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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class The Wooden Druid (3.5) (I am Groot!)



Emmerlaus
2015-01-16, 10:27 AM
With the advice of a someone else, I created this Druid variant, one more plant related. The Druid is too much OP for my GM so I created a version that put him in lower Tiers and I would love feedback:

WOODEN DRUID

NOTE THAT HE GAIN D6 HIT DICES AND FAVORED SOUL SPELL PROGRESSION.

Also, a Wooden druid druid CANNOT cast a spell with the FIRE subtype, unless it also have the Summoning subtype. (their is a few exception, like Primal Form, who dont change the type of spell if you pick Fire Elemental)

- He also add Hide And Move Silently as class skills

- He can use all spirit shaman weapon and have the same armor training and restriction then the druids.

Here's the small changes on his list of spell:

Level 0 //

Gain: Message, Stick

Level 1: //

Gain: Feather Fall, Sanctuary

Remove: Produce Flame, Animate Fire (SC)


Level 2 //

Gain: Desicatting Bubble (SC), Grease, Nerve Skitter (SC), Invisibility, Iron Silence

Remove: Flaming Sphere, Fire Traps, Flame Blade, Heartfire (SC)

Level 3 //

Gain: Know Opponent

Remove: Fire Wings

Level 4 //

Gain: Greater Invisibility

Remove: Flame Strike

Level 5 //

Gain: Break Enchantement, Duelward

Remove: Wall of Fire, Inferno (SC)

Level 6 //

Gain: Fire Spiders (SC)

Remove: Fire Seeds, Fires of Purity (SC)

Level 7 //

Remove: Firestorm

[/B]

WOODEN DRUID:


1st // Animal Companion, Wild Empathy, Nature Sense

2nd // Woodland Stride

3rd // Wooden Fortitude +1 (bonus on natural armor and on saving throw against mindaffecting, stunning and paralysing effect.)


4th // Augment Summoning +1 (increase the summoning spells you cast of one caster level. Summon nature ally 1 become Summon Nature ally 2. It cannot go above the level of Summon Nature Ally spell you can normally cast.)

5th // Trackless Step

6th // Companion Spellbond (feat from PH2)

7th // Venom Immunity. Also, your blood now flows as slowly as tree sap. The speed at which progressive damage, such as that from wounding, who affects you is halved.

8th // Wooden Fortitude +2 (at this point, you lose all body hair as well. This is optionnal and completly for flavor, as your skin become more like bark :smalltongue:)

9th // Augment Summoning +2

10th // Plant Domain (like the cleric feature)

11th // Animal Companion gain the Woodling Template : http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/woodling.shtml (BUT without the spell-like abilities. Also he no longer gain the AC bonus from the druid also, only gain the bonus AC from the template). He also share your trackless step and woodland stride feature.

12th // Your head sprout leaves and become photosynthetic. (You can
subsist on 1 hour/day of sunlight in lieu of food, though you still require the same amount of water as before. Also, you only need 2 hour of sleep each night.) (think of it as a continuous Ring Of subsistance but with a requierement of 1 hour without a hat or cap in the sunlight to hide your leaves)

13th // Wooden Fortitude +3

14th // Camouflage

15th // Timeless Body

16th // (Gain nothing at this level)

17th // Augment Summoning +3

18th // Gain the Woodling Template (and lose the Wooden Fortitude.)

19th // (Gain Nothing at this level)

20th // Renegeration (see below)

==========

At 20th level, non magical damage dealt to the wooden druid is treated as nonlethal damage. The wooden druid automatically heals nonlethal damage at a rate of 1 damage point per 4 wooden druid levels per round. Certain attack forms, typically fire, bleeding and acid, deal lethal damage to the creature, which doesnít go away. A regenerating wooden druid that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the wooden druid with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.
Attack forms that donít deal hit point damage ignore regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. A regenerating wooden druid can regrow lost portions of their bodies in 1d10 minutes and/or can reattach severed limbs or body parts, this may be done in 1d4 turns. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.
A wooden druid must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

==========

So, is it balanced or not ?

Deepbluediver
2015-01-16, 02:31 PM
In order to know if it's balanced, I need to know what it's being compared to?

It mostly seems like a spell-less druid, and while the animal-companion class feature tends to be a little OP, limiting the druid shapeshifting does significantly bring down it's versatility.

By limiting it to essentially melee combat, but giving you monster (animal) stats and an animal companion, I'd tentatively place this around the tier 3-4 boundary, but I want to think about it a little more.



Also, you refer to the class as "Shaman" at least once in the first sentence of your verbal description.

Emmerlaus
2015-01-16, 04:47 PM
In order to know if it's balanced, I need to know what it's being compared to?

