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View Full Version : Pathfinder [Base Class]The Mutant (I Wanna be an Eidolon!)



Keledrath
2015-02-07, 10:59 AM
So, I've frequently found myself wanting to play as a Summoner's Eidolon, but the closest I've ever been able to get is the Synthesist, which has 2 problems
1. A lot of people think it's horribly overpowered, despite being weaker than a normal Summoner
2. It kind of gimps you because you still have your Summoner. So the eidolon can be banished, or killed separately, and your party expects you to cast.

So I felt like making a class for those of us who want to play as an Eidolon.

Okay, I hate working with the tables on this site. So it's in a Google doc now.

The Mutant (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qz6_4EOvZ7-WeIKiKT4d8L2z1AL-pg_3GHnmW3A6yT8/edit). Comments are enabled on the doc.

Keledrath
2015-02-07, 01:40 PM
Saving a post for if I need on in the future, and for explaining design goals.

Design Goals:
I wanted to let people play as an eidolon, since evolutions are fun. As I explained above, though, this is hard when the enemy can just target your squishy friend the summoner. Or making a guy who was mutated by magic, and now hates casters. But you need a caster following you around.

So, I took the eidolon's base model for saves (default I went with Good Fort and Reflex), BAB (full) and HD (d10). I also took the evolution points, added one because you don't get a default natural weapon (claws or bite). I also baked in the increases from taking Extra Evolution, so that they can spend their feats on things that are actually useful.

Then, I needed class features. Mutant Surge is a cross between Rage and Evolution Surge, allowing some on the fly evolution.

Metamorphosis, meanwhile, was designed to be for utility. Perhaps you don't (for flavor reasons) want to have a fly speed all the time. Suddenly, the party needs someone who can fly. You can suddenly sprout a pair of wings and fly the party across the pit. This lets you have some of the utility of casting without being inherently magical.

Mutations are a customization filler item, similar to Magus Arcanas, Alchemist Discoveries, Stalker Arts, etc. I'm looking for more of them, but the ones that I have already in should be a good guideline.

calam
2015-02-07, 05:05 PM
Cool, one of my players wanted to play exactly this class so I'm going to check this out.

Keledrath
2015-02-07, 05:25 PM
Cool, one of my players wanted to play exactly this class so I'm going to check this out.

I figured I wasn't the only one. That's why I made it. Let me know how it goes, and let me know if, during play, anything comes up for Mutation ideas.

IZ42
2015-02-07, 11:51 PM
You could do a Powerful Build sort of mutation, where you count as Large(or one size larger of you have the size increasing evolution) when it would be beneficial to you, and then have a converse Agile Build, where you count as one size smaller when it benefits you, and have them be exclusive towards each other.

I might have somee ideas kicking around.

How about this: Evasion requires Agile Build as a prerequisite mutation, and if you have powerful build, you can gain the ability to roll Fortitude and STR based skill checks twice, and take the better of the two results.

Keledrath
2015-02-08, 01:12 AM
I like that, and took it. However, I went for giving them the option of acquiring Mettle (Fort only) if they have Powerful Build.

I also added on Mutational Suppression, for all your town-going needs.

Grod_The_Giant
2015-02-08, 02:24 AM
I swear I've seen this recently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396248-The-Endocist-Synthesist-Summoner-as-a-Base-Class-%283-5-PEACH%29)...

But as for your take on the idea...

Mutant Surge might not be functioning as you want it-- right now it's useable at will, where I think you mean "x total rounds, divided up how you want."
Metamorphosis, while nice for versatility, seems like the kind of thing that could really slow things down in the middle of a game.
Mutations on top of Evolutions just seem redundant-- all of those look like either existing or potential Evolutions. Two sets of abilities granting essentially the same powers strikes me as sloppy game design. I'd strike the idea altogether, honestly-- the continual addition of new Evolutions is plenty to keep things interesting as you level up.

Elricaltovilla
2015-02-08, 10:16 AM
I would consider making Metamorphosis last 10 min per level. Makes it similar to the Alchemist's mutagen ability, which I feel is a good baseline to start with, especially since it can't really be used effectively in combat.

Keledrath
2015-02-08, 12:02 PM
I swear I've seen this recently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396248-The-Endocist-Synthesist-Summoner-as-a-Base-Class-%283-5-PEACH%29)...

Clearly that is nothing like this! It's 3.5 content!

But actually, I didn't even see that. I was building a character, and got annoyed that if I got too beaten up, I no longer be mutated. So, this.


Mutant Surge might not be functioning as you want it-- right now it's useable at will, where I think you mean "x total rounds, divided up how you want."

Yeah, that's a holdover from how I was originally going to do it (at will, lasted x rounds, then some nasty drawback for twice as long)


Metamorphosis, while nice for versatility, seems like the kind of thing that could really slow things down in the middle of a game.

What if I limited to reallocating double the value of your Mutant Surge? Makes it less extensive, but keeps the ability to be versatile


Mutations on top of Evolutions just seem redundant-- all of those look like either existing or potential Evolutions. Two sets of abilities granting essentially the same powers strikes me as sloppy game design. I'd strike the idea altogether, honestly-- the continual addition of new Evolutions is plenty to keep things interesting as you level up.

I was trying to not have a blank table, since that's not generally a thing that shows up in PF. And I'm trying to make the mutations different from evolutions, which is why I added things like Powerful/Agile Build and Mutational Suppression. And give them the ability to pick up some bonus feats. Though I suppose I could bake those into the class


I would consider making Metamorphosis last 10 min per level. Makes it similar to the Alchemist's mutagen ability, which I feel is a good baseline to start with, especially since it can't really be used effectively in combat.

Well, my thought was to make it a valuable resource by tying the duration to the uses. If I do scrap Mutations, I'll probably make that change, since as it stands the main things that Mutations are good for is grabbing up Extra Metamorphosis and Extra Mutant Surge.

Grod_The_Giant
2015-02-08, 12:52 PM
Clearly that is nothing like this! It's 3.5 content!
It's fine. I was puffing up to be indignant, than I saw that you did things pretty much totally different from how I did.


What if I limited to reallocating double the value of your Mutant Surge? Makes it less extensive, but keeps the ability to be versatile
How about making it an overnight thing? Go to sleep (in your cocoon?), wake up with a different body. That way you get day-to-day versatility, while Mutation Surge lets you handle the immediate "I need this now" business.


I was trying to not have a blank table, since that's not generally a thing that shows up in PF. And I'm trying to make the mutations different from evolutions, which is why I added things like Powerful/Agile Build and Mutational Suppression. And give them the ability to pick up some bonus feats. Though I suppose I could bake those into the class
It's not they're mechanically identical to evolutions, it's that they're conceptually identical to evolutions. You have two distinct class features representing the whole "my body is changing" thing.

You could spin some into actual class features, aye-- Mutational Disguise in particular seems like a necessity for most campaigns. Mutant Fortitude would slot in nicely at level 3 (as an Evasion-style boost), and bonus feats are always a decent thing to grant. And if you still have empty levels... I'd recommend coming up with a secondary specialization, like how my Endocist has a side focus on dealing with outsiders. It helps give the class more flavor and more versatility. Maybe something with aberrations? (A Wild Empathy analogue? Favored Enemy type bonuses?)

Keledrath
2015-02-08, 01:09 PM
How about making it an overnight thing? Go to sleep (in your cocoon?), wake up with a different body. That way you get day-to-day versatility, while Mutation Surge lets you handle the immediate "I need this now" business.

Well, I didn't want to make Red Mage the class (full rebuild every day). And Mutation Surge was more meant to provide in combat adaptability. One of the situations I imagined for Metamorphosis was needing to fly the party across a chasm: you grow wings and carry them one at a time.



It's not they're mechanically identical to evolutions, it's that they're conceptually identical to evolutions. You have two distinct class features representing the whole "my body is changing" thing.

Fair point. I suppose my conceptual divide was that Mutations were permanent and more powerful, while Evolutions were more fluid and focused (more of them, Mutant Surge, Metamorphosis)


You could spin some into actual class features, aye-- Mutational Disguise in particular seems like a necessity for most campaigns. Mutant Fortitude would slot in nicely at level 3 (as an Evasion-style boost), and bonus feats are always a decent thing to grant. And if you still have empty levels... I'd recommend coming up with a secondary specialization, like how my Endocist has a side focus on dealing with outsiders. It helps give the class more flavor and more versatility. Maybe something with aberrations? (A Wild Empathy analogue? Favored Enemy type bonuses?)

I could probably do something with aberrations, good idea. Favored Enemy is another interesting idea. I've got a drive coming up and I'll brainstorm during that.

I'm considering making a level 2 ability where you choose Agile or Powerful Build. This then determines if you get Mutant Reflexes or Mutant Fortitude

Bonus feats were a case of me not wanting to steal the Fighter's thing too badly, but I prefer being highly generous with feats (I would personally give the fighter a feat at every level on top of what he has)

Mutational Suppression was made optional because, while it may seem necessary, it's one of those abilities I could see people wanting at different levels. Some people will want it at level 1, so that they can blend in before going all monster. Others will want to delay it, because their character isn't at that level of controlling their form yet. And some people will just want to tell all the NPCs who have a problem with it to go jump in a lake.

Grod_The_Giant
2015-02-08, 02:55 PM
Well, I didn't want to make Red Mage the class (full rebuild every day). And Mutation Surge was more meant to provide in combat adaptability. One of the situations I imagined for Metamorphosis was needing to fly the party across a chasm: you grow wings and carry them one at a time.
Hmm, I missed the limited duration. Still, we again run into the redundant class features business-- you've got two sets of abilities that both represent rapidly changing your mutations. They have their own niche, sure, but it looks and feels sloppy. I suggest merging them-- the handful of points from Mutation Surge is plenty to pick up plenty of versatility. Look at how many seriously nice utility evolutions you can grab for a point or two-- movement modes, scent, a hefty skill bonus, flight, water breathing, tremorsense... the combination of Mutation Surge/utility evolution seems to do a pretty good job keeping pace with what's level-appropriate. (Climb speed or skill boosts at 1st, concealment or tremorsense at 4th, burrow or see invisibilityat 8th, lifesense or dimension door at 12th...) To have it last long enough to be useful, have Metamorphosis be a special version of Mutation Surge, where you take a few minutes to activate the ability, but each round of duration instead counts as 10 minutes.


I'm considering making a level 2 ability where you choose Agile or Powerful Build. This then determines if you get Mutant Reflexes or Mutant Fortitude
I like it. You should maybe also have a version where you stay the same size but get some other bonus (and "Mutant Will" later on)


Bonus feats were a case of me not wanting to steal the Fighter's thing too badly, but I prefer being highly generous with feats (I would personally give the fighter a feat at every level on top of what he has)
That's the Fighter's problem. Don't make other classes suffer for the Fighter being a crap design, not when you need those extra feats to fill out chains.


Mutational Suppression was made optional because, while it may seem necessary, it's one of those abilities I could see people wanting at different levels. Some people will want it at level 1, so that they can blend in before going all monster. Others will want to delay it, because their character isn't at that level of controlling their form yet. And some people will just want to tell all the NPCs who have a problem with it to go jump in a lake.
Maaaaybe... but it's still going to be necessary in most groups, probably sooner rather than later. Putting a vital ability as part of a big list of supposedly-equal options is just cruel. It's like a feat tax.

Keledrath
2015-02-08, 03:03 PM
Hmm, I missed the limited duration. Still, we again run into the redundant class features business-- you've got two sets of abilities that both represent rapidly changing your mutations. They have their own niche, sure, but it looks and feels sloppy. I suggest merging them-- the handful of points from Mutation Surge is plenty to pick up plenty of versatility. Look at how many seriously nice utility evolutions you can grab for a point or two-- movement modes, scent, a hefty skill bonus, flight, water breathing, tremorsense... the combination of Mutation Surge/utility evolution seems to do a pretty good job keeping pace with what's level-appropriate. (Climb speed or skill boosts at 1st, concealment or tremorsense at 4th, burrow or see invisibilityat 8th, lifesense or dimension door at 12th...) To have it last long enough to be useful, have Metamorphosis be a special version of Mutation Surge, where you take a few minutes to activate the ability, but each round of duration instead counts as 10 minutes.

That sounds like a good plan. Again, it mostly started as table padding



I like it. You should maybe also have a version where you stay the same size but get some other bonus (and "Mutant Will" later on)

Got any ideas? I've been trying to actually think of one.



That's the Fighter's problem. Don't make other classes suffer for the Fighter being a crap design, not when you need those extra feats to fill out chains.

