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storybookknight
2007-04-02, 01:06 PM
Gentlemen. (and also ladies.)

When given a thread like this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39347)
, the correct response to "is this LA race balanced against other rogues" is not "Wizards are overpowered!"

Is anyone else getting seriously annoyed at how fast these memes spread?

It's like the ongoing prevalence a few months back of questions asking whether or not a certain class feature, item, etc. was "broken".

Now, we have eighty people talking about the idea of going "nova".

And never forget the Gospel of Logic Ninja, which (while a worthwhile essay on game mechanics) is probably repeated on these boards more often than the name Pun-Pun, often with just as little thought involved, and quite frequently is touted as the poster's own original idea.

Please, take the time to answer questions with some thought and discretion, and to give credit where credit is due.

TheElfLord
2007-04-02, 01:14 PM
Except for the fact that the OP in the thread you cited did not ask, is this LA balanced against other rogues. The OP stated that in this case a character with 11 racial hit dice and an LA +5 would be playable. The OP chose to compare it to a rogue, but that doesn't mean he asked if it was balanced compared to a rogue. All the posters you disagree with pointed out how even though it has cool abilities, nice saves, and SR, it still isn't worth having 11 racial hit dice and an LA of +5

The White Knight
2007-04-02, 01:27 PM
I will agree with storybookknight regarding the annoyingly frequently occurring "Wizards are teh WIN!!1" sentiment around here. I've waded through so many discussions on the topic that it hurts me to even bother anymore - and the fact that just about every discussion degenerates into such an argument has driven me to the point where I have nearly ceased reading on this branch of the boards altogether. I read the OoTS comic and check my PbP games I'm involved in, and very infrequently come to the Gaming forum.

I propose a new commandment:

"Everytime you spur a discussion regarding the comparitive overpoweredness of wizards, God dispatches an army of zombified catgirls led by physicists to hunt you down." Or something. I'm not creative in that regard, but you get the idea.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-02, 01:36 PM
Ooh. I get to be zombified!

In all seriousness, yes, the "WIZARDS R TEH PWN" schtick is getting reeeeeeeeal old.

Assassinfox
2007-04-02, 01:36 PM
Reminds me of a topic a while back where someone presented a build for an NPC swordsman, and the immediate response was something along the lines of "Epic Level Noncaster = Lose". :smallmad:

daggaz
2007-04-02, 01:40 PM
I get tired of the 'wizards always win' thread hijacking myself, but I seriously dont think this is the case on that thread.

As the first responder, I was just pointing out the blatantly obvious: That LA16 is going to be VERY weak. I used high level casters as my example, not specifically wizards, however. The point was simply, you will be able to cast second level spells max with this guy preepic, compared that to any other caster and it should be obvious enough.

Somebody else went thru the trouble (which I just skipped) of comparing them to a rogue, which by the way wasnt the actual main question of the thread. Obviously, compared to a 20th level rogue, their abilities are also subpar... often only hitting the half-way mark.

Somebody else even pointed out the fact that drow, an LA2 race, will have better innate SR at that level as well.

So my point is, if you are gonna whine about people hijacking/wrecking threads, you might as well get your facts straight. Tossing out baseless accusations will just get people miffed at you, especially when it only takes about five minutes to read thru the thread (there were 8 posts on that thread when I found this thread) and realize your accusations are comletely unfounded.

The White Knight
2007-04-02, 01:46 PM
I assumed it was a general distaste for the "wizards = win" sentiment that spawned this thread, and not that one particular offense (which was used as a [poor] example just to carry the point at the time).

The_Werebear
2007-04-02, 02:29 PM
Logic Ninja made his point so well that it immidiately ground itself into the fabric of the boards. What makes it worse, at least from the "waiting for it to settle" perspective is that he is basically correct.

I have gotten to the point where I just skip posts that say "It sucks cuz wizzards r teh win!!1!" in the threads.

Tobrian
2007-04-02, 02:35 PM
I will agree with storybookknight regarding the annoyingly frequently occurring "Wizards are teh WIN!!1" sentiment around here. I've waded through so many discussions on the topic that it hurts me to even bother anymore

Amen. :smallsigh:

For a while I was seriously considering posting a thread on the numerous disadvantages wizards have compared to other classes, and how some people seem to labour under the misapprehension that wizards have every spell in existance memorized and are able to cast them all in under 5.2 seconds.

Anyway.

Indon
2007-04-02, 02:41 PM
Amen. :smallsigh:

For a while I was seriously considering posting a thread on the numerous disadvantages wizards have compared to other classes, and how some people seem to labour under the misapprehension that wizards have every spell in existance memorized and are able to cast them all in under 5.2 seconds.