It mostly seems like a spell-less druid, and while the animal-companion class feature tends to be a little OP, limiting the druid shapeshifting does significantly bring down it's versatility.

By limiting it to essentially melee combat, but giving you monster (animal) stats and an animal companion, I'd tentatively place this around the tier 3-4 boundary, but I want to think about it a little more.



Also, you refer to the class as "Shaman" at least once in the first sentence of your verbal description.


In fact, he still cast spell. Thats only the class feature that change. I wanted to make a less complicated version of the druid (so compare it to the normal druid) while having a theme of slowly changing into a woodling, tree creature.

I removed most wild shape, limited it to plants and animal companion form only. I wanted to make the druid less of a melee caster to make him more of a pure caster. In fact, it would be good for this version to summon buffed nature ally and using his animal companion as shield.

Im considering changing his d8 life points HD into d6 as well.

As for "shaman", thats how I wanted to name the class until I figured their was the Spirit Shaman class. Sorry for the confusion.

Deepbluediver
2015-01-16, 05:29 PM
Ok, I can't really answer the question that you are trying to ask because it's a pointless question. The existing classes cover the spectrum from nigh-useless to game-breakingly-overpowered, so yeah, sure, your version of the druid fits somewhere in that range. Closer to the top than the bottom I'd say. But the original classes weren't balanced against each other in the first place.

Lets approach this from another angle- what do you know about balance? Have you read the Tier list? What are you trying to compare him to? Until I get some background I can't really do better than saying "he's no worse or better than anything else that already exists".
Your question is like pointing to a random object and saying "hey, that's pretty big, huh?" A watermelon is pretty big for a fruit, but it's insignificant compared to the Sears Tower, which is pretty big for a building. Without context the question is meaningless. I can't tell if you've hit the target until you tell me what target you where aiming at.

Emmerlaus
2015-01-17, 12:04 AM
The Druid is Tiers 1 so pretty much OP...

I wanted to make a class ressembling the Druid but NOT in Tiers 1.

The Woodling template give a meaningful weakness to Fire, which is a common element (and will make the animal companion weak to it at level 11). I also remove the spelllike abilities from the woodling template for this build, to not give them spelllike abilities. Those two element alone and the limit of the Wild Shape make it to Tiers 2-3 I believe.

Yes, at level 18 he get regeneration but he is a caster more then a melee combatant. With Augment Summoning, he stay behind and cast while summons shield him (or party member). That is why I think Tiers 2 or 3 is the tiers for that build, instead of Tiers 1. He act more like a summoner then a melee combatant who can cast.

===

You need background? I dont understand what you mean. I though the difference strenght of the build where clear enough. Is my goal of making a less powerful druid (but still not too low in Tiers) have being done or not?

Deepbluediver
2015-01-17, 10:21 AM
You need background? I dont understand what you mean. I though the difference strenght of the build where clear enough. Is my goal of making a less powerful druid (but still not too low in Tiers) have being done or not?
Alright, well, if you've read the class Tier List then you should know that the major reason the higher tiers are what they are is because of spellcasting. That's why the Sorcerer, with zero class features, is still tier 2. The Druid's spell list isn't quite as egregiously broken as the Wizard's, but it's still pretty powerful.
You won't got a not-tier 1/2 class with full spellcasting until you redo the entire magic system.

If you had a druid that ONLY used spellcasting and with nothing else, no animal companion no wildshape, he might be tier 2. Provided you only stuck with the core books. Since the druid technically knows every spell on his spell-list, the more splatbooks you add the more you push him back up to tier 1.

Your druid is probably still tier 1. The animal companion is just as good at melee as many melee classes, and even if your Wildhshape isn't quite as versatile it's not hard to find one form with decent stats and you're pretty much a spellcasting tank. (or pick a bird animal companion and reign death down on your enemies from above).
The weaknesses are trivial- they might make the occasional encounter slightly more dangerous, but 80-90% of the time they won't be relevant at all, and again there are plenty of spells that should keep you from taking any damage at all.
But overall, you're druid is maybe, at most, half a (small) step backwards from the standard druid. Tier 1.5, maybe, depending on spell and companion selection.



If you want to make a less powerful druid, there are a few quick fixes. You could scrap Wildshape entirely. You could give him the Bard's spell progression. You could get rid of Animal companion and the Natural Spell feat, which makes the druid choose between spells or melee combat.
Basically, the companion, Wildshape, and spellcasting are all features that could almost support a class by themselves. Pick two, at most, and get rid of the third. If you are trying to not have the druid overwhelm anyone of tier 3 or lower, pick 1.

Emmerlaus
2015-01-17, 01:25 PM
Your last post had very helpful advices :) !!

