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AtomicKitKat
2007-04-02, 11:59 AM
Normally, we would consider anything with more than a couple of racial HD, and more than a +2 Level Adjustment unplayable right? I present from MM3, the Nathzarune(probably mangled the spelling) Rakshasa:

11 Outsider HD(All the skills of a Rogue, with the HD/Saves of a Monk, and the BAB of a Fighter)
Ability scores: Very positive.
Powers: Evasion, Uncanny Dodge(and the Improved versions of them), Hide in Plain Sight(!), SR 10+HD(including class), DR 15/good and piercing(as opposed to instant death by Blessed Arrows), Sneak Attack 6d6(equal to a Rogue11) Change Shape, Shadow Jump(20', so 2 jumps, but still...), Detect Thoughts

All for the low, low price of LA+5

Comparatively, a Rogue16.

Rogue has 1 more BAB, 3 better Reflex save(negated by racial ability bonuses), worse Fortitude and Willpower saves(blown away even further by ability score differences) 2d6 more Sneak Attack. Rogue has 3 special Rogue abilities. Presuming they blow one on Improved Evasion, they still have 2 other abilities(or Feats)

N. Rakshasa has Shadow Jump, Change Shape, Darkvision, Detect Thoughts.

They both have (Improved)Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion.

Granted, most DMs would never allow the Rakshasa into their game as a PC, but still, it's worth thinking about when trying to argue that Wizards tests everything before release.:smallwink:

daggaz
2007-04-02, 12:33 PM
dude, it has ELEVEN racial HD. With the LA of +5, that means it has an ECL of 16. In other words, you won't really be allowed to bring one in (balance wize) until your party hits 16th level. And when they are 20th level and breaking the game with 9th level spells, you will have four class levels.

Yay. Have fun playing that.

storybookknight
2007-04-02, 12:36 PM
For high-level play, though, it's pretty decent - especially as you can go into a bunch of fun prestige classes right away. Mindspy, for example, would be hella fun.

martyboy74
2007-04-02, 12:46 PM
How many PrCs can you not get into before 16th level? That's right. None, not counting epic.

Diggorian
2007-04-02, 12:51 PM
Atomic, when you compare it to the Rogue 16 are you factoring in the magic items such a high level character would have?

That might put it even or a little better than this Rakshasa.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-02, 12:53 PM
Atomic, when you compare it to the Rogue 16 are you factoring in the magic items such a high level character would have?

That might put it even or a little better than this Rakshasa.

Wealth by level is based of ECL not level so they'd have the same equipment.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-02, 12:56 PM
It's not entirely terrible, but you could pretty easily beat it's usefulness by using a prestige class or two as a regular race before level 16. Especially considering how horrible the poor guy's going to be doing at that level when the casters are busy breaking any semblance of balance at this point.

storybookknight
2007-04-02, 12:58 PM
On second thought.... the rogue's extra 40+5xInt skill points is likely going to have some effect on their respective effectiveness at what a rogue is good at.

On the point of casters, though, the SR 21 is pretty okay.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-02, 01:01 PM
On the point of casters, though, the SR 21 is pretty okay.

At ECL 16 it isn't any way near good enough. You need at least ECL +10 and that's assuming there are wizards who don't take Spell Penetration. A Drow at ECL 16 has SR 25.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-02, 01:56 PM
Pfft. We all know casters break the game from about the point they stop dying in one pop.

The Nath though, combines the better parts of a Rogue(at least up till an 11th level one, to get Improved Evasion, and 6d6 Sneak Attack), and a Shadowdancer(Level 4ish, to get HiPS, Darkvision, Shadow Jump 20 ft.). Also gets a couple of interesting powers(Detect Thoughts, Change Shape), which really come in handy for infiltration.

Then again, we already knew the straight Rogue was pretty rubbish beyond around Level 10(and even before that. Trap Sense for them is not even worth a Feat, let alone a class feature slot, let's face it).

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-02, 02:05 PM
That's why I highly approve of mixing rogue class levels with scout, especially using the CS feat Swift Ambusher. But now that you mention it...

