?

Except that was specifically disallowed. Like all the rules to do with changing form in D&D 3.5 edition, it is both confusing AND overpowered.

Edit: For the record, in my games, I play with shape changing being a "you get an entirely new character sheet with the whatever you a shape changing into on it" as the house rule.

Rigeld2
2007-04-02, 08:14 AM
Read the last four words in the FAQ quote you supplied.
Edit - you edited.

Thats all that it does. Increased CON increases hit points. Thats all that wildshape gives you.

Zincorium
2007-04-02, 08:22 AM
Okay, as page 11 doesn't reference wild shape at all, I'll assume you meant page 13 for the sake of argument. The quote is as below:

At no point is it stated that the table is for easy reference, it is the only statement of the rules! So while I agree with the statement text trumps table, you are referencing text that doesn't exist.

So the FAQ states interpretation A) If a druid with con 10 wild shapes into a form with con 20, and then add an amulet of health +2, your constitution becomes 22 - as is clearly outlined in the rules and the FAQ. This has the full normal effect which is to give you a +6 con modifier - which then alters your hit points. No other reading has any supporting text.

Now I agree that your house rule is an entirely fair and reasonable way to play. And honestly, if you do that, that just means that the druid has to have a con score as opposed to dumping it, and hardly nerfs it at all (especially if you play from level 1) But it is also not what the rules, or the FAQ states :)

On the January 26, 2007 version, it is indeed on page 11. However the wording is the same.

And you're again messing with words. It has the full effect that it would normally have, i.e. +1 hit point per level, +1 to fortitude saves, etc.

It does not remove the caveat from wild shape stating it does not increase hit points from the increased constitution. You have an increase in constitution, which does not increase hit points as a special rule. You then have a normal constitution increase, which, since the first one does not apply to hit points, means that you look at the portion of the table which equals the original constitution score, plus the constitution bonus which does affect hit points, and then go from there.

Everything is having it's full normal effect, just like it says. The enhancement bonus is functioning normally. The wildshape bonus is functioning to it's normal, full effect, which does not include hit points, no matter what, because it simply doesn't do that as a normal, full effect.

Again, if A doesn't make sense, and B doesn't make sense, LOOK HARDER for evidence supporting C. It is there. It requires a discerning outlook, so that you don't just say, 'well, a constitution bonus is a constitution bonus', you say 'well, this here constitution bonus is different, maybe I don't apply it like I normally would.'

Just, finally, an interpretation of the rules which follows them to the letter is not a house rule. I see that wild shape does not affect hit points, so when determining hit points based of constitution, I simply do not include it as instructed. I do include everything else, as instructed. I come up with the correct number. I am not house ruling anything.

Talya
2007-04-02, 08:28 AM
The whole armor thing is really irrelevant. At no cost at all. a wizard/sorceror can have a 1 hour/caster level, 3rd level spell that adds 6 armor class (the same as splintmail or banded mail) with no spell failure, armor check penalty, or other issues. Plus it prevents incorporeal touch attacks.

While it's true if you're willing to spend a feat, buy dragonmail plate, and get it enchanted, you can greatly surpass that, they wizard has similar options. +8 Bracers of armor are not all that expensive. (Note that bracers of armor are also a great choice for a lot of light armor classes, expecially if they are dexterity-addicts. (Mithral Breastplates are light armor, and can easily surpass bracers of armor if enchanted, but only allow a dex bonus of +5.)

Lastly, druid armor is useless when they wildshape. Which, frankly, will be most of the time in combat. Why waste the feat/money on dragonscale?

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-02, 08:34 AM
Only in large numbers. A single Ninja should be able to take out an entire dungeon by themselves. The failure to model the Law of Inverse Ninja Strength was a failure on WotC's part. And probably why the class isn't nearly as popular as many others are.

Thanks for the correction. I'll keep that in mind for a low-PC-count campaign that might be coming up.

Zincorium
2007-04-02, 08:39 AM
The whole armor thing is really irrelevant. At no cost at all. a wizard/sorceror can have a 1 hour/caster level, 3rd level spell that adds 6 armor class (the same as splintmail or banded mail) with no spell failure, armor check penalty, or other issues. Plus it prevents incorporeal touch attacks.

While it's true if you're willing to spend a feat, buy dragonmail plate, and get it enchanted, you can greatly surpass that, they wizard has similar options. +8 Bracers of armor are not all that expensive. (Note that bracers of armor are also a great choice for a lot of light armor classes, expecially if they are dexterity-addicts. (Mithral Breastplates are light armor, and can easily surpass bracers of armor if enchanted, but only allow a dex bonus of +5.)