I removed the Wild Shape completly. Thanks for that particular advice! I replaced it with abilities that show he is slowly turning into a tree instead.

I decided to give this build the bard spell progression and spell known (like you suggested), as well as D6 hit dices.

I thought I should give the Plant domain spell on the list of spell known as a bonus to let the player have at least one free wood themed spell at each spell level. Its only added on their spell known tough AND up to level 6 only.

I never knew the druid spell list was to be as fearsome as the sorcerer/wizard list, to be honest. I guess I never had a experimented druid player at my table then. And yes, I readed a bit about the Tiers but I figured the druid versatility (especially the Wild Shape) was the problematic part rather then the spells.

You can still tell me if you like the new build (or give me suggestions), I edited my first post to put the change in there. :)

Deepbluediver
2015-01-22, 12:31 PM
Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner- been preoccupied for the last few days.

I'm glad you found my advice helpful. Did you originally use the Sorcerer's spell progression and spells known? I thought that't what I saw when I first read the newest version a few days ago, but now you've gone with the bard-format instead.

Anyhow, I think this way of doing things is more balanced in terms of approaching an average power level. I certainly like the flavor of the class, too.
Ultimately though, the class needs to appeal to your group and hit the goals that you are going for. I hope that this class would still be enjoyable for you to play as well.


I never knew the druid spell list was to be as fearsome as the sorcerer/wizard list, to be honest. I guess I never had a experimented druid player at my table then. And yes, I readed a bit about the Tiers but I figured the druid versatility (especially the Wild Shape) was the problematic part rather then the spells.
The spell list isn't quite as bad, overall, especially since it's missing some of the really gamebreaking stuff like Timestop and Wish, but many of those only come into play near max-level, and before that the Druid's other strengths easily compensate for anything it's missing from it's spells.

The imbalance in D&D comes from both the power and versatility of certain classes, and the issue of something like Wildshape letting you transform into ANY animal is the same as they issue with letting you use ANY spell on your (extensive) spell list. Without rewriting major class features, I feel like this fix is fairly straightforward and effective overall.

Emmerlaus
2015-01-27, 08:14 PM
Yes, I found out that the Bard spell progression fit nicely. However, no spell known, he still can choose his spells. I thought of getting teh Sorcerer spell known and progression but realized teh Bard oen would limit it enough to be efficient without being game breaking, even if he is not a spontanous caster. (it also teh Wooden druid to have metamagic feats of he chose to do so WITHOUT increasing the spellcasting time)

(and beside, he can cast Higehr levels Summon Nature allies, its a good way to make a build about conjuring those)

Also, he do gain lots of things as he continue the class now. Also, you were right... Energy Immunity is a level 6 spell so the Animal Companion getting the Woodling Template can be strong at higher levels.

Also I think I'll make level 19 allow to use Control Weather or Heal as a level 6 spell. It fit what I can see a druid do near epic levels.

My friends told me they like the feel of this class and are willing to let me try it. I cant thank you enough for your explinations and patience. :)

Emmerlaus
2015-02-18, 02:30 PM
I noticed a flaw in the design, mostly in his spelllist... More on that in next post.

PrismCat21
2015-02-25, 07:10 PM
I really like the theme and style of the Wooden Druid Emmerlaus. :smallbiggrin:
The only thing I would say to add right now is the spell Backbiter from Complete Arcane. It's the only Wood style spell from the Wu Jen list that Druid doesn't already have. Keep it up.

Emmerlaus
2015-03-03, 07:46 PM
I really like the theme and style of the Wooden Druid Emmerlaus. :smallbiggrin:
The only thing I would say to add right now is the spell Backbiter from Complete Arcane. It's the only Wood style spell from the Wu Jen list that Druid doesn't already have. Keep it up.

Thanks for the comment !!! :D

However, Backbiter is in Spell COmpendium as a Sorcerer/Wizard spell level 1. And its not wood related at all, as it can affect any kind of weapon (if I remember correctly)

UPDATE

After some play testing and headaches figuring out his spelllist, I decided to pick the Favored Soul spell progression for simplicity (instead of the bard spell progression)

(His spelllist was not made to have 6 levels of spells. I added him a few spells since I removed most of his Fire Spells from his list AND he gain the Plant Domain at level 10)

PrismCat21
2015-03-08, 03:00 PM
However, Backbiter is in Spell COmpendium as a Sorcerer/Wizard spell level 1. And its not wood related at all, as it can affect any kind of weapon (if I remember correctly)

Quick question. If you are given a suggestion from a specific sourcebook, for a class with a similar theme that you are looking for, why would you use a different sourcebook that does not have that class in order to look up the spell?

