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Oddball
2015-01-14, 08:10 PM
So i recently built a prestige class from the ground up and would like some opinions on balance of the class.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q_sTMR4z9-ufZsgPhFZkXjx-odrtYnLppGpBNO7Xp_M/edit?usp=sharing

1-4 is underpowered to a varying degree
5 is balanced
6-10 is broken to a varying degree

Blackhawk748
2015-01-14, 08:21 PM
Thats a 6+, Full BaB, Full Casting progression, a bunch of bonus feats, 3 bonus domains, and that final ability. (which blatantly favors prepared spellcasters) Also im not sure what that first level ability i supposed to do, also this would probably belong in the homebrew section.

Oddball
2015-01-14, 08:27 PM
Ironically I wrote this with a sorceress in mind. As for the last point, apparently I can never post on a forum without botching it somehow.

Blackhawk748
2015-01-14, 08:29 PM
Ironically I wrote this with a sorceress in mind. As for the last point, apparently I can never post on a forum without botching it somehow.

Eh no big deal, happens often enough on here, just report your first post and ask the mods to move it to homebrew for you.

rockdeworld
2015-01-14, 08:34 PM
Before discussing balance, a few things jump out:
1. One of the requirements is "Move silently +3d6", which is not a thing. I guess that used to be Sneak Attack and you changed the ability but not the number.
2. "Base attack bonus" says you can choose this or another class's BAB progression, but this class has full BAB, so there's no reason to ever choose another class's progression.
3. The reflex save progression is wierd, and probably shouldn't be that way.
4. "Guiding Vision" mentions a path of vengeance, but no such ability is listed in the prerequisites or class abilities. In the same ability, "Those whose oaths are unfulfilled" ambiguously refers to both the Blade of Vengeance and "those they can help". Also this ability doesn't have any defined effect on gameplay.
5. "Bonus Feat" should probably read "At 3rd, 5th, and 9th the Blade gets a metamagic feat. If she already possess that feat, she may choose another metamagic, item creation, or fighter bonus feat."
6. For "Extra Domain" what happens if the character doesn't have spellcasting? Also the wording is confusing.
7. What is a "Full Blade"?

Balance: It's a +1/borderline +2 PrC (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0) for wizards/sorcerers because they trivially meet the requirements and get 7 bonus metamagic feats, 4 of which they can choose, better skill points, better hit dice, and better BAB. Definitely +2 once they reach Conduit of Retribution, which is just amazing (brokenly so). It's a +1/borderline +2 PrC for fighters because they get domain spells (I think?). Using your scale, 7 until level 10, then 10 if you're a prepared caster.
Other notes:
1. Why can Wizards/Clerics enter at level 6, but fighters have to wait until level 7 (BAB +6 requirement)?
2. 3+Int skill points is bad. Either 2 or 4 is the standard, and I suggest 4 - no one's ever had too many skill points.

Blackhawk748
2015-01-14, 08:46 PM
7. What is a "Full Blade"?

Its an Exotic Weapon from Arms and Equipment Guide, it does 2d8 and its two handed, think Cloud's Buster Sword.

Oddball
2015-01-14, 08:55 PM
1 Yes that is correct
2 I misread the rules for BAB progression so yeah that section is leaving
3 Noted
4 Guiding vision is almost entirely fluff I am considering removing it.
5 Noted
6 That is accounted for I apparently left it out while reformatting I will reinclude (probably a word) it shortly.
7 A full blade is the next step up from a greatsword 2d8 damage size huge requires an exotic weapon proficiency. It is used a bit more than I would have thought given it's obscurity and seems to be one of those thing that everyone who uses it has a similar original idea.

1 Fighters have base attack bonus +6/+1 at 6th level meaning that they qualify at the same level as Wizards/Clerics
2 noted
Is conduit really that bad I really thought that it was a bit underdone especially at it's level?

