PDA

View Full Version : Anti-Magic sans magic



silentknight
2007-04-06, 01:37 PM
Okay. What I want is to make a warrior-type who hates magic. What I need is a class or PrC that is designed to neutralize or take out spell casters. The caveat: the class shouldn't have magical or spellcasting powers/abilities. Any ideas? Oh, and I'm looking for classes, not magic items.

And on a related note... the two "mage killer" classes (Mage Killer PrC from Forgotten Realms and Suel Arcanamach PrC from Complete Arcane) that I am aware of both seem more like "make your mage better" classes rather than "kill the enemy spellcaster easier" classes. What up with that?

Thank you for your consideration.

1337_master
2007-04-06, 01:38 PM
...Occult slayer? they actually say in the description "They hate Magic"

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-06, 01:38 PM
Okay. What I want is to make a warrior-type who hates magic. What I need is a class or PrC that is designed to neutralize or take out spell casters. The caveat: the class shouldn't have magical or spellcasting powers/abilities. Any ideas? Oh, and I'm looking for classes, not magic items.

That's designed to? The Occult Slayer, from the Complete Warrior.

There aren't any classes that actually do what you're looking for, though.

KoDT69
2007-04-06, 02:02 PM
Try a Vow of Poverty Monk/Barbarian/Forsaker specialized in sundering and increasing intiative. You should be able to target all of the enemy's gear and sunder the crap out of it. Not sure about the spells, but he'll be a magic item destroyin fool :smallbiggrin:

TempusCCK
2007-04-06, 02:04 PM
Isn't there a Favored Enemy Variant for the Ranger that allows Arcanists? I seem to remember someone on the board referencing it in one of those non-Core books I never use.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-06, 03:18 PM
Try a Vow of Poverty Monk/Barbarian/Forsaker specialized in sundering and increasing intiative. You should be able to target all of the enemy's gear and sunder the crap out of it. Not sure about the spells, but he'll be a magic item destroyin fool :smallbiggrin:
My little old wizard will be up here on his Phantom Steed and laughing at you all day. With VoP you can't fly.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-06, 03:27 PM
Invent your own.

Things you need:
1) Good saves.
2) Useful Spell Resistance.
3) A non-magical way to fly.
4) A non-magical way to prevent the wizard from teleporting.
5) Otherwise reasonable fighter build.

Let's call it the Beholder Slayer class. Requires Fighter 8 to enter, as well as Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, and Iron Will, has full BAB, all good saves, d10 HD. At class level 3 (ECL:11) the Slayer has to kill a beholder, extract the flight organ (a craft(taxidermy) check) and ingest it in a ceremonial ritual, acquiring the power to fly as a beholder. At class level 6 (ECL:14) the Slayer has to again kill a beholder -- this time without assistance -- and extract the central eye, acquiring a permanent anti-magic effect on himself (can't be turned off -- so he loses access to things like healing magic). At class level 8 (ECL:16) the capstone ability: can declare one other character within reach of his weapon (not ranged) to impose anti-magic on for that round, like declaring dodge.

That's a character that might have a chance against a wizard. Doesn't seem overpowered otherwise -- he's sacrificing 4 bonus feats (plus the three weak feats he took to qualify for the class) and the opportunity to take considerably better prestige classes for any battle against a non-caster.

TempusCCK
2007-04-06, 04:15 PM
Eh, why break up the Beholder slayings? This guy hates wizards, he wants to get right into the battle with them, just make the Beholder Harvesting part of the prerequisite for the class then have the anti-magic-dodge be an ability for the class.

Begle1
2007-04-06, 05:02 PM
I still say that a class needs to be made that will easily defeat wizards but easily fall to fighters... D&D needs a rock-paper-scissors scheme.

Tack122
2007-04-06, 05:08 PM
Well make the class that gives almost complete spell immunity give 1/2 BAB and just to make sure the wizard type cant run away, give them some sort of way to dispel magical effects on a target somehow... Spelljammer type thing is in some book right?

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-06, 05:11 PM
Yeah, that class would be AWESOME to play! You know, because most monsters and NPCs cast spells at you!

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-04-06, 05:11 PM
Athar Defiant, Forsaker, Occult Slayer.

By the way, I hope you're not playing above about 10th level.

lord_khaine
2007-04-06, 05:13 PM
yeah funny enough, there really isnt any realistic way to take a wizard out in a fair fight without being some kind of caster yourself(arcane/divine/psion).

but if you want to make your own class, then ill just add that you would need some way to pinpoint a invisibel wizard as well.
as a start to evaluate your would-be mageslayer, imagine him in a fight against a invisibel flying wizard, and if you cant find a fitting countermove then back to the drawing board.

SpatulaOfDoom
2007-04-06, 05:15 PM
I created an alternate version of the Occult Slayer called the Witch Hunter for a friend who wanted something OGL. It's meant to be somewhat rangerish rather than a straight fighter type, anyone who takes it might want to think about the Track or Urban Tracking feats.

Pre-req: Bab:+5, Knowledge: Religion or Arcana 4, spellcraft 2 ranks
BAB: 1/1 Good saves: Will
Skillpoints 4+int
Skills: Bluff, Craft, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Arcana or Religion depending on Hated Enemy), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Spellcraft, Survival, Use rope.
HD d8
Hated enemy: When taking the first level in Witch Hunter you must select which type of spellcaster you specialize in defeating, arcane or divine. Your choice dictates whether the pre-requisite skill is 4 ranks in Knowledge Arcana or 4 ranks in Knoledge Religion and many of the Witch hunters abilities only work against this particular type of spellcaster.

At 1st level: Endure Magic(EX): At 1st level and every level after the Witch Hunter receives a +1 to one saving throw type, but only against spells and spell-like abilities. The Witch Hunter decides which save gets the bonus and the bonuses stack, but once selected the bonus cannot be changed.

At 1st level: Spellstriking(EX): In battle Witch Hunters aim to disrupt his opponents concentration and make spellcasting difficult. Whenever the Witch Hunter strikes and damages his hated enemy with a melee or ranged weapon attack the Hated Enemy receives a 10% spell failure for a number of rounds equal to the Witch Hunter’s class level, at 3rd level the spell failure increases to 20%. Repeated applications do not stack.

At 2nd level:Weather Eye(EX): Tricks and illusions are just one of the ways spell casters hide and evade justice, the Witch Hunter can see through them. Against any spell with a saving throw entry of :Will disbelief (If interacted with) the Witch Hunter does not need to interact with the spell to receive a save but makes his save as soon as he becomes aware of the spell effect. If he fails the save and later actually does interact with the spell he gets a second save.

At 3rd level(SU): Smite Hated Enemy 1/day. This works like the Paladin’s smite evil ability except that it can be used against any Hated Enemy regardless of alignment.