Well, I want to actually maybe get to use this, and a lot of people freak out if you make something stronger than the Fighter and can't deny that it's stronger than a fighter. Also, Fighter is already a passable dip, and I didn't want this to replace Fighter as a dip class (bonus feats AND evolutions? That gets scary)



Maaaaybe... but it's still going to be necessary in most groups, probably sooner rather than later. Putting a vital ability as part of a big list of supposedly-equal options is just cruel. It's like a feat tax.

Part of my view on that was how many Mutations you were getting. Most builds could afford to drop one of the 20 that they got onto it, and I tried not to make them essential for a build coming online.

Grod_The_Giant
2015-02-08, 03:24 PM
Got any ideas? I've been trying to actually think of one.[QUOTE]
Umm... we've got small size (stealth), large size (combat)... maybe socialization? Maybe that's the version that gives you Disguise Self, and the other paths need to pick it up as a new custom evolution/buy a hat of disguise?

[QUOTE]Well, I want to actually maybe get to use this, and a lot of people freak out if you make something stronger than the Fighter and can't deny that it's stronger than a fighter. Also, Fighter is already a passable dip, and I didn't want this to replace Fighter as a dip class (bonus feats AND evolutions? That gets scary)
It's already a heck of a dip-- you can get flight, skill boosts, ability boosts, all kinds of natural weapons and special senses... but fair. Bonus feats every 3-4 levels is probably fine.

Keledrath
2015-02-08, 03:27 PM
Can't actually get flight with a dip. That requires effective summoner level 5. That's why I included Evolution Affinity: Mutant inherits the Eidolon's Evolution gates.

IZ42
2015-02-08, 04:30 PM
How bout for the mind one it looks something like this.

Indomitable Psyche(as the Agile/Powerful counterpart): You count as mindless You are immune to mind-affecting spells and SLAs(unless you wish to be affected by them) such as Dominate Person, Charm, etc. if the Caster is of a lower CL than your Mutant level(or character level), and Casters of an equal or Higher CL must succeed on a DC <enter number here> will save to affect you with such spells or SLAs.

Almarck
2015-02-08, 07:04 PM
Fun. I like the idea, but I feel Metamorphosis or some method to completely change your build needs to exist. There's also no need to be a caster, which is often a dealbreaker for summoners. Thematically bland, but that's not a bad thing and the name fits in with the idea of "evolution".

Not really sure how to rate this, but it's certainly flexibile.
Maybe it should get a d12 hit dice?

The only other complaint I have is one I have in regards to 3.P and normal Eidelions: no natural ranged weapons. And Eidelions get no access to disposable ranged weapons breath attacks from what I can tell. Again, those are more a fault of the summoner lacking options.

IZ42
2015-02-08, 07:45 PM
Actually, there is a Breath Weapon evolution that is worth 4 EP.


EDIT: I would also have mutations occur once at 1st level, once at 2nd level, and once every 2 levels after. (EX: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20) and make the final mutation a special one, like Grand Hex/Discovery/Etc.

Keledrath
2015-02-08, 10:19 PM
I won't be at a computer long enough until tomorrow afternoon, but an overhaul is coming to the whole system, including an Akashic style path choice.

Keledrath
2015-02-09, 01:12 PM
Going to answer this before I do my rewrite


Fun. I like the idea, but I feel Metamorphosis or some method to completely change your build needs to exist. There's also no need to be a caster, which is often a dealbreaker for summoners. Thematically bland, but that's not a bad thing and the name fits in with the idea of "evolution".

I generally try to make things fluff neutral, since I feel fluff is the job of the player. For example, you could combine this with my Forgeborn template (basically PF Warforged) and make a character who modifies his own mechanical body.


Not really sure how to rate this, but it's certainly flexibile.
Maybe it should get a d12 hit dice?

It is meant to be flexible, and it is not getting a d12. It's based off of the eidolon, and inherited the d10 HD from there


The only other complaint I have is one I have in regards to 3.P and normal Eidelions: no natural ranged weapons. And Eidelions get no access to disposable ranged weapons breath attacks from what I can tell.

I think I might crib in an evolution based on the Manticore Belt from 3.5.


Again, those are more a fault of the summoner lacking options.

Wat

Almarck
2015-02-09, 01:27 PM
Lacking the optiob to give it's eidelions the power to shoot spines at a distance specifically. It's less lacking overall options but lacking very specific options

IZ42
2015-02-09, 04:06 PM
Yeah, the fact that the eidolon has limited ranged capability annoys me. There should be an evolution like this:

The eidolon grows spines that it can launch at enemies. These spines deal 1d6(not sure if there should be a damage modifier) of medium or 1d8 if large and have a range of 60 ft. Applying reach to the spines evolution adds 20 feet to the range (or maybe gives the Eidolon far shot for the purposes of firing spines). An eidolon can fire 1d4 spines per round, and may fire X more spines each time he takes this evolution. Rapid Shot and Manyshot to not affect spines, but Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot work as normal.

Keledrath
2015-02-09, 05:18 PM
Alright, the class itself is now updated into a Google Doc (better tables). I'm going to work on the ranged attack after dinner, but it will likely be associated with Nimble Mutants.

IZ42
2015-02-09, 05:31 PM
Why should it have to be. The tarrasque is definitely not the most Nimble of creatures, yet it has spines.

Almarck
2015-02-09, 05:35 PM
I think Dexterity for aiming is okay, but strength could be added to the damage, like a Composite bow

Keledrath
2015-02-09, 05:44 PM
Why should it have to be. The tarrasque is definitely not the most Nimble of creatures, yet it has spines.

I was unaware that PF had added them. And I don't think you understand how associated evolutions work. Each Path (Nimble, Growth, Internal) has associated evolutions. You must spend at least one EP per level on associated evolutions.

MorgromTheOrc
2015-02-09, 06:17 PM
This is perfect, the other similar homebrew class is really nice too but quite a bit different from what I wanted. This matches exactly what I've wanted for so long. One thing I liked about the other class though is double class level as summoner level, because though it makes sense for the summoner's eidolon not to get abilities reminiscent of a character their level, this is your character. Though maybe 1.5 times if that's still too powerful given the versatility.

And if you're looking for something to fill the gap but don't want to go with bonus feats maybe you could have a plus 1-2 increase of the related ability score to the build type you choose(fort, ref, or will) every 3-5 levels depending on how you space it for power? And I'm trying not to be so critical on your decisions here but I actually like the mutation thing and maybe if you plan on keeping it give the option to use a mutation point as an evolution point unless you plan on expanding the table?(or 2 evolution points since you said mutation was supposed to be more powerful) But if you do decide to scrap mutations a general boost to evolution points combined with or instead just the above points made by me and/or others could round this off really well. I don't mind the metamorphosis as you have it personally but maybe either less time to do it or overnight as was mentioned.

Ending statement: Again I'm sorry if I was to critical I do really love it and really hope it gets finished to the level that it can be at least somewhat commonly excepted at most gaming tables.
Edit: You updated it as I was typing my post lol. I love the changes though I hope at least some of what I said is still relevant.

Keledrath
2015-02-09, 06:34 PM
Yeah, the rewrite was moderately extensive, but I feel the class is stronger for it. I took a leaf out of the pages of DSP's Akashic Mysteries by giving three paths that you can choose to determine you primary role/abilities. I'm thinking I might give them Path based abilities as well

Nimble is dominantly a skill monkey, but also fills the role of an assassin with their mobility. This is Mystique. I'm thinking about giving them a half-progression Sneak Attack.

Growth is meant to be a Wolverine. I'm considering giving them Weapon Training with natural attacks

Internal is meant to be the mystic caster style mutant. Think Professor X or Magneto. I'm thinking something psionic here. Maybe some limited manifest (Awakened Blade style)?

MorgromTheOrc
2015-02-09, 06:41 PM
Yeah, the rewrite was moderately extensive, but I feel the class is stronger for it. I took a leaf out of the pages of DSP's Akashic Mysteries by giving three paths that you can choose to determine you primary role/abilities. I'm thinking I might give them Path based abilities as well

Nimble is dominantly a skill monkey, but also fills the role of an assassin with their mobility. This is Mystique. I'm thinking about giving them a half-progression Sneak Attack.

Growth is meant to be a Wolverine. I'm considering giving them Weapon Training with natural attacks

Internal is meant to be the mystic caster style mutant. Think Professor X or Magneto. I'm thinking something psionic here. Maybe some limited manifest (Awakened Blade style)?

Maybe you could just add cheaper manifesting equivalents of the spell evolutions that are only available or at least cheaper for the internal types? And then possibly add in a evolution to get a small number of power points for special ability evolutions or giving them psionic focus?

IZ42
2015-02-09, 07:04 PM
Didn't see the Doc when I posted that, Oops. But looks alright to me. Tempted to playtest this, I think I have a character sheet that's actually for this class.


One problem though: to get any sort of damage output off of spines, you have to spend A lot of
EP to pick up more. Also, Did you consider my idea for the reach evolution applied to spines?

Keledrath
2015-02-09, 07:15 PM
The thing with the Spines is that, to get them at full effectiveness, you need to spend 6 points at 5 (just over half) and 17 at 20 (again, just over half.

As a side note, I am considering making the rate that you gain EP a solid 2/level, which would give you 43 at 20. I'm going to start running damage sims shortly (or I might ask Psybomb if he'll do it, he loves those things) to see where things fall, but, if the numbers changed like that, do you think that would be a fair degree of investment for the reward you get? Keeping in mind that I'm also considering giving Nimble Sneak Attack at half strength (5d6 at 20).

MorgromTheOrc
2015-02-09, 07:33 PM
The thing with the Spines is that, to get them at full effectiveness, you need to spend 6 points at 5 (just over half) and 17 at 20 (again, just over half.

As a side note, I am considering making the rate that you gain EP a solid 2/level, which would give you 43 at 20. I'm going to start running damage sims shortly (or I might ask Psybomb if he'll do it, he loves those things) to see where things fall, but, if the numbers changed like that, do you think that would be a fair degree of investment for the reward you get? Keeping in mind that I'm also considering giving Nimble Sneak Attack at half strength (5d6 at 20).

So you mean start with 3 and gain 2 per level as in at 5th level you'd have 13 or am I missing something?

As far as damage it doesn't seem too OP as is. I'd probably expect the growth path build at level 5 to have 4 natural attacks that do an average of 1d8 damage each for about 16 overall and then the average player of that build would likely have 18 strength for another 10 total damage and possibly some from power attack but a full attack like that likely wouldn't hit with every strike on average. So a total average of about 26 from my point of view at level 5 isn't to bad as long as it was better optimised with a higher strength score. Though I'm no pro at this so take with a grain of salt.

More passive things with paths like a bonus with the recommended evolutions rather than just being forced to take some might accomplish this. Like maybe as I said before maybe your class level is considered 1.5 times higher related to those evolutions or possibly scaling based on a modifier?

Keledrath
2015-02-09, 07:37 PM
So you mean start with 3 and gain 2 per level as in at 5th level you'd have 13 or am I missing something?

Basically, at every level after first you would gain 2.


As far as damage it doesn't seem too OP as is. I'd probably expect the growth path build at level 5 to have 4 natural attacks that do an average of 1d8 damage each for about 16 overall and then the average player of that build would likely have 18 strength for another 10 total damage and possibly some from power attack but a full attack like that likely wouldn't hit with every strike on average. So a total average of about 26 from my point of view at level 5 isn't to bad as long as it was better optimised with a higher strength score. Though I'm no pro at this so take with a grain of salt.

I'm mostly concerned with the power potential of Growth. Especially when they hit the size increases.


More passive things with paths like a bonus with the recommended evolutions rather than just being forced to take some might accomplish this. Like maybe as I said before maybe your class level is considered 1.5 times higher related to those evolutions or possibly scaling based on a modifier?

Unlikely. I think the Summoner's gating was fine with those, so I don't really want to accelerate their acquisition.

MorgromTheOrc
2015-02-09, 07:45 PM
Basically, at every level after first you would gain 2.



I'm mostly concerned with the power potential of Growth. Especially when they hit the size increases.



Unlikely. I think the Summoner's gating was fine with those, so I don't really want to accelerate their acquisition.

Oh so you start with the five and then gain 2 each level, gotcha pretty much same effect as I thought at higher levels then. And I can definitely see what you mean by potential of growth. I'd probably focus on 2 or 3 main attacks getting at least 2d6 on each and strength in the high 20's. If I was optimising. I guess it depends on what tier you wanted this to be at?(though I usually don't approve of tiering classes)

Almarck
2015-02-09, 07:47 PM
Well, I don't think Sneak Attack would be the best call, but then again, I don't got a better idea on what to recommend instead.


