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kpenguin
2007-04-01, 11:40 PM
I've read a lot about broken spells and classes. What about races. What races are considered good and what are considered bad and what are considered down right broken. For the pruposes of this discussion, let's try to keep it within races with a LA of 0.

Caduceus
2007-04-01, 11:47 PM
Half-elves plainly suck. No ability modifiers, just like humans, but at least humes get something useful. Bonus feats and skill points! Half-elves get a +1 on a couple of skills that no one seems to put ranks in (if one samples from OotS, as well as personal experience) and a bonus to Diplomacy (also used almost never in my experience). Even Half-Orcs are better (with their +2 bonus "balanced" by a total -4 penalty and no skill bonuses or other abilities).

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-01, 11:48 PM
Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are considered subpar.

As far as I can tell, the only truly broken LA 0 race that I've encountered so far is Whisper Gnome. Better than normal gnome, same LA.

kpenguin
2007-04-01, 11:50 PM
In my opinion, most of the humanoids from the MM are severely underworked in comparison to the PHB races.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-01, 11:52 PM
Nah. LA+0 races is too restricting. Elves, Dwarves, Halflings come to mind for "far too many bonuses"

Move up to LA+1, you have Goliath(not really broken, but only because Wizards win. The increased weapon size and reach while raging for the cost of 1 level and 1 feat is not really broken, but does blow away most any base Barbarian) Core rules say that a mental stat bonus is balanced by a physical penalty, but not vice versa, but in the scheme of things, they generally don't let an LA+0 race get a bonus to a mental stat(see Blue, which is LA+1), because spellcasters win the game(and thus every spellcaster using that stat would be of that race for most benefit).

Kantolin
2007-04-01, 11:57 PM
Personally, I put half-orcs as lower than half-elves, if for no reason than being pidgeonholed far more hardcore than a half-elf.

I mean, a half-elf can be an anything and be pretty decent at it (Trading 1 Skill point per level and a feat for low-light vision, a +1 bonus to a few useful skills, immunity to sleep, resistance to a couple spells, an additional +2 bonus to a few other skills, and um. Elven. Not bad). They're theoretically on par with humans, with the flaw that being able to do a bunch of things really badly isn't nearly as useful as a feat.

Comparatively, half-orcs get darkvision, a penalty on stats, and a penalty in orc blood. >_> Whoo.

The major reason that there's any reason at all to go with a half-orc over a half-elf is because, admittedly, a half-orc can potentially be pseudo-good at something (Causing physical melee damage), although not as good as most. But man, I'd at least put half-elves above them.

Wood Elves are an enigma. On the one hand, they make the half-orc oh so pointless. On the other hand, the themselves seem more balanced compared to better races than the half-orc, so maybe the half-orc should just absorb Wood Elven stats or sommat.
.

Caduceus
2007-04-01, 11:57 PM
Core rules say that a mental stat bonus is balanced by a physical penalty, but not vice versa, but in the scheme of things, they generally don't let an LA+0 race get a bonus to a mental stat(see Blue, which is LA+1), because spellcasters win the game(and thus every spellcaster using that stat would be of that race for most benefit).

For that matter, Grey Elf. -2 Str +2 Dex -2 Con +2 Int. Favored Class: Wizard (no ****).

MeklorIlavator
2007-04-02, 12:01 AM
Core rules say that a mental stat bonus is balanced by a physical penalty, but not vice versa, but in the scheme of things, they generally don't let an LA+0 race get a bonus to a mental stat(see Blue, which is LA+1), because spellcasters win the game(and thus every spellcaster using that stat would be of that race for most benefit).

In fact, they patently ignored their own rules in regards to Grey elfs and spellscales (according to core, niether should be playable, and both are extremely good for Sorc and Wiz, respectively). Really, stats are pretty much worth the same, and bonuses and penalties have a ratio of sorts. I had a link in my sig to Yabba the Whats Feature Points, a system for balancing homebrewed races, and he worke dout a +2 bonus= 4poinnts, and a -2=-3points, because players build to the races strenghs(this was on the wizards forums.)

Tellah
2007-04-02, 12:04 AM
Yeah, the Grey Elf is pretty much the ultimate in optimization races. I don't allow it--not because I'm against optimization, but because that's all it is. No particularly interesting fluff to go with it, just straight up stats. "See, it's an elf that lives in the mountains, and he's even more aloof than a regular elf!"

Blech.

Kantolin
2007-04-02, 12:04 AM
In fact, they patently ignored their own rules in regards to Grey elfs and spellscales

They, in fact, ignored their rules when it came to gnomes. ^_^ They even give the example of 'Don't give -2 str +2 con'. And personally, insofar as PHB races go, Gnomes are the best spellcasters (And get better if you're playing core-only).

Personally, I'd like to see the theoretically fair +2 Int, +2 Cha, -2 Str unit. I sense you'd get a heck of a lot of units playing that group.
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Person_Man
2007-04-02, 12:21 PM
I believe this list (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=697653) will help.