At 4th level: Bounce spell (SU): Once per day when a Witch Hunter of at least 4th level is targeted with a ranged touch spell by a Hated Enemy he may attempt to deflect it to another target. The Witch Hunter makes a ranged attack roll to oppose the Hated Enemies attack roll, if he succeeds the Witch Hunter deflects the spell with a held weapon or even a bare hand to another target within range, or no target if he does not wish to affect anyone else with the spell (calculate distance from the original caster) and his opposed attack roll becomes the attack roll to hit. The Witch Hunter must be aware of the attack and not flat footed to use this ability.

At 5th level: Purity of focus (SU): At 5th level the Witch Hunter attains the pinnacle of his craft and, for a brief period of time, can literally ignore most spells thrown at him by a Hated Enemy. Once per day as a free action the Witch Hunter can gain spell resistance equal to 20+ his Hit Die against Hated Enemies only, this lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3+cha modifier

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-06, 06:01 PM
Make a psion, or a psychic warrior. Psychic warriors overcome many of the limitations their mundane counterparts are victim to.

Tobrian
2007-04-06, 06:17 PM
Well make the class that gives almost complete spell immunity give 1/2 BAB and just to make sure the wizard type cant run away, give them some sort of way to dispel magical effects on a target somehow... Spelljammer type thing is in some book right?

Er, you want to design a class that is a kick-ass warrior, has several good saves AND complete spell immunity(!) and can dispel magic as a special ability, and get a sort of Hold Person ability... isn't that highly processed cheese? Come on, no-one should be allpowerful.

Just for the record, I know that d20 D&D practically encourages making PrCs or classes that conveniently offer you exactly the sort of powers your PC needs for his career choice, no matter how outlandish said career is. And while sometiems this makes sense in a sort of "specialist training" way, at other times this pisses me off. Why? Because it means players don't need to use their brains anymore to come up with plans, or use their existing powers to solve new problems, they just pick up Special Prestige Class X and get it all served on a silver platter. :smallannoyed:

Just as the existance of the Assassin PrC has let to the idea that a character has to be an "assassin" to be able to effectively kill people for money or Queen and Country. Bleh. Historically, assassins could be nearly anyone. Sure an assassin is flashy, like a ninja. But... ah well I'll stop ranting. Sorry.


EDITED TO ADD:

I created an alternate version of the Occult Slayer called the Witch Hunter(snip)

Spatula, while I find the idea very stylish, I see several massive problems with the execution. :smalleek: See below.


Pre-req: Bab:+5, Knowledge: Religion or Arcana 4, spellcraft 2 ranks


This means I can enter the PrC at 6th level, if I take 5 levels of Fighter or Ranger. THose prereqs are way too low. Perhaps the prereqs should include the FAvored Enemy class ability already (a ranger branching out) and something from the cleric or paladin table, so that the character is forced to multiclass. At the very least put into the prereqs a feat that means the character is part of a clerical society that hunts witches or heretics, or someone who was "blooded" in a fight against a spellcasting foe previously.



BAB: 1/1 Good saves: Will
Skillpoints 4+int
Skills: Bluff, Craft, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Arcana or Religion depending on Hated Enemy), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Spellcraft, Survival, Use rope.
HD d8
Hated enemy: When taking the first level in Witch Hunter you must select which type of spellcaster you specialize in defeating, arcane or divine. Your choice dictates whether the pre-requisite skill is 4 ranks in Knowledge Arcana or 4 ranks in Knoledge Religion and many of the Witch hunters abilities only work against this particular type of spellcaster.

A ranger variant with "witches" as favored enemy. Technically ok so far, nice idea to have a warrior who can deflect magic. But you made it a 5-level PrC instead of a 10 level PrC, which means:


At 1st level: Endure Magic(EX): At 1st level and every level after the Witch Hunter receives a +1 to one saving throw type, but only against spells and spell-like abilities. The Witch Hunter decides which save gets the bonus and the bonuses stack, but once selected the bonus cannot be changed.

What do you means "only" gainst spells and spell-like abilities?? That's pretty powerful, and it means when I have 5 levels of this Witchhunter PrC (around level 10) I have +5 on either Will or Fort saves against ALL spells and spell-like abilities. That's more than twice the bonus that some LA races have.


At 1st level: Spellstriking(EX): In battle Witch Hunters aim to disrupt his opponents concentration and make spellcasting difficult. Whenever the Witch Hunter strikes and damages his hated enemy with a melee or ranged weapon attack the Hated Enemy receives a 10% spell failure for a number of rounds equal to the Witch Hunter’s class level, at 3rd level the spell failure increases to 20%. Repeated applications do not stack.

Spellcasters already have to roll concentration if damaged during casting.


At 2nd level:Weather Eye(EX): Tricks and illusions are just one of the ways spell casters hide and evade justice, the Witch Hunter can see through them. Against any spell with a saving throw entry of :Will disbelief (If interacted with) the Witch Hunter does not need to interact with the spell to receive a save but makes his save as soon as he becomes aware of the spell effect. If he fails the save and later actually does interact with the spell he gets a second save.

Hm ok.


At 3rd level(SU): Smite Hated Enemy 1/day. This works like the Paladin’s smite evil ability except that it can be used against any Hated Enemy regardless of alignment.

Ok.


At 4th level: Bounce spell (SU): Once per day when a Witch Hunter of at least 4th level is targeted with a ranged touch spell by a Hated Enemy he may attempt to deflect it to another target. The Witch Hunter makes a ranged attack roll to oppose the Hated Enemies attack roll, if he succeeds the Witch Hunter deflects the spell with a held weapon or even a bare hand to another target within range, or no target if he does not wish to affect anyone else with the spell (calculate distance from the original caster) and his opposed attack roll becomes the attack roll to hit. The Witch Hunter must be aware of the attack and not flat footed to use this ability.

:smalleek: You are aware that Spell Turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellTurning.htm) is a 7th level spell, do you? Here, a guy who has a fighter's BAB progression can use ATTACK ROLLS to deflect incoming spells!! Even Spell Turning only allows partial deflection if the opponent is of higher level.

This is a bit excessive. And you could get this at character level 9. Just no.


At 5th level: Purity of focus (SU): At 5th level the Witch Hunter attains the pinnacle of his craft and, for a brief period of time, can literally ignore most spells thrown at him by a Hated Enemy. Once per day as a free action the Witch Hunter can gain spell resistance equal to 20+ his Hit Die against Hated Enemies only, this lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3+cha modifier

Okaaaaay. Spell resistance 20+HD at character level 10? Even most monsters only have SR 1+HD or 15+HD. Admittedly, it's only once per day... but for several round! And really how many combat encounters with an enemy spellcaster can we expect to have per day? Usually not more than one.

silentknight
2007-04-06, 06:20 PM
Thanks fellow forumites! I did remember the Occult Slayer but did not remember any of the abilities.

Spatula: I like your homebrew PrC. It fits well with what I was aiming for. In 3.0 Oriental Adventures there is a Witch Hunter class, but, again, it is a spellcasting PrC.

Epiphanis
2007-04-06, 07:59 PM
Lots of people take it as dogmatic that spellcasters are invulnerable and invincible compared to martial characters. Still, the graveyards have an awful lot of dead wizards in them, and they weren't all killed by other wizards.