Blackhawk748
2015-01-14, 09:01 PM
1 Yes that is correct
2 I misread the rules for BAB progression so yeah that section is leaving
3 Noted
4 Guiding vision is almost entirely fluff I am considering removing it.
5 Noted
6 That is accounted for I apparently left it out while reformatting I will reinclude (probably a word) it shortly.
7 A full blade is the next step up from a greatsword 2d8 damage size huge requires an exotic weapon proficiency. It is used a bit more than I would have thought given it's obscurity and seems to be one of those thing that everyone who uses it has a similar original idea.

1 Fighters have base attack bonus +6/+1 at 6th level meaning that they qualify at the same level as Wizards/Clerics
2 noted
Is conduit really that bad I really thought that it was a bit underdone especially at it's level?

Its Practical Metamagic for all Metamagic feats if your prepared, which is crazy awesome. That ability is one of the reasons why Incantatrix is considered amazing. (its not identical but its very similar.)

Savannah
2015-01-14, 09:11 PM
The Mod One Out: Moved to Homebrew Design.

Keledrath
2015-01-14, 09:22 PM
1 Fighters have base attack bonus +6/+1 at 6th level meaning that they qualify at the same level as Wizards/Clerics

No, Fighters have +6 BAB at level 6. Wizards/Clerics can cast 3rd level spells at level 5.

Oddball
2015-01-14, 09:32 PM
Yes clerics and Wizard apply at level 5 Sorceresses at 6 and anything with full BAB also at six. There is a image of the fighter progression my group uses at the bottom of the document that is all i can really say to any debate regarding their BAB.

XionUnborn01
2015-01-15, 12:21 AM
Yes clerics and Wizard apply at level 5 Sorceresses at 6 and anything with full BAB also at six. There is a image of the fighter progression my group uses at the bottom of the document that is all i can really say to any debate regarding their BAB.

A Wizard can take this class as their 6th class level because they get 3rd level spells at wizard level 5 so upon reaching level 6 they can choose this class to be their 6th level.
A cleric can take this class as their 6th class level because they get 3rd level spells as cleric level 5 so upon reaching level 6 they can choose this class to be their 6th level.
A sorcerer can take this class as their 7th class level because they get 3rd level spells at level 6 so upon reaching level 7 they can choose this class.
A fighter can take this class as their 7th class level because they get +6 BAB at Fighter level 6, which means they must have 6 fighter levels and then take this class as their 7th level.

Basically, a fighter has to have BAB 6 before choosing to take this class, meaning that they have to have 6 fighter levels and wait until their 7th character level (along with sorcerers) while clerics and wizards get to join this as their 6th level class.

Which means that after all 10 levels of this class, you have a Fighter or Sorcerer 16th level while a Wizard or Cleric is as 15th level.

Keledrath
2015-01-15, 12:26 AM
One other point on the PrC itself: It requires ranks in Knowledge (religion) but doesn't have that as a class skill.

Well, I would personally put this PrC at being at least an 8 or 9 on your scale for power.

One thing to consider whenever you make a PrC: Why would someone ever NOT take this?
Compare Wizard 20 to Wizard 10/Blade of Vengeance Lost 10
The Wizard 20 has 2 bonus feats
BoVL adds in 10 levels of 3/4 BAB and d8 HD with more skill points and an arguably better skill list. On top of that, you get 7 bonus feats, so you're 5 up. Then you pick up 3 domain spells, which, while not big, is still a plus.

Then, you get Conduit. I'm telling you right now, that is one of the strongest abilities I've ever seen. The bonus to spontaneous is great. The bonus for prepared is either solid or horrifically overpowered, depending on stacking
To explain what I mean: does it take one level off the end, or does it take off one level from each metamagic? For the second one, it is the most heinously broken capstone in 3.5. For comparison, the Arcane Thesis feat allows you to do this with a single spell, and is considered fairly core to many wizard builds. And you're applying this to EVERYTHING. And, worst of all, it would stack with Arcane Thesis, meaning that a Silent (-1) Maximized (+1) Empowered (+0) Invisible (-2) Quickened (+2) spell would use an unmodified level.