Okay, let's try this. Could you draw up the stats for this guy at level 16, then at 20? Use any available legal classes/feats/whatever on the guy, but don't equip him with any magic items (mundane only, for the purposes of this exercise). At the same time, I'm going to make a non-caster rogue-type at level 16 and 20 without magic items as well. Then we can compare and see how the Nath stacks up :)

EDIT: Oh yeah, point buy at 32. Almost forgot that.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-02, 02:11 PM
The base MMI Rakasha (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rakshasa.htm)is probably better. Granted, it has a +7 LA, but only 7 racial HD (so ECL:14 before class levels) but it has the following advantages:
1) casts as a 7th level sorcerer -- which stacks with further spellcasting (or spell-progression prestige classes -- so by ECL:20, he's a 13th level sorcerer)
2) His SR is useful: 27+class level (33 at ECL:20)
3) With DR15, +9 NA, and +4 Dex and +6 Con and three natural attacks, he's much more survivable in melee than a pure caster
4) Huge Cha (+6) and racial bonuses to Bluff and Disguise, along with huge skill points, make him useful in interesting out-of-combat roles. (To say nothing of Change Self and Detect Thoughts...)

In short, a base Rakasha is not going to be breaking the game, but he's an interesting choice for someone looking to mix arcane spellcasting with either fighting or skill-monkeying.

For the former, consider a Rakasha + all 5 levels of Abjurant Champion + one level of something else...

Edit: might also consider the Mindspy prestige class from Complete Warrior -- uses Detect Thoughts to get significant combat bonuses -- but no caster progression. Might work for Nathzarune, if there's some way to turn Detect Thoughts into improved feinting (to make use of that 6d6...).

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-02, 02:12 PM
That's why I highly approve of mixing rogue class levels with scout, especially using the CS feat Swift Ambusher. But now that you mention it...

Okay, let's try this. Could you draw up the stats for this guy at level 16, then at 20? Use any available legal classes/feats/whatever on the guy, but don't equip him with any magic items (mundane only, for the purposes of this exercise). At the same time, I'm going to make a non-caster rogue-type at level 16 and 20 without magic items as well. Then we can compare and see how the Nath stacks up :)

EDIT: Oh yeah, point buy at 32. Almost forgot that.

You do of course realise that whoever manages to hit the other guy from the shadows first wins right?:smallbiggrin:

Granted, the regular Rogue can stick in 4 levels of Invisible Blade(or some other full BAB class) and achieve the Holy Grail of 4 primary attacks per round.:smalltongue:

It's about 3 am though, so I'll hold off on this till (later in the) morning. What books are we going with?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-02, 02:16 PM
I'll need Complete Scoundrel, Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, Heroes of Battle, and, naturally, SRD. I'm purposely leaving out Tome of Battle, since I could very easily make a level 16 swordsage that would just destroy it via being ultimately better than normal fighters/rogue-types, and it thus completely unbalances the test.

Rama_Lei
2007-04-02, 09:03 PM
All right let's step back here. Effective or not, who doesn't want to play a giant spell casting hyper intelligent tiger with inversed palms?

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-02, 09:43 PM
Ookay. Player's Handbook 2? Setting specific books, yes/no? Races of series? Mostly because I've got too many books to not want to use them. ;) However, if you want to work with those 4(only one in there I don't have is HoB), that's fine by me too.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-02, 09:59 PM
Let's go with all of it. That way we can see all the potential cheese at once.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-02, 10:06 PM
On second thought.... the rogue's extra 40+5xInt skill points is likely going to have some effect on their respective effectiveness at what a rogue is good at.

On the point of casters, though, the SR 21 is pretty okay.

With 11 HD of outsider, that's 8+int mod/ level, which could easily be 11 per outsider level.

Kreistor
2007-04-02, 10:29 PM
All right let's step back here. Effective or not, who doesn't want to play a giant spell casting hyper intelligent tiger with inversed palms?

The Naztharune Rakshasa is modelled on the Rogue, not Wizard like the basic Rakshasa. Intelligence isn't cranked -- Dex is.

Okay, on with the evaluation...

ECl is 16, so Level 16 Rogue. Items should balance out: equipment is based on ECL, not character level, so the starting Naztharune should have the same amount of money for equipment as a L16 Rogue.