You don't really need an uber-specialized build to make a pure martial character that can kick the butt of a correspondingly leveled wizard or sorcerer. Frankly, any high-Dex archer build fighter or ranger will be more than servicable against most arcanists. The trick is to get the initiative (Dexterity and Improved Initiative) and, instead of shooting right away, ready your attack for when spellboy starts casting. Combat Casting doesn't help much when every time you open your mouth you get a clothyard shaft in it.

For those times when a generic archer isn't good enough, try Monk 3/Hexblade 3 (Feat Progression: Improved Initiative, Mage Slayer, Weapon Focus (longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot...) followed by levels of Occult Slayer works very nicely indeed.

Arcanists like to think being able to cast "Fly" makes them invulnerable to melee. First, that is really only effective outdoors (Okay, with this 10' ceiling, instead of hitting you in the face I hit you in the crotch. Is that really a tactical advantage?) Second, tanglefoot bags can help with this a lot, but most of the time rather than mucking with them I'd just go with arrows to the face. Especially with wizards -- few will have multiple Flies prepared ( every Fly you have is a Fireball you don't !)

Jerthanis
2007-04-06, 08:11 PM
One problem with making a magic hating character is making sure they fit with the rest of the party. If they hate all magic (both arcane and divine), the rest of the party had better be all Fighters, Barbarians and Rogues, or your character will have limited reason to journey with them, and that's not even touching on all the problems like whether you'd refuse magical healing during downtime, or what you'd feel about resurrections or perhaps an objection against using Speak with dead, discern lie or zone of truth spells during interrogations. If you only hate arcane spellcasting however, a lot of these mechanical problems no longer apply. However, before you ask us how to make this character concept viable mechanically, you should talk with your fellow players and DM and make sure that this character will still be able to contribute to a healthy party dynamic.



You don't really need an uber-specialized build to make a pure martial character that can kick the butt of a correspondingly leveled wizard or sorcerer. Frankly, any high-Dex archer build fighter or ranger will be more than servicable against most arcanists. The trick is to get the initiative (Dexterity and Improved Initiative) and, instead of shooting right away, ready your attack for when spellboy starts casting. Combat Casting doesn't help much when every time you open your mouth you get a clothyard shaft in it.

For those times when a generic archer isn't good enough, try Monk 3/Hexblade 3 (Feat Progression: Improved Initiative, Mage Slayer, Weapon Focus (longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot...) followed by levels of Occult Slayer works very nicely indeed.

Arcanists like to think being able to cast "Fly" makes them invulnerable to melee. First, that is really only effective outdoors (Okay, with this 10' ceiling, instead of hitting you in the face I hit you in the crotch. Is that really a tactical advantage?) Second, tanglefoot bags can help with this a lot, but most of the time rather than mucking with them I'd just go with arrows to the face. Especially with wizards -- few will have multiple Flies prepared ( every Fly you have is a Fireball you don't !)

...but you don't threaten with a Bow...

also, midlevel wizards can make a concentration save like a mofo. Con is like, their second most important stat, and Skill Focus: Concentration is frequently picked up with a spare feat at some point.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-06, 08:14 PM
*sigh*
Not another wizards can be killed by a well played fighter argument. So search through the threads for the past month Epiphanis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=4877) , I understand that you are new here and all. So I won't hold it against you for bringing this up, but go search. It has been beat into the ground literally thousands of times and no one has ever come up with a fighter that can defeat wizards played to their potential.

Epiphanis
2007-04-06, 08:49 PM
I've already read them. I do not accept the conclusions that the vocal majority have embraced.

I do agree the topic has been beaten to death, and I don't really want to beat it some more. Suffice it to say that the arguments put forth have not convinced everybody, if "everybody" is a set that includes me. If you want to hold that against me, go ahead.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-06, 09:10 PM
Feel free to post a fighter build that can defeat the:

Greater Celercity + Quickened Disjunction + Maximized Time Stop + Dimensional Lock + Quickened Cloudkill + Forcecage

combo at least 50% of the time. Once you do that we can move onto something a bit more challenging.

Kel_Arath
2007-04-06, 10:38 PM
occult slayre or forsaker come to mind

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-06, 10:46 PM
You don't really need an uber-specialized build to make a pure martial character that can kick the butt of a correspondingly leveled wizard or sorcerer. Frankly, any high-Dex archer build fighter or ranger will be more than servicable against most arcanists. The trick is to get the initiative (Dexterity and Improved Initiative) and, instead of shooting right away, ready your attack for when spellboy starts casting. Combat Casting doesn't help much when every time you open your mouth you get a clothyard shaft in it.
Yeah. Archers are really scary. There's no way I can cast quickened spells, move out of view, give you a huge miss chance, throw up a Wind Wall, or just make the concentration check against 1d8+5 to 10 points of damage.
You shoot the wizard, he makes the concentration check, you have a Solid Fog on you. Then the wizard proceeds to throw a Black Tentacles and a Web in there, then lob a damage-over-time spell like Acid Fog or something in.


For those times when a generic archer isn't good enough, try Monk 3/Hexblade 3 (Feat Progression: Improved Initiative, Mage Slayer, Weapon Focus (longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot...) followed by levels of Occult Slayer works very nicely indeed.
And yet, that doesn't actually help against the above.


Arcanists like to think being able to cast "Fly" makes them invulnerable to melee. First, that is really only effective outdoors (Okay, with this 10' ceiling, instead of hitting you in the face I hit you in the crotch. Is that really a tactical advantage?) Second, tanglefoot bags can help with this a lot, but most of the time rather than mucking with them I'd just go with arrows to the face. Especially with wizards -- few will have multiple Flies prepared ( every Fly you have is a Fireball you don't !)
10' by 10' rooms are teh exception, not the rule.
Wizards don't care if they don't have Fireball, because Fireball is a crappy spell.
They stop casting Fly once they get Overland Flight, which lasts all day.
Tanglefoot Bags aren't much of a help when you're out of range (and don't prevent magical flight anyway--the wizard's not going to land).

If you want to be able to defeat stupid spellcasters who run around throwing fireballs at their enemies, sure. That's not too hard.
If you want to be able to defeat spellcasters who are actually using their capabilities, that's a whole 'nother bag of dire rhinoceroses.

KoDT69
2007-04-06, 11:14 PM
Heh, what about a Ranger dual weilding Rods of Negation and his animal companion is a Beholder, whose anti-magic eye happens to be fixated on the wizard? :smallbiggrin:

PaladinBoy
2007-04-06, 11:18 PM
Yeah. Archers are really scary. There's no way I can cast quickened spells, move out of view, give you a huge miss chance, throw up a Wind Wall, or just make the concentration check against 1d8+5 to 10 points of damage.
You shoot the wizard, he makes the concentration check, you have a Solid Fog on you. Then the wizard proceeds to throw a Black Tentacles and a Web in there, then lob a damage-over-time spell like Acid Fog or something in.