As the abilities stand, this class should be dropped to 5/10 spellcasting. Even dropping Conduit, I feel this is pretty overpowered (higher BAB, better HD, more skill points, 7 feats, and 3 spells that aren't from your list)

Oddball
2015-01-15, 12:45 AM
See this is why I posted it otherwise I really would not have realised that as is spontaneous casters get not three extra spells but 21 or nine for each of the 3 domains they can add.
Also spent 4 posts arguing/debating because a clarifying on my part was missing for the document. I apologize to all.
I have added the requirement skills to the class skills list, and raised them slightly. If I take the two knowledge skills up by any ranks than it raise the gate for classes they are cross class to.
As intended Conduit takes one level off of the total spell level to a minimum of +1 spell level.
I dropped the metamagic feats.

Baphomet
2015-01-15, 01:52 AM
I'll be honest here, this is really amazingly overpowered. I'm not even sure how it could possibly have seemed to be anything else. It has all the features of several classes at once with extremely low entry requirements and no downside whatsoever.

I think it's important to sort of outline some of how prestige classes tend to work.

Some of them have requirements that mean that your character is less powerful than most other characters at that level before you can enter the prestige class. But, as you progress in the prestige class, you get bonuses over what you'd normally have. These bonuses generally wind up making you a little more powerful than you'd usually be at some things, but you've still got the downsides at other things. For example, some prestige classes require that you take a bunch of useless feats or spend a bunch of skill points on useless things. You'll never get those feats or skill points back, but the class gives you good stuff that makes it worth it. Another example is requiring you to have class abilities from two different classes first. They'll advance some class abilities from both classes at the same time, but you'll never be as good at one or the other as someone who stuck with a single path.

On the other hand, some prestige classes have entry requirements that most characters of a certain class will generally meet anyway without much effort. When they give you stuff, it's about as good as the stuff you would have gotten anyway if you'd stayed in the first class, it's just different. The point of those ones isn't to give you a boost in power, it's to give you more options.

In both cases, you still wind up about as powerful as other characters of your level. That's the theory, anyway; obviously in practice there's good and bad. But they're generally not good or bad because their authors wanted them to be, they're good or bad because the authors over- or under-estimated the bonuses versus the detriments.

I'm explaining this because that doesn't seem to be what's happening here. This isn't some failure to weigh the good against the bad, this is all extremely good and no bad at all. That's why I feel like the problem here isn't that you didn't do a good job of weighing pros and cons, but that there was some misunderstanding about what a prestige class should be. If you say it's supposed to be for a sorcerer, but it only requires two sorcerer class skills at level 4, it shouldn't give you everything you'd get from taking levels in sorcerer, plus seven bonus feats (that's more than you'd get from taking levels in fighter, and the entire gimmick of the fighter class is the fact that it's the class that gives you lots of feats), plus twice as large hit dice, plus the ability to metamagic as a standard action, plus more skill points, plus better saves*, plus full base attack bonus, plus access to three domains (which almost doubles their number of spells known, incidentally), plus an exotic weapon proficiency, plus smite evil. No one would ever take more than 6 levels in sorcerer again, they'd enter this class as soon as possible.

*That fort save bonus is really weird. 10 levels of good saves go 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7, 10 levels of bad saves go 0 0 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3. This is somewhere in between. I don't doubt that there's an exception to this in some splatbook somewhere out there, but I've never seen it before.

Almarck
2015-01-15, 02:16 AM
+11. Yes. it's that overpowered that it breaks the rating scale

To give you an idea of how overpowered this is, I actually need to compare this class to the updated and considerably more powerful version of the class it is meant to be for.

Sorcerers are one of the classes in Pathfinder that received so much of a buff over their 3.5 version that some people don't even bother with Prestige Classes because the class's chassis is solid and gives you lots of bonus class features and choices based on what your first choice was. It becomes a choice to get a Prestige Class, one you aren't ashamed of rejecting and weigh with logic and reason. You get class features that are more than just extra spellcasting, that's worth hanging onto.

Your class despite being a prestige class is so good, that it overshadows the Pathfinder Sorcerer to a hilarious degree with how many bonus class features you get.

+10/+10 casting? That's not something you should be offering with the saves, BAB, and powerful class features you're getting... And that's for Arcane and Divine casting both according to the list.