As for Internal, yeah, I can see that, going psuedo caster. Perhaps a better thing to consider would be an eldritch blast style of deal?

MorgromTheOrc
2015-02-09, 07:57 PM
Well, I don't think Sneak Attack would be the best call, but then again, I don't got a better idea on what to recommend instead.


As for Internal, yeah, I can see that, going psuedo caster. Perhaps a better thing to consider would be an eldritch blast style of deal?

I second the eldritch blast idea but maybe styled more psionic as was said was the base earlier. Though I think the sneak attack works well as is, unless you're thinking a non-scaled version with a bonus to hide would work better, or were you thinking the light type should be more ranger and less rogue?

Ralanr
2015-02-09, 08:07 PM
This class makes me wanna play a shadow beast...which I've always wanted to play thematically.

Almarck
2015-02-09, 08:09 PM
I second the eldritch blast idea but maybe styled more psionic as was said was the base earlier. Though I think the sneak attack works well as is, unless you're thinking a non-scaled version with a bonus to hide would work better, or were you thinking the light type should be more ranger and less rogue?

It's more that I think a full scaling SA might be too much given all the natural weapons and buffs you can put on yourself. Half Strength is more bearable, but I have no idea if it is too powerful or not. It's probably okay though. Slayers get dice higher and they've got full BAB.

The other reason is because... I don't know how I feel about "precision" damage when you become Large sized via size boosters. Makes sense when you're smaller or the same size as your enemies, but once you get bigger, it starts getting hard to really explain it. Iknow we're dealing with superhumans after a point, but it does kinda bother me. Personal reasons, so, I guess it's not a big deal.

Keledrath
2015-02-09, 08:13 PM
The other reason is because... I don't know how I feel about "precision" damage when you become Large sized via size boosters. Makes sense when you're smaller or the same size as your enemies, but once you get bigger, it starts getting hard to really explain it. Iknow we're dealing with superhumans after a point, but it does kinda bother me. Personal reasons, so, I guess it's not a big deal.

Well, Large isn't generally a good idea for Nimbles. Nimbles are about Dex and skillmonkeying. I actually added a Small evolution specially for them.

Large, meanwhile, goes with Growth Mutants, which are getting Weapon Training.

MorgromTheOrc
2015-02-09, 08:49 PM
Well, Large isn't generally a good idea for Nimbles. Nimbles are about Dex and skillmonkeying. I actually added a Small evolution specially for them.

Large, meanwhile, goes with Growth Mutants, which are getting Weapon Training.

So would you say the class is pretty close to being finished then, or is there still a lot you want to add?

IZ42
2015-02-09, 08:52 PM
Hey guys, not to interrupt your fun class building, but check this out: Aegis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis) and the Aberrant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/aberrant) archetype. It's pretty much what's being built here, although less customizable. Maybe look here for inspiration?

Keledrath
2015-02-09, 09:59 PM
My objection is that I don't want this class to be inherently magic/psionic. The option is there for Internals, but I'm picturing more of the Thing, the Hulk, or Wolverine.

Almarck
2015-02-09, 10:00 PM
All of those are of the big and meaty type of mutants to be fair. They do not represent all mutants.

Keledrath
2015-02-09, 10:10 PM
All of those are of the big and meaty type of mutants to be fair. They do not represent all mutants.

Sorry, I meant to specify that was for Growth Mutants.

IZ42
2015-02-09, 10:10 PM
I was giving an example for inspiration, nothing more. There are some evolutions/modifications you could use for the class.

Grod_The_Giant
2015-02-10, 05:55 PM
One thing I liked about the other class though is double class level as summoner level, because though it makes sense for the summoner's eidolon not to get abilities reminiscent of a character their level, this is your character.
Yeah, that was actually a mistake, left over from when I originally wrote it as a PrC. The evolutions are still level-appropriate, for the most part.

Anyway. On to the class here.


Metamorphosis is insane. You can rebuild practically your entire character every night. I don't approve of it when casters do it, and I'm not a fan of it here, either. I'd stick to, oh, reallocating 1/2 level points at a time or some such value. (I don't think it's broken, per say, because Evolutions aren't that strong, but it's an incredibly potent ability)
Mutational Path should specify when you get the Mutational Defense abilities-- right now, a good argument could be made for getting all at 5th level.
The Associated Evolutions bit of Mutational Path seems kind of irrelevant. What about counting as 2 levels higher when qualifying for Associated Evolutions?
I'd move the Growth Path's Greater Mutational Defense all the way to the final stage-- it essentially gives you immunity to Fortitude-based effects, given how they tend to work.
Not sure if Pathfinder did things differently, but in 3.5 "Agile Build" was called "Slight Build."
I'd make it explicit that the Nimble Path gives you Evasion/Improved Evasion, since it might matter for PrCs and feats and the like.
I'd fit the "Evolutions of Note" bit into/under the Evolutions class ability.
To make the Powerful/Agile/Deceptive Build evolutions operate a bit more gracefully, how about having the Mutational Path grant them as a bonus evolution? That way the paths that need the effects still get 'em, but you don't need the added language about which paths can and can't take the evolution again.
I'm with the "Spines are too weak" camp. To have a useful ranged attack, you pretty much need to fill your Maximum Attacks limit with spikes, then Dextrous Spines. take Maybe have each iteration grant 1 primary weapon spineand 1-2 secondary spines? Or let normal archery-boosting feats boost the number of spikes you can fire. Or just grant two spines/evolution, they're pretty weak individually.
Venom Spines is waay to weak. 1 Con damage? As a poison effect? With a save? At level 13? For 4 evolution points? It'd be fine at level 5 for two points, I think. The Save is... well, it may be necessary, given how many spines you'll eventually be throwing, but that same factor is also going to make it clumsy. How about having the evolution do a static, oh, 2d4 Con damage, with a save DC of 10 + number of spines they got hit by + Con modifier?


But overall, it's looking a lot better. I like the Mutation Path business, and the revised Mutation Surge seems much more manageable.

Keledrath
2015-02-10, 06:11 PM
Metamorphosis is insane. You can rebuild practically your entire character every night. I don't approve of it when casters do it, and I'm not a fan of it here, either. I'd stick to, oh, reallocating 1/2 level points at a time or some such value. (I don't think it's broken, per say, because Evolutions aren't that strong, but it's an incredibly potent ability)

I tried to give it a drawback with the fatigue, but I guess it really isn't enough. Maybe move it back to like a 17+ ability and make something more akin to the old metamorphosis.



Mutational Path should specify when you get the Mutational Defense abilities-- right now, a good argument could be made for getting all at 5th level.

That is currently in my table, just not in my text.


The Associated Evolutions bit of Mutational Path seems kind of irrelevant. What about counting as 2 levels higher when qualifying for Associated Evolutions?

As it stands, Associated evolutions are meant to be a restriction, not an enhancement. I've got Psybomb running some damage sims at various levels, once I see how they stack up I might actually use that.


I'd move the Growth Path's Greater Mutational Defense all the way to the final stage-- it essentially gives you immunity to Fortitude-based effects, given how they tend to work.

Huh? All the greater does is that you don't fail on a 1. All of the Defenses are actually the same, just with a different save.


Not sure if Pathfinder did things differently, but in 3.5 "Agile Build" was called "Slight Build."

I don't think PF has it at all. I just used Agile because it was suggested under that name. I knew 3.5 had it, but I have sadly not run enough kobolds to have the name memorized.


I'd make it explicit that the Nimble Path gives you Evasion/Improved Evasion, since it might matter for PrCs and feats and the like.

Point


I'd fit the "Evolutions of Note" bit into/under the Evolutions class ability.

I kept it separate because, hypothetically, Summoners could use these to. Kind of like you don't cover new spells under a Spells section in the class.

Gotta go, will edit in answers to the rest when I get back in an hour or two.


To make the Powerful/Agile/Deceptive Build evolutions operate a bit more gracefully, how about having the Mutational Path grant them as a bonus evolution? That way the paths that need the effects still get 'em, but you don't need the added language about which paths can and can't take the evolution again.

This is a good idea. The original plan was to only allow Deceptive Build to be available to other Paths, but then I decided that was unfair. Will rewrite shortly.


I'm with the "Spines are too weak" camp. To have a useful ranged attack, you pretty much need to fill your Maximum Attacks limit with spikes, then Dextrous Spines. take Maybe have each iteration grant 1 primary weapon spineand 1-2 secondary spines? Or let normal archery-boosting feats boost the number of spikes you can fire. Or just grant two spines/evolution, they're pretty weak individually.

I knew I forgot something. Spines are not supposed to be limited by the Max Attacks limit. Also, bear in mind that I'm considering (based on the results of Psybomb's damage sims) adding half strength Sneak Attack onto Nimble Path, which means ultimately 5d6 per spine on 5 spines as a standard and 10 as a full.


Venom Spines is waay to weak. 1 Con damage? As a poison effect? With a save? At level 13? For 4 evolution points? It'd be fine at level 5 for two points, I think. The Save is... well, it may be necessary, given how many spines you'll eventually be throwing, but that same factor is also going to make it clumsy. How about having the evolution do a static, oh, 2d4 Con damage, with a save DC of 10 + number of spines they got hit by + Con modifier?

I was erring on the side of caution. Con damage is a terrifying beast, and most dangerous against the enemies most vulnerable (low Fortitude save usually = low Con score). Again, this is something I want to get a gauge on the current damage values with the sims. The DC change would probably be solid enough if I go that route. I chose to spread it out for the purpose of non-focus fire. Hypothetically your version could deal out 20d4 Con damage in a single turn if you landed each spine on a different target and they all failed saves (unlikely, but possible)


But overall, it's looking a lot better. I like the Mutation Path business, and the revised Mutation Surge seems much more manageable.

Thank you. As the biggest issues seem to be with Spines, I will wait and see where the damage sims come out. Options include simply giving Dex to damage, doubled vs flat footed, or making it so that you get 2 spines per point, capped at your level.

Keledrath
2015-02-10, 08:38 PM
Alright, Grod, my edits have been added and the doc has been at least partially updated. I'm adding the table for the Internal's powers now. I decided to open them up to the Psychometabolism and Telepathy disciplines.

Also, I realized I've been saying Awakened Blade. I've meant Gifted Blade, the manifesting Soulknife archetype.

PsyBomb
2015-02-10, 09:26 PM
Hello!

I'm reading through and building for the sims. So far, I am making a Growth pouncer and a Nimble Spines build. Checkpoints at 6 and 20, might do 12 as well on request. If anyone has a build they want me to look at, go ahead and post it. 20-PB, and no more than half of WBL applied to damage (assuming the rest is on things like armor, movement modes, and other utility).

I will be using some playtest material, but only ones that are likely to see print in their current form. DSP, basically.

Growth sim for 6 will be up tonight, plus some general suggestions for clarity and rules patches on some that work oddly.

EDIT: Ok, here we go. As I said, using some playtest material, and will link any such I use. This is not 100% optimized for damage, but it's close.

Target Definition: AC 19. HP 68. These are the Medians for a CR6 monster. Target damage out is 100-200% of the target's HP.

Raj: Nameer (https://www.dropbox.com/s/tfwab1frbgm7ocj/Akashic%20Races.pdf) Mutant (Growth) 6
Relevant stats: 23 Str (includes +2 Str belt)
Feats: 1B) Power Attack 1) Chakra Power(2 essence) 3) Reckless Offense 5) <irrelevant atm, leads into nice bonuses later>
Equipment: Amulet of Natural Attacks +1, Belt of Mighty Strength +2
Evolutions (14 EP to use, 6 must be from Growth): Pounce (3), Limbs (arms, 2), Claws (1), Gore (2), Tail (1), Sting (1), Powerful build (2), Ability Increase (Str, 2)

Attacks: Allowed four before racials, has two 1d4 claws racially. This will be off a charge.
Attack roll: 6 BAB +6(Str) +2(Reckless) +1(Enh) +2(Charge) -2(PA)= +14. 80% accuracy on the target
Damage: +6(Str) +1(Enh) +4(PA) +2(Chakra) = +13.
Claws: 1d6+13 (16.5 avg *.8 accuracy = 13.2 expected) x4
Sting: 1d6+13 (16.5 *.8 accuracy = 13.2 expected)
Gore: 1d8+13 (17.5 *.8 accuracy = 14 expected)

(13.2*5)+14= 80 expected damage, or 117% of the target's median HP. Not too shabby, and right where I'd expect a decent damage dealer to be in the hands of someone with good system mastery. Please note that coming VERY soon on the build (in two levels) is Large, and with it a bit of space to take Energy attacks and other such bonuses.