My favorites include most Dwarves, Human, Catfolk, Whisper Gnome, Darfellan, Dragonborn, Elan, Jermlaine, and Killoren.

jjpickar
2007-04-02, 12:26 PM
WotC has nothing on the player races made for the Warcraft D20 game. It's insane, especially the jungle trolls and the Tauren. And don't even get me started on the monster book.:smallfurious:

Sundog
2007-04-02, 01:34 PM
WotC has nothing on the player races made for the Warcraft D20 game. It's insane, especially the jungle trolls and the Tauren. And don't even get me started on the monster book.:smallfurious:

But remember that Tauren, Night Elves and a bunch of others from WOW are EL+1.

Ranis
2007-04-02, 01:59 PM
I agree on the Wood Elves. I like them a lot, and they are in my world for more than flavor purposes; however, they are quite powerful.

Woot Spitum
2007-04-02, 02:05 PM
But remember that Tauren, Night Elves and a bunch of others from WOW are EL+1.

It's the trolls that push it over the edge. The problem the Warcraft rpg is that the designers were too afraid to drop D&D standard special abilities from certain monsters (trolls and ghouls) to make them more like the Warcraft versions of the monsters. Ideally, only a high level troll with racial paragon levels would get any sort of regeneration. And ghouls are fodder! Fodder! Weaker than a first level warrior fodder! They do not need to be a high powered template.

Telonius
2007-04-02, 02:18 PM
For standard races, I'd say that Gnomes and Dwarves are at the upper end of the power scale. Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are at the lower. Humans, Elves and Halflings are in the middle somewhere.

Person_Man
2007-04-02, 02:52 PM
I agree on the Wood Elves. I like them a lot, and they are in my world for more than flavor purposes; however, they are quite powerful.

I wouldn't say they are powerful. I'd say they are balanced. Remember, in the rock paper scissors of D&D, spellcasting beats melee. So a minor bonus To-Hit and Damage are nifty, but not really as good as bonus spells, Skill points, and a modifier to the Save DC of every spell cast. Besides, look at other (non-orcish) races with a bonus to Str:


Wood Elves are +2 Str +2 Dex -2 Con -2 Int, with some minor elven bonuses.
Darfellan are +2 Str -2 Dex with a bite attack (which can always be used as part of a full attack at -5, and natural attacks qualify for Power Attack).
Earth Dwarf are +2 Str +2 Con -2 Dex -2 Cha with Dwarf bonuses.
Neanderthal are +2 Str -2 Dex +2 Con -2 Int.
Lesser Earth Genasi, perhaps the best strait melee race, are +2 Str +2 Con -2 Wis -2 Cha.
Skarns are +2 Str -2 Dex.
So I think its clear that Wood Elves are balanced, not powerful.

axraelshelm
2007-04-02, 03:00 PM
wow no one has mentioned warforge yet which is the top end of the 0 adjustment with so many immunitities most monsters cant harm you.

Ashes
2007-04-02, 03:09 PM
wow no one has mentioned warforge yet which is the top end of the 0 adjustment with so many immunitities most monsters cant harm you.

That's because they are no more unbalanced than Dwarves. Powerful, yes. Broken, no. Remember, a lot of what they get gives them penalties as well. Construct type? Immunity to a lot of offensive spells. But also a whole lot of lovely buffs. And the healing is hard to come by, unless you have a wizard who just loves to memorize spells that only heal the Warforged. And we all know that they are a dime a dozen :rolleyes:

axraelshelm
2007-04-02, 03:15 PM
That's because they are no more unbalanced than Dwarves. Powerful, yes. Broken, no. Remember, a lot of what they get gives them penalties as well. Construct type? Immunity to a lot of offensive spells. But also a whole lot of lovely buffs. And the healing is hard to come by, unless you have a wizard who just loves to memorize spells that only heal the Warforged. And we all know that they are a dime a dozen :rolleyes:

yeah alreay got that covered get 1/2 healing from cleric for 4 levels ish then take repair damage power with a feat for psionic warrior

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 03:20 PM
Clearly, wizards are the most unbalanced race.

axraelshelm
2007-04-02, 03:22 PM
Clearly, wizards are the most unbalanced race.

A race of wizards? i can see it now mega city one but everyone is packing wands and staffs.

Telonius
2007-04-02, 03:26 PM
wow no one has mentioned warforge yet which is the top end of the 0 adjustment with so many immunitities most monsters cant harm you.

I wish that were the case. We spend more resources healing our Warforged Barbarian than any other character in our group. Doesn't help that we're without an Artificer, but still. Conjuration(Healing) spells only work halfway as well on them. The immunities are great, but certainly don't make them invulnerable. It's not a golem, you don't get all of the construct traits, or DR, or anything like that. Plus, you have the "Half-Orc Problem" of having 2 negative ability scores (Wis and Cha) to only one positive (Con).