Anyway.

I'm tempted to propose forming a pool as to when this post summons the very meme many of the posters in this thread (myself included) are quite sick of.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-02, 02:43 PM
I'm tempted to propose forming a pool as to when this post summons the very meme many of the posters in this thread (myself included) are quite sick of.

Five bucks says three posts from now.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-02, 02:48 PM
WIZZERDZ AR3 T3H WIN!!!11!!

No, in all seriousness, Draz 74 and I are busily cataloguing the number of disadvantages Wizards have even in pre-arranged single combat. I'm sure the result will be out soon.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-02, 02:54 PM
Damn. I lose.

Ranis
2007-04-02, 02:55 PM
That'll be five bucks, Celestis.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 02:56 PM
Amen. :smallsigh:

For a while I was seriously considering posting a thread on the numerous disadvantages wizards have compared to other classes, and how some people seem to labour under the misapprehension that wizards have every spell in existance memorized and are able to cast them all in under 5.2 seconds.

Anyway.

Because, hey, no one's ever thought of that before, right? It's not like people who think wizards are overpowered might have considered that?

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-02, 03:02 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with it sucking that most threads degenerate into wizards=win arguments. If you want the honest reason that this happens, look to the people who argue against it. NOT the people who support that argument. Those supporting it (me and BWL are prolly the 2 biggest proponents) never start threads about it. And we rarely respond in them until after the argument has already been started by others.

The topic has been beaten to death numerous times yet it still persists. I wonder why that is?

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-02, 03:03 PM
Whoa, down BWL, down!

I've seen arguments that go exactly like that. I'm firmly in the camp of wizards being in-general better (mechanically) than their non caster counterparts, but the whole point of the OP on this thread was people bringing up the discussion again and again, and even having it bleed into threads that have nothing to do with casters.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-02, 03:05 PM
The topic has been beaten to death numerous times yet it still persists. I wonder why that is?

A reading from the Gospel according to Tiellen:

"BECAUSE THERE ARE STILL NONBELIEVERS," spake the Voice from the Heavens unto Emperor Tippy1. "ONCE ALL BELIEVE, I CAN START MY WORK UPON VERSION 4.0."2

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 03:07 PM
*shrug* It's the topic in contention. We had the "zomg broken" threads, now we don't. If people don't like the "are wizards really that powerful?" thing, just don't respond to it.
"This, too, shall pass."

Starsinger
2007-04-02, 03:12 PM
There are people who don't believe, my cousin for example, the complete wierdo that he is, is convinced that fighters followed by CoDzilla are strongest, and that wizards and sorcerers are underpowered and suck.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-02, 03:14 PM
First of all let me say that as far as thread-derailing goes, it's not just wizards. CoDzilla is mentioned just as often, and has similar results.

I think part of the reason this often happens is that someone will mention, with the best of intentions, "but of course a wizard/cleric can probably do this better." Which is sometimes unnecessary, but not always. For instance in the epic swordsman thread, if the poster didn't know that any melee-only build will suffer very very badly compared to epic spellcasters...well, he need to know that.

Similarly, sometimes a poster will want to know "the best way to do X." Often this will involve levels in a caster class even if that isn't the first obvious solution. Thus, you see many threads where people will ask for optimization using a specified class. And I agree that the "but a wizard could beat that" meme doesn't belong in those threads. But in a more general challenge? It's appropriate.

What really causes the problems is a combination of the fact that some posters are a bit overeager to re-state wizardly superiority, and the fact that there is a significant population of posters who do not agree with wizardly superiority. So when it gets mentioned, an argument starts. THAT'S what derails the thread, because both sides want the last word. In every thread.

Of course a strict "no arguing about whether a wizard could do it better" policy doesn't work, because as mentioned sometimes that is marginally relevant to the thread, and the line where the argument becomes derailment can be blurred. What would work I think is for both sides to agree to let the argument stop after they've both stated their initial case in that particular thread. For instance (with arbitrary examples)

-Build me a Slaad-killing fighter
-fighter build
-monk build
-Hey, you sould be a wizard instead
-No, because wizards aren't better in this instance
-Okay, I disagree, can we leave it that?
-Okay
-fighter build
-fighter build
-thread goes happily on its way

WampaX
2007-04-02, 03:26 PM
Its real simple.

If you see someone derailing a thread, or wandering too far afield from the topic of conversation, use the handy "report post" button http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/buttons/report.gif down there in the corner.

A mod will be by to sort it all out.

And as this thread was about just that, I'll go ahead and lock it now.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 03:27 PM
...um, Wampa? You're... you're pink.