Need help drowning players!

[just some dude]

My players are going to investigate a cave network. The caves start in a cliff by the sea, the macguffin is hidden in the caves. The caves are very extensive, there is a witch's coven in the caves they will need to deal with. The main problem I want them to face is that they need to defeat the witches (not necessarily through combat, I'm open to the players making an inventive non-combat solution) retrieve the macguffin, and get out before the tide rises, flooding the caves. The caves are rather extensive so they won't be facing witches all through out the cave, most of the challenge will be navigating the caves and keeping from getting lost. So my question is:

How should I deal with the players exploring the caves? It would be pretty boring to just tell them "make X roll, you got lost". And the caves are so large that most of it has no traps or monsters to fight so mapping out and having them go room by room would be really boring. I want them to be able to make important decisions about how they navigate the caves. Right now I'm thinking of some kind of measurement system that will track how close they are to finding the macguffin and how close the tide is to flooding the caves. The players can then invent methods to navigate the caves like "I follow the right side of the caves", that would keep them from getting lost, and maybe add one unit of "finding the macguffin measurement to the find the macguffin track but it would add two units of tide is coming to the tide track. The players could come up with other ways of exploring, that would have different effects on the measurement tracks. What do you guys of think of that system? How would you design this scenario for your players?

Also When the tide comes in and floods the cave I don't want to kill them outright. I haven't thought up a way to deal with how the players might have a chance to not drown, so any advice on how to deal with that portion of the adventure is welcome.

And finally, should I tell the players that the tide is going to be an issue when they enter the cave or should I let them figure it out on their own? On the one hand they might think it was rather unfair if their just going around the caves when out of nowhere a giant wall of water starts drowning them. On the other hand if the players figure it out without my help they will be really proud of themselves and I won't have to hold their hands, thereby cheapening the authenticity and importance of their player agency.

[(Un)Inspired]

I think your title should probably read:

Need help drowning characters

[TheCountAlucard]

Did you likewise come in here expecting something entirely different? :smalltongue:

[(Un)Inspired]

Yup, pretty much.

[Kid Jake]

Did you likewise come in here expecting something entirely different? :smalltongue:

I clicked on it just to remind him that this could be introduced as Exhibit A.

[LibraryOgre]

So, I've suggested this before, but I really like the idea.

I was running through a fourthcore game that my friend Hzurr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?12611-Hzurr) (who hasn't been around in a while) was in charge of... The Fane of the Heresiarch (http://dmg42.blogspot.com/2012/07/fane-of-heresiarch.html) (the DL link there doesn't work, but it will let you find stuff easier if you know the name).

In one part, you're running through a maze. Rather than have you map out the maze, they lay out an 8*8 grid of cards. On your turn (and a turn takes a certain amount of time), you flip two cards. If you get a match, you get the result, and the cards are removed. If you get the Minotaur, you get the Minotaur (you don't want the Minotaur). Every few turns, the GM picks one row or column and shuffles it, keeping your carefully planned exploration from being TOO easy.

So, in your situation, get a pack of 3*5 cards, and put some results on them... I'd say about 16 different kinds of results. Lay them out in a grid, and let the players pick them. Every turn takes a turn (10 minutes) or an hour, abstracting the exploration process a bit.

If your players have a lot of relevant skills (as determined by you), let them make checks to get hints... and have the checks get more difficult as you go along. So, you might say that the first check using any given skill has a DC of 15, and lets them turn over one extra card during their turn. So, maybe they say "Dungeoneering should help here because it means I know how to navigate caves", they make their DC 15 check, and get to turn over a bonus card that turn. Next time they try to use Dungeoneering, though, the DC is 20.... so spamming a single skill is risky, but using multiple skills (from several players) can be useful. You might also let them situationally determine what skills are useful... if they stumble onto a chapel or shrine, someone might claim that Religion is a good skill at this time... and you can let them.

It's flexible, and it encourages them using their skills to their advantage, but is still relatively structured and runs the risk of them getting stuck in the caves until low tide.

[Beta Centauri]

Multiple, simultaneous skill challenges. Hear me out.

The first thing you need to do for every skill challenge (and really every encounter, planned or not, is figure out what success and failure look like for your various issues. You have:

Defeat the witches,
Retrieve the macguffin
Get out.

Those are the successes. The failures might be:

Suffer a curse from the witches.
Lose the macguffin or pay a high price to retain it.
Get out of the caves by being blasted out a blowhole on a distant cliff.