Ivius
2007-04-02, 03:28 PM
yeah alreay got that covered get 1/2 healing from cleric for 4 levels ish then take repair damage power with a feat for psionic warrior

But what if you're not a psionic warrior? I don't have Eberron, but Warforged seem like a pure melee race (perhaps crippling them, but that's another story). In the front lines, they'll be taking a lot of hits, and will need healing. It can be a real burden having to cast CLW twice.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-02, 03:29 PM
half elves may be subpar but thats all i play, rather be a subpar race and beat the rest of the party then a 5 times template power gamer who...again losses to a half elf sorcerer/shugenja/mystic theurge...

Ashes
2007-04-02, 03:42 PM
yeah alreay got that covered get 1/2 healing from cleric for 4 levels ish then take repair damage power with a feat for psionic warrior

Oh so, what you mean is that they're broken, because they can take one specific class, and one specific ability and then funcion almost like a human? Yeah, I can see your point.:smallamused:


half elves may be subpar but thats all i play, rather be a subpar race and beat the rest of the party then a 5 times template power gamer who...again losses to a half elf sorcerer/shugenja/mystic theurge...

Wow... You must be playing with some very sucky powergamers, if that is better than what they can do...

Person_Man
2007-04-02, 04:00 PM
wow no one has mentioned warforge yet which is the top end of the 0 adjustment with so many immunitities most monsters cant harm you.

There are a bunch of races that count as Fey or Aberration or whatever that get various immunities, but without the healing magic screw over.

Plus keep in mind Immunities are often duplicative of high Saves and certain class abilities. So, being immune to poison and disease isn't very helpful if you have a high Fort Save or if you're a Druid or Monk.

axraelshelm
2007-04-02, 04:01 PM
[quote=Ashes;2309769]Oh so, what you mean is that they're broken, because they can take one specific class, and one specific ability and then funcion almost like a human? Yeah, I can see your point.:smallamused:

Well i was just pointing out what i might be going to do in the future. I never said warforge is broken just top end of 0 with immunity to sleep,poison,paralysis,disease,nausea,fatigue,exha ustion and energy drain. Not to mention no need to eat,sleep or breath. If healing is taken care of by another party member great if not pick up favor soul "huge ammount of healing" articfer "repair spells"
Psion "repair power",psychic warrior "repair power"
Cleric "hit them so hard you dont need cure spells but have just in case"
5 just off my head and with all the supplements out there I bet theres so much more you can do with the wraforge.

Indon
2007-04-02, 04:45 PM
It's the trolls that push it over the edge. The problem the Warcraft rpg is that the designers were too afraid to drop D&D standard special abilities from certain monsters (trolls and ghouls) to make them more like the Warcraft versions of the monsters. Ideally, only a high level troll with racial paragon levels would get any sort of regeneration. And ghouls are fodder! Fodder! Weaker than a first level warrior fodder! They do not need to be a high powered template.

The newer version of the WoW RPG only gives trolls Fast Healing as part of their racial levels, and as a jungle troll you have to really push CON to get more than Fast Healing 3 (You'd need 26 CON for Fast Healing 4).

Also keep in mind that the WoW RPG is overall a bit higher-level than standard D&D. Even humans get at least one more perk (Favored Enemy: Orc) than their D&D equivalents.

Latronis
2007-04-02, 05:02 PM
I maintain that Sharakim arn't anymore powerful then dwarves yet they are LA+1

Zincorium
2007-04-02, 05:09 PM
I maintain that Sharakim arn't anymore powerful then dwarves yet they are LA+1

Probably the natural armor. Also, dwarves have selectively reduced speed, which is a disadvantage to balance out their many small abilities. I don't think they deserve to be LA +1 though.

Hobgoblins are probably the most screwed over race as far as LA. They get nothing except good overall ability scores in dex and con, and I have never heard of a character who was overpowered because of those two.

arnoldrew
2007-04-02, 07:03 PM
But remember that Tauren, Night Elves and a bunch of others from WOW are EL+1.

Nope, they're all LA+0. You can, however, take racial levels.

Clementx
2007-04-02, 07:27 PM
Hobgoblins are probably the most screwed over race as far as LA. They get nothing except good overall ability scores in dex and con, and I have never heard of a character who was overpowered because of those two.
Definitely. I've given them +1d6 damage when flanking and +2 dodge to AC when defensive/CEing for -2, and removed the, "ITS A GOBLIN KILL IT" aspect from the setting, and munchkins still gloss over it out of force of habit.

Compare them to Aasimar. They don't get Outsider-type goodness beyond Darkvision, same ability scores, no elemental resistances, and no Daylight. Instead, they get to be every ranger's lvl1 Favored Enemy.

Thoughtbot360
2007-04-02, 08:06 PM
Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are considered subpar.

As far as I can tell, the only truly broken LA 0 race that I've encountered so far is Whisper Gnome. Better than normal gnome, same LA.

I agree. The Orc (not the Half-Orc, the fullblood Orc) gets a +4 bonus to strength, and you can abuse that much harder than +2. Of course, the Orc also has daylight sensitivity, further "balancing" with another -2 penalty (in wisdom) and there's even more subtext than the Half-orc when the party fight orcs (which they seem to almost always do at some point...).

