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Scorpina
2007-04-06, 09:07 AM
I had a discussion in a bar about critical hits last night (because I'm that much of a nerd). And a difference of opinion cropped up: One of my friends is of thinks that a critical hit represents outrageously good fortune; obviously this is true for the player but he thinks it applies to the character as well, so that when Dave the Level 13 Fighter scores a critical on a minotaur it means that he was lucky enough to do a serious amount of damage by some fluke.

My other friend, however, is of the exact opposite opinion. She thinks that when Dave the Level 13 Fighter scores a critical hit on a minotaur it's because he's just that damn awesome and, as a level 13 fighter with Weapon Focus and what-have-you, he really really knows how to use his Longsword +2 to great effect. Luck, from an IC perspective, has nothing to do with it.

Despite having listened to them argue about it for a while, I'm undecided.

Thoughts?

Zincorium
2007-04-06, 09:14 AM
The fact that certain weapons, enchantments, and feats improve critical range pretty much completely debunks the luck theory for me.

No weapon, with the exception of a luck blade, is inherently more lucky than another, but they do have different crit ranges. Nor does a 'Keen' edge of some sort make you more likely to get in an improbable shot, and the improved critical feat is specifically about training. Also remember that being good with a weapon means you are very much more likely to confirm said critical.

Everything points to skill, nothing points to luck. That makes up my mind pretty well.

Holocron Coder
2007-04-06, 09:33 AM
Actually, the entire d20 roll makes up a "luck" portion.

I believe it is a combination of the two. A keen edge allows for a better chance to cut more deeply, etc. It's going to be easier to do more damage with a sharp axe than a blunt one. That given, Improved Critical feat implies training in using your weapon to your advantage in dealing damage.

So, both. If it was completely dependent on skill, any hit by a skilled fighter would be a critical. As it stands, you have noncrit hits.

brian c
2007-04-06, 09:37 AM
A critical hit means that you hit your opponent in a certain part of their body that does more damage, like a pressure point or a major artery. Slashing weapons have a higher crit range than bludgeoning because it's easier to open up an artery with something that can cut the skin rather than just bruise it; if you're hitting with a mace then your best crit is probably in your opponents head, whereas a sword will do a lot more damage with a hit to the neck. Improved Critical means that you're better at hitting weak spots with that weapon, and Keen means that the weapon itself is sharper than normal which means more crits.

At the same time, rolling a 20 is luck; no feat or special ability (besides being a major deity) will increase your chance of rolling a 20. It's reasonable to say that a critical is not just a hit in a certain lace, but an extra-hard hit in a certain place, or a hit that (luckily) manages to disable an opponent in a way that is not guaranteed (breaking their arm or something). Rolling well means you hit a critical spot, confirming means you hit it hard enough to do more damage. So critical hits are part luck, part skill.

Yvian
2007-04-06, 09:44 AM
It's more about luck than skill.

Critial hits require a natural 20 - all luck there. You can modify that luck with your choice of weapon [Rapier over Great Axe] or magic [Keen Edge], but it still comes down to how luck you are with the die roll.

On the other hand, it is nice to be 13th level fighter. They have [or should have] power attack. Remember that a critical hits does muliple the power attack - and makes it a lot more painful.

This just happened to me last night. A wizard cast confustion on the Barbairan Henchmen, who took out the party's cleric with one blow. It was luckly and devestating. That one hit did a lot more damage then our rouge - who always crits with his rapier, but never does devestating damage with it. [Unless flanked - but that is another story.]

Fax Celestis
2007-04-06, 09:59 AM
One must remember that while the die is a measure of luck for the player, it's actually a measure of skill for the opponent.

"What?" I can hear you saying that already.

Really, the d20 roll in a combat situation represents your opponent's ability to avoid, evade, parry, soak, or otherwise negate your attacks. Your BAB--and to a lesser extent, your feat choices--represents how well you swing your sword. Your strength score represents how hard. Your opponent's Armor Class determines if you strike or not. The weapon's properties determine how effective it is. So what's left in the combat equation? Your opponent's skill in negating blows that have already struck.

That would make a critical not only an exceptional strike on the part of the PC, but an exceptional failure on the part of the opponent to dodge.

Indon
2007-04-06, 10:03 AM
I view it more like; rolling a 20 represents your opponent giving you an opporunity to make a critical hit (i.e. luck). Confirming the roll represents your character taking advantage (i.e. skill).

elliott20
2007-04-06, 10:05 AM
because of the way critical hits are set up in the game, crits are for the most part, luck. while the confirmation of a crit is more skill than luck, the initiation of that is all luck due to the fact that you can't really modify or better your chances are getting a crit. (Short of a single "improv crit" feat.)

brian c
2007-04-06, 11:14 AM
because of the way critical hits are set up in the game, crits are for the most part, luck. while the confirmation of a crit is more skill than luck, the initiation of that is all luck due to the fact that you can't really modify or better your chances are getting a crit. (Short of a single "improv crit" feat.)