Bracers of Armor are a better choice if your dexterity is above 22 and you can afford to spend a lot more, or just aren't allowed to wear armor arbitrarily. A +5 mithril chain shirt is only 1100 gold above a set of bracers +5, and provide 4 points more of armor. Which means to get equal AC, you'd need a dexterity score of 30. And neither has an armor check penalty, although the mithral shirt still has a spell failure of 10%, which if you use the twilight enchantment, means that it has an equal price to bracers of armor +6, which still requires a dexterity of 28, 6 points higher, to have an equal AC.

Once money no longer matters and you have an insanely high dex score, yes, bracers of armor are better. But it takes a bit, and a +1 Twilight Mithril chain shirt has a much better head start. Even if you don't have light armor proficiency, all lack of proficiency does is, gasp, give you a -0 penalty on attacks and skills.

Mithril shirts are the bomb. The only light or no armored characters that aren't better for owning one are druids and monks, and that's due to a loss of class features rather than any mechanical deficiency. They're less expensive than full plate.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-02, 08:42 AM
I generally use the shapechange variant, so druids don't get animal companions in my campaigns. But giving the ranger the druid's animal companion progression... That has potential. I'm going to give it a try sometime, I think.
I've actually tried that once, and I absolutely, positively, reccomend it.
Ranger's always been a neat class, but it's not that powerful, especially outside of its niche (a very useful niche, mind you) ...so a little tweaking on its spell list and a better animal companion makes for an incentive to actually play one.
Plus the animal companion was probably (to my mind) the primary ability that makes a Ranger more than a fighter who specializes in one of two sub-optimal feat trees.

Maxymiuk
2007-04-02, 01:43 PM
Lastly, druid armor is useless when they wildshape. Which, frankly, will be most of the time in combat. Why waste the feat/money on dragonscale?

Because there's that neat Wild enchantment and the 9000gp cost is certainly something you can afford by the time you can get dragonscale armor.

asqwasqw
2007-04-02, 01:57 PM
Problem is I think that Rangers and Paladins are designed to be the more melee oriented version of the Druid and Cleric. However, with Wild Shape and Bluffs, the Druid and Cleric are stronger than the Ranger and Paladin. I say either buff the ranger and paladin spellcasting or nerf Wild Shape (get rid of natural spell entirely) and make it so that Clerics can not buff themselves.

Starbuck_II
2007-04-02, 02:12 PM
Shillelagh means that you, a fragile and/or low-AB pre-Wild-Shape druid, are wading into melee. Bad move.
BAb isn't that behind in low levels.
Fragile (I assume good Con as you need it in Wild Shaped form).

You would usually be behind in strength (obviously), but at level 1 or 2 you'd do okay. Fighter can't get very much armor because of price.

Not till 3rd level does full plate jump out to affordable. But than you settle into caster mode till Wild shape at level 5.

Turcano
2007-04-02, 03:46 PM
So the FAQ states interpretation A) If a druid with con 10 wild shapes into a form with con 20, and then add an amulet of health +2, your constitution becomes 22 - as is clearly outlined in the rules and the FAQ. This has the full normal effect which is to give you a +6 con modifier - which then alters your hit points. No other reading has any supporting text.

Well, except for the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape), which states that wild shape works like alternate form, which states that you retain your hitpoints when you use it. You do undergo natural healing and get a better Con modifier when you wild shape, but that's it.

Rumpus
2007-04-02, 04:01 PM
Yes, down with Natural Spell! It's completely unbalancing, and doesn't really make all that much sense. Maybe as a Shifter special ability, but Druids with it are flat-out overpowered.

LotharBot
2007-04-02, 04:06 PM
I like the idea of natural spell as a metamagic feat with a +2-ish level adjustment. Druids could then cast from their shapechanged form, but only spells they'd prepared in higher spell slots specifically for that purpose.

axraelshelm
2007-04-02, 04:07 PM
You see natrual spell is just too good I mean you can have particaly the same effect by having silent/still spell in wildshape form and because of the +2 spell slots it means they are balanced some what.

axraelshelm
2007-04-02, 04:09 PM
I like the idea of natural spell as a metamagic feat with a +2-ish level adjustment. Druids could then cast from their shapechanged form, but only spells they'd prepared in higher spell slots specifically for that purpose.

quicker than me!!!

Variable Arcana
2007-04-02, 04:31 PM
I'd actually go so far to say as that a druids class features are actually better than some entire classes - as per the comic.Which comic?