MorgromTheOrc
2015-02-11, 10:04 AM
Have you considered how it meshes with other classes when thinking about damage potential? Like when mixed with a shapeshift druid/warshaper? I could see some potential cheeses there with natural weapons, even if they don't abuse the infinite natural weapons. Though even then it wouldn't touch casters and the like.

Keledrath
2015-02-11, 10:19 AM
Psybomb, I think you missed part of the update. Growth Mutants get Powerful build for free, so you have 2 more EP to work with. Also, I added Natural Weapon Training to them, so each attack has +2 to hit and damage. That might push it into absurd.

PsyBomb
2015-02-11, 10:26 AM
Psybomb, I think you missed part of the update. Growth Mutants get Powerful build for free, so you have 2 more EP to work with. Also, I added Natural Weapon Training to them, so each attack has +2 to hit and damage. That might push it into absurd.

The +2 to hit matters a lot, the two EP loosened up will probably end up being Elemental Weapons. I'll re-sim it later today, should have time during lunch. Anything below 150% of median target HP is still very reasonable, though, remember that the way this guy is built he isn't doing much else but damage.

Keledrath
2015-02-11, 10:58 AM
Fair point. He doesn't even have Deceptive Build, so he's walking around with four arms, a tail with a stinger, horns, and totally hulked out the whole time.

PsyBomb
2015-02-11, 11:12 AM
Alright, napkin-mathed it. I'll edit it in here later, but it works out to 119.7 expected damage, assuming no no resistance to your energy type. 176% of expected HP, still not unreasonable.

EDIT: Full version

Raj: Nameer (https://www.dropbox.com/s/tfwab1frbgm7ocj/Akashic%20Races.pdf) Mutant (Growth) 6
Relevant stats: 23 Str (includes +2 Str belt)
Feats: 1B) Power Attack 1) Chakra Power(2 essence) 3) Reckless Offense 5) <irrelevant atm, leads into nice bonuses later>
Equipment: Amulet of Natural Attacks +1, Belt of Mighty Strength +2
Evolutions (14 EP to use, 6 must be from Growth): Powerful Build (free), Pounce (3), Limbs (arms, 2), Claws (1), Gore (2), Tail (1), Sting (1), Energy Weapons (Acid, 2), Ability Increase (Str, 2)

Attacks: Allowed four before racials, has two 1d4 claws racially. This will be off a charge.
Attack roll: 6 BAB +6(Str) +2(Reckless) +1(Enh) +2(Charge) +2 Aptitude -2(PA)= +16. 90% accuracy on the target
Damage: +1d6(Acid) +6(Str) +1(Enh) +4(PA) +2(Chakra) +2 Aptitude= +1d6+15.
Claws: 2d6+15 (22 avg *.9 accuracy = 19.8 expected) x4
Sting: 2d6+15 (22 *.9 accuracy = 19.8 expected)
Gore: 1d8+1d6+15 (23 *.9 accuracy = 20.7 expected)

(19.8*5)+20.7= 119.7 expected damage

Keledrath
2015-02-11, 11:29 AM
Alright, given that this assumes neither energy resistance nor DR (which would be highly relevant here), I feel that's a safe place for them to be.

With that said, how would an extra 4 EP factor in? That would be the result should I make it 3 EP per level instead of trying to follow the original Eidolon's pattern with Extra Evolution baked in. I'm not seeing a lot of room for more damage, so would those likely go towards utility?

PsyBomb
2015-02-11, 12:01 PM
4 more? Probably Wings and Magic Attacks. Again, talking about a pure DPR build here. I would probably build with Deceptive and some utility before the above stinger in an actual game.

Grod_The_Giant
2015-02-11, 02:04 PM
I tried to give it a drawback with the fatigue, but I guess it really isn't enough. Maybe move it back to like a 17+ ability and make something more akin to the old metamorphosis.
Yeah. Fatigue is pretty easy to avoid, and not that terrible a debuff.


That is currently in my table, just not in my text.
At least in 3.5, the rule is that text trumps table in the case of a conflict.


Huh? All the greater does is that you don't fail on a 1. All of the Defenses are actually the same, just with a different save.
I might have typed wrong-- I mean the Improved Evasion style "always take the better result on a Fort/Will save" bit-- unlike Reflex-based spells, the "better result" is usually complete or near-complete avoidance of the effect.


I kept it separate because, hypothetically, Summoners could use these to. Kind of like you don't cover new spells under a Spells section in the class.
I was referring to the specific restrictions about what paths could take what evolutions-- for example, the banning of Mount and Weapon Training.


I was erring on the side of caution. Con damage is a terrifying beast, and most dangerous against the enemies most vulnerable (low Fortitude save usually = low Con score). Again, this is something I want to get a gauge on the current damage values with the sims. The DC change would probably be solid enough if I go that route. I chose to spread it out for the purpose of non-focus fire. Hypothetically your version could deal out 20d4 Con damage in a single turn if you landed each spine on a different target and they all failed saves (unlikely, but possible)
Numbers were just off the top of my head, but they do need to be level appropriate. Look at other classes that can do Con damage for comparison.

Keledrath
2015-02-11, 02:14 PM
Yeah. Fatigue is pretty easy to avoid, and not that terrible a debuff.

And of course I forgot the clause for making it "Fatigue, but not Fatigue for the purposes of immunity to Fatigue"



At least in 3.5, the rule is that text trumps table in the case of a conflict.

I was more saying that I just hadn't put it in the text yet. And since there was nothing referencing a level in the text, the table's level would have the trump



I might have typed wrong-- I mean the Improved Evasion style "always take the better result on a Fort/Will save" bit-- unlike Reflex-based spells, the "better result" is usually complete or near-complete avoidance of the effect.

Note that it specifies it only works for Fort partial, not Fort negates. Same with Will.



I was referring to the specific restrictions about what paths could take what evolutions-- for example, the banning of Mount and Weapon Training.

Perhaps. For now, I'm just keeping a list of notes there in case I notice something else that needs to go on the list.



Numbers were just off the top of my head, but they do need to be level appropriate. Look at other classes that can do Con damage for comparison.

Sadly, I'm not overly familiar with some of the options available to PF classes. I wasn't actually aware that any of them gave you the ability to deal Con damage.

PsyBomb
2015-02-11, 09:35 PM
Nimble build time. It is a sneak build, under the assumption that you go pure Mutant and ambush with Spines from out of nowhere. At level 6, it is quite feasible to catch enemies flatfooted on the first assault, so that's how this will go. In practice, this guy can be built to be a PARAMOUNT scout. At level 6, I was looking at Run/Climb/Swim/Fly of 40 feet each (racial +10 speed on this one), with Stealth at +25. That build didn't have the Acid on the attacks, but you get the point. Err... points.

Target definition changes, AC 17 is median flat-footed

Bindh: Nameer (https://www.dropbox.com/s/tfwab1frbgm7ocj/Akashic%20Races.pdf) Mutant (Nimble) 6
Relevant stats: 27 Dex (includes +2 Dex belt), 10 Str
Feats: 1B) Weapon Finesse 1) Point Blank Shot 3) Deadly Aim 5) Chakra Targeting (2 essence)
Equipment: Amulet of Natural Attacks +1, Belt of Mighty Dexterity +2
Evolutions (14 EP to use, 6 must be from Nimble): Agile Build (Free), Spines x3 (3), Dangerous Spines (3), Ability Increase x2 (Dex, 4), Skilled (Stealth, 1), Scent (1), Energy Attacks (Acid, 2)

Attacks: Has two 1d4 claws as backup weapons.
Attack roll: 6 BAB +8(Dex) +1(Enh) +1(size) +1 (PBS) -2(DA) +2 (CT)= +17. 95% accuracy on the target
Damage: 1d6(base) +2d6(sneak) +1d6(Acid) +8(Dex) +1(Enh) +4(DA) +2(Chakra) +1 (PBS) = 4d6+16 (30 avg *.95 acc = 28.5) x3.

28.5*3= 85.5 expected damage. Sufficient for our purposes. If they become aware of you, though, this drops off SHARPLY (loses 2d6 from sneak and 8 from dex, plus becomes 90% accurate instead of 95%).

Keledrath
2015-02-11, 10:00 PM
Alright, so it's decent if you get a surprise round. Perhaps I'll meet Grod halfway and make it so that each time you take the evolution, you get 2 Spines: A primary that can be used in the standard action volley and a secondary that is only included in the full attack volley. The secondary gets half bonus damage.

upho
2015-02-11, 10:03 PM
I swear I've seen this recently... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?370168-Wrathblood-a-T3-quot-monster-quot-bloodrager-archetype-PEACH!)
No, just kidding! My mutie is a quite different bloodrager "monster" archetype.
This looks nice, I like it! Though not that I think you're doing anything much the eidolon hasn't already done, players would need to be really careful with this beast, you can quite easily waltz all over most other melee classes' (including initiators) toes with this.

Anywho, while I'm gonna have some fun and put together something insane with this awesome new shiny toy (or rather "giant lump of play-dough") you've given me, check out the new evos for the wrathblood archetype I linked to and feel free to pilfer/take inspiration from/copy whatever you may like.

I'll be back soon with something hysterically over-the-top, hopefully...

*goes off to play with metric tons of new cool Kele-dough*

Keledrath
2015-02-11, 10:07 PM
I swear I've seen this recently... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?370168-Wrathblood-a-T3-quot-monster-quot-bloodrager-archetype-PEACH!)

I'll take a look at yours later on. Currently in recess for my own campaign.


This looks nice, I like it! Though not that I think you're doing anything much the eidolon hasn't already done, players would need to be really careful with this beast, you can quite easily waltz all over most other melee classes' (including initiators) toes with this.

That's actually why I'm having Psybomb.


Anywho, while I'm gonna have some fun and put together something insane with this awesome new shiny toy (or rather "giant lump of play-dough") you've given me, check out the new evos for the wrathblood archetype I linked to and feel free to pilfer/take inspiration from/copy whatever you may like.

I shall


I'll be back soon with something hysterically over-the-top, hopefully...

*goes off to play with metric tons of new cool Kele-dough*

That doesn't quite sound healthy.

PsyBomb
2015-02-12, 07:45 AM
Can't wait to see what you come up with, Upho. I'll put it through the paces to see how it measures up, just use 20-PB

upho
2015-02-12, 09:19 AM
That doesn't quite sound healthy.You bet it's not. But fun, since I did get to turn my "ton of Kele-dough" into something really hysterically over-the-top! I hereby present the young hero Knott Kwait'ealthie, who despite having a mere 14 levels in mutant adventuring keeps the Tarrasque in his backyard for, and I quote "lazy one-shot pleasure hunting during the weekends"!


Colossal Oni-spawn tiefling mutant 14

Evolutions
Evos 19 (23) EP Large, Limbs x2, Improved Damage (Claws), Improved Natural Armor x2, Flight (magic) 30 ft., Damage Reduction 10/lawful
Mutant Surge 8(4) EP Huge, Claws x2

Active Manifestation
Metamorphosis, augment 4 (tot 9 pp) 2 categories size increase, 2 claw attacks, +4 dex enhancement

Relevant Gear
+5 Amulet of Mighty Frost Fist, +1 Mithral Brawling Chain Shirt, +6 Belt, Boots of Speed (activated)
Total cost: 168,100 gp (of expected 185,000 gp)

Stats 20 PB
Str 48 17 base, +2 racial, +3 level, +6 belt, +16 size huge evo, +4 size colossal metamorphosis
Dex 10 14 base, -4 size huge evo, -4 size colossal metamorphosis, +4 augment metamorphosis
Con 18 14 base, +4 huge evo
Int 7
Wis 16 14 base, +2 racial
Cha 5 7 base, -2 racial

Feats
1 Fiendish Heritage (Claws); Internal Path Bonus ?
2 Bonus Power Attack
3 WF (Claws)
5 IUS; Bonus FCT (Claws)
7 Martial Training I (whatever)
8 Bonus Martial Training II (whatever)
9 Horn of the Criosphinx
10 Bonus Improved Natural Attack
11 Pummeling Style; Bonus Martial Training III (Broken Blade Stance)
13 Pummeling Charge
14 Bonus Improved Critical (Claws)

120 ft. Pummeling Charge
11 Claw Attacks +39 +14 bab, +19 str, +1 WF, +5 AoMFF, +2 brawling, +1 haste, +1 charge, -4 PA
5 Metamorphosis, Broken Blade stance & haste claws damage 96.5/19-20x2(189.5) 8d8 +38 str, +12 PA, +5 AoMFF, +2 brawling, +1d6 cold AoMFF
6 Tiefling & Evo claws damage 88.5/19-20x2(173.5) 8d6 +38 str, +12 PA, +5 AoMFF, +2 brawling, +1d6 cold AoMFF



So if Knott would crash into the Tarrasque (CR 25, AC 40) with the above preparations, his whole Pummeling Style attack has rather cheestastic 65.2% average chance to result in a crit (0.95% crit confirmation probability x (1-(0.911) total crit chance). So the average damage resulting from the average crit chance is by itself more than 1296 points.... (1988.5 total crit damage ((5 x 189.5) + (6 x 173.5)) x 0.652 total crit chance.) In other words, way more than needed to one-shot the Tarrasque not once, but twice. It would probably take the monster more than 30 rounds to get back up, despite a godlike regeneration 40.