Or getting a keen weapon, or getting a weapon with a bigger crit range. I don't think you can fully explain critical hits without including both luck and skill.

the_tick_rules
2007-04-06, 11:18 AM
hmm, i guess it's a combo of the two really. the dice always brings a luck factor, but the feats and stuff are your characters skill.

elliott20
2007-04-06, 12:24 PM
Or getting a keen weapon, or getting a weapon with a bigger crit range. I don't think you can fully explain critical hits without including both luck and skill.
well yes, obviously both of those things are going to count for it. But the thing is, getting a keen weapon or getting a weapon with a big crit range is not a skill issue. That's just a choice.

Not matter how good you get with a weapon, your chance of threatening a crit is always the same short of the listed options. (of which, only ONE really can count as a skill attribute)

The only place that your weapon skills really makes a difference to crits? when confirming a critical hit.

From the way that the crit system is set up, the most influence you can have on your crit all starts with the weapon you pick, not your skills with it.

That's what I mean that it's more luck than skill.

LotharBot
2007-04-06, 02:09 PM
The dice do not represent "luck". The dice represent probability. There's a difference. (You as a player might be lucky that your die happened to give you a 20 at a specific time, but your character is just skilled.)

Watch some really skilled martial artists sparring. In D&D terms, we might say they have BAB +X and AC 10+X, which means they can hit one another 50% of the time. That doesn't mean they're "lucky" when they hit and "unlucky" when they don't... it means they're both skilled, and those skills work out to balance in such a way that they only score a hit once every two opportunities.

When you watch a really good basketball player who shoots 40% from three-point land, you don't say "oh, that was luck" every time he hits one. You recognize that his skill is such that he'll make some and miss others.

A critical is just, essentially, a very good strike with your weapon. A skilled combatant can expect to make very good strikes a certain percentage of the time (depending on the opponent he's swinging at.) Sometimes he'll hit armor, sometimes the opponent will duck out of the way, sometimes he'll hit an arm and do a bit of damage, and sometimes he'll land a solid blow to the head with his mace. It's not "luck" that leads to those things happening, it's skill.

The only exception, IMO, is when the only way to hit the thing is to roll a natural 20, and you do... and then you roll another to confirm the crit. That's just a lucky shot. But when you've got to roll a 12 to hit, and you happen to roll a 19 (with improved crit) and confirm by rolling a 13, that's not luck, that's just your skill showing through.

Cybren
2007-04-06, 02:31 PM
The dice do not represent "luck". The dice represent probability. There's a difference. (You as a player might be lucky that your die happened to give you a 20 at a specific time, but your character is just skilled.)

Watch some really skilled martial artists sparring. In D&D terms, we might say they have BAB +X and AC 10+X, which means they can hit one another 50% of the time. That doesn't mean they're "lucky" when they hit and "unlucky" when they don't... it means they're both skilled, and those skills work out to balance in such a way that they only score a hit once every two opportunities.

When you watch a really good basketball player who shoots 40% from three-point land, you don't say "oh, that was luck" every time he hits one. You recognize that his skill is such that he'll make some and miss others.

A critical is just, essentially, a very good strike with your weapon. A skilled combatant can expect to make very good strikes a certain percentage of the time (depending on the opponent he's swinging at.) Sometimes he'll hit armor, sometimes the opponent will duck out of the way, sometimes he'll hit an arm and do a bit of damage, and sometimes he'll land a solid blow to the head with his mace. It's not "luck" that leads to those things happening, it's skill.

The only exception, IMO, is when the only way to hit the thing is to roll a natural 20, and you do... and then you roll another to confirm the crit. That's just a lucky shot. But when you've got to roll a 12 to hit, and you happen to roll a 19 (with improved crit) and confirm by rolling a 13, that's not luck, that's just your skill showing through.
The dice represent anything the player wants.
It's just a game. If a playe rwants to say his fighter has absolutely no weapons training that's his choice.

LotharBot
2007-04-06, 02:54 PM
The dice represent anything the player wants.

No, they don't. It's "just a game" -- but this game does have rules. If the player wants to say "my fighter has no weapons training whatsoever", then his base attack bonus should be +0, because of what BaB represents. The DM might respond by creating some sort of "luck bonus" to make him still able to hit things, but the point is, the player can't just invent things unless the DM agrees to his rule change. The player can't just invent a rule that says "I hit by sheer force of luck" unless the DM agrees that his character hits by sheer force of luck.

The rules as written are meant to model something. I'm confident in saying the attack rules are meant to model attack skill (BaB and STR or DEX), weapon quality (MWK, enhancement bonuses), and the way these skills and abilities play out in combat (the d20 roll.)

Landing a critical hit -- that is, a hit that does extra damage because you hit a key spot -- is no more "lucky" than a trained athlete executing a very good jump, throw, catch, shot, or other maneuver. Yeah, on occasion, you do get a lucky break (a tipped ball, an opponent slipping, etc.) that gives you something you didn't expected, and you can get that in D&D too (via a luck bonus, luck domain power, or extremely lucky roll of the dice -- like two 20's in a row on something you can only hit with a natural 20.) But a critical hit is not USUALLY the result of luck, it's just the natural expectation that some of your swings will connect with a sensitive spot.