Something else that just doesn't make any sense at all to me. If you're going to bother taking the time to look something up, (even from the wrong source), Why would you judge it based only on your memory of how it works? You looked it up for a reason. If you don't understand/remember how it works... ask.

Now. Yes, the spell was changed in the Spell Compendium. That is why when I referred the spell to you, I also provided you with the specific sourcebook it was from, as well as the class and themed spell list it was for.

To help avoid you becoming any more confused, here is the spell 'Backbiter' from Complete Arcane.
BACKBITER
Necromancy
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 1, wu jen 1
(wood)
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One weapon
Duration: 1 round/level or until
discharged
Saving Throw: Will negates; see
text
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
You cast this spell on any woodenhafted
two-handed weapon (such
as a greataxe or heavy fl ail) or any
wooden-hafted reach weapon (such as
a longspear or glaive). The next time
that weapon is used to make a melee
attack, its shaft twists around so that
the weapon strikes the wielder instead,
with the attack roll applied against the
attackerís own AC.
The wielder gets no warning or
knowledge of the spellís effect on his
weapon, and though he makes the
attack, the self-dealt damage canít be
consciously reduced (though damage
reduction applies) or changed to nonlethal
damage. Once the weapon attacks
its wielder (whether successfully or
not), the spell is discharged.
The spell can target a weapon of any
size as long as its wielder normally uses
it as a two-handed weapon or a reach
weapon. For example, a Small longspear
wielded by a halfl ing could be the
target of the spell, but not the same
Small longspear wielded by a human;
in the humanís hands, the weapon is
too small to twist around and strike its
wielder.
Magic weapons targeted by this
spell receive a Will save. An item in
a creatureís possession uses its own
Will save bonus or its wielderís bonus,
whichever is higher.
Focus: A dagger.

Notice how it says "wu jen 1 (wood)". It is indeed a wood themed spell.

Emmerlaus
2015-03-08, 05:41 PM
Quick question. If you are given a suggestion from a specific sourcebook, for a class with a similar theme that you are looking for, why would you use a different sourcebook that does not have that class in order to look up the spell?

Because I remembered the spell being in Spell Compendium even without looking (that picture LOL)


Something else that just doesn't make any sense at all to me. If you're going to bother taking the time to look something up, (even from the wrong source), Why would you judge it based only on your memory of how it works? You looked it up for a reason. If you don't understand/remember how it works... ask.

Aaaand... thats where Im gonna be bluntly honest. I looked the day before answering the post the day after. The reason I written that was to:

1) In case I misreaded or didnt see something the day before, as I didnt have the book in front of me the day after.

and 2) Simply because didnt want to hurt feelings or create that reaction you had.

The spells in Spell Compendium are the samee spells but revised. Some got nerfed (like Iron Silence) and others got a boost (like Backbiter). Yes, in Complete Arcana it was flavorful but I will use the Spell Compendium version as if you use the book, you have to accept the good and the bad that came with the revisions of the spells. Most of my GM agreed with me on that.

And the reason I checked myself and not asking you is because I knew where to found the information AND dont own a copy of Complete Arcana. I had the Spell Compendium closeby though so thats why I looked it up.


To help avoid you becoming any more confused, here is the spell 'Backbiter' from Complete Arcane.
BACKBITER
Necromancy
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 1, wu jen 1
(wood)
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One weapon
Duration: 1 round/level or until
discharged
Saving Throw: Will negates; see
text
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
You cast this spell on any woodenhafted
two-handed weapon (such
as a greataxe or heavy fl ail) or any
wooden-hafted reach weapon (such as
a longspear or glaive). The next time
that weapon is used to make a melee
attack, its shaft twists around so that
the weapon strikes the wielder instead,
with the attack roll applied against the
attackerís own AC.
The wielder gets no warning or
knowledge of the spellís effect on his
weapon, and though he makes the
attack, the self-dealt damage canít be
consciously reduced (though damage
reduction applies) or changed to nonlethal
damage. Once the weapon attacks
its wielder (whether successfully or
not), the spell is discharged.
The spell can target a weapon of any
size as long as its wielder normally uses
it as a two-handed weapon or a reach
weapon. For example, a Small longspear
wielded by a halfl ing could be the
target of the spell, but not the same
Small longspear wielded by a human;
in the humanís hands, the weapon is
too small to twist around and strike its
wielder.
Magic weapons targeted by this
spell receive a Will save. An item in
a creatureís possession uses its own
Will save bonus or its wielderís bonus,
whichever is higher.
Focus: A dagger.

Notice how it says "wu jen 1 (wood)". It is indeed a wood themed spell.

Thanks for the info anyway. I really appreciated you took the tiem to told me.