Baphomet
2015-01-15, 02:27 AM
I feel bad basically just telling you the class is bad and not offering alternatives for how to fix it, but it's just doing so many things. It would really help to understand what it was that you were trying to accomplish. What did you want this prestige class to do? What were you picturing when you wrote it? If you can narrow it down to one idea or archetypal character, like "I was picturing Cloud Strife from FF7", we might be able to pick out some key elements of what makes that idea work and then develop that. But, if the idea was just "Like a sorcerer, but better at everything", there's really not a lot we can do.

Almarck
2015-01-15, 02:31 AM
Uh, yeah, I realize that too myself. It's not polite to just frown on something without offering proper solutions.

Look, there's a couple of abilities that I think might just need to be thrown out or reduced. Is the goal to play a Sorcerer/Cleric hybrid, but have better BAB?

Oddball
2015-01-15, 02:38 AM
Feats have been reduced from 7 which is in hindsight a bit overdone I also dropped the original idea that any class could qualify and benefit from this class which means the BAB and hit die can and will be lowered. Fighter feats are no longer on the table and skill point a level have been reduced.
I don't think I have seen the 10/10 terminology.
Baphomet your apology (which I received while typing the above response) was appreciated but not entirely necessary but still appreciated. This class was originally created to expand on the flufl for the campaign I am in specifically the followers of the Deity Loken the Betrayed. The original BAB hit die and Spell progression were to ensure that no matter what class you started in you could gain something so long as you were a follower of Loken. So It got all of the good with very little of the bad. I am working on fixing this.
the class as it stands now should benefit casters . I am thinking an Either/or on the domain/spell progression levels.

Oddball
2015-01-15, 02:45 AM
The Standing end goal is a sorceress with a touch of divine and a really big sword. The ability to use sword effectively in a level appropriate encounter is not as important.

Almarck
2015-01-15, 02:54 AM
Hm, perhaps an ability to use magic through your sword? Using it as an impliment for class features, including SLA's or SUA's specfic to the class. Otherwise, there's no point to having the sword in the first place if you don't get to use it.

I can think of maybe using it to create sword beams or Earthquake attacks for instance. What are the Divine powers related to the god in question? Let that blade be the conduit for them, and you solve two birds with a single stone.

Baphomet
2015-01-15, 03:01 AM
Feats have been reduced from 7 which is in hindsight a bit overdone I also dropped the original idea that any class could qualify and benefit from this class which means the BAB and hit die can and will be lowered. Fighter feats are no longer on the table and skill point a level have been reduced.
I don't think I have seen the 10/10 terminology.
Baphomet your apology (which I received while typing the above response) was appreciated but not entirely necessary but still appreciated. This class was originally created to expand on the flufl for the campaign I am in specifically the followers of the Deity Loken the Betrayed. The original BAB hit die and Spell progression were to ensure that no matter what class you started in you could gain something so long as you were a follower of Loken. So It got all of the good with very little of the bad. I am working on fixing this.
the class as it stands now should benefit casters . I am thinking an Either/or on the domain/spell progression levels.

The 10/10 thing refers to the fact that this class gets 10 levels of spellcaster progression for ten levels. Something you see often in classes that develop spellcaster abilities and still offer a lot of benefits is levels where spellcaster abilities don't go up. Having three or more of those "dead" levels means that a spellcaster in that prestige class will never get 9th level spells (at least, that's the usual assumption, the dangerously cheesy have ways around it), so having those before a really powerful class feature in a common balancing move for prestige classes.

So is there a particular reason why all the followers of Loken the Betrayed ought to be spellcasters and sword wielding evil-smiters at the same time? Why's he work so well with arcane magic? Most gods don't really meddle with that (or is it that most arcanists don't meddle with gods)? Who betrayed him? Why good only?