Yes, there are unusual situations where you actually do roll 4 20's in a row. Those are lucky. But your average "oh, my fighter scored another crit with his keen greataxe" is not lucky.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-06, 03:00 PM
The dice do not represent "luck". The dice represent probability.
Exactly.

And great examples, by the way.

Cybren
2007-04-06, 03:10 PM
the dice are abstractions of all the real world factors that would be too cumbersome to represent. Most of D&D is an abstraction. It's rather dumb to refuse to admit that luck can factor into it.

LotharBot
2007-04-06, 03:58 PM
the dice are abstractions of all the real world factors that would be too cumbersome to represent. Most of D&D is an abstraction. It's rather dumb to refuse to admit that luck can factor into it.

Where have I refused to admit that luck can factor into it? I've explicitly stated that rolling 2 20's in a row is lucky, and represents a lucky shot. I also stated that luck bonuses and luck domain powers bring luck into the equation.

The idea I've fought against is the idea that every die roll represents luck and only luck, and that therefore criticals are a result of luck and only luck. They're not. The die roll represents probability, not merely "luck" (and good/bad luck are specifically accounted for in luck bonuses.) Criticals are an expected result of a trained combatant making several attempted strikes -- he's expected to have some non-damaging hits, some misses, some damaging hits, and some criticals (and the probabilities depend on his level of skill and quality of weapon vs. what he's attacking.) So, for the most part, criticals are going to be the result of skill, and they'll only occasionally result from luck.

You could certainly create a system under which the d20 roll represents luck and only luck, and your warrior has no weapons training but only a luck bonus... but it would be a house-ruled system, not D&D 3.5 RAW.

Orzel
2007-04-06, 05:49 PM
Where have I refused to admit that luck can factor into it? I've explicitly stated that rolling 2 20's in a row is lucky, and represents a lucky shot. I also stated that luck bonuses and luck domain powers bring luck into the equation.

The idea I've fought against is the idea that every die roll represents luck and only luck, and that therefore criticals are a result of luck and only luck. They're not. The die roll represents probability, not merely "luck" (and good/bad luck are specifically accounted for in luck bonuses.) Criticals are an expected result of a trained combatant making several attempted strikes -- he's expected to have some non-damaging hits, some misses, some damaging hits, and some criticals (and the probabilities depend on his level of skill and quality of weapon vs. what he's attacking.) So, for the most part, criticals are going to be the result of skill, and they'll only occasionally result from luck.

You could certainly create a system under which the d20 roll represents luck and only luck, and your warrior has no weapons training but only a luck bonus... but it would be a house-ruled system, not D&D 3.5 RAW.

That's what I believe.

In D&D, it is assumed that a creature will penetrate another creature's defenses X% of the time on a certain attack, where X is 5 times the sum of 20, the attacker's attack bonus, and the negative value of the defender's AC. This is a hit. The chances varies often. Joh's AB is 5. Lop's AC is 13. Joh's attacks will get pass Lop's basic defenses 60% of the time.

It is assumed that a creature will greatly penetrate another creature's basic defenses a bit less 5% of the time. This is a critical hit. The chance barely varies. This is the percent of times the attack will break the defense so much that potential danger douples. Joh's attacks should be more threatening 5%. VS Lop, Joh's attacks should be twice as scary 3% of the time.

So at any given time, it is assumed that a defender will lower his of her defenses or have his or her defense broken around once per twenty attack oppenning. Keen weapons and higher threat range weapon are easily to break the defender's defenses. Imporved critical implies that the user is trained to create more threatening attacks more often.

The attack roll is mostly skill based. Your chances of hitting is based on your skill vs the target's defenses. The Critical hit roll is mostly luck based. Your chance of critically hitting is mostly based on the defender's chance of screwing up his defense.

Kel_Arath
2007-04-06, 06:07 PM
its just that you happend to swing your sword (weapon) just right to hit something vital, not that your swing was lucky, but that the enemy failed to defend it properly

Matthew
2007-04-08, 09:39 PM
Interesting discussion. A lot of it depends on your conception of 'luck'. For me, the D20 roll represents all the factors not taken into account by modifiers, which are generally those not readily perceptable or controllable. In D&D that could be as much Skill as Divine Favour.
Critical Hits are a mish mash of previous edition rules that have recently become intrinsically tied to weapons, an interesting development, but not one that I am pleased about.
Luck is itself a potentially none existant factor, depending on your conception of the D&D Universe (and, indeed, the real world Universe). It's just a word used to describe unseen or unanticipated factors. A lot of combat comes down to good fortune (whatever that is).
Improved Critical might describe a Character's skill and Keen the Magically increased probability, but the Natural Twenty could always be described as luck.