Latronis
2007-04-03, 02:01 AM
Probably the natural armor. Also, dwarves have selectively reduced speed, which is a disadvantage to balance out their many small abilities. I don't think they deserve to be LA +1 though.

Hobgoblins are probably the most screwed over race as far as LA. They get nothing except good overall ability scores in dex and con, and I have never heard of a character who was overpowered because of those two.

That natural armour also comes one a medium sized -2 dex critter

Like all races they get racial skill bonuses unlike most standard races they are situational applied

then they have light sensitivity

Besides the dwarf taking no speed penalty in full plate is a greater advantage then 20' speed is a disadvantage.

less so then light sensitivity.

JaronK
2007-04-03, 02:08 AM
The strongest races are the ones that are good for the strongest classes... mostly that means Human and Strongheart Halfling are the big winners, as the extra feat is useful for Archivists, Wizards, Druids, Artificers, etc. Grey Elves, with their boost to Int, are likewise good because they make good Wizards and Archivists.

Gnomes can be Shadowcraft Mages. Whispergnomes can too, but the +1 to Illusions of regular Gnomes mean the core Gnome is better than Whispergnomes.

Water Halflings are really good... -2Str, +2Con, +2Dex, Small Size, all the Halfling Goodies, no LA.

A lot of people think Whispergnomes are very good, but they have the same problem that the Warforged have... they're good at being subpar classes, but they're not as good at being the top classes. Sure, Whispergnomes make great rogues, but since when have rogues been uber? That said, Warforged can make great Artificers, so they can be up there.

JaronK

Zincorium
2007-04-03, 03:30 AM
That natural armour also comes one a medium sized -2 dex critter

Like all races they get racial skill bonuses unlike most standard races they are situational applied

then they have light sensitivity

Besides the dwarf taking no speed penalty in full plate is a greater advantage then 20' speed is a disadvantage.

less so then light sensitivity.

I'm not saying the +1 justifies it, but it's something that WotC has stated is worth a +1 LA. Just like a claw/claw/bite routine that does 1d2/1d2/1d3 is worth a +1. LA is all sorts of messed up.

And as far as the speed thing: Dwarf with heavy armor: 20'. Human with heavy armor: 20'. Dwarf with light armor: 20'. Human with light armor: 30'.

Substitute any other medium pc race in the PHB for human and it still holds true. It's not a big disadvantage, but it's definitely not an advantage.

Latronis
2007-04-03, 05:37 AM
I'm not saying the +1 justifies it, but it's something that WotC has stated is worth a +1 LA. Just like a claw/claw/bite routine that does 1d2/1d2/1d3 is worth a +1. LA is all sorts of messed up.

And as far as the speed thing: Dwarf with heavy armor: 20'. Human with heavy armor: 20'. Dwarf with light armor: 20'. Human with light armor: 30'.

Substitute any other medium pc race in the PHB for human and it still holds true. It's not a big disadvantage, but it's definitely not an advantage.

Emphasis mine

that's exactly my point, while a 20' speed is somewhat of a disadavantage the fact remains a dwarf, every dwarf, can run around in fullplate without taking a speed hit. The slow dwarf suddenly runs at the same speed as a human in fullplate. No speed penalty in fullplate is more of an advantage then the racial 20' speed is a disadvantage.

Yes LA is rather messed up at times, but thats my whole point, while many consider the dwarf the most powerful of the core LA0 zero races, the Sharakim isn't any more powerful then the dwarf and less optimal a caster then say a gray elf even if it were at LA0.

Ontop of that the dex hit almost negates the natural armour, they are little harder to hit flatfooted then a human, but easier to hit with a touch attack. The dex also negates half of there already situational racial skill bonii. And a dex hit hurts an arcane caster (and they have wizard as favoured class) more then a strength bonus benefits them.

They might make a decent night watchman except elves are already better at that with the awareness of elves not situational as it is with sharakim and low-light vision being better in this instance then dark vision, then there's that Level adjustment meaning they have less skill points aswell.

The LA makes them a crappy gish, which at la0 they might be actually good at and the level adjustment and stat penalties make them a poor choice for about any class.

Remove the light sensitivity and dex penalty and you'd probably have a solid LA+1 race, as is they are far better choices in the LA0 camp for about anything.

Khantalas
2007-04-03, 05:44 AM
A lot of people think Whispergnomes are very good, but they have the same problem that the Warforged have... they're good at being subpar classes, but they're not as good at being the top classes. Sure, Whispergnomes make great rogues, but since when have rogues been uber? That said, Warforged can make great Artificers, so they can be up there.

What? You get +2 Dex and +2 Con, without a wisdom or intelligence penalty. You make a terrific wizard or cleric. And you also have 30 ft. movement speed, which helps before you get fly.

So, normal gnomes get a +1 to illusion spell DCs. Compare that to +1 to AC, +1 to Reflex saves, +1 to ranged touch attacks (like, ray of enfeeblement).

Seriously, Whisper Gnomes exist to feed us gnome fanboys. There are more of us than you think.

Were-Sandwich
2007-04-03, 05:49 AM
I like Skarn. For aesthetic reasons really. They're just so awesome.