Higher level foes of course quite commonly have nasty stuff barring Knott's charge, but if he would for example be able to get at least a few rounds of immunity to death effects from somewhere, he might even be able to dig into the cold and slimy rubbery flesh of Great Cthulu (CR 30, AC 49). In this case, Knott's Pummeling has a more reasonable 37.3% average chance to result in a crit (0.55% crit confirmation probability x (1-(0.911) total crit chance), and the resulting average damage would be about 741 points (1988.5 total crit damage ((5 x 189.5) + (6 x 173.5)) x 0.373 total crit chance). Cthulu's few remaining 52 HP (after taking the Old One's DR into account) and fantastic Con of 45 would still not be anyway near enough from stopping Knott's attack making a fine mist out of that legend. Just before that other "dead"-Cthulu mist shows up so Knott can repeat the process, I mean. :smalltongue:

This is of course dependent on me not having totally missed something vitally important, which is frankly quite likely, looking at my track record with hastily put-together builds. :smallredface: But if not, even if the forgotten defenses of Knott Kwuait'ealthie probably soon would render him "not quite healthy" in a real game, a more practical-op build by a real optimizer would probably still be able to do at least half as much damage and still be horrendously broken. Well, maybe not at Tippy's table, but...

And AFAIK, there are no summoners builds that would be able to deal this kind of damage to the Tarrasque at 14th level.

EDIT: Arrrgh! Just realized mr Knot here lost a major part of his damage because I fiddled around with too many ideas at the same time. In short, he should be level 15, having one level of MoMS monk as well (which would allow him to afford both Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity, on top of getting his Criosphinx damage back in order again). No numbers that really need changing, though he does a bit more damage with his first claw attack in a charge now. Sorry 'bout this. /EDIT

Keledrath
2015-02-12, 03:59 PM
Okay, note to self: Ban off Discipline Psion lists. I haven't actually got too much experience with DSP Psionics, sadly. I got into DSP content about the time PoW came out, and personally prefer using PoW when I can, so I didn't realize that you could grab a 2 size increase with a third level power.

Keledrath
2015-02-12, 05:36 PM
Okay, so I'm switching Internal Mutant from any power in those disciplines to PsyWar powers in the selected disciplines.

Grod_The_Giant
2015-02-13, 09:40 AM
Okay, note to self: Ban off Discipline Psion lists. I haven't actually got too much experience with DSP Psionics, sadly. I got into DSP content about the time PoW came out, and personally prefer using PoW when I can, so I didn't realize that you could grab a 2 size increase with a third level power.
I'll note that you need to spend 6pp augmenting the power to nab that increase, which makes the final cost equivalent to a 5th level spell slot, and requires an ML of 9.

Keledrath
2015-02-13, 10:29 AM
Well, Internal Mutants are getting full ML and doesn't get 3rd level powers until 10th level.

In retrospect, it will be Psychometabolism from Psy War and Telepathy from any list

upho
2015-02-13, 12:28 PM
Okay, note to self: Ban off Discipline Psion lists. I haven't actually got too much experience with DSP Psionics, sadly. I got into DSP content about the time PoW came out, and personally prefer using PoW when I can, so I didn't realize that you could grab a 2 size increase with a third level power.

Okay, so I'm switching Internal Mutant from any power in those disciplines to PsyWar powers in the selected disciplines.These sound like good ideas. However, I guess I'm even less experienced with DSP Psionics than you are, so I can't really tell if there are any other potentially broken/OP combos with other manifestations out there. I'm guessing probably not as badly as with an augmented metamorphosis, though. Also worth noting that metamorphosis is available as an expensive 84k item - Skin of Proteus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/universal-items#TOC-Psychoactive-Skins) - which has ML 7 and thus doesn't allow for both two size increases and two extra attacks at once, so while not quite as bad in terms of causing relatively early level spikes in damage numbers as in Knott's case above, it also has no time or path limitation.

That said, I think the core of the hilarious damage potential primarily comes from (in approximate order of impact relative to other classes):

the natural attack limit only applying to evos. (I mean, Knott doesn't even come close to being affected by that limit despite having 11 claw attacks, his number of evo claws being limited mostly because of the Internal Path having 1 EP/level bound to certain evos.) More specifically, there being no additional limit to the number of natural attacks of one type. This makes the mutant even more of a meat grinder than other natural attack builds with FCT and Pummeling Charge + Horn of the Criosphinx and/or Dragon Ferocity. Either combo is typically simply too full of feat taxes or inaccessible before BAB +12 to be worth considering for natural attack builds unless/until they can do a MoMS monk dip and can stack "enough" attacks of one type into a full attack. And an eidolon would never be able to get the x2 str of Horn of the Criosphinx with natural attacks (which requires monk levels) and wouldn't be able to access Pummeling charge until very late in the game. A Growth Path mutant can instead easily have no less than 5 permanent claw attacks (2 from race and 3 from evos) on a Pummeling Charge, each claw having a 1.5 str bonus and a x3 PA bonus, as early as 4th level! AFAIK, nothing in the game comes even remotely close to this.
tons of bonus feats. We're talking near fighter levels here, which makes it relatively easy to offset even being forced into having natural attacks of different types, should that limitation be introduced.
stacking damage die size increases. A mutant's racial and evo claws can go from 1d4 to 8d6, in a full attack, in 14 levels. (13 mutant levels and 1 monk level: 1d6 monk, 1d8 large, 2d6 huge, 3d6 gargantuan, 4d6 colossal, 6d6 Improved Natural Attack feat, 8d6 Improved Damage evo.) In a real game, the increased reach of the added size categories themselves would of course have a greater impact on the de facto average damage output than on paper, although this is also offset by any pounce or pounce-like (Pummeling Charge) ability the mutant may have.
size evo bonuses, being +6 str, +4 con and +2 NA above those of enlarge person. This is of course primarily a problem limited to levels 13+ for the Growth Path mutant, or 14+ with Mutant Surge for the other paths, and IMO cannot by itself really be considered OP in relation to what an eidolon or, more importantly, a melee druid is capable of. In combination with the above and the ability increase evo though... (In my wrathblood bloodrager archetype, I solved this by simply saying the str and con bonuses gained are half of the listed values and no huge or ability increase evos, although this was primarily because of bloodrage already providing quite a boost to those stats anyway and me aiming for T3.)

My recommendation is, in addition to carefully looking through any manifestations available, to:

limit the total size growth to huge, regardless of source (evos, spells, manifestations, whatever), or maybe to gargantuan in higher levels
decrease especially the str bonus the evos provide
put a hard limit on the total number of natural attacks of one type

This would also have the benefit of reducing the risk of a broken relatively early level BFC build.

upho
2015-02-13, 12:50 PM
I'll note that you need to spend 6pp augmenting the power to nab that increase, which makes the final cost equivalent to a 5th level spell slot, and requires an ML of 9.Oh, I didn't know this. Looking at metamorphosis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metamorphosis), it says:

Power Points 5
/snip/
As minor metamorphosis, except you instead gain one option from enhancement menu B or one option from abilities menu B.
/snip/
Enhancement Menu B
+4 enhancement bonus to Strength
+4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity
+4 enhancement bonus to Constitution
Increase your size by two size categories (+4 size bonus to Strength, -4 size penalty to Dexterity, appropriate size modifiers to AC, CMB, attack rolls, etc). This effect does not stack with other effects that increase your size.
/snip/
Augment You can augment this power in the following ways.

For every 4 power points you spend, you gain one choice from Enhancement Menu B and one choice from Abilities Menu B. You may not choose the same option twice.

(My emphasis.) So my understanding was that straight off the bat, as a 3rd level manifestation costing 5 pp, you can choose two size increases. In order to also get two additional benefits such as +4 dex and two claw/slam/bite attacks, you only need to put in 4 additional pp, for a total of 9 pp, thus limited to a minimum 9 ML. What am I missing here that would make it 6 additional pp (for a total of 11 pp)?

Keledrath
2015-02-13, 05:51 PM
the natural attack limit only applying to evos. (I mean, Knott doesn't even come close to being affected by that limit despite having 11 claw attacks, his number of evo claws being limited mostly because of the Internal Path having 1 EP/level bound to certain evos.) More specifically, there being no additional limit to the number of natural attacks of one type. This makes the mutant even more of a meat grinder than other natural attack builds with FCT and Pummeling Charge + Horn of the Criosphinx and/or Dragon Ferocity. Either combo is typically simply too full of feat taxes or inaccessible before BAB +12 to be worth considering for natural attack builds unless/until they can do a MoMS monk dip and can stack "enough" attacks of one type into a full attack. And an eidolon would never be able to get the x2 str of Horn of the Criosphinx with natural attacks (which requires monk levels) and wouldn't be able to access Pummeling charge until very late in the game. A Growth Path mutant can instead easily have no less than 5 permanent claw attacks (2 from race and 3 from evos) on a Pummeling Charge, each claw having a 1.5 str bonus and a x3 PA bonus, as early as 4th level! AFAIK, nothing in the game comes even remotely close to this.

I was really hoping not to do that, mostly because I hadn't realized how easy it was in PF to pick up natural attacks. Also, Pummeling Charge was seriously bad design, imo. it can f*** right off, especially with the MoMF monk dip as an option.


tons of bonus feats. We're talking near fighter levels here, which makes it relatively easy to offset even being forced into having natural attacks of different types, should that limitation be introduced.

Well, Fighter is a bad class. The only thing it really got was an obscene amount of feats, and then Paizo went and balanced all Feat chains around people having the Fighter's volume of feats. So basic functionality generally requires several feats.


stacking damage die size increases. A mutant's racial and evo claws can go from 1d4 to 8d6, in a full attack, in 14 levels. (13 mutant levels and 1 monk level: 1d6 monk, 1d8 large, 2d6 huge, 3d6 gargantuan, 4d6 colossal, 6d6 Improved Natural Attack feat, 8d6 Improved Damage evo.) In a real game, the increased reach of the added size categories themselves would of course have a greater impact on the de facto average damage output than on paper, although this is also offset by any pounce or pounce-like (Pummeling Charge) ability the mutant may have.

Yeah, I didn't intend to have people going past Huge. And honestly, with it being an actual size increase, I consider that to not be worth the damage. At that point, you are 25x25. That does not work in most combats.


size evo bonuses, being +6 str, +4 con and +2 NA above those of enlarge person. This is of course primarily a problem limited to levels 13+ for the Growth Path mutant, or 14+ with Mutant Surge for the other paths, and IMO cannot by itself really be considered OP in relation to what an eidolon or, more importantly, a melee druid is capable of. In combination with the above and the ability increase evo though... (In my wrathblood bloodrager archetype, I solved this by simply saying the str and con bonuses gained are half of the listed values and no huge or ability increase evos, although this was primarily because of bloodrage already providing quite a boost to those stats anyway and me aiming for T3.)

Well, those just come straight from the Eidolon, so it's nothing that PF hasn't survived before. In fact, they can hit Gargantuan at level 13, since the Summoner can opo Enlarge Person on them (through Share Spells)


limit the total size growth to huge, regardless of source (evos, spells, manifestations, whatever), or maybe to gargantuan in higher levels

Addressed above


decrease especially the str bonus the evos provide

Again, the Mutants numbers aren't going to be worse than the eidolons.


put a hard limit on the total number of natural attacks of one type

Actually, it occurs to me that you have more claws than limbs to put them on.


This would also have the benefit of reducing the risk of a broken relatively early level BFC build.

How are you getting Battlefield Control out of this?