Race and Stats
Rogue gets +4 to stats due to 16 levels, which gains +2 stat mod total. I won't be incorporating these modifications because that gets into build and that gets very complex. For the sake of simplicity, I talk about the original stats for the rogue. You should be able to see how each topic changes based on you placing those +4 stat points in the appropriate places. (Ie. putting it all in Dex won't really help the Rogue AC weakness, because of the Armour+Dex limitation.) I'm using Human Rogue because it's easier,

Rogue Attack/damage vs. Naztharune Attack/damage
Sneak Attack considered later. Base attack and damage, unmodified by feats. Rogue BAB is 12, Naztharune is 11. But Naztharune has +4 Str, for +2 attack and damage. Loses 1 iterative attack one level out of five but trades that for +2 damage on every hit. It's the weakest attack, and at L16 it'll be the third or fourth, so it will rarely hit on better than a 20 anyway. I count that advantage Naztharune.

Rogue HP 6+15D6 + 16xCon = 55.5 (+16xCon)ave vs. Naxtharune HP 11D8+11x(Con+4) = 93.5+11xCon
Difference is 16xCon vs 38+11xCon, or to match, 5xCon=38. Con = 7. Only if the Rogue has a Con of 24 does the Rogue win on HP, and that's just not reasonable. If Con is lower, Naztharune wins. Advantage, Naztharune.

Rogue AC vs Naztharune AC
Here's where one odd bit gets in the way. The Naztharune's Dex bonus is +5 before applying the dice. With a base roll of 16 (elite array), the Naztharune has a +8 Dex bonus. The only armor he can wear to get any Armour AC is Padded. Leather can't be made Mithral. So, his Armour+Dex totals 9, before magic bonuses. The rogue, at Dex 16 (+3) can get Mithral Breastplate for a +8, but improving his Dex with magic or items (Gloves of Dex +4 should be easy for a L16) he can get that to +10. But... the Naztharune gets +5 Natural AC. So, Rogue +10 vs. Naztharune +13. Naztharune also has higher Touch AC. Advantage Naztharune.

Saves
Rogue base F/R/W = 5/10/5. Naztharune 7/7/7. Bonuses to stats change the Naztharune base to 11/12/7. Advantage Naztharune.

Rogue Feats vs. Naztharune Feats
Rogue gets 7. Naztharune gets 4. Maztharune qualifies for more feats, due to stat bonuses and uses something like Combat Reflexes or Weapon Finesse better. Still, two feats is too much to overcome, IMO. Advantage Rogue.

Rogue Skills 19x(9+Int)=171+Intx19 vs. Naztharune 14x(10+Int)=140+Intx14
Naztharune has lower Rank cap (14vs.19), but in many cases, this is made up for by improved statistics (+5 on all Dex skills, +2 on Int, +2 on Cha). The Naztharune has a smaller skill list, which really hurts it. Overall, advantage Rogue.

Rogue Sneak Attack +8D6 vs. Naztharune Sneak Attack +6D6
Advantage Rogue.
Advantage Rogue.

Special Abilities
Rogue has Evasion, Imp Uncanny Dodge, Trapfinding, Trap Sense +5, and 3 Special Abilities.
Naztharune has Evasion, Imp Uncanny Dodge, Imp Evasion (a special ability), Shadow Jump, Hide in Plain Sight, Change Shape, Detect Thoughts, DR 15/good and piercing, and SR21. SR21 is only going to kick in 20% of the time, since enemies will typically have CL16 at ECl 16. Overall, Advantage Naztharune, mainly due to that huge DR

Weapon and Armour
Outsiders are proficient with all martial weapons and the type of armour they are wearing, which for the Naztharune is Light. (The sage clarified this includes Tieflings and Aasimar a few months ago.) naztharune also have Natural Claw weapons. Advantage Naztharune.

Movement
Naztharune base move is 40'. Advantage Naztharune.

Overall
Bonus Con for HP becomes more powerful with every level gained, and the Naztharune is ahead of that curve when it starts this discussion.