Zincorium
2007-04-03, 06:02 AM
that's exactly my point, while a 20' speed is somewhat of a disadavantage the fact remains a dwarf, every dwarf, can run around in fullplate without taking a speed hit. The slow dwarf suddenly runs at the same speed as a human in fullplate. No speed penalty in fullplate is more of an advantage then the racial 20' speed is a disadvantage.

They're medium critters. They're as fast as any medium critter when wearing armor. That's not an advantage, nor is it a disadvantage, it's just plain even. They're slower than any other medium race in any other situation. That's a disadvantage.

Reduced speed + no further reduction for heavy armor = Normal speed - reduction for heavy armor. Not an advantage. To use your phrase, yes, every single dwarf can run around in full plate without taking a speed penalty, at 20'. Every single human can run around in full plate at the same speed. Why is a dwarf's 20' better than the human's 20'?

To look at it another way, take some theoretical race that gets an additional +10 to their speed when unarmored. That's an advantage, right? A pretty clear if not very large one.

Relative to dwarves, every single medium race has this ability. Thus, dwarves have a disadvantage.

Dwarves only move faster when wearing armor compared to small creatures, which dwarves are not. There's not much reason to compare them to small creatures, because of all the other differences.

Latronis
2007-04-03, 07:00 AM
They're medium critters. They're as fast as any medium critter when wearing armor. That's not an advantage, nor is it a disadvantage, it's just plain even. They're slower than any other medium race in any other situation. That's a disadvantage.

Compare a heavy armour dwarf to an unarmoured dwarf and they have the same speed, they have a racial ability to ignore that disadvantage of heavy armours.

That's an advantage when theres less incentive not to take a heavier armour.


Reduced speed + no further reduction for heavy armor = Normal speed - reduction for heavy armor. Not an advantage. To use your phrase, yes, every single dwarf can run around in full plate without taking a speed penalty, at 20'. Every single human can run around in full plate at the same speed. Why is a dwarf's 20' better than the human's 20'?

Because in that instance the disadvantage is negated. Heavy armour no longer slows them down. Yes a naked human moves faster but just from racial abilities a dwarf wearing heavy armour is not slowed like a human. Reduced speed is a disadvantage, no speed penalty for heavy armour is an advantage. Dwarves simply can't move as fast as a human or an elf, they're build makes them slower much like the small races. A human wearing fullplate travels the same speed as a dwarf in fullplate, and he's sacrificed ability in a way the dwarf hasn't.

The point is you don't sacrifice speed to wear the heaviest armours. You're a dwarf you have a 20' speed. It's part balance, part flavour. It's a clear advantage even if it ain't game breaking, you get to wear heavy armour without slowing down.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-03, 07:39 AM
They don't even need to be wearing Armour. A Medium or Heavy Load works just as well.

Arn!e
2007-04-03, 09:56 AM
Personally, my fav is the Krynn Minotaur from Dragonlance. LA +0; Speed 30'; +4 Str, -2 to Dex, Int, and Cha; +2 Natural AC; Size: Medium; natural gore and charge attack. No darkvision, can take Scent as a feat.

I'm currently playing a cleric: 21 Str, 10 Dex, 17 Con, 12 Int, 16 Wis, 13 Cha (Yeah, good rolls).

Zincorium
2007-04-03, 04:39 PM
Compare a heavy armour dwarf to an unarmoured dwarf and they have the same speed, they have a racial ability to ignore that disadvantage of heavy armours.

That's an advantage when theres less incentive not to take a heavier armour.


An advantage only over other dwarves. It is not an advantage over other races. The 20' movement speed and the ignoring of armor go hand in hand, medium creatures are supposed to move at 30' unarmored and 20' when wearing medium or heavy armor and or encumbered. Dwarves fit the 2nd one. They are penalized in regards to the first.




Because in that instance the disadvantage is negated. Heavy armour no longer slows them down. Yes a naked human moves faster but just from racial abilities a dwarf wearing heavy armour is not slowed like a human. Reduced speed is a disadvantage, no speed penalty for heavy armour is an advantage. Dwarves simply can't move as fast as a human or an elf, they're build makes them slower much like the small races. A human wearing fullplate travels the same speed as a dwarf in fullplate, and he's sacrificed ability in a way the dwarf hasn't.


That's like complaining that a fighter doesn't suffer from arcane spell failure, and is thus better than a wizard.



The point is you don't sacrifice speed to wear the heaviest armours. You're a dwarf you have a 20' speed. It's part balance, part flavour. It's a clear advantage even if it ain't game breaking, you get to wear heavy armour without slowing down.

Okay, let's pretend that dwarves did not have the ability. Movement unarmored, 20', movement armored, 15'. Disadvantage compared to other races in every situation. That's worth some compensation, right?

Now, specifically when armored, dwarves move at 20' as opposed to 15'. That's 5'. Barbarians get twice that at first level as a bonus speed.