Or whatever. The failure with the witches might depend on their approach, but "curse" is a good all purpose approach.

Three skill challenges is a lot at once, so I'd go with two. For example: Securing the Item, and Figuring Out the Caves.

Securing the Item: (4 Successes before 3 Failures)
Success: The party finds, acquires and keeps control of the item. Also +2 to all skill checks for Figuring Out the Caves, but add an additional required success (even if it has been completed).
Failure: The party finds and acquires the item, but loses it OR loses another important item. In addition, the party takes a -2 to all skill checks for Figuring Out the Caves and adds one failure. If it has already been completed and this would be the third failure, the party fails Figuring out the Caves.
Actions:
Traces of Passage: Tell used routes from unused (Perception) and take what seem to be the most likely passages (Dungeoneering).
Where Would I Be?: Take a tunnel based on what you know of the item (History, Arcana, Religion) and those who placed it here (History, Nature, Insight.)
Hold On!: Get to where you need to go (Athletics), and keep hold of the item, or it's container (Endurance).

Figuring Out the Caves: (6 Successes before 3 Failures)
Success: The party understands the cave layout and can navigate it quickly. Subtract one required success for Securing the Item.
Failure: The party is too turned around to escape before the tide comes in. They take a -4 penalty to all Hold On! checks and are ejected from the caves in an unknown and dangerous area, with half their remaining HP gone.
Actions:
It Only Grows on the North Side: You apply your knowledge of cave ecosystems (Dungeoneering), to keep you oriented.
The Echoes Can Play Tricks: Natural acoustical phenomena (Perception, Dungeoneering) and deliberate tricks by the denizens of the cave (Arcana, Insight) can mislead you.
Don't Look Down: Traversing the slippery cave requires strength (Athletics), agility (Acrobatics), and stamina (Endurance).

The trick to a skill challenge is that it's just the same as any other kind of skill-based challenge and requires narration and description to keep it interesting. The actions listed are just suggestions; ask the players what they do (NOT what skill they use, but what they DO) and call for rolls when you think what they're trying could make the challenge both less complicated and more complicated, depending on success or failure.

Make sure that they take actions. Don't grant successes (or failures) for characters who just look around. Only after they decide on a route to take does their roll tell them if it was the right one, for example.

Go on the offensive. If they're not sure what to do next, introduce a disorienting sound, or tell them they see some signs of travel or habitation. This should prompt them to take action along one or the other of the challenges, but it's okay if it doesn't. Just keep describing until they feel prompted.

Try to keep both challenges in front of them. Make it clear that finding the item doesn't mean they've figured out the caves and vice versa, but that one can help (or complicate) the other.

Combat or interaction with the witches can happen even when these are going on. Potentially, they might gain a success or failure in one or both challenges depending on the outcome of those encounters.

I hope that makes sense. I love skill challenges, so I'm happy to help you.

[Lord Torath]

They should definitely know that the tides will be a factor. Give them clues from townsfolk, or just by pointing out the high-tide line to them as they enter the caves. Also remember that tides in most areas only vary by about 3-4 feet. In some regions on Earth it's much higher, but I confess I have no real knowledge of why that happens. And if you have "dry" rooms at low tide, that would tend to imply that they only gain the 3-4 feet more water at high tide, as they have to drain completely in the time between high and low tide. If they're below sea-level at low tide, they won't drain. So you won't have a room that goes from empty at low tide to 12 feet of water at high tide if the tide only raises 4 feet at the beach. It could go from 3 feet to 7 feet, however.

Do the witches evacuate for each tide? If not, there have to be some rooms that stay "dry" regardless of the tide level. So if they need to, the party can wait out the tide.

[Cazero]

Also When the tide comes in and floods the cave I don't want to kill them outright. I haven't thought up a way to deal with how the players might have a chance to not drown, so any advice on how to deal with that portion of the adventure is welcome.

That part is relatively easy.

First, you said there are witches in that cave. How are they doing it? Your players could simply do the same.

Second, you apparently have a complex cave network. Flooding such a complex entirely is very unlikely. Air pockets should form in most rooms, wich solves the breathing part of the problem. Reducing exhaustion from continuous swimming is solved with stalagmites and rocks big enough to reach the air pockets while holding on them.

Third, you could have a few rooms in the complex that simply don't get flooded because the air pockets they form prevent water from rising above knee level.

