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Grod_The_Giant
2015-01-31, 11:57 AM
The Warlock is a preeety simple class... but it's got a lot of choices for a new player to make. I think I can do a bit better in terms of "simple generic mage." This guy gets a few tricks in combat, decent damage, good mobility, and plenty of knowledge to play with.


Mystic

The Mysticís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Wis), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ◊4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special


1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
Mystic Sight, Elemental Blessing, Elemental Blast +1d6


2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
Mystic Armor


3rd
+2
+1
+1
+3
Knowledge Focus, Elemental Blast +2d6


4th
+3
+1
+1
+4
Mystic Mobility (Fire Step)


5th
+3
+1
+1
+4
Elemental Construct, Elemental Blast +3d6


6th
+4
+2
+2
+5
Knowledge Focus


7th
+5
+2
+2
+5
Elemental Blast +4d6


8th
+6/+1
+2
+2
+6
Mystic Mobility (Cloak of Winds)


9th
+6/+1
+3
+3
+6
Knowledge Focus , Elemental Blast +5d6


10th
+7/+2
+3
+3
+7
Elemental Summoning


11th
+8/+3
+3
+3
+7
Elemental Blast +6d6


12th
+9/+4
+4
+4
+8
Knowledge Focus , Mystic Mobility (Lightning Charge)


13th
+9/+4
+4
+4
+8
Elemental Blast +7d6


14th
+10/+5
+4
+4
+9
Planar Transit


15th
+11/+6/+1
+5
+5
+9
Elemental Blessing (Immunity), Knowledge Focus, Elemental Blast +8d6


16th
+12/+7/+2
+5
+5
+10
Mystic Mobility (Water Warp)


17th
+12/+7/+2
+5
+5
+10
Elemental Blast +9d6


18th
+13/+8/+3
+6
+6
+11
Knowledge Focus


19th
+14/+9/+4
+6
+6
+11
Elemental Blast +10d6


20th
+15/+10/+5
+6
+6
+12
Elemental Attunement



Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mystic are proficient with all simple weapons. They are proficient with light armor but not with shields.

Elemental Blast (Su): Beginning at first level, a Mystic can fire bolts of elemental energy, dealing 1d6 damage, plus 1d6 damage at every odd-numbered Mystic level. An elemental blast is a ray with a range of 100 feet, a ranged touch attack affecting a single target. This damage can be either acid, cold, electricity, or fire. Each different element has a different effect:


Acid: An Acid Blast reduces the targetís Damage Reduction or Hardness (whichever the target possesses) by one-half the Mysticí Intelligence modifier for 1 round.
Cold: A Cold Blast entangles the target for 1 round.
Electricity: An Electric Blast has a bonus to hit targets wearing metal armor equal to your Intelligence modifier.
Fire: A Fire Blast deals +1 damage/Mystic level.
Normally firing an Elemental Blast is a standard action. However, if you can make multiple attacks due to a high base attack bonus, you may fire one Elemental Blast for each iterative attack when making a full attack.


Mystic Sight (Su): A Mystic may detect magic auras, as the detect magic spell, and decipher magical inscriptions, as the read magic spell.

Elemental Blessing (Su): A Mystic is a master of the elements. He gains resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity and Fire equal to his Mystic level plus his Intelligence modifier.

At 14th level, he becomes immune to the aforementioned damage types.

Mystic Armor (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a Mystic gains a deflection bonus to armor class equal to his Intelligence modifier. This is a Force effect, applying against incorporeal creatures as well as corporeal ones.

Knowledge Focus (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, and at each additional third level, a Mystic gains a +3 bonus to one Knowledge skill. These bonuses stack with each other, and count as the Skill Focus feat for the purposes of prerequisites.

Mystic Mobility (Su): A Mystic may focus his magical power to boost his own mobility.


Fire Step: Beginning at 4th level, a Mystic gains an enhancement bonus to base land speed equal to ten feet per point of his Intelligence modifier. On any turn where he moves at least ten feet, targets striking him in melee take one point of fire damage per point of his Intelligence modifier.
Cloak of Winds: Beginning at 8th level, a Mystic gains a fly speed equal to ten feet per point of Intelligence modifier, with good maneuverability. While aloft, he gains a 10% miss chance against ranged weapons.
Lightning Charge: Beginning at 12th level, a Mystic may transform into a bolt of lightning and flash across the battlefield. As a standard action, he may become incorporeal and move up to ten feet per point of Intelligence modifier before becoming corporeal again. Any target he moves through takes 1d6 electricity damage per Mystic level.
Water Warp: Beginning at 16th level, as a standard action Mystic may convert any body of water into a portal. This functions as the spell teleportation circle, with the following exceptions. The portal is two-way, with both ends being anchored in bodies of water. The size of the portal is equal to the smaller of the two bodies of water, or a circle with a radius of one foot per point of the Mysticí Intelligence modifier, whichever is smaller. Finally, the spell cannot teleport targets more than one hundred miles per Mystic level.