Dwarves get a -10 penalty when not armored. They get a +5 bonus when armored. It's not an advantage overall. The fact that you're not addressing is that they're still just as slow as any character wearing full plate, is the fact that they're not slowed down even further somehow an advantage? To where a human in full plate can outrun them easily?

TheThan
2007-04-03, 07:02 PM
A friend let me borrow his warcraft rpg book and in it, it says high elves, night elves and Tauren are all +1 LA races. I personally donít like the Taurenís head bunt ability. Seems to me they should have their warstomp ability from Warcraft III instead, but thatís just me. plus I like their take on the orcs, both flavor and mechanically just always have liked it.

arnoldrew
2007-04-04, 01:19 AM
The most recent edition is the World of Warcraft RPG. I think it's a lot better, especially in the races part.

Latronis
2007-04-04, 09:21 AM
An advantage only over other dwarves. It is not an advantage over other races. The 20' movement speed and the ignoring of armor go hand in hand, medium creatures are supposed to move at 30' unarmored and 20' when wearing medium or heavy armor and or encumbered. Dwarves fit the 2nd one. They are penalized in regards to the first.

If you are so inclined to compare them to other races then compare them to all other races, not just what suits your argument. No other core race can ignore that penalty to heavy armour\load.

It is an advantage when a naked dwarf and a fullarmoured dwarf run at the same speed. There is no hit to speed for heavy armour or a heavy load. They can be a pack mule and still operate without penalty that others suffer from.


Now, specifically when armored, dwarves move at 20' as opposed to 15'. That's 5'. Barbarians get twice that at first level as a bonus speed.

a bonus speed that is particularly mentioned as being negated by a medium\heavy load or heavy armour. Even a human barbarian in full plate only moves at 20'

Dark
2007-04-04, 10:55 AM
I
It is an advantage when a naked dwarf and a fullarmoured dwarf run at the same speed. There is no hit to speed for heavy armour or a heavy load. They can be a pack mule and still operate without penalty that others suffer from.

That just means that, unlike every other race, dwarves get no speed bonus for being lightly encumbered.

Latronis
2007-04-04, 11:11 AM
If you got a speed bonus for being lightly unencumbered then a human would go faster then human base speed for being lightly encumbered.

You don't get a bonus for being lightly encumbered, you get a speed penalty for being heavily encumbered, unless you're a dwarf.

Kantolin
2007-04-04, 02:54 PM
Latronis, you're suggesting that the fact that dwarves do not get a speed reduction for wearing heavy armour is an advantage.

The rebuttal is that dwarves perpetually move at 'encumbered' speed, thus making the above a mild disadvantage over an advantage. Dwarves move either slower or at the same speed as other medium units.

If it was worded "Dwarves have normal medium 30ft movement, but are treated as encumbered even when not wearing heavy armour", would it sound more like a penalty?

Zincorium
2007-04-04, 04:33 PM
If you are so inclined to compare them to other races then compare them to all other races, not just what suits your argument. No other core race can ignore that penalty to heavy armour\load.


No other medium race moves at 20' to begin with. That's what I'm comparing them with, other races with the same freakin' size category. I'm not comparing them to large creatures, and I'm not comparing them to small creatures, because they aren't either.

And I did point out that with a base move speed of 20', the normal speed they'd move is 15'? they're only getting 5' points of increased speed. 5'. Not 10', not 15', 5'. They take a whopping -10' to their speed compared to all others in their size category when unarmored, and a 0' bonus to their speed compared to other medium creatures when armored.

0' bonus. I could just as easily say a 0' penalty. They don't move any faster.



It is an advantage when a naked dwarf and a fullarmoured dwarf run at the same speed. There is no hit to speed for heavy armour or a heavy load. They can be a pack mule and still operate without penalty that others suffer from.
If you don't have the speed to lose, then yes, you haven't lost anything. And a human wearing that full plate moves the same speed. Why is the human less useful for carrying stuff around?



a bonus speed that is particularly mentioned as being negated by a medium\heavy load or heavy armour. Even a human barbarian in full plate only moves at 20'Right. And a dwarven wizard with nothing on only moves at 20'. This is slower than a human wizard.

Seriously, what the **** are you trying to prove? Dwarves are either slower or only as fast as anything in their size category. They are not faster than anything. If they were, that might be an advantage, but they aren't.

Assassinfox
2007-04-04, 05:13 PM
A medium non-dwarf moves 30ft unencumbered, right? A medium non-dwarf in heavy armor moves 20ft. A dwarf in no armor moves 20ft. A dwarf in armor moves 20ft.

Still with me?

Basically, a dwarf is just a medium humanoid that's always encumbered. It always moves as though in heavy armor, regardless of whether its wearing armor or not. If it puts on a suit of heavy armor, it doesn't move any slower because it's, technically, already encumbered.

That's not an advantage, that's a definite disadvantage.

Fhaolan
2007-04-04, 05:37 PM
Now, if a Dwarf was Small, with all the disadvantages/advantages of being Small, and still had the 'ignore heavy armor' thing, that would be an advantage. As a Medium creature however, what they have is the disadvantage of being effectively encumbered no matter what they are wearing.