A melee-specialized build that pulls out a bow isn't very scary. An arcane archer that shoots an arrow of death at you with his +5 keen shocking burst composite longbow is a good bit scarier. Even a fighter build with appropriate magic equipment could do a little more than 5 to 10 damage.


10' by 10' rooms are teh exception, not the rule.
Wizards don't care if they don't have Fireball, because Fireball is a crappy spell.
They stop casting Fly once they get Overland Flight, which lasts all day.
Tanglefoot Bags aren't much of a help when you're out of range (and don't prevent magical flight anyway--the wizard's not going to land).

When we're indoors, I generally say the ceiling is 10' high. Whether or not that happens often is entirely up to the DM.

I think the point was that if the wizard has spent all his spell slots on battlefield control, buffs, and the like, then he's going to have a hard time killing you even if he completely immobilizes you.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-06, 11:19 PM
Does a ranger cast spells? Yes. Therefore a ranger is not a fighter type.

Clementx
2007-04-06, 11:24 PM
Feel free to post a fighter build that can defeat the:
Greater Celercity + Quickened Disjunction + Maximized Time Stop + Dimensional Lock + Quickened Cloudkill + Forcecage
Easy. You can't cast Celerity and a Quickened spell in the same round without an Epic feat. Immediate actions don't mix with swift. You have to choose between getting Time Stop off with Celerity and spending your time with indirect methods, or wear through at least one very deadly round while you hope for initiative and Disjunction before setting the rest of the combo (which is not as deadly as you hope, since it involves lone characters and a lot of failed saves). The fact that Celerity and the Forcecage combo is nearly useless without Time Stop, the most broken and powerful spell even among lvl9 spells, should tell you something about the nature of wizards- they are only powerful because each book has more spells than feats, therefore a greater potential per book of giving the wizard an insane tool.

Unfortunately, this happened with the first book.

Counterpower
2007-04-06, 11:33 PM
Feel free to post a fighter build that can defeat the:

Greater Celercity + Quickened Disjunction + Maximized Time Stop + Dimensional Lock + Quickened Cloudkill + Forcecage

combo at least 50% of the time. Once you do that we can move onto something a bit more challenging.

If it doesn't have to be a fighter, I invite you to survive the rogue sneak attack that the wizard just didn't see coming. Sure, Greater Celerity is an immediate action, but after you get shot doesn't help you all that much. And Celerity does allow you a full round to do what you will with, if I remember my spells correctly. So he can cast that, then a quickened spell in the round he gets with it.

Average 20th rogue sneak attack damage with a +5 flaming acid heavy crossbow: (10d6+2d6+2d6+5+1d10), (3.5*10+3.5*2+3.5*2+5+5.5), total 59.5

Average 20th wizard HP: (20d4), (2.5*20), total 50

Admittedly, the wizard probably does have a higher Con modifier than 0, but I could go with a mighty composite longbow instead and give my rogue higher Strength. I just want to try to illustrate that one devastating attack can be crippling to a wizard, with his low HP.

Edit: I can't stay up any longer, unfortunately. I'll be back in another few hours.

Jasdoif
2007-04-07, 12:35 AM
Sure, Greater Celerity is an immediate action, but after you get shot doesn't help you all that much. And Celerity does allow you a full round to do what you will with, if I remember my spells correctly. So he can cast that, then a quickened spell in the round he gets with it.Here's the trick to the whole thing: Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm). Foresight means you're never surprised or flatfooted. You know when the attack is coming, and you use Greater Celerity then, before the attack hits. Then you use your maximized Time Stop and you have 4 rounds worth of undazed time to move out of the way and cast whatever spells you feel like. Trapping your would-be assassin inside a forcecage in the middle of a cloud of acid fog (or maybe cloudkill), teleporting to a safer location away from the whole thing...both....

Epiphanis
2007-04-07, 12:42 AM
The sarcasm humbles me. How could I have been such a fool?

So, we automatically assume that we are talking about endgame characters? I generally hang up my characters in the level 17-20 range, but apparently if its not proto-epic level its not worth consideration? How do wizards survive to become archmagi?


There's no way I can cast quickened spells, move out of view, give you a huge miss chance, throw up a Wind Wall, or just make the concentration check against 1d8+5 to 10 points of damage.

Well, actually, there is probably an excellent chance you won't be able to do any of those things.

Quickened Spells are "free action" casting -- which can't be done flat-footed, don't avoid readied attacks, and still require a concentration check if injured while casting. So a lot is going to ride on the initiative roll.

The real tactical advantage of a free action casting in this kind of fight is to get the fighter to waste his readied attack on foiling it, then use a standard action to cast the spell you actually care about. Make that second spell count, 'cause you aren't going to be able to repeat that trick often!

Up until around level 15 or so the damage from a single arrow will pose a serious risk of spell waste to a wizard's concentration check. At character level 10 the wizard is going to clock in with around a +20 concentration modifier but will be facing a DC of 13-20 + spell level. Call it a 50-50 chance of getting out the most effective spells. And with wizards those slots count a lot, especially as multiple preparations of that perfect spell are unlikely.

Note that Occult Slayers do double damage on this kind of readied attack -- making an arrow hit roughly 2/3 likely to break concentration around the level 10 character benchmark.

Solid Fog is indeed a wonderful tactical spell, but not necessarily the deal breaker Bears makes it out to be. Evard's Black Tentacles is probably more effective, but ultimately they both only slow the opposition down. Good to buy time to escape, heal, or buff up, but on a one-on-one fight I'm not seeing how they alone will lead to victory. The real damage dealers require either a saving throw or a to-hit roll.

Forcecage+Cloudkill is hard to beat, but the question is will the wizard be able to cast both of them? Even endgame 17+ wizards are not going to find this a sure thing.


10' by 10' rooms are teh exception, not the rule.


Sez who? I'd estimate more than 2/3s of the D&D combats I've been in have been under ceilings.


Quickened Disjunction + Maximized Time Stop

Say what? Okay, I concede that no fighter can defeat a wizard who can cast thirteenth level spells.

Armads
2007-04-07, 12:56 AM
But why would the wizard cast foresight? It only lasts for 10 minutes/level.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-07, 12:57 AM
Say what? Okay, I concede that no fighter can defeat a wizard who can cast thirteenth level spells.
Metacheesy rods.

Aquillion
2007-04-07, 12:58 AM
Feel free to post a fighter build that can defeat the:

Greater Celercity + Quickened Disjunction + Maximized Time Stop + Dimensional Lock + Quickened Cloudkill + Forcecage

combo at least 50% of the time. Once you do that we can move onto something a bit more challenging.Not to go too offtopic, but that one is easy.

My build: Commoner 20. Invest all wealth and adventuring time in aquiring as many artifacts as possible, no matter how minor or insignificent they are. Go for the most absurdly useless artifacts imaginable--the real bottom-of-the barrel stuff, it doesn't matter how pathetic.

Let's say you're a level 20 wizard. When you get to the 'disjunction' part, chances are you'll disjunct several of my artifacts. You must now make a DC 25 Will save for each or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities, at which point I beat you to death with a rock.