Elemental Constructs (Su): Beginning at 5th level, a Mystic can create solid objects out of energy. These shapes can take the form of any simple geometric shape or common item. They can be hollow or solid, with dimensions of up to 10 cubic feet per Mystic level, with health equal to the Mystic's level and hardness equal to his Intelligence modifier.

Constructs cannot be moved once placed, and last for as long as the Mystic concentrates on them. If he wishes to enclose a creature in a construct, such as a bubble or a set of chains, the target can avoid the effects with a successful Reflex Save, with a DC equal to 10+1/2 Mystic level+Intelligence modifier. The Mystic must have line of sight to create a construct, and it must be within 100 feet. This ability counts as a conjuration (creation) spell.

Constructs may be made of stone, ice, wind, or fire, with varying effects:


Fire: A fire construct deals 1 point of fire damage per Mystic level per round to anyone within 10 feet. Targets attempting to pass through the construct take 1d6 fire damage per Mystic level.
Ice: An ice construct has hardness equal to your Intelligence modifier, and hit points equal to your Intelligence modifier times your Mystic level. Anyone standing on or adjacent to the wall is denied their Dexterity bonus to armor class as they try to stand on the ice.
Stone: A stone construct has hardness equal to your Intelligence modifier, and hit points equal to your Intelligence modifier times your Mystic level. It must touch natural earth or stone, but unlike other constructs, it is permanent once created.
Wind: A wind construct is a curtain of wind, similar to a wind wall spell. Creatures attempting to pass through must make a Strength check (DC 10 + 1/2 Mystic level + Intelligence modifier), with a +4 bonus for every size category they are larger than the Mystic and a -4 penalty for every size category smaller. Ranged weapons and gasses cannot pass through the construct either.


Elemental Summoning (Su): Beginning at 10th level, a Mystic may summon an Air, Earth, Fire, or Water elemental as a standard action. Summoned elementals remain until slain or dismissed He may have any number of elementals, as long as their total challenge ratings do not exceed his Mystic level plus his Intelligence modifier.

Planar Transit (Su): Beginning at 15th level, a Mystic may use greater plane shift (SpC) as a supernatural ability, useable at will. However, unlike the spell, this ability can only access the Material Plane and the four Elemental Planes. When transporting to an Elemental Plane, the Mystic may take the targets directly to a desired location if he has visited it before.

Elemental Attunement: At 20th level, a Mysticís type changes to Elemental, although he retains his soul, and hence may still be resurrected. He gains a +4 perfection bonus to all ability scores, and DR 10/ó. In addition, he gains the Whirlwind, Earth Glide, Burn, and Vortex of an elemental.

AmberVael
2015-01-31, 01:51 PM
I'm not impressed. Until level five the mystic can only deal subpar damage (like the warlock) and spam single target entangle (which is okay, but its only one thing worth doing). At level five they spam wall of stone instead, so long as the terrain supports them doing it (the other constructs aren't worth it since you have to spend all your actions maintaining them). At level ten they finally start getting some amount of options, but its still a pitifully small amount.

I would rather play a warlock or dragonfire adept. The mystic needs more to be worthwhile, and honestly to even be tier 3. Mostly you need to load a bit more in the first levels, but the later levels could use some support too.

You've made some effort to give each ability substantial weight, but I think you've still fallen short, and some of the features are just so passive or small that they don't make much difference in your actions. You should think about folding things like arcane sight or identify into mystic sight, or perhaps giving mystic armor and knowledge focus more mechanics. (What about Lore for Knowledge? Some kind of counter style mechanism on mystic armor?) Perhaps Fire Step could leave behind a trail of flames or Cloak of Winds could be used as a short range knockback.

I would also strongly encourage giving elemental construct more duration. As it is, I think only the Stone version is worth using. (And why would I even want to use the Wind one? Stone and ice are solid. They block arrows just as nicely. Maybe give it some gust of wind style uses so it is at least useful out of combat or something?)

Almarck
2015-01-31, 02:47 PM
I share the same opinion as Amber. The class doesn't have enough goodies to make it T3. I get that the point was to make the class flexibile while still maintaining extreme simplicity, but as it is, it's too simple.

Also, on a thematic level, I think elemental connection to the mystic doesn't work well in it's favor. It's not generic enough and there's too much focus on the "manipulate element" in a raw way to do X. It needs some divination powers, maybe some buffing, and overall better defenses against physical damage. Total immunity to all 4 elements is great though, but I don't imagine they're the primary things to fight against.
Deflection equal to your intelligence is great too, but means that you can't have the option to buy defense rings to boost your AC further. Maybe insight bonus instead?