I still think the Dwarf's advantages outweigh it's disadvantages, though, relative to other EL+0 races.

Vortling
2007-04-04, 09:55 PM
If I may interrupt the discussion about the dwarf armor speed for a moment. As a newer DnD player I'd like to know where people place these four races in the over/underpowered continuum based on their LA.
Aasimar
Tiefling
Catfolk
Drow

Thank you.

Starsinger
2007-04-05, 12:18 AM
Why do Blue's have a LA of +1? Are they that overpowered?

Ryuuk
2007-04-05, 12:41 AM
If I may interrupt the discussion about the dwarf armor speed for a moment. As a newer DnD player I'd like to know where people place these four races in the over/underpowered continuum based on their LA.
Aasimar
Tiefling
Catfolk
Drow

Thank you.

I view them like this:

1) Catfolk - They get a net +6 to stats, 40ft movement speed, and a natural armor bonus, which makes the +1 pretty worthwhile and gives them plenty of options class wise.
2) Tiefling - They have a net +2 to stats, the Outsider subtype, Darkness as a spell like ability and resistance against fire. Assuming you don't mind getting odd looks from most authority good figures (though that depends on the game), they're good doing anything not charisma based, since +2 Dex and +2 Int always seems to come in handy.
3) Aaismar - They have a net +4 to stats, Outsider subtype, Daylight as a spell like ability and resistance against acid. They're pretty close to the Tiefling as would be expected, but resistance to acid and Daylight don't seem as useful as resistance to fire and Darkness. Their bonuses are designed for Paladins, but few classes would find them as useful, at least when compared to the Tiefling's. It's mostly a matter of taste between these two though.

Drow are +2 LA, so it's not really fare to compare them. Their racial abilities are better, but the lack of hitpoints/BAB/casting/skills becomes a bit more noticeable here. I would probably rank them below the above three, on the LA alone.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-05, 01:08 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Elan.

Psion is nearly as bad as Wizard for pressing the 'I Win' button (not quite as bad, but still worse than any melee class). So I get more PP, an option to save my life by spending (admittedly, a rediculous amount of) PP, jack up my saves with PP, negate needing to eat/drink with a single PP per day, and oh yea... it's an Aberration. Dominate Person? No effect. Oh yea, one of the lesser-known Aberration traits: Proficent in all simple weapons. That Psion class with Wizard weapon proficencies? Yea, got all simple weapon proficencies free. Not a big advantage, granted, but hey... it's a free feat.

Karma Guard
2007-04-05, 01:12 AM
I'm always griping about the Githzerai's absolutely crazy +6 Dex to my friends, even though I know better.

But, maybe I don't. Which one is better, the Githzerai or the Githyanki? I use the psionic versions, personally.

I know they're LA+2.

Out of the LA+0 races, I feel bad for the Half-Orcs. They got nothing, really. :(

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-05, 01:36 AM
I was just exposed to the mineral warrior template. For only a +1 LA, you get +2 str, +4 con (at a -2 cost to all mental stats), +3 natural armor, a burrow speed at half your movement, and a special ability that lets you add con bonus to attack and racial HD to damage 1/day. Also, gain darkvision and damage reduction 8/adamantine(!)

Beren One-Hand
2007-04-05, 01:56 AM
Basically, a dwarf is just a medium humanoid that's always encumbered. It always moves as though in heavy armor, regardless of whether its wearing armor or not. If it puts on a suit of heavy armor, it doesn't move any slower because it's, technically, already encumbered.

That's not an advantage, that's a definite disadvantage.

The only way I can see this being an advantage is if the Dwarf was a Barbarian. Then he'd have 30' speed in medium armor. All other Barbarians have their speed reduced to 20' (or 15' if the're small) when wearing medium armor.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-05, 02:00 AM
You may be thinking of evasion or scouts or something. Barbarians get to wear medium armor and keep their fast movement.


Fast Movement (Ex)

A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

Beren One-Hand
2007-04-05, 02:37 AM
Fast Movement (Ex)

A barbarianís land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarianís speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

I fixed the Bold for you. :smallwink:
Non-dwarf barbarians get their speed upped by fast movement then penalized by wearing medium armor. Dwarves don't get penalized by the armor.

Zincorium
2007-04-05, 03:30 AM
I fixed the Bold for you. :smallwink:
Non-dwarf barbarians get their speed upped by fast movement then penalized by wearing medium armor. Dwarves don't get penalized by the armor.

Still, it's the same thing as before.

Human barbarian, no or light armor: 40' (base 30, +10 for barbarian)
Dwarf barbarian, light or no armor: 30' (base 20, +10 for barbarian)

Advantage: human, by 10 feet.

Human barbarian, medium armor: 30' (base 30, +10 barbarian, -10 armor)
Dwarf barbarian, medium armor: 30' (base 20, +10 barbarian)

Advantage: neither, both move at same speed.

Human barbarian, heavy armor: 20' (30 base, -10 armor)
Dwarf barbarian, heavy armor: 20' (20 base)

Advantage: again, neither has an advantage, as they are moving at the same speed.