Grod_The_Giant
2015-02-13, 08:49 PM
What am I missing here that would make it 6 additional pp (for a total of 11 pp)?
The fact that I'm used to 3.5 rules, where you'd be using the Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm)power to grow multiple size categories. Disregard everything I just said. :smallredface:

upho
2015-02-13, 10:18 PM
I was really hoping not to do that, mostly because I hadn't realized how easy it was in PF to pick up natural attacks. Also, Pummeling Charge was seriously bad design, imo. it can f*** right off, especially with the MoMF monk dip as an option.Well, I think you're going to have to impose such a limit to keep this from going totally insane. Just keep in mind that three of Knott's claw attacks come from stuff which allow him to repeat attacks gained from other sources (the Broken Blade stance with allows him to make two additional unarmed strikes - claws in this case thanks to FCT - and haste), and those still have real costs attached to them and should not be affected by the limit IMO (just as in the case of an eidolon). It's also worth mentioning that focusing on Pummeling Style in the manner Knotte does mostly means wasting tons of damage potential since you cannot split up the attack among several targets. (Well, wasted unless you actually typically fight enemies of a CR at least equal to APL +11 with ridiculous amounts of HP.)

And yeah, Pummeling Charge is pretty damn awful design. Although I can of course sympathize with the intent of making US monks/brawlers viable, why weren't they satisfied with the quasi-pounce and the Clustered Shot-ish DR bypass effect it grants, ditching the stupid "if one attack roll crits, the whole attack does"? :smallmad: As is, it's a hilariously strong option for virtually any natural attack build besides weird variants like a Vital Strike hippo "barbruid" etc, but even more so for the synth (or mutant). (Could probably be quite devastating on a stalker as well, come to think of it.)


Well, Fighter is a bad class. The only thing it really got was an obscene amount of feats, and then Paizo went and balanced all Feat chains around people having the Fighter's volume of feats. So basic functionality generally requires several feats.Yeah, and the fighter still sucks, because it doesn't have any class features worth mentioning. The mutant, on the other hand, probably has stronger class features than any full BAB Paizo class, even when not considering the feats. Making those bonus feats quite a bit more powerful for the mutant than they are for the poor fighter, as I hope you could see even in my hastily thrown together build. In other words, I actually don't think it's possible to build a synth or any other class which can solo one-shot the Tarrasque at 14th level. I'm not a very good optimizer so I may be wrong here, but I do find it highly unlikely.


Yeah, I didn't intend to have people going past Huge. And honestly, with it being an actual size increase, I consider that to not be worth the damage. At that point, you are 25x25. That does not work in most combats.Agreed. It's not realistic in most situations before very high levels. Though unfortunately, it tends to work in combats versus enemies that are colossal themselves, which most of the epic level "HP-mountains" are. And besides, consider that Knotte could've been a huge sized level 1 monk / level 13 Growth mutie without metamorphosis and probably still be fully capable of making minced meat out of the Tarrasque in one turn. (And if he had prepared the other ingredients, Knotte might even still have enough time to cook Swedish meatballs on the minced meat before it would piece itself back together again. :smalltongue: )


Well, those just come straight from the Eidolon, so it's nothing that PF hasn't survived before. In fact, they can hit Gargantuan at level 13, since the Summoner can opo Enlarge Person on them (through Share Spells)Honestly, I don't find those numbers problematic by themselves, it's just that together with everything else, they can indeed ramp up attack and damage bonuses to quite silly levels. As an example, a barb or bloodrager of the same level gets a +6 str from rage, and they can still easily have amazing damage output numbers. I guess what I'm trying to say is I find it difficult to understand why being able to surpass that bonus and damage potential would somehow make the mutant a more fun addition to the game. The eidolon is again not a very good comparison, as it gains 15 levels when the mutie gains 20 (thus losing out on the increased BAB and additonal feats that comes with it), doesn't get any bonus feats, cannot multiclass except as a synth, and will still probably outclass any full BAB class by Paizo in combat during most levels, besides being (often rightfully) regarded as broken by many players and DMs.

I really hope you want to make the mutant a more playable and balanced addition to the game than the synth because I find the concept awesome, and IMO that includes not allowing it to get str 40+ at level 13.


Actually, it occurs to me that you have more claws than limbs to put them on.Yep! :smalltongue: But metamorphosis says absolutely nothing about needing any additional limbs or not being able to make other attacks in the same turn as the gained natural attacks. I totally think it reeks of old sweaty cheese, that it's most likely not intended, and even that it may be debatable whether it's actually possible or not according to RAW. Still doesn't really matter since getting two additional limbs is just 2 EPs and not much of a problem. And again, more importantly, metamorphosis isn't needed to make an utterly insane damage dealing mutie.


How are you getting Battlefield Control out of this?Just as any eidolon would: first via a reach and grab bite plus Lunge, various grapple feats and Combat Reflexes, then adding the grab ability to all claw and bite attacks at level 13 via the Snatch feat. Makes the eidolon pretty damn effective as an enormous "black hole" when combined with a silly size and the resulting reach and near unbeatable grapple check, especially with feats like Rapid Grappler and Rope Equipment Trick (tie up). That is, until most of the important enemies have Freedom of Movement, of course. A mutie would naturally have a lot easier time getting all related feats and wouldn't have to priotize between them.

upho
2015-02-13, 10:49 PM
The fact that I'm used to 3.5 rules, where you'd be using the Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm)power to grow multiple size categories. Disregard everything I just said. :smallredface:Ah! I was worried I was even more stupid than normally (which does say quite a lot). And if it matters, you can find some comfort in that I would've totally made the same mistake if my 3.5 psionics rules-fu had been any less abysmal than it actually is. :smallsmile:

nysisobli
2015-02-23, 08:22 PM
One thing I have seen so far, is that if I go with the powerful build str option, and reach large size, Im considered huge for damage, however If I went with agile build as well for 3 more ep, I would be considered medium---> huge whichever is more beneficial?

Keledrath
2015-02-23, 08:24 PM
One thing I have seen so far, is that if I go with the powerful build str option, and reach large size, Im considered huge for damage, however If I went with agile build as well for 3 more ep, I would be considered medium---> huge whichever is more beneficial?

Yes. Combining Powerful and Agile Build means that your form is a bit more fluid, able to be both bulky and nimble almost simultaneously..

khadgar567
2015-02-24, 12:28 PM
hello every one I just find a small cheat for metamorphosis in old 3.5 cronomancy book 24 hours spell
if I remember and read corectly spell gives you 1 day worth of rest aka free one turn full customize chance

this spell greatly accelerates time for single creature.It an instant,the creature experiances (aka fully re chooses his mutations and evolutions)single day worth of rest including hit point recovery, ability damage repair, etc(in this case brand new form in this class with out metamorphosis class future

as by product creature ages one day
spells and other external features with fixed time not effects but poisons, diseases and other internal forces process if day passed.
IF 24 hours cast on bleeding individual for example this spell would kill him.
for reasons not properly understand even by cronomancers this spell not allow spell caster to prepare spellsafter it cast
material component broken hourglass
http://linuxdigital.net/img/DnD-3.5/Supplements/Magic/Encyclopaedia%20Arcane/Chronomancy%20-%20The%20Power%20of%20Time.pdf

Keledrath
2015-02-24, 12:31 PM
Well, that's great, except for a few things
1. It's 3.5, so it's irrelevant to the discussion of a PF class.
2. It's third party, so it's not even really relevant to the discussion of a 3.5 class
and
3. It's third party related to messing with time. Which almost guarantees it's horribly imbalanced to begin with.

khadgar567
2015-02-24, 12:47 PM
Well, that's great, except for a few things
1. It's 3.5, so it's irrelevant to the discussion of a PF class.
2. It's third party, so it's not even really relevant to the discussion of a 3.5 class
and
3. It's third party related to messing with time. Which almost guarantees it's horribly imbalanced to begin with.
that's the DM's problem if he is bold enough to add that in his game I just humbly suggest that idea.

Keledrath
2015-02-25, 02:06 PM
In relevant news, updated a few things

1. Officially restricted the natural attacks to all around, not just ones from the class
2. Internals now pull from the PsyWar list for Psychometabolism and the Psion/Wilder list for Telepathy. Might add Psychokinesis from Psion/Wilder for people who want to evolve to have elemental control.
3. Limited the second instance of both size change evolutions to the path that matches with them (Growth to Large, Nimble to Small)
4. Added text for the Mutational Defense ability.




that's the DM's problem if he is bold enough to add that in his game I just humbly suggest that idea.

Well, given that there is a third party book out there that allows you to get the Tarrasque's regeneration for +2 LA, it isn't constructive at all to point out that a third party source has something that lets you break the game. It's impossible to balance around everything.

khadgar567
2015-02-25, 02:12 PM
In relevant news, updated a few things

Well, given that there is a third party book out there that allows you to get the Tarrasque's regeneration for +2 LA, it isn't constructive at all to point out that a third party source has something that lets you break the game. It's impossible to balance around everything.

well you said it you cant balance something for every situation perfection is big G's domain from first level to end of epic twentieth level

Almarck
2015-02-25, 02:47 PM
well you said it you cant balance something for every situation perfection is big G's domain from first level to end of epic twentieth level

Kele is talking about the majority of situations that actually matter: "current edition Pathfinder, no backporting from 3.5, only mainstream third party on the PFSRD if any 3rd party at all, no test or beta classes, minimal house rules by the book game". It may seem very specific, but it's the kinda the ideal situation for many PF players to run a game like this. It's impossible to factor every conceivable thing. The goal is to be playable with what most people are going to run, not what 1 group in a thousand is going to run.

Your situation breaks 2 of those things. It's 3.5, meaning it wasn't designed with PF in mind and therefore its materials may interact poorly or are otherwise replaced. It's 3rd party, most GMs don't run that kind of thing. Those that do typically go for more mainstream and quality productions such as what Dreamscarred Press or Radiance House writes if they run any at all.
The situation you propose is simply too irrelevant.

khadgar567
2015-02-26, 05:14 AM
Kele is talking about the majority of situations that actually matter: "current edition Pathfinder, no backporting from 3.5, only mainstream third party on the PFSRD if any 3rd party at all, no test or beta classes, minimal house rules by the book game". It may seem very specific, but it's the kinda the ideal situation for many PF players to run a game like this. It's impossible to factor every conceivable thing. The goal is to be playable with what most people are going to run, not what 1 group in a thousand is going to run.

Your situation breaks 2 of those things. It's 3.5, meaning it wasn't designed with PF in mind and therefore its materials may interact poorly or are otherwise replaced. It's 3rd party, most GMs don't run that kind of thing. Those that do typically go for more mainstream and quality productions such as what Dreamscarred Press or Radiance House writes if they run any at all.
The situation you propose is simply too irrelevant.
well I just saw some cheese able situation but as far as I can see thats not gonna problem on pathfinder side ( I play my first and only dame with idiot dm in 3.5 so Hello absulute noob here dont take seriously)

Keledrath
2015-03-11, 08:34 AM
Okay, small update: Deceptive Build now has 3 levels.
Basic is Bruce Banner to Hulk: You can look the way you would if you weren't a Mutant. Requires a move action to exit and suppresses your mutations.
Advanced give you Disguise Self. Now you are Mystique.
Master is only available to Internal Mutants, and gives you Ex Alter Self at will on top of disguise self.

khadgar567
2015-03-11, 10:40 AM
Okay, small update: Deceptive Build now has 3 levels.
Basic is Bruce Banner to Hulk: You can look the way you would if you weren't a Mutant. Requires a move action to exit and suppresses your mutations.
Advanced give you Disguise Self. Now you are Mystique.
Master is only available to Internal Mutants, and gives you Ex Alter Self at will on top of disguise self.

a small suggestion maybe late game you gain ability to hulk out as swift action ( since banner knows how to let the hulk out in current comics) also love the deceptive build

Keledrath
2015-03-14, 01:24 PM
a small suggestion maybe late game you gain ability to hulk out as swift action ( since banner knows how to let the hulk out in current comics) also love the deceptive build

I'd be more inclined to make it similar to drawing a weapon (can be piggybacked onto another move action)

Rosstin
2015-03-14, 02:00 PM
+1 would play

upho
2015-03-20, 09:35 PM
Oooh! This seems to be shaping up nicely! Do I get to keep my ton of Kele-Dough if I remove the toxic waste from the old one and add the new fun colors to it, so it adheres to the new rules? Pretty please? I promise I'll try not to turn it into something as silly as that first mess I made... :smalltongue:

On a more serious note, which power level, if any, did you have in mind for the mutant? Should it be comparable to a wizard, a synth or a PoW class, for example?

Keledrath
2015-03-20, 09:56 PM
The first part of that made very little sense to my sleepy brain, and will therefore be ignored.

The second part can be answered: It's meant to be about on par with PoW classes, particularly the Warder or Harbinger (imo the best designed of them). It's nowhere near Wizard levels of power ceiling, but has a solidly high floor.

JHShadon
2015-03-27, 07:37 AM
I like the look of this class and I hope I get the chance to play it someday, I also have a couple suggestions; For one it might be a good idea to make a little description for Bonus Feats in the class features list for completeness sake and so people who don't read the table don't miss it. Also have you thought about making a feat for extra surge rounds? Maybe an extra four rounds?