Just to Browse
2015-02-01, 12:09 AM
I agree that you need to consider rebalancing the sub-abilities. Acid and Electricity blasts are pretty weak (also electricity doesn't work against iron golems), fire is OK, and cold is great. Fire Step is strange, considering you can double/triple your move speed permanently with a single level.

I'd suggest a total rehaul if you want to bring this up to T3. Put a lot more elemental-y flavor in there, and make sure your abilities are better than [Reserve] feats because this is tier 4-5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276334-A-Truly-Balanced-Mage-Class-%283-5%29).

Seerow
2015-02-02, 11:06 AM
I personally find it kind of funny that this class starts out at level one with roughly double the options of the other "Simple T3 Project" classes at level 20 (seriously they generally get around 2 tricks over 20 levels), and the first few complaints are "not enough options". Really highlights the Martial/Caster divide.


My issues:
1) Electric Blast is lame. Your attack is a touch attack. If your enemy is wearing metal armor, chances are their touch AC is low enough you're not worried about hitting them anyway, and getting int to hit is a waste. If they aren't wearing metal armor, it does nothing. I was honestly expecting something like chain lightning, jumping to a second target, not a lame situational bonus to hit.

2) Can you two weapon fight using elemental blast? Or do you specifically avoid calling it an attack to avoid being able to do that? Personally I think being able to TWF using a different element with each hand would be pretty cool, but maybe that's just me.

3) Knowledge Focus is just lame. The fact that there are a bunch of levels where you get nothing but Knowledge Focus makes me sad. A +3 to a knowledge check is just not something a player is typically going to care much about.

4) Lightning Charge doesn't have a save for half damage. Intended? If so that quickly replaces elemental blast as the go-to damage dealer, with twice the damage output per target and no miss chance it very quickly outpaces other options.

5) The 10ft of movement per int modifier (for all the mobility abilities) seems like it could potentially get out of hand, making the Mystic one of the most mobile classes in the game. Does a ranged caster-type really need that kind of mobility?

6) Why does Wind Construct depend on the size of the caster? Why is it harder for an enemy to walk through Yoda's windwall than through Luke's?

7) Elemental Construct in general is ridiculously open ended. Nevermind that you are summoning a Wall of Fire (4th level spell) and Stone (5th level) at will at level 5, "common item" apparently includes things as complex as "chains", which means basically anything you can imagine that isn't a machine of some sort you can create. At will out of nothing. That's a pretty big deal.

8) Elemental Summoning literally lets you summon a CR = Level+Int Mod encounter at will. What? Even if you go generously and assume it means add the CRs up additively rather than you normally would for CRs, a high level Mystic easily has 3 elder elementals on call at all times. If one dies, he just summons up a new one to replace it. This is ridiculous.




Overall? My assessment is the people who weren't impressed with the class didn't look at it too hard. It is really overpowered, and has way more options than the other "simple" classes in the same line from Grod. As for taking a Warlock over it? I find that really hard to see. What kind of at will summons does the Warlock have? Can it compete with having multiple elder elementals out at all times? Do its mobility options beat out 100ft+ fly speed, 130ft+ land speed, at will teleport + damage, at will Teleportation Circle and Greater Plane Shift? Does its blasting even with blast shapes and stuff really beat out being able to full attack with elemental blast? Does it get access to at will major creation, wall of ____, and immobilize? At level 5?

Grod_The_Giant
2015-02-02, 11:26 AM
Yeah, this seems to be kind of a hot mess. I think I'm going to have to scrap it and go back to the drawing board. I just want to address one point:


3) Knowledge Focus is just lame. The fact that there are a bunch of levels where you get nothing but Knowledge Focus makes me sad. A +3 to a knowledge check is just not something a player is typically going to care much about.
In the process of attempting these simple classes, I've come across an interesting phenomenon with dead levels: there seems to be a trade off between "filling dead levels" and "keeping things simple." Take this guy, for instance. Good practice would have me fill all those levels where you just get Knowledge Focus or +1d6 Elemental Blast with actually interesting new class features. But if I do that, suddenly the player has more than half a dozen new abilities to deal with. In fact, "filling dead levels" is probably one of the biggest contributors to my classes being overcomplicated. So... I don't know. Knowledge Focus is pretty lame, but it's better than nothing?

Just to Browse
2015-02-02, 03:59 PM
Seerow, I think you're putting too much weight on a lot of these options. For example, the "double" options this class gets are similar in magnitude to what any melee dude would get for melee weapons, so if you're counting those as viable then the Mystic definitely doesn't have enough options.