4 artifacts are enough to raise your chance of disjuncting one above 50%, but then a few more are needed to account for the chance you'll succeed at the save... Assume a +15 will save (being generous... wizards have relatively little reason for high wisdom), about 8 artifacts should do it.

(...ok, so if you have 8 artifacts I guess using one of them might be a better strategy...)

Epiphanis
2007-04-07, 12:58 AM
I seem to be missing something, unaccustomed as I am to uberlevel play: how can you apply metamagic feats that would crank the base spell's level up past 9?

Armads
2007-04-07, 12:59 AM
Metamagic rods

Epiphanis
2007-04-07, 01:05 AM
Metacheesy rods

Thanks, PinkysBrain. But that raises another issue with uberlevel play that Aquillion also brings up: magic items distort the picture a lot even at low levels, at the endgame its virtually impossible to talk about a character build without including his magic item inventory in it. Many of the best no-save arcane spells can be foiled with rings of free movement, etc. If you assume the wizard has an arsenal including metamagic rods, can you not assume the fighter has countering magic items too?

Aquillion
2007-04-07, 01:05 AM
Oh, I have a better solution!

I build a diplomacy-abusing build, then find a wizard several levels higher than you, get him to Fanatic, and keep him near me at all times. Better yet, I find twenty such wizards. And the king of a large-sized nation. If I can initiate a conversation with a diety, I get him to fanatic, too, and have him make me into a proxy so I'm immortal.

When you Greater Celerity, my wizards respond with Greater Celerities of their own; if you keep trading off, they win because they're higher level and have more spell slots to burn on it. They then proceed to kill you by whatever means you prefer.

(This assumes you're a PC. If you're an NPC, I get you to Fanatic and order you to kill yourself. Problem solved.)

EDIT: Reply to post that wasn't there when I started...


magic items distort the picture a lot even at low levels, at the endgame its virtually impossible to talk about a character build without including his magic item inventory in it. Many of the best no-save arcane spells can be foiled with rings of free movement, etc. If you assume the wizard has an arsenal including metamagic rods, can you not assume the fighter has countering magic items too?Not really. My post was half a joke (you can't assume you have even one artifact, really, never mind eight), but short of artifacts I don't think there's anything that stands up to disjunction reliably (that's why it's in the strategy in the first place.) You'd need a magic item that let you avoid being preempted by Celerity, and I don't think any such thing exists.

Jasdoif
2007-04-07, 01:14 AM
But why would the wizard cast foresight? It only lasts for 10 minutes/level.Combine with a rod of extend spell, and at 18th level a single cast lasts for a whole six hours. Why wouldn't you cast foresight, particularly if you have a celerity-based plan ready?


Thanks, PinkysBrain. But that raises another issue with uberlevel play that Aquillion also brings up: magic items distort the picture a lot even at low levels, at the endgame its virtually impossible to talk about a character build without including his magic item inventory in it. Many of the best no-save arcane spells can be foiled with rings of free movement, etc. If you assume the wizard has an arsenal including metamagic rods, can you not assume the fighter has countering magic items too?Sure you can. It's not going to be easy to handle Solid Fog, Cloudkill and Forcecage, though. None of them have you as the spell target (Forcecage is listed as having an area, not a target) so a ring of counterspells wouldn't do you any good, and none of them allow spell resistance so the usual spell resistance/spell immunity type effects don't work either.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-07, 02:18 AM
Slayer, level 8, keeps you from being detected by any spell, power, item, or ability.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-07, 02:27 AM
What Slayer?

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-07, 02:27 AM
The psionic one.

Tobrian
2007-04-07, 02:46 AM
Does a ranger cast spells? Yes. Therefore a ranger is not a fighter type.

Huh?? :smallconfused: Rangers and paladins are both semi-casters, but both have 1/1 BAB progression just like the fighter. And both use melee weapons and stuff. And there are variant rangers and variant paladins without spellcasting in the Complete Warrior. I'm just saying.


Greater Celercity + Quickened Disjunction + Maximized Time Stop + Dimensional Lock + Quickened Cloudkill + Forcecage

That's just ridiculous. I guess he casts everything at once? What is your hypothetical wizard, level 45?

funny that people always invent epic uber-wizards with every spell and magic item available, and then let them go up against a level 5 fighter with a shortsword and a broken bow.

Jasdoif
2007-04-07, 03:28 AM
That's just ridiculous. I guess he casts everything at once?Greater Celerity gives the wizard a full round's worth of actions as an immediate action, which the wizard uses to cast Time Stop with a rod of maximize to give himself 5 free rounds worth of actions.

So as far as the rest of the universe is concerned, yes, he's done everything at once.



What is your hypothetical wizard, level 45?It's easily doable at 19.



And I agree, it is ridiculous. That's at the heart of the matter, the rules allow high-level wizards to do these ridiculous things, which is why they're so powerful in comparison to, say, fighters at those levels.


EDIT: Just to emphasize how ridiculous the Foresight/Greater Celerity/Maximized Time Stop combo is....Foresight means the wizard is never surprised. If there's a surprise round, the wizard acts in it. Foresight means the wizard is never flatfooted. The wizard can use the immediate action for Greater Celerity at any time, and use the resulting actions to cast a maximized Time Stop. As a result, the wizard can choose to act unmolested for five rounds (well, four since the wizard will dazed for one because of celerity) as soon as initiative is rolled.

Sir Giacomo
2007-04-07, 05:07 AM
Hi everyone,

hardly a week passes by and I stumble across the boards with two+ major threads again trumpeting the "full-caster" auto-win fallacy. All the more I'm cheering that in this thread, some posters are at long last giving more opposition.

Wizards, clerics, druids what have you are not unbeatable, certainly not at low levels, but likely also not at high levels. If you're flat-footed AND the opponent wins the initiative (something not that unlikely given that non-casters more often than not have the higher dexterity and/or more initiative-boosting feats), than it is the non-caster smashing into the caster for 1.5 rounds, not the other way round. Of course, the same holds true if the caster goes first: then the non-caster will likely perish from celerity/timestop boosted quickened 6-spell combos.

Now the big thing in favour of casters is getting a more favourable chance at least for the surprise round (and I am not counting an extended foresight of up to a third of a day only, so a bit tricky to have up all the time). And that edge over non-casters is research capability. Still, with the use of the leadership feat, non-casters may have access to spells to cloak themselves also (like a mind blank).
Even without a leadership feat, all non-casters can use scrolls to do the trick in case the get up UMD. (I am currently working on a fighter build to do exactly that. And do not say that is using magic to get on par with magic-users. Everyone can use magic. That is part of a system better balanced than many give it credit here).

Having said that, if you consider the inferiority in combat/outside of combat for full casters including wizards at low levels, then the whole stuff balances out over time. And as Epiphanis has mentioned (and what polls here seem to suggest), the very high levels are quire rare in actual game play.

Happy Easter holidays!