And as a final note, here's the character this class brings to my mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fe5Hv_v85U :smallbiggrin:

Keledrath
2015-03-27, 07:52 AM
I missed that I didn't have that.

As far as feats, I am considering that. I might go for 3 rounds instead. Extra Rage is 6, and Mutant Surge is, I feel, much stronger than Rage (Out of Combat utility)

Hm...Add Psychokinesis, and Frieza could actually be represented pretty well by an Internal Mutant.

JHShadon
2015-03-27, 08:34 PM
Yea, 3 sounds good. Also if you're looking for something to fill the empty space in the sixth level perhaps you could add a bonus to saves against polymorph or transmutation effects to reflect the mutant's mastery of his own form.

upho
2015-04-01, 08:51 AM
The first part of that made very little sense to my sleepy brain, and will therefore be ignored.Heh, what I meant was basically: "May I please have a go at making a broken mutie build using your current updated class rules?". But since I took for granted your answer would be something along the lines of "Well, if you must... *sighs*" :smallwink:, I've already taken the liberty of putting together a growth path grappling BFC build:


Gargantuan demon-spawn tiefling growth mutant 13 / MoMS monk 1
claws alternate racial trait

Evolutions
Evos 21 EP Ability Increase (Dex) x2, Bite, Claws, Constrict, Huge, Improved Natural Armor, Powerful Build, Reach (bite), Trip
Mutant Surge 4 EP Flight (magic) 30 ft.

4 dex, 10 huge, 1 bite, 1 claws, 1 reach, 2 Constrict

Relevant Gear
+3 Dueling Amulet of Mighty Fists, +1 Mithral Brawling Chain Shirt, Dueling Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver, +2 Anaconda's Coils Belt of Incredible Dexterity, Juggernaut’s Pauldrons, Opalescent white pyramid in Wayfinder (WF claws)
Total cost: approx. 150,000 gp (of expected 185,000 gp)

Stats 20 PB
Str 40 16 base, +2 racial, +2 level, +2 belt, +16 size huge evo, +2 size gargantuan pauldrons
Dex 16 15 base, +1 level, +2 belt, +4 ability evo, -4 size huge evo, -2 size gargantuan pauldrons
Con 20 12 base, +8 huge evo
Int 8 10 base, -2 racial
Wis 10 10 base
Cha 12 10 base, +2 racial

Feats
1 Combat Reflexes Growth Path Bonus Power Attack
2 MoMS Monk 1 Bonus IUS, Snapping Turtle Style
3 Improved Grapple; Bonus Equipment Trick (rope)
5 Final Embrace
6 Bonus Greater Grapple
7 Bludgeoner
9 Enforcer; Bonus Intimidating Prowess
10 Bonus Snapping Turtle Clutch
11 Soulless Gaze (Damnation)
12 Bonus Soulless Gaze (Damnation)
13 Rapid Grappler

Attack and CMB
4 Claw Attacks, 1 Bite Attack +35 (bite +34) +13 bab, +15 str, +5 weapon training (incl. +2 bonus of gauntlets), +1 WF, +4 grapple feats, +3 DAoMF, +2 armor, -8 size
Trip (free on bite hit) CMB +52 +13 bab, +15 str, +5 weapon training (incl. +2 bonus of gauntlets), +3 enhancement DAoMF, +6 luck DAoMF, +2 armor, +8 size
Grapple (free on hit) CMB +57 (bite +34) +13 bab, +15 str, +5 weapon training (incl. +2 bonus of gauntlets), +4 grab, +1 WF, +4 grapple feats, +3 DAoMF, +2 armor, +2 competence belt, +2 gauntlets, +8 size

Demoralize (free on dealing damage) +34 (+38 vs. smaller target), stacking effect (Soulless Gaze) +13 ranks, +3 class skill, +15 str, +1 cha, +2 feat



Ok, so Graberration basically always hits a typical CR 20 enemy and definitely trips, grabs and demoralizes it (with increasingly worse fear effects each time it deals damage)... :smalleek:
Granted, this build won't be nearly as effective vs. a flying enemy with Freedom of Movement and/or fear immunity, but for example a balor is pretty damn screwed if it doesn't win initiative and dominates Graberration in the first round. Not as horribly broken as one-shot-murdering the tarrasque twice in one charge, but still far from acceptable, IMO. And I see it's still fully possible to build an absolutely absurd meat grinder mutie, despite the limit on natural attacks (I'll post build details if you like me to). As before, I believe the main culprits are too many bonus feats and too large size evo bonuses.


The second part can be answered: It's meant to be about on par with PoW classes, particularly the Warder or Harbinger (imo the best designed of them). It's nowhere near Wizard levels of power ceiling, but has a solidly high floor.So a combat focused martial T3, basically? Sweet, that's exactly where I've been hoping this will end up. Think it's still quite a bit above that power level though.

Keledrath
2015-04-01, 08:58 AM
...How are you getting metamorphosis on that? You're using Growth, which doesn't get any manifesting, and Internal doesn't get access to Metamorphosis anymore.

Also, I've officially reached the conclusion that MoMS is BS. Like, half of the broken damage builds I've seen for PF involve using it.

upho
2015-04-01, 04:25 PM
...How are you getting metamorphosis on that? You're using Growth, which doesn't get any manifesting, and Internal doesn't get access to Metamorphosis anymore.What manifesting? Oooops! :smallredface: For some reason I thought it would be a good idea to forget about deleting those two lines when I copied from my old post... Sorry. Fixed.


Also, I've officially reached the conclusion that MoMS is BS. Like, half of the broken damage builds I've seen for PF involve using it.Yeah, true dat. But in most (not broken) cases I believe it's simply because a MoMS dip is the least sucky or only way of actually making style feats and the concept depending on them viable at all. A lot of perfectly balanced mechanics are just not worth it or flat out impossible without the dip and the unique "use two styles simultaneously" benefit. AFAIK, the typical "broken" MoMS dip builds you'll find are a lot more specific though, typically focusing on charge stuff (often 2 level dips for Dragon and/or Boar Style and now of course Pummeling Style) combined with synths, beast barbs and/or wildshape melee druids. And the "Graberration" above doesn't actually belong to any of these categories, since it doesn't need to bypass style feat requirements (those are very low in this case), or two simultaneously active styles, or actually any style feat at all to be broken. It's simply that 1 level monk gives "free" IUS (and a damage die increase), and with a bonus style feat and silly high attack bonus despite the loss of full bab, I think it adds up to slightly more bang for the buck than dipping fighter, for example. Most importantly, the Graberration would still be broken if going 13 levels straight mutant. It might not have enough feats to be quite as over-the-top demoralizing scary, or quite as many triggers for extra grabbing AoOs, but these are just extra bling on a core already overly pimped out with size increases and more than enough bonus feats. The balor is still destined to become tied up and unable to cast spells basically within a round of first entering the Graberration's melee reach.

And then there's of course also the alternative less feat intensive intimidating meat grinder growth mutie build, which I guess would be able to easily one-shot the balor by level 14. Perhaps you can put together a similarly broken Paizo build based on a synth a few levels higher, but having the potential to be "only" a bit more broken than the synth is IMO hardly a sign of good balance, rather the opposite.

khadgar567
2015-04-05, 01:13 PM
( stoles some non toxic Kele-dough from upho) okay let me mold this into some thing sense able mutant
lady's and gentlemen let me introduce you immortal lion( insert name ).
level 20

race lion( if apply able dire)
evolution's
powerful build 2
improved natural damage 1 claws
improved natural damage 1 bite
improved natural armor 1
energy immunity 10 all types
fast healing 10 aka fast healing five
feats
extra evolution ( speech( just gives ability to talk(home brew) cost unknown))
well it may be not dealing heavy damage but this little ***** has regeneration worth of a troll and immune to any energy type

Keledrath
2015-04-05, 01:30 PM
race lion( if apply able dire)
evolution's
powerful build 2
improved natural damage 1 claws
improved natural damage 1 bite
improved natural armor 1
energy immunity 10 all types
fast healing 10 aka fast healing five
feats
extra evolution ( speech( just gives ability to talk(home brew) cost unknown))
well it may be not dealing heavy damage but this little ***** has regeneration worth of a troll and immune to any energy type

Okay... a few problems
1. Lions aren't legal choices for Player characters
2. Fast Healing is 1 for every 4 points, capping at 5
3. Fast Healing != Regeneration. You still die when you hit -Con or get hit by a death effect
4. This isn't a build.

khadgar567
2015-04-05, 02:01 PM
Okay... a few problems
1. Lions aren't legal choices for Player characters
2. Fast Healing is 1 for every 4 points, capping at 5
3. Fast Healing != Regeneration. You still die when you hit -Con or get hit by a death effect
4. This isn't a build.
well it end up toxic( well noob alert to do el mundo) thanks for mistake reports

upho
2015-04-07, 12:00 AM
Pummeling Charge was seriously bad design, imo. it can f*** right off, especially with the MoMF monk dip as an option.

Also, I've officially reached the conclusion that MoMS is BS. Like, half of the broken damage builds I've seen for PF involve using it.In the spirit of the above quotes, and in order to more easily pinpoint any specific broken/OP class elements, I've put together what I hope is a more realistic single-class Growth Path debuffer/damage dealer - "Terrorclaw":


Gargantuan oni-spawn tiefling growth mutant 14
claws alternate racial trait

Evolutions
Evos 23 EP Ability Increase (Dex), Claws x2, Flight (poor) 30 ft., Huge, Improved Natural Armor, Limbs (arms), Pounce, Powerful Build, Skilled (Perception)
Mutant Surge 4 EP Improved Damage (claws), Rend, Skilled (Fly)

Relevant Gear
+3 Cruel Amulet of Mighty Fists, +4 Belt of Thunderous Charging, Juggernaut’s Pauldrons, Boots of Speed
Total cost: approx. 138,000 gp (of expected 185,000 gp)

Stats 20 PB
Str 42 16 base, +2 racial, +2 level, +4 belt, +16 size huge evo, +2 size gargantuan pauldrons
Dex 12 15 base, +1 level, +2 ability evo, -4 size huge evo, -2 size gargantuan pauldrons
Con 22 14 base, +8 huge evo
Int 10 10 base
Wis 14 12 base, +2 racial
Cha 5 7 base, -2 racial

Feats
1 Intimidating Prowess Growth Path Bonus Power Attack
2 Bonus Martial Training I (Strength of Hell)
3 Martial Training I (Broken Blade X)
5 Martial Training II (Broken Blade X); Bonus Martial Training II (Black Seraph's Glare, Intimidating Force)
7 Martial Training III (Broken Blade Stance)
8 Bonus Cornugon Smash
9 Black Seraph Style
11 Black Seraph’s Malevolence; Bonus Black Seraph Annihilation
13 Soulless Gaze
14 Bonus Fiendskin (resist 10 fire)

120 ft. Flying Power Attack Pounce in Broken Blade Stance
9 Claw Attacks (2 racial, 4 evo (arms, feet), 2 stance, 1 haste) +32 +14 bab, +16 str, +3 weapon training, +3 CAoMF, +2 charge, +1 haste, -4 PA, -3 size
Damage 8d6+32 (60) / x2 (120); plus rend 8d6+40 (68) +16 str, +3 weapon training, +2 broken blade bonus, +3 CAoMF, +8 PA
Demoralize (when dealing damage) +36 (+32 vs. colossal), stacking fear effects, sickened if frightened +14 ranks, +3 class skill, -3 cha, +16 str, +2 soulless gaze, +4 vs. smaller size



If Terrorclaw pounces a balor, his first claw attack has a 15% miss chance, 80.5% hit chance, and a 4.5% chance of scoring a crit. Which would result in an average damage of about 54 (48.3 (0.805 x 60), + 5.4 (0.045 x 120)). As Terroclaw makes 9 claw attacks, giving him a near 100% chance of rending, the resulting 551 total average damage would be a lot more than needed to one-shot the balor (370 HP).

More importantly, each claw attack has an 85% chance of demoralizing the balor (85% chance of dealing damage, 100% chance of demoralizing (+36 vs. DC 37)). Which, for example, means the first two claw attacks has about a 72% average probability of rendering the balor frightened (Cornugon Smash, Soulless Gaze) and sickened (cruel weapon ability), giving the balor a –4 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks, and a -2 penalty on all weapon damage rolls. So if Terrorclaw would be able to attack two balors with his pounce, he has a more than decent chance of taking them both out of the combat in one turn (making them either sickened and panicked, or dead).