Oddball
2015-01-15, 03:32 AM
Loken the Betrayed: Lokan is a almost forgotten deity. in the ancient days he was a mighty warrior well respected by his fellows. However during what would become the Desolation wars which in myth fragmented the kingdoms of men and elves his general, Horus betrayed his master the Great King taking most of his army with him. Lokan and his company alone of the Horus's legion remained loyal to the king for which they died terribly. The Wars of Desolation ravaged the area as the the traitor generals fought the loyalists. Most of the records of the time are lost and few names are still know. Those who remember still call upon the names of the mightiest of these as they would gods. In time as is the nature of such things they became them. Now to any who know his name and have been wronged or betrayed they cry to Loken.
No one is certain when Loken ascended but when he did he brought a piece of him soldier's souls with him though. Few records of them exist but there are indications that he was close friends with the Kings Chef Magus Magnus the blue perhaps accounting for the number of magic users in his ranks few as they are.
Lokan is portrayed as massive human or elven male, clad in a masterful suit of full platemail. His Favored weapon is the Fullblade. Domains: War, Storms, Travel, Healing.
Spell progression I think I have solved. As the real problem was it with the other things the only things left are the domains which you give up that level spell advancement for two class feature that are fluff and the other hilariously over powered and both pending rewrite.
The sword is important because it the only detail the stories ever agree on. Even things like race or mannerisms depend on the story in question but the sword is always the same. At heart he is still the same person who believe the great king's vision of a better world I am probably changing that to any non evil though.
The back ground was written for an audience who understood what it was ripping off adapting and could fill in gaps accordingly. So i am not guaranteeing it will make total sense.

Oddball
2015-01-15, 03:42 AM
It is not so much about fighting evil as it is about avenging a betrayal especially not for the first path which is always the path of personal vengeance after that debts are due and in exchange for Loken's help on the first path others must be walked. This is more the wandering hero phase where you get visions leading you to people to help after they call the name of Loken, Providing support as necessary. That is what this class is.The ones who go out and break things.
Other's don't do that as much one of his highest level npc followers is an elven diviner living in stereotypical diviner's cave in a stereotypical elven forest. He is not a member of this class though he is still one of the faithful.

Auron3991
2015-01-15, 07:11 PM
It still seems a little powerful to me. While Mystic Theurge isn't great, you have its spell progression (unless I'm reading your chart wrong), arguably the best in the game, with the benefits of a wizard's bonus feats while expanding the cleric domains and tossing an extremely powerful extra ability on top of it all. It's certainly a high +1 prestige in it's current state, if not at low +2. There is literally no reason to not take this if you have even one level in both varieties of casting. I would even dip into divine/arcane casting specifically for this class.

As far as reigning it in a bit, I would change the spell progression to only applying to both once every 2 or 3 levels and have them choose which one they apply it to for the other levels. I'd also only have two bonus feats and two extra domains instead of 3, but I would include the wisdom bonus. That should put it squarely in +1.

Oddball
2015-01-15, 07:23 PM
I really don't know what to say some how missed that and now one else has commented on it. IT is supposed to be +1 of existing class not +1 arcane and Divine at the same time.

Almarck
2015-01-15, 07:31 PM
I thought I told you about it. If you recall in my first post of critique, I listed it off, but then again, I kind wrote it when I was half asleep.


+10/+10 casting? That's not something you should be offering with the saves, BAB, and powerful class features you're getting... And that's for Arcane and Divine casting both according to the list.

Yeah, probably didn't convey it right. My bad.

Oddball
2015-01-15, 07:39 PM
At the time I misunderstood the 10/10 to mean level/spell level not arcane/Divine.

Almarck
2015-01-15, 07:49 PM
Yeah, I didn;t make it exactly clear. Either way, why not just put a "increase to existing casting class" so that even say Warlocks and Binders can get it? I mean, it'll be more inclusive that way.

Oddball
2015-01-15, 08:00 PM
I don't think either exist in the campaign this was written for. I also don't know what the second is. Though they would be the on;y thing that has rules that does not exist.

Auron3991
2015-01-15, 08:34 PM
Looks like you have a solid +1 PrC to me now.

Oddball
2015-01-15, 09:00 PM
Conduit of Retribution has finally received an overhaul. I base it off of the Knights 20th level ability with slightly less not dieing and more extra killing.