- Giacomo

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-07, 08:31 AM
Hi everyone,

hardly a week passes by and I stumble across the boards with two+ major threads again trumpeting the "full-caster" auto-win fallacy. All the more I'm cheering that in this thread, some posters are at long last giving more opposition.
So long as you and others consider it a fallacy it will keep coming up. If you want to put down this "fallacy" you just need to post a complete fighter build with instructions that can do a few things. First is escape the combo posted above. Once that is done we can move on to the next thing.


Wizards, clerics, druids what have you are not unbeatable, certainly not at low levels, but likely also not at high levels. If you're flat-footed AND the opponent wins the initiative (something not that unlikely given that non-casters more often than not have the higher dexterity and/or more initiative-boosting feats), than it is the non-caster smashing into the caster for 1.5 rounds, not the other way round.
My wizard can't be flatfooted and will always act first.


Of course, the same holds true if the caster goes first: then the non-caster will likely perish from celerity/timestop boosted quickened 6-spell combos.
See above. The wizard always goes first.


Now the big thing in favour of casters is getting a more favourable chance at least for the surprise round (and I am not counting an extended foresight of up to a third of a day only, so a bit tricky to have up all the time). And that edge over non-casters is research capability. Still, with the use of the leadership feat, non-casters may have access to spells to cloak themselves also (like a mind blank).
Mindblank doesn't stop foresight. And no, you are counting on foresight being up. I'm utterly tired of this arbitrary restrictions that are put on the wizard.


Even without a leadership feat, all non-casters can use scrolls to do the trick in case the get up UMD. (I am currently working on a fighter build to do exactly that. And do not say that is using magic to get on par with magic-users. Everyone can use magic. That is part of a system better balanced than many give it credit here).

Build whatever you like. Fighter 20, 760,000 GP, No leadership as using it requires DM fiat, and no party or I get to make one as well.

Other than those few restrictions you can do whatever you want.

And if you want you can replace fighter 20 with any and all combination of classes. The only restriction is that you must not have a casting level,


Having said that, if you consider the inferiority in combat/outside of combat for full casters including wizards at low levels, then the whole stuff balances out over time. And as Epiphanis has mentioned (and what polls here seem to suggest), the very high levels are quire rare in actual game play.
Wizards can hold their own at lower levels. I've solo leveled from level 1 to level 20 with a wizard. Its doable, if annoying.

Counterpower
2007-04-07, 09:23 AM
So long as you and others consider it a fallacy it will keep coming up. If you want to put down this "fallacy" you just need to post a complete fighter build with instructions that can do a few things. First is escape the combo posted above. Once that is done we can move on to the next thing.

Working on it. Of course, I would prefer a build that has the requisite skills to kill said combo before it's even prepared in the morning.


My wizard can't be flatfooted and will always act first.


See above. The wizard always goes first.

Only for about 18 out of the 24 hours in a day, assuming a metamagic rod of greater extend and 3 9th-level spell slots. Part of killing a wizard is not attacking when he's at full strength.


Mindblank doesn't stop foresight. And no, you are counting on foresight being up. I'm utterly tired of this arbitrary restrictions that are put on the wizard.

Arbitrary? I prefer to call it "being intelligent enough to wait until the wizard's defenses are down, unless you have a death wish."


Build whatever you like. Fighter 20, 760,000 GP, No leadership as using it requires DM fiat, and no party or I get to make one as well.

Other than those few restrictions you can do whatever you want.

Does "anything you want" include:
1. major artifacts
2. dragonmarks from Eberron (they grant you spell-like abilities)

Variable Arcana
2007-04-07, 10:00 AM
Arbitrary? I prefer to call it "being intelligent enough to wait until the wizard's defenses are down, unless you have a death wish."


*blink*

So... since the wizard is also "intelligent enough" and has no "death wish" can we assume that half the time the battle will take place while the fighter has taken off his heavy armor and is sound asleep, prone, and disarmed at the start of combat?

Or is it only the wizard who has to start the combat while he's sitting on the toilet? (Because, you know, things like scrying on your enemy and teleporting to them at an opportune time is something fighters are much better at than wizards are...)


Really, you should have stopped at the part where you admitted that you had no idea how to beat a wizard 18 hours out of the day. Because at that point, as long as wizards are allowed to have wizard friends, or, say, marry another wizard... they can easily cover the 24 hours, even if your fighter somehow knows how to find the wizard's palace and gain entry to his bedchamber undetected -- which is a rather large assumption to be making with absolutely no argument presented.

PaladinBoy
2007-04-07, 10:16 AM
*blink*

So... since the wizard is also "intelligent enough" and has no "death wish" can we assume that half the time the battle will take place while the fighter has taken off his heavy armor and is sound asleep, prone, and disarmed at the start of combat?

Or is it only the wizard who has to start the combat while he's sitting on the toilet? (Because, you know, things like scrying on your enemy and teleporting to them at an opportune time is something fighters are much better at than wizards are...)

That fails to take into account the fact that the fighter is attacking the wizard. Depending on how the fighter plans and what magic items he uses, it's going to be difficult to figure out that he's your enemy until he's ready to strike.

Of course, this leads to another idea. The fighter will make his plans, unprotected from divinations, in a major city like Silverymoon or Sharn. If the wizard wants to cut that problem off before the fighter attacks, then he risks the displeasure and possibly legal action from a major power. And no, a wizard cannot defeat the military forces of an entire nation. Escape perhaps, but not defeat.


Really, you should have stopped at the part where you admitted that you had no idea how to beat a wizard 18 hours out of the day. Because at that point, as long as wizards are allowed to have wizard friends, or, say, marry another wizard... they can easily cover the 24 hours, even if your fighter somehow knows how to find the wizard's palace and gain entry to his bedchamber undetected -- which is a rather large assumption to be making with absolutely no argument presented.

Of course, then that means that your wizard can draw on the resources of 2 people, possibly to the point of a 2-on-1 fight. That's just stacking against the fighter.

And depending on how paranoid our wizard is, finding him could simply be a matter of, "Hm? That's his tower, right over there."

Clementx
2007-04-07, 10:25 AM
Immediate actions cost your swift action from your next round, so no one is casting more than one spell from Greater Celerity. Time Stop is the breaker, but you don't get a Disjunction that way safely, which means if you want to close your death trap, you need to risk initiative.

Foresight 24 hours a day requires a Greater Extend Rod and 3 lvl9 spell slots. Good luck having all the Time Stops and Disjunctions you need. And while you are never flat-footed, that does not mean you always win initiative. It means you have Uncanny Dodge, Combat Reflexes, and a couple insight bonuses.

32,760gp for a command-word 1/day Sculpted Antimagic Field item that works for 2 hours. Increase charges as your 760,000gp budget allows. In Soviet Faerun, you wrap around AMF! The fighter is immune to Disjunction unless it is cast on one specific axis that is invisible. There is no spell that tells a wizard, "You have to Disjoin the spot 15ft above the fighter's head to get line of effect to him".