This class has a few strong things:
RTA for weak damage and no-save entangle. Good.
+30 to +60' move speed at level 4. Good.
Fly speed at level 8, around 60' for the levels you care about. People buy flight at this level too. Good.
A weak damaging ability (but no save) that requires positioning at level 12. Good.
In the same ability, incorporeality for the duration of a standard action at level 12. Holy crap what.
Teleportation circle at level 16, but with a requirement that could make it seriously difficult to use. Meh.
One wind wall or ice wall for crowd control at level 5. Good.
At-will walls of stone. Holy crap what.
Permanent endless elemental cohorts. Holy crap what.

He gets no social (intimidate, diplomacy, charm, etc), no infiltration (hide, legedermain of any kind, bluff), he has great kiting and some BFC that makes it impossible for him to fight/see, and a few abusable powers that will make your DM throw a book at you. Exploiting those three does not a good class make, for the same reason the warlock is not T2 just because baleful utterance and black tentacles exist.

Almarck
2015-02-02, 04:14 PM
Come to think of it, maybe some curse breaking and other Debuff purging should also be here. Not neccesarily healing magic, but a means to rid a subject, espcially the caster of especially bad elements.

AmberVael
2015-02-02, 04:52 PM
In the process of attempting these simple classes, I've come across an interesting phenomenon with dead levels: there seems to be a trade off between "filling dead levels" and "keeping things simple." Take this guy, for instance. Good practice would have me fill all those levels where you just get Knowledge Focus or +1d6 Elemental Blast with actually interesting new class features. But if I do that, suddenly the player has more than half a dozen new abilities to deal with. In fact, "filling dead levels" is probably one of the biggest contributors to my classes being overcomplicated. So... I don't know. Knowledge Focus is pretty lame, but it's better than nothing?

For the record, I think the objections to "dead levels" are something of a plague, at least with the way people seem to mean it. I've seen way too many classes get bogged down by the idea that they need to have something super special every single level and thus end up an over complicated mess.

If you want to marry options with simplicity, you really have to rely on the structure of an underlying subsystem. Remembering that you get a new spell or invocation or maneuver is easy, and since all those abilities are structured in the same way its easier to keep track of how they work and what you can accomplish. Trying to replicate that same variety without a subsystem, just relying on the direct features of a class, is a very tall order. In fact, I can't name a single tier 3 class that doesn't rely on some kind of subsystem, at least to some extent. Even factotum gets a good bit of use from its weird spellcasting, and most of them use far more than that.

Grod_The_Giant
2015-02-02, 05:11 PM
If you want to marry options with simplicity, you really have to rely on the structure of an underlying subsystem. Remembering that you get a new spell or invocation or maneuver is easy, and since all those abilities are structured in the same way its easier to keep track of how they work and what you can accomplish. Trying to replicate that same variety without a subsystem, just relying on the direct features of a class, is a very tall order. In fact, I can't name a single tier 3 class that doesn't rely on some kind of subsystem, at least to some extent. Even factotum gets a good bit of use from its weird spellcasting, and most of them use far more than that.
I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328113-Barbarian-now-with-150-more-beef-%283-5-PEACH%29) usually (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276280-GitP-Fighter-Fix-18343-3-Ziegander-Grod-Tag-Team-Action!) do (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392463-The-Bard-v2-%28Spell-less-and-Fixed-List-Caster-Project-Versions%29) that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240943-The-Savage-one-part-barbarian-one-part-druid-one-part-Wolverine-3-5-PEACH-WIP), but... I'm trying not to for my simple rogue/warrior/mage classes. I want to have at least a few classes that are effective without needing the player to understand more than a few basic mechanics. My Marshal, for example, gets an aura and some boosts to standard combat mechanics. The Knave gets his sneak attack, intimidation checks, a bit of mobility and some skillmonkeying. The Mystic... well, there we start running into problems, both because we're so used to magic users doing tons of stuff and because magic tends to be pretty divorced from the game's base rules.

What if we had..

An eldrich blast type deal, with a couple blast shape modifiers as you level up (ray, close cone, ranged burst, prolonged chain?) Also perhaps give it the option of being damage or a debuff?
A magic sight ability, scaling up to include basic detect magic, identify, short-ranged sight displacement and long-range scrying
Some sort of conjuration-y ability, perhaps scaling up from illusions at low levels to actual constructs at higher levels (silent image -> major image -> solid object -> major creation?)
A mobility ability, scaling up like the one here does (land speed/fly speed/tactical teleport/strategic teleport)
A magic companion of some sort-- undead, outsider, or construct, chosen at the time? (Each with different immunities and main attack ability, but otherwise the same base progression)

That's a fairly short list, but should cover most of the magic-y bases?