[Sith_Happens]

What game is this for? Quite a few systems already have rules or guidelines for handling this sort of thing. D&D 4th Edition has skill challenges, for example, while in Fate Core it would probably be a contest versus passive opposition.

[LooseCannoneer]

Tell each player to show up at a different time, then hold them under water until they die.

Don't overcomplicate things. It should be intuitive, and be quicker than combat. Take a timer. Set up a timer for how long they have to get out, and if they are unable to get out in that time, they die.

[Beta Centauri]

Your instincts are right not to simply have them die. Death is boring. But mere survival is boring too. If all they have to do is get to a certain room during the tide, and wait it out, they haven't really incurred any consequences for failing to get out intime.

[LibraryOgre]

Your instincts are right not to simply have them die. Death is boring. But mere survival is boring too. If all they have to do is get to a certain room during the tide, and wait it out, they haven't really incurred any consequences for failing to get out intime.

Heh... get them to a nice, safe, room before tide runs its highest... then deal with them slowly breathing all their air. Bet they reconsider the utility of that bear companion, then. :smallbiggrin:

[Kid Jake]

Heh... get them to a nice, safe, room before tide runs its highest... then deal with them slowly breathing all their air. Bet they reconsider the utility of that bear companion, then. :smallbiggrin:

That's fantastic. "You discover that there's enough air for three of you to survive the night. And....go!"

[ClockShock]

Play Forbidden Island (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/65244/forbidden-island) for a session.

[LibraryOgre]

That's fantastic. "You discover that there's enough air for three of you to survive the night. And....go!"

Not to mention food... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGNdvKvbxYQ)

[Kid Jake]

Not to mention food... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGNdvKvbxYQ)

Times are desperate. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krHu4E65khA)

[D+1]

How should I deal with the players exploring the caves?it might be helpful to know what set of rules you're using. As suggested it might be expected that you make this a skill challenge for example.

It would be pretty boring to just tell them "make X roll, you got lost". And the caves are so large that most of it has no traps or monsters to fight so mapping out and having them go room by room would be really boring.On the other hand, the PC's themselves would be bored relentlessly exploring a cave system without finding anything of interest or having anything happen.

I want them to be able to make important decisions about how they navigate the caves. Right now I'm thinking of some kind of measurement system that will track how close they are to finding the macguffin and how close the tide is to flooding the caves. The players can then invent methods to navigate the caves like "I follow the right side of the caves", that would keep them from getting lost, and maybe add one unit of "finding the macguffin measurement to the find the macguffin track but it would add two units of tide is coming to the tide track. The players could come up with other ways of exploring, that would have different effects on the measurement tracks. What do you guys of think of that system? How would you design this scenario for your players?
Just try it and see if it works.

should I tell the players that the tide is going to be an issue when they enter the cave or should I let them figure it out on their own?
Well if players don't know that they're going to be in danger or that they have a time limit you can't be surprised if they waste time or do other things that will only result in their inescapable death. That will then be YOUR fault, not theirs. So, yes, OF COURSE they need to know there's some danger and a time limit. Simple to do too: "You can tell by the seaweed and barnacles that this cave is entirely underwater at high tide. Looks like you have XamountOFtime to get in and still safely get out."


On the one hand they might think it was rather unfair if their just going around the caves when out of nowhere a giant wall of water starts drowning them. On the other hand if the players figure it out without my help they will be really proud of themselves and I won't have to hold their hands, thereby cheapening the authenticity and importance of their player agency.
Again, if you give them no clues, no warnings, you cannot blame them for failing to have ESP, infallible logic, or perfect intuition. In fact, you're only asking for a TPK if you don't plan for that very possibility. If you don't want to kill them then you MUST plan for the possibility that they DON'T put all the pieces together. Even more so if the first thing they need to realize is that they have to ASK for puzzle pieces before they can even be aware that they have a puzzle to solve.

[dps]

I think your title should probably read:

Need help drowning characters

Actually, "Need help to avoid drowning characters" would be better.

The actual thread title sounds like he wants us to be accomplices to murder. Your suggestion sounds like he's asking for advice on how to do a TPK. :smallbiggrin:

[(Un)Inspired]

Actually, "Need help to avoid drowning characters" would be better.

The actual thread title sounds like he wants us to be accomplices to murder. Your suggestion sounds like he's asking for advice on how to do a TPK. :smallbiggrin:

Lol. Yeah, you're right