Even if you don't want that, Guerrilla Fighter makes even a straight-class Fighter just as sneaky as a rogue, without the need for magical items or effects that can be negated by True Seeing. Have fun convincing your DM that you can discharge Moment of Prescience on a Spot check you don't even know you are making to get an even chance on seeing someone that pursued stealth against his class's grain. The fighter can do it just fine in the middle of a standard AMF from a command-word item. Unless your wizard floats 15ft above all surfaces 24 hours a day, anyone can mundanely sneak up on him. The Mage Slayer line can also remove his protections to murder him after you sneak up on him, although the AMF works better. Wizard gets +CL to AC once with just Mage Slayer's line.

Oh, and when you discharged your Moment of Prescience to see the Fighter, you traded the option of winning initiative and getting CL to AC to defend. So you have to Celerity-Time-Stop, which means you can't Disjoin, even if the Fighter wasn't surrounded with an AMF that blocks 80% of them.

Back to the OP, tragically, the best way for an Anti-magic character to function is with magic items and its own supernatural abilities. Forsaking them means everyone dies above lvl5 no matter what, so you have to allow them. Imagining every one to be a trophy you took from a hated arcanist or keeping starving wizards bolted to the floor cranking out your items might make it more appealing.

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 10:26 AM
Of course, then that means that your wizard can draw on the resources of 2 people, possibly to the point of a 2-on-1 fight. That's just stacking against the fighter.

And depending on how paranoid our wizard is, finding him could simply be a matter of, "Hm? That's his tower, right over there."
Who needs a tower? I have a new MMM every time I rest, wherever I decide to rest.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-07, 10:28 AM
Sure you can. It's not going to be easy to handle Solid Fog, Cloudkill and Forcecage, though. None of them have you as the spell target (Forcecage is listed as having an area, not a target) so a ring of counterspells wouldn't do you any good, and none of them allow spell resistance so the usual spell resistance/spell immunity type effects don't work either.

Okay... now let's not ridiculously gimp the fighter either.

No high-level fighter will *ever* be without a Ring of Freedom of Movement. This makes several of the spells mentioned above useless -- he ignores the Solid Fog and laughs heartily at your Black Tentacles and the Web someone suggested earlier. At 40,000 gp, it's a bargain, and no fighter with an intelligence above 5 would go up against a 20th level wizard without wearing one (or two).

The cloudkill is relatively unimportant. In principle, the fighter could wear a necklace of adaptation, but really the cloudkill is just there for fun. If the fighter can't get out of the forcecage before its duration expires, he's clearly lost the engagement, even if he survives to slink away humiliated.

However, defeating the forcecage isn't that hard, and a fighter who's going up against a 20th-level wizard ought to have planned for it. If his teleportation/dimension-dooring item doesn't work (because of the dimension lock), a rod of cancellation (or a few of them) seems like the obvious choice.

These are why the wizard needs to start out with a Disjunction spell.

Which in turn, is why any "fighter" who is going to go up against a high-level mage needs to have a really high Will save, somehow.

I'm guessing the save DC for the wizard's disjunction will be around 10+9+11+1 (assuming Int:32, and SF(Abj), but not GSF(Abj)) = DC 31.

Take a 20th level Monk: +12 (base) +8 (wis) + 5 (cloak) for +25
So each item makes its save on a roll of 6 -- 75% of the time.

Even a pure fighter, with not a single level of anything that raises his Will save will have a +6 base +4 wis + 5 cloak for +15 -- with a 25% chance of each item surviving. Give the fighter a couple of dips, getting him +2 for each one, as well as a few levels of something like Occult Slayer, and he'll do almost as well as the monk.

Not saying this fighter will WIN -- but he can certainly survive the wizard's Celerity-Time-Stop-Ubercheesiness to make the wizard exchange attacks with him for a second round, or teleport away.

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 10:30 AM
<insert Necklace of Adaptation>
Great item. Chances it survives a Disjunction?

CL7 means it has a +5 bonus, so it uses the wearers. Even Giacomos fighter (which is one of the best built archers I've seen in a while) fails a good MD save ~50% of the time.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-07, 10:33 AM
And depending on how paranoid our wizard is, finding him could simply be a matter of, "Hm? That's his tower, right over there."

Finding him wasn't the difficult part.

Sneaking into his bedchamber and getting a surprise round against him, without alerting him in any way, was the difficult part.

Heck, a bell tied to the door and an anticipate teleport spell are all that are required. Add in a nocturnal or unsleeping familiar with better than average senses, and you've got a real challenge to surprise the sleeping wizard.

A 20th level rogue can plausibly do this -- it's what he does. A 20th level fighter? Please.

(Edit: and re: planning in a city... it seems equally plausible to me that if the wizard found out about it, somehow, he could just inform the city officials. I'd imagine the fighter would be, at least, asked to leave the city -- most governments take a dim view of people using their citizens as human shields.)

Clementx
2007-04-07, 10:35 AM
Great item. Chances it survives a Disjunction?
About 30% for a Fighter that doesn't really work on his Will save or specifically arm himself with Will-boosters. And if it doesn't, he also has a 30% chance of his teleportation item surviving. And now that you chose Disjunction, you don't get to both Celerity and Time Stop that round. So you either have to try initiative fairly, risk a round, or happen to have an Epic feat.

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 10:45 AM
About 30% for a Fighter that doesn't really work on his Will save or specifically arm himself with Will-boosters. And if it doesn't, he also has a 30% chance of his teleportation item surviving. And now that you chose Disjunction, you don't get to both Celerity and Time Stop that round. So you either have to try initiative fairly, risk a round, or happen to have an Epic feat.
Celerity is an immediate action. It grants a full round fo you to do whatever you please.
During that full round, I cast Q. Disjunction, and then a maximized Time Stop.
Round 1: Dazed (because of Greater Celerity)
Round 2: Dimensional Lock
Round 3: Quickened Cloudkill + Forcecage.

Clementx
2007-04-07, 10:48 AM
Celerity is an immediate action. It grants a full round fo you to do whatever you please.
I've said it three times. Immediate actions consume your swift action for your next turn. Namely, the one that Celerity gave you. Take you pick. Time Stop OR Disjunction.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-07, 10:50 AM
So... the fighter can almost even beat a wizard if he PrC's?

Then how about the wizard? IoTSoV?

Int 32? I have a wizard at level 16 with int 38. So your DC goes up another 3. And IoTSoV requires GSF abjuration :D. So the monk now has 50-50 odds. The fighter has 5%. I'm sure your necklace will do nicely.

Unless your wizard rides a phantom steed all day? Gee, does that seem likely... Nah. Definately not./sarcasm

And your Sculpted AMF... you want custom items? You realize what that means, right?

Secondarily, do you even know how sculpt spell works? Obviously not, otherwise you'd know that doesn't work. You need mastery of shaping for that. And look. That doesn't go in magic items.

And once we throw in IoTSoV or somesuch, as the fighter can PrC, then we can laugh. Oh, you attack me? Wards. Effect is blocked. Oh, you have magic items? Eat kaleidoscopic doom.

Hell, a purple ward BLOCKS an AMF.

I guess then, with our full round action Clem, we better Maze the fighter, and ready an action for when he gets out. We can then disjoin him, followed by a celerity and time stop. No save on Maze.