Even though the above numbers require one or two turns of prep time, the use of somewhat limited abilities and enough room for the gargantuan size, I believe the average damage output alone is much higher than that of any T3 class build of the same level, and still way higher than what the mutant should be capable of in order to be considered balanced to for example the PoW classes. And while Terrorclaw probably isn't the best approximation of the most typical striker-y debuffer mutant build to be expected in an actual game, I'm guessing the modestly optimized attack bonus and damage is a good representation of what a reasonably competent player would build.

In addition, Terrorclaw's debuffing capacity is even more unbalanced IMO - the many accurate attacks, high Intimidation bonus and the numerous related feats making it near certain that no enemy below say CR 22 (that Terrorclaw can make a full attack against) will avoid becoming at least frightened and sickened, and more likely panicked. In a battle against enemies of a more typical CR (say 16-18), which would be really challenging for PoW class builds, I believe each of Terrorclaw's turns can basically be expected to result in all enemies within the reach of Terroclaw's charge/claws being incapacitated.

In short, I don't think the limit on natural attacks is nearly enough. IMO, the mutant still needs to be tamed through less bonus feats, less easily available strength and size increases, and maybe also less evolution points.

EDIT: Removed a bonus feat (Impr. Init.) that shouldn't have been there and fixed a few numbers that were a bit off. Nothing that meaningfully changes the damage output or debuffing capacity.

upho
2015-04-07, 10:38 PM
I've put together the same Terrorclaw build but with three new nerfs - halved ability bonuses from size evos, no free powerful build evo, and two bonus feats less (at 4th, 8th and 12th level):


Gargantuan oni-spawn tiefling growth mutant 14
claws alternate racial trait

Evolutions
Evos 23 EP Ability Increase (Dex), Claws x2, Flight (poor) 30 ft., Huge, Improved Natural Armor, Limbs (arms), Pounce, Skilled (Perception)
Mutant Surge 4 EP Improved Damage (claws), Rend, Skilled (Fly)

Relevant Gear
+3 Cruel Amulet of Mighty Fists, +4 Belt of Thunderous Charging, Juggernaut’s Pauldrons, Boots of Speed
Total cost: approx. 138,000 gp (of expected 185,000 gp)

Stats 20 PB
Str 34 16 base, +2 racial, +2 level, +4 belt, +8 size huge evo, +2 size gargantuan pauldrons
Dex 12 15 base, +1 level, +2 ability evo, -4 size huge evo, -2 size gargantuan pauldrons
Con 18 14 base, +4 huge evo
Int 10 10 base
Wis 14 12 base, +2 racial
Cha 5 7 base, -2 racial

Feats
1 Intimidating Prowess Growth Path Bonus Power Attack
3 Martial Training I (Broken Blade X)
4 Bonus Martial Training I (Strength of Hell)
5 Martial Training II (Broken Blade X)
7 Martial Training III (Broken Blade Stance)
8 Bonus Cornugon Smash
9 Martial Training II (Black Seraph's Glare, Intimidating Force)
11 Black Seraph
12 Bonus Black Seraph’s Malevolence
13 Black Seraph Annihilation

120 ft. Flying Power Attack Pounce in Broken Blade Stance
9 Claw Attacks (2 racial, 4 evo (arms, feet), 2 stance, 1 haste) +28 +14 bab, +12 str, +3 weapon training, +3 CAoMF, +2 charge, +1 haste, -4 PA, -3 size
Damage 6d6+28 (49) / x2 (98); plus rend 6d6+34 (55), and sickened if fearing +12 str, +3 weapon training, +2 broken blade bonus, +3 CAoMF, +8 PA
Demoralize (when dealing damage) +30 (+26 vs. colossal) +14 ranks, +3 class skill, -3 cha, +12 str, +4 vs. smaller size



If this Terrorclaw version pounces a balor, his claw attacks has a 35% miss chance, a 60.5% hit chance, and a 4.5% chance of scoring a crit. Which would result in an average damage of about 34 (29.6 (0.605 x 49), + 4.4 (0.045 x 98)). So 9 claw attacks and a rend results in 361 total average damage, which is 190 points (34%) less than the previous version and 9 points short of killing the balor. Still pretty damn impressive though.

Each claw attack of this Terrorclaw has an 45,5% chance of demoralizing the balor (65% chance of dealing damage, 70% chance of demoralizing (+30 vs. DC 37)), so the previous version's 85% chance has decreased by more than 46%. The first two claw attacks has about a 21% average probability of rendering the balor shaken and sickened, rather than a 72% probability of frightened and sickened. Besides the reduced damage output and lack of stacking fear effects, this version also lacks the previous version's fire resistance (no Fiend Skin feat), a kinda good ability to have when fighting a balor in melee. The lower Con also means it has 2 Fortitude less and that it can "only" take 170 points of damage before dying (16% less than the previous version's 202). So, at least on paper, this version would find one balor challenging and is highly unlikely to beat two balors, something the previous version actually had a decent chance of pulling off.

So, I think the relevant questions are: 1) would the above changes be enough to rein in the growth mutant, and 2) whether those changes would nerf the other paths too much. Personally, I'm a bit hesitant to answer those questions before I've checked out comparable builds of other classes and the other mutant paths, but I guess my answers would be: 1) "just barely", and 2) "no, the other paths will do fine".

@Keledrath and everybody else: What do you think about the above nerf suggestions?

upho
2015-04-08, 06:35 PM
For comparisons, here's a same-level bloodrager build with a similar focus, sharing many options with the above two builds (also without monk dips or Pummeling Style):


Large demon-spawn tiefling crossblooded (abyssal/arcane) primalist rageshaper bloodrager 14
maw alternate racial trait

Bloodline and Rage Powers
Abyssal Abyssal Claws, Abyssal Bloodrage
Arcane Greater Arcane Bloodrage
Rage Powers Superstition, Witch Hunter

Active Spells
Fly, Greater Heroism (through Boots), Haste (through Greater Arcane Bloodrage), Monstrous Physique II (Tikbalang), Resist Energy (10 fire, through Greater Bloodrage)

Relevant Gear
+2 Furious Courageous Amulet of Mighty Fists, +4 Belt of Thunderous Charging, Helm of the Mammoth Lord, +4 Headband (wis), Boots of the Battle Herald
Total cost: approx. 141,000 gp (of expected 185,000 gp)

Stats 20 PB
Str 38 16 base, +2 racial, +2 level, +6 rage, +2 abyssal bloodrage, +2 courageous, +4 belt, +4 size large
Dex 12 13 base, +1 level, -2 size large
Con 24 14 base, +6 rage, +2 raging vitality, +2 courageous
Int 8 10 base, -2 racial
Wis 14 10 base, +4 headband
Cha 14 12 base, +2 racial

Feats
1 Power Attack
3 Martial Training I (Broken Blade X)
5 Martial Training II (Broken Blade X)
6 Bonus Intimidating Prowess
7 Cornugon Smash
9 Martial Training III (Broken Blade Stance); Bonus Iron Will
11 Raging Vitality
12 Bonus Improved Initiative
13 Improved Natural Attack (Claws)

140 ft. Flying Power Attack Pounce in Broken Blade Stance
5 Claws (2 abyssal claws, 2 stance, 1 haste), Bite (monstrous physique), Gore (helm) +36 +14 bab, +14 str, +4 FCAoMF, +2 charge, +1 haste, +6 heroism boots (incl. +2 courageous), -4 PA, -1 size
2 Hooves (monstrous physique) +31 +14 bab, +14 str, +4 FCAoMF, +2 charge, +1 haste, +6 heroism boots (incl. +2 courageous), -5 secondary, -4 PA, -1 size
Claw Damage 6d6+32 (53) / x2 (106) +14 str, +2 broken blade bonus, +4 witch hunter, +4 FCAoMF, +8 PA
Bite Damage 3d6+32 (42.5) / x2 (85) +14 str, +2 broken blade bonus, +4 witch hunter, +4 FCAoMF, +8 PA
Gore Damage 2d6+32 (39) / x2 (78) +14 str, +2 broken blade bonus, +4 witch hunter, +4 FCAoMF, +8 PA
Hoof Damage 3d6+25 (35.5) / x2 (71) +7 str, +2 broken blade bonus, +4 witch hunter, +4 FCAoMF, +4 PA
Demoralize (when dealing damage) +35 (+39 vs. large) +14 ranks, +3 class skill, +2 cha, +14 str, +6 heroism boots (incl. +2 courageous), -4 vs. larger size



If Terrorblood pounces a balor, his claw, bite and gore attacks has a 5% miss chance, a 90% hit chance, and a 5% chance of scoring a crit. Which would result in an average damage of about 53 from each claw (48 (0.9 x 53), + 5.3 (0.05 x 106)), 42 from the bite (38 (0.9 x 42.5), + 4.2 (0.05 x 85)), and 39 from the gore (35 (0.9 x 39), + 3.9 (0.05 x 78)). His two secondary hoof attacks have a 76% hit and 4% crit chance, averaging a damage output of 30 per hoof (27 (0.76 x 35.5), + 2.8 (0.04 x 71)). So all 9 attacks results in 406 total average damage, which is 45 points (10%) more than the nerfed Terrorclaw in my previous post, and more than enough to kill the balor.

The problem is that Terrorblood can reach this level of offensive power only during a few minutes per day when using his 1/day 4th level spell slot for monstrous physique II. At other times, he has less strength, no pounce, a weaker bite and no hoof attacks, and can never access the size benefits the Terrorclaws enjoy (reach, CMB/D bonuses etc). All things considered, I think the bloodrager is generally a weaker damage dealer, and more dependent on prep-time and items, than the nerfed mutant (albeit with a greater damage "spike" potential during 1 combat/day), and he's very far behind the original non-nerfed mutant build. And Terrorblood would also pay more for the typical natural attacker feats and monk dips, but not benefit nearly as much from them as the nerfed Terrorclaw would, the mutant build having more numerous, less restricted, feat slots, and the ability to basically stick to one specific type of natural attack (no need for multiple Improved Natural Attack, WF or FCT feats, for example).

Each claw attack of Terrorblood has an 90,3% chance of demoralizing the balor (95% chance of dealing damage, 95% chance of demoralizing (+30 vs. DC 37)), a lot better than the low charisma Terrorclaw builds. Unfortunately, Terrorblood has no feat slots to spare for the stacking fear effects of the original Terrorclaw, much less the Black Seraph Style feats to intimidate any creature. Which means he's a lot weaker in the debuffing department, and becoming increasingly so the more levels are gained since the ratio of enemies immune to fear and/or mind affecting effects tend to grow exponentially in most higher level games. Terrorblood also lacks the relatively strong Will save of Terrorclaw, but has a bit better defensive abilities overall with his higher AC, Fort and HP, on top of access to additional defenses from spells such as heroism, shield and energy resistance.

Barring perhaps some kind of mounted build, combining this type of bloodrager with FCT, Horn of the Criosphinx, and a MoMS monk dip (Pummeling and Dragon style), results in what is probably one of the most, if not THE most, effective and flexible melee damage dealer you can make using a full bab Paizo class, likely able to surpass even initiators in terms of actual raw DPR. As the nerfed growth path mutant seems to be capable of being a bit more powerful, I think I'll stick to my previous "just barely" answer to my first question above.

Keledrath
2015-04-13, 06:44 PM
Alright, I've been trying to find the best way to explain why I will not be implementing these nerfs, and I think I've found the relevant bit of design philosophy.


All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.

I am in agreement here. Yes, you can throw all of these feats, plus your normal feats, plus your evolutions, into making something that does BS amounts of damage. Absolutely NOTHING has changed here from regular PF.

Why I won't be removing/limiting the Bonus Feats: I want people to have plenty of feats to deal with Pathfinder's absurdly chain heavy feat system. I want people to be able to take the fun feats. Things like racial feats. The feats that, while fun and full of flavor, SUCK. If your class provides enough feats for you to achieve functionality, then it frees your normal feat slots up to take things that are interesting.

Why I won't be reducing Evolution Points: These are the entire point of the class. Not restricting these. They are exactly where they belong.

Why I won't be removing Powerful Build from Growth: Each Path, at level 1, gets one of their defining evolutions. Growth starts to Hulk out. Nimble becomes more agile and speedy. Internal becomes a supernatural entity.

Hanuman
2015-04-22, 08:47 PM
I've been working on something similar to what you want, the Ozodrin has always kind of been within those lines.

Right now the offline team is working on making ozodrin 3.0 (Pathfinder), which is shaping up to be the perfect representation of what you'd want (highly cleaned up, very elegant shapeshifting class).
Let me know if you're interested and we can talk more about it.