Conclusion: Human (or elf, orc, half orc, planetouched, half elf, etc.) barbarians are faster when wearing light or no armor. Otherwise, it's exactly the same. At no point is the dwarf ever moving faster than the other medium races no matter what armor type is involved.

Smaller races, yes, the dwarven barbarian is moving faster when wearing medium or heavy armor. Dwarves aren't small, so this isn't a meaningful comparison, as they lack the advantages of being small and every single drawback. They just coincidentally have the same movement speed as many small races.

Dark
2007-04-05, 04:47 AM
Dwarf barbarian, medium armor: 30' (base 20, +10 barbarian)
I don't think it works that way. From the SRD: "Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations)." (emphasis mine)

So their exception applies to moving at 20 feet. It doesn't necessarily let them keep the increased speed from being a barbarian.

What about hasted dwarves?

Caduceus
2007-04-05, 05:32 AM
It does allow the dwarves to keep that bonus, because the bonus applies to barbarians wearing anything short of heavy armor. They are encumbered, yes, but that doesn't naturally slow them down, nor does it interfere with Fast Movement.

Personally, I feel like Wizards was throwing the dwarf a bone. They got screwed over as melee combatants by the speed alone (15 ft. every round, you can only keep up with your enemies with a double move). I would never have played them with the 3.0 stats. 3.5 makes them interesting, however.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-05, 05:35 AM
Smaller races, yes, the dwarven barbarian is moving faster when wearing medium or heavy armor. Dwarves aren't small, so this isn't a meaningful comparison, as they lack the advantages of being small and every single drawback. They just coincidentally have the same movement speed as many small races.

About the only "advantages" small races get are +1 to hit/AC, which is really only against things bigger than them(cancels itself out on their own size, smaller you get, easier it becomes to hit things). Dwarves also don't get "every single drawback". Smaller races have reduced carrying limits(and usually -Strength on top of it), smaller reach(which isn't really enforced on Small characters, since they should actually need to use reach weapons to fight in 5' squares without provoking), smaller weapons(doing less damage, and even less with the -Strength).

boffer
2007-04-05, 05:48 AM
I am surprised that noone has mentioned kobold or mongrelfolk... for those who is unfamiliar with mongrelfolk they are humanoid(human) with +4 con-2 int -4 cha, low-light vision, auto-success when using racial items, (ie. if something only may be used by an elf or whatever, a mongrel may use it...), mimic voices, immune to sleep, +2 on saves to resist spells that target a specific race, +1 on saves vs illusion and enchantment, +1 on saves vs poison, +1 in appraise, climb, jump, listen, move silently, search and spot, +4 in hide and sleight of hand. favored class rouge, la=0

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-05, 05:50 AM
Kobolds are hideously weak. They're practically an LA -1.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-05, 03:43 PM
Kobolds are hideously weak. They're practically an LA -1.

Yes, they're so weak that PunPun came from their race...

Seriously, though... have you looked through the Dragonomicon? Kobols are pure crack sorcerer cheeze.

Person_Man
2007-04-05, 04:11 PM
Yes, they're so weak that PunPun came from their race...

Seriously, though... have you looked through the Dragonomicon? Kobols are pure crack sorcerer cheeze.

WotC approved Variant Kobolds (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Also, check out Races of the Dragon+Draconomicon.

Kobolds get +3 to AC (+1 Small, +1 Dex, +1 Natural). Using claws and a bite, any Kobold can get 3 attacks at 1st level. And they have 30 feet of movement, which is unusual for a small race. Together with Power Attack (which applies to all natural weapons) this makes Kobold melee builds viable.

Kobold Sorcerers can get +1 Caster Level (including spells known and spells per day). Using Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. This alone makes them some of the best casters in the game.

Any Kobold can take the Dragonwraught feat to gain the Dragon type - giving them immunities, the ability to use Alter Self to change into a Dragon, and access to all sorts of feats. Using them, a Kobold can get flight, a tail attack, damage reduction, Spell Resistance equal to their Hit Dice, some uber breath weapons, and other goodies.

Zincorium
2007-04-05, 04:29 PM
About the only "advantages" small races get are +1 to hit/AC, which is really only against things bigger than them(cancels itself out on their own size, smaller you get, easier it becomes to hit things). Dwarves also don't get "every single drawback". Smaller races have reduced carrying limits(and usually -Strength on top of it), smaller reach(which isn't really enforced on Small characters, since they should actually need to use reach weapons to fight in 5' squares without provoking), smaller weapons(doing less damage, and even less with the -Strength).

Would it have made more sense if I had phrased it as "They lack all advantages and they also lack every single drawback as well"? Because that's how it was intended. I don't usually play small characters as frontline combatants due to all the wierdness, playing a caster or skillmonkey doesn't penalize you nearly as much. Dwarves are excellent for when you're in dungeons or somewhere else with little room to maneuver, as they're speed disadvantage rarely comes up.

PlatinumJester
2007-04-05, 04:36 PM
Playing a pseudodragon barbarian is obviously the best combination ever 'cos it pwns everything.