McDeath
2007-04-02, 04:37 PM
We simplified both druidic and arcane magic in my group by removing Wild Shape and Polymorph. No compensation required - druids are still powerful, and I play sorcerers, I'm used to losing options. Think this fix could work for other people?

Draz74
2007-04-02, 04:44 PM
Which comic?

Order of the Stick, of course. Especially referencing Episode 346 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html).

Rigeld2
2007-04-02, 04:48 PM
BAb isn't that behind in low levels.
Fragile (I assume good Con as you need it in Wild Shaped form).
You dont need Con for Wild Shape... you get a new Con when you take a form.

Latronis
2007-04-02, 04:50 PM
I've always given rangers full animal companion progression, quite often without druids even getting one.

I've also heard some people have rangers at druid level -3 for animal companion.

Or you could have ranger gets it at ranger level and druids at -3 or 1\2, though 1\2 level is a rather useless animal companion :P

It's always seemed more of a ranger thing to me then a druid thing.

The Natural Spell +2 metamagic has some appeal to me i might try that.

Aximili
2007-04-02, 07:33 PM
You dont need Con for Wild Shape... you get a new Con when you take a form.
Wildshape itself never gives you HP, no matter how much higher your new CON score is.

Matthew
2007-04-03, 06:03 PM
Um, Druids have 1D8 Hit Points because Clerics do, a holdover from (A)D&D. Clerics have 1D8 Hit Points because they are Warrior Monks, rather than Priests or Monks. Basically, they're closer to Templars and such than Friars.

henebry
2007-04-03, 08:44 PM
I've never understood the d6 as the Rogue hit die. I think of rogues as light warriors, capable in combat. They get the same BAB progression as Clerics and Druids, but not the Cleric/Druid/Ranger hit die.

Matthew
2007-04-03, 08:53 PM
Well, it's because 1D6 was the default Hit Die. Therefore, 0-Level Characters, such as Commoners, had 1D6 Hit Points (which was better than the 1D4 they get now). The Thief (as this Class was previously known) was basically using the default Hit Die (which was also the case for Fighters and Clerics back in the very beginnings of the game). It's just a holdover really, but in terms of game mechanics you trade X Hit Points for Y Skill Points.

Kosmopolite
2007-04-03, 09:04 PM
And to force rogues to be sneaky in combat. If they had more hit points they'd be more tempted to dive in. That's not what rogues are about.

draca
2007-04-04, 11:56 AM
If you feel that the class you are playing it underpowered, then think up house rules to bring it up to par. Don't point fingers and say that other classes need to be "nerfed." It's like the old days of MMO's. Every time the player of one class saw a perceived strength in another class that they didn't have an answer to, they would complain that that other class needed to be taken down a notch. Ask and answer yourself a few questions:

How about you give rogues a d8 in your game?
Rogues cannot wear metal armor either, how is this a bad thing?

Additionally, Druids and clerics have gotten d8 hitpoints since I started playing the game, back in AD&D 2nd ed, and before.

I'm not even familiar with this Ninja class, but it sounds like something new or highly specialized out of a suppliment, and IT was probibly made very limited for balance.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-04, 12:16 PM
Please see every post ever concerning "shapeshift variant pwns."

Really, by making the Shapeshift Variant from the PHBII mandatory, your druid is balanced. No worrying about type changes, supernatural abilities, special attacks, special qualities—you don't become the animal, just a form that functions like a certain grouping of animals.

Since it also takes away the animal companion, that's another problem solved.

Starbuck_II
2007-04-04, 12:52 PM
Please see every post ever concerning "shapeshift variant pwns."

Really, by making the Shapeshift Variant from the PHBII mandatory, your druid is balanced. No worrying about type changes, supernatural abilities, special attacks, special qualities—you don't become the animal, just a form that functions like a certain grouping of animals.

Since it also takes away the animal companion, that's another problem solved.
What if I want an animal companion?

What can gibve up Wild Shape for that is acually worthwhile? Spontanous cast + Wild Shape for Shapeshift + Keep AC?

Aximili
2007-04-05, 06:24 PM
No worrying about type changes,
Actually, I think your type doesn't change while you wildshape.
Unless they changed it in some errata.

Starbuck_II
2007-04-05, 07:55 PM
Actually, I think your type doesn't change while you wildshape.
Unless they changed it in some errata.
In the beggining of 3.5 it did,.

Than they errated it so it doesn't. So you are human type in animal form.

I have'nt read Shapeshift if it does give it.