In the end, I think you'll find the Naztharune a little less damaging than the Rogue, but a whole lot more survivable. It's very, very hard to kill. High HP. Excellent Saves. Brutal DR. In terms of effectiveness, I think you'll find the Naztharune going into more dangerous situations than a Human Rogue, and thus will have more overall effectiveness. It won't be affraid of tumbling to that dangerous flank to get in it's lower Sneak Attack damage, and thus will on the whole get Sneak Attack off more often.

Personally, I wouldn't allow it in the campaign mechanically because of that DR. I'd carve it way back to 5/good or piercing.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-02, 10:53 PM
Fair evaluation, Kreistor.
The ability to shape change at will with a high cha bonus, the nath will also do fairly well as a 'face', despite having to cross class in those sorts of skills.

The padded armor also saves the Nath 4,000 gp on mithral, to be spent elsewhere.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-02, 11:19 PM
I'm still pondering whether to continue with the duel. 2 words: Morphic Immunity. Rogue pretty much never hurts it now.

Arlanthe
2007-04-03, 03:00 AM
Wait. Why make these kinds of characters anyway? Just because you can? Would this really be fun to play? I mean... really?

What ever happened to interesting stories, and complex plots, or even find all the parts of the thingamagig? This sounds like a character all other players in the party would loathe. I would pack up my dice if I had to play with this character, not because of how powerful it is, but because of how... dominating it is. It's a game eater.

Somehow I doubt your back story is as well planned out as the character, as well. I mean- yeah it would work, but why?

Were-Sandwich
2007-04-03, 03:18 AM
Yeah, you munchkins.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-04-03, 03:58 AM
Wait. Why make these kinds of characters anyway? Just because you can? Would this really be fun to play? I mean... really?

What ever happened to interesting stories, and complex plots, or even find all the parts of the thingamagig? This sounds like a character all other players in the party would loathe. I would pack up my dice if I had to play with this character, not because of how powerful it is, but because of how... dominating it is. It's a game eater.

Somehow I doubt your back story is as well planned out as the character, as well. I mean- yeah it would work, but why?
I dunno. Playing a Rakshasha spy/thief/assassin sounds pretty damn fun to me, mechanics aside. It would pretty much have to be an evil, possibly plane-hopping campaign, but it works at a high level.

Debating whether something is mechanically superior to something else doesn't negate the roleplaying possibilities of either. Don't make me quote Tempest Stormwind at you.

Wehrkind
2007-04-03, 04:15 AM
Wait. Why make these kinds of characters anyway? Just because you can? Would this really be fun to play? I mean... really?

What ever happened to interesting stories, and complex plots, or even find all the parts of the thingamagig? This sounds like a character all other players in the party would loathe. I would pack up my dice if I had to play with this character, not because of how powerful it is, but because of how... dominating it is. It's a game eater.

Somehow I doubt your back story is as well planned out as the character, as well. I mean- yeah it would work, but why?

If you are going to post like this, you should really read the thread. Or at least the first post. It is being examined on terms of balance with other options put out by WotC, not "ZOMG! Check mah 1337 whey to win teh D&D! LULZ!!!!!"

What you want to play is fun, but I do not see how it applies to this conversation at all, and telling people "You are playing wrong" is never in good taste.


-ahem- On topic, I can see the skill list being a bit of a albatross around one's neck, but then I am tempted to approach the race as WotC's attempt at making LA classes playable by fitting them into specific archetypes. Essentially trading a pile of levels in various prestige classes for one block of skills, basically making a monster class that is worth taking levels in.

Twili
2007-04-03, 04:32 AM
I've actually made one nath/warshaper 4 as a BBeG for my last campaign, it could have been better, but the huge bluff adn disguise checks it had. It was fun fooling around :)

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-03, 07:17 AM
My main point was that I was used to seeing sucktastic reasons for races to get LA(see signature), and then, looking at this, it looks actually better than a standard character of the archetype.

Warshaper 1 is really the main thing that breaks this though. You need like a Paladin with a short sword(Blessed Weapon, naturally) to break through the DR, since you can't use precision damage. :)

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 11:36 AM
What's warshaper do for you?

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-03, 12:10 PM
Morphic Immunity. Note that it doesn't say it only applies when you're in an alternate form. It just says "Your form shifts your internal organs away from harm". Basically, 100% fortification.

Kreistor
2007-04-03, 12:14 PM
What's warshaper do for you?

Fast Healing, generate a natural weapon (or if you allow that to stack with itself, a lot of natural weapons), and some other things. It is very overpowered in the hands of anything that can change its shape at will, if the DM doesn't restrict it.

The_Snark
2007-04-03, 05:37 PM
Morphic Immunity. Note that it doesn't say it only applies when you're in an alternate form. It just says "Your form shifts your internal organs away from harm". Basically, 100% fortification.

At the beginning of the class, it says that all of its abilities only work in alternate forms. None of the abilities give any exceptions to that, except the one that lets you shift faster.

It's still a powerful class, but doesn't come near the Master of Many Forms. Good in the hands of a druid with the Shapeshift variant or any race that can manage to qualify.

On that note, changelings should not be allowed to qualify with Minor Change Shape. Anyone that wants to get in should have to deal with LA or the severe restrictions on the Shapeshift power.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-03, 08:07 PM
At the beginning of the class, it says that all of its abilities only work in alternate forms. None of the abilities give any exceptions to that, except the one that lets you shift faster.

Bah.:smallfrown:


On that note, changelings should not be allowed to qualify with Minor Change Shape. Anyone that wants to get in should have to deal with LA or the severe restrictions on the Shapeshift power.

Hengeyokai(Oriental Adventures)? Recently updated to LA0

the_tick_rules
2007-04-03, 10:17 PM
i fought one of these once, he did not go quietly.

Kresalak
2007-04-04, 12:37 AM
The Nathzarune Rakshasa cannot compare to a 16th level Rogue. For one, they're down 5 hit dice, which means little hp, gets shafted by Words of Alignment (which like everything has at that level), skill point maximums that are 5 lower than they should be, 2d6 less SA, 40 less skill points... Furthermore, to add insult to injury, they can't get Skill Mastery ever, and they have to stick to feats they actually qualify for.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-04, 02:16 AM
The Nathzarune Rakshasa cannot compare to a 16th level Rogue.

Too late. We already did.


For one, they're down 5 hit dice, which means little hp,

Except for that pesky Constitution bonus...


gets shafted by Words of Alignment (which like everything has at that level),

Who gives a crap? Those spells are broken as all hell, and spellcasters win the game. That was already acknowledged way back on page 1. The Rogue is just as screwed.


skill point maximums that are 5 lower than they should be,

Can't be helped. The ability bonuses make up at least half of the difference.


2d6 less SA,

Down 7 situational damage, up 2-6 "always available" damage via Strength and Bite.

40 less skill points...

Except for that +4 Intelligence, which gives them back 14*2=28 skill points, so they're only down 12 points compared to a Rogue who put the same number of points into Intelligence, 26 if the Rogue is Human.


Furthermore, to add insult to injury, they can't get Skill Mastery ever,

Oh no? Exemplar, Thief Acrobat, to name a few classes that grant Skill Mastery. The Rakshasa would benefit more from the Exemplar than the vanilla Rogue even, due to his higher Intelligence(more skills to apply it to).


and they have to stick to feats they actually qualify for.

And the Rogue doesn't have to qualify for feats? The Rogue can pick either one of the Rogue special abilities(of which the Rakshasa already has Improved Evasion, and the Rogue might want maybe Crippling Strike, Slippery Mind, and possibly Defensive Roll, the latter of which can be acquired via Thief Acrobat, and Spell Resistance plus better saves compensates for the loss of Slippery Mind), or a Bonus Feat for which he qualifies.

Kreistor
2007-04-04, 02:53 AM
The Nathzarune Rakshasa cannot compare to a 16th level Rogue. For one, they're down 5 hit dice, which means little hp, gets shafted by Words of Alignment (which like everything has at that level), skill point maximums that are 5 lower than they should be, 2d6 less SA, 40 less skill points... Furthermore, to add insult to injury, they can't get Skill Mastery ever, and they have to stick to feats they actually qualify for.

You might want to check out post #19 in this thread for a more complete mathematical analysis. You've missed a lot of details, some of which have been pointed out.

benosmash
2007-09-07, 01:55 AM
Wow. This thread has validated my like for the Naztharune Rakshasa.

Not to mention the pure RP gold that the race presents.