Or, we can do something as suboptimal as an TK Sphere. Yeah, nice arrow there, it has... no effect. And I can still cast. Move, disjoin, TS, etc.

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 10:53 AM
Change the order above to:
Dazed
Dimensional Lock
Cloudkill
Disjunction + Quickened Forcecage

Same effect, and this order works.

PaladinBoy
2007-04-07, 10:54 AM
Finding him wasn't the difficult part.

Sneaking into his bedchamber and getting a surprise round against him, without alerting him in any way, was the difficult part.

Heck, a bell tied to the door and an anticipate teleport spell are all that are required. Add in a nocturnal or unsleeping familiar with better than average senses, and you've got a real challenge to surprise the sleeping wizard.

A 20th level rogue can plausibly do this -- it's what he does. A 20th level fighter? Please.

Even if the fighter wakes up the wizard as he breaks down the door, the wizard still has a problem, as he needs a few minutes, at least, to prepare spells. Until then, he has just about no magic.

As for the MMM, an item with see invisibility plus a rod of cancellation leaves us with one very surprised wizard.


(Edit: and re: planning in a city... it seems equally plausible to me that if the wizard found out about it, somehow, he could just inform the city officials. I'd imagine the fighter would be, at least, asked to leave the city -- most governments take a dim view of people using their citizens as human shields.)

The point of hiding in a city is not to use its citizens as human shields, the point is that most cities take a very dim view of people just popping in and launching what the city would see as an unprovoked attack. Sure, you can say that your divinations provided the evidence, but they only have your word on that, and divinations can be misdirected. If the fighter is known and liked by the government in question, then the wizard is in even more trouble. Granted, the fighter might not be around to watch the wizard in big trouble, but if his goal is only to get the wizard executed for murder, then it might work.

Also, for greater celerity plus quickened disjucntion........ I would say that that immediate action counts against the one quickened spell per round. Which round is the only round it logically fits in? The next one you take. The one which celerity granted you. Can you point to a specific passage that contradicts that?

Arbitrarity, how do you get Int 38 at level 16?

Rigeld2..... can't use disjunction under a time stop.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-07, 10:58 AM
32,760gp for a command-word 1/day Sculpted Antimagic Field item that works for 2 hours. Increase charges as your 760,000gp budget allows. In Soviet Faerun, you wrap around AMF! The fighter is immune to Disjunction unless it is cast on one specific axis that is invisible. There is no spell that tells a wizard, "You have to Disjoin the spot 15ft above the fighter's head to get line of effect to him".

This is, of course, the crux of the fighters-can-win-sometimes argument -- and I'm persuaded by it (though I know there are others who are not).

This single item -- especially if we toss out the "sculpted" part -- costs about what the wizard is spending (on top of 3 9th level slots) to negate surprise, and counters just about everything he can do, if the fighter can close to melee range. (wielding a whip (to make AoO trip attempts as the wizard attempts to get out of the AMF) or tripping or grappling... or any of a number of other options ends the battle completely)

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 10:58 AM
As for the MMM, an item with see invisibility plus a rod of cancellation leaves us with one very surprised wizard.
Find the MMM first.


Rigeld2..... can't use disjunction under a time stop.
Meant to say - since you Celerity when its not your turn, youre time stopping when its not your turn. When you come out of Time Stop, its now your turn. So do round 4 then.

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 11:00 AM
This is, of course, the crux of the fighters-can-win-sometimes argument -- and I'm persuaded by it (though I know there are others who are not).
Sure. Now, allow me to take some time to make my own custom magic items.

Oh, and cool. You have an AMF. I can still do all kinds of things to you.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-07, 11:01 AM
Change the order above to:
Dazed
Dimensional Lock
Cloudkill
Disjunction + Quickened Forcecage

Same effect, and this order works.

Ack. No it doen't. You've just used Time Stop to cast Dimensional Lock and Cloudkill and promptly dispel them both before anyone could even have noticed that they were there.

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 11:04 AM
Ack. No it doen't. You've just used Time Stop to cast Dimensional Lock and Cloudkill and promptly dispel them both before anyone could even have noticed that they were there.
Ack, youre right. Gimme a sec and I'll edit in a better order.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-07, 11:10 AM
AOO... with a whip?

Nope, doesn't threaten :D

Clementx
2007-04-07, 11:11 AM
So... the fighter can almost even beat a wizard if he PrC's?
Mage Slayer is a line of feats that requires a couple cross-class ranks. Fighters have more chances to pick them up as general feats without sacrificing combat style. Guerrilla Fighter is a feat that makes Hide and Move Silent in-class. It doesn't require PrCs or even the ever-popular 2 lvl dip into another non-casting core class.

Rigeld is still ignoring the fact, reprinted in every DnD book in the section on swift and immediate actions, that you cannot take a swift action in the round following your use of an immediate action out of turn. So no Disjunction and Time Stop together with Celerity. You need Moment of Prescience for initiative then, which means you couldn't use it to see the Fighter mundanely sneaking up on you (and he would also rock as a Dread Commando doing it in full-plate if I wanted to bring in PrCs, but I don't have to). It also means you also need Foresight up all day long to avoid the surprise round as well (which occurs before initiative is rolled). There go three lvl9 spell slots and a Greater Extend Rod (and a fourth if you want to be protected while sleeping). You can do that trick once a day by expending all your lvl9 spell slots (you would have one left if you were a Diviner with 32 Int). Its a good think that you don't die easily, or else wizards would freaking suck. And you had to use the most broken possible spells to do it.

Celerity is required to do the trick twice a day, and does not allow you do Disjoin before you seal the Fighter in a prison he can escape or ignore with any magic item you want. If you want to Disjoin, you have to spend the round dazed and hope the fighter can't charge you and that all his movement items failed their saves.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-07, 11:12 AM
Even if the fighter wakes up the wizard as he breaks down the door, the wizard still has a problem, as he needs a few minutes, at least, to prepare spells. Until then, he has just about no magic.

*blink* again.

Huh?

Assuming you've actually caught him in a "pants-down" situation, he hasn't gotten 8 hours of rest, yet. So he can't prepare anything.

But he shouldn't need to. Are you assuming that your fighter is waiting until a day comes when the wizard has been suicidally attacked by a powerful enemy and expended most of his spells, and then attacking him that night after he goes to sleep?

Because then you aren't arguing that the F20 can kill the W20, but rather that the W20 will have trouble surviving two successive attacks from two different equal-level enemies. Heck. A 20th level Fighter can't survive two successive attacks from 20th level Fighters -- he's got a 50-50 shot at the first one, and no chance at all at the second.


So... color me confused. What is the proposition you are intending to prove? That if they coordinate strikes, two or three 20th level Fighters can kill a 20th level Wizard at the cost of only one or two of them dying in the process??

Variable Arcana
2007-04-07, 11:14 AM
AOO... with a whip?

Nope, doesn't threaten :D

*blush* Of course you're right. I had wanted to avoid spiked-chain cheesiness. Oh, well. Cheesy spiked-chain it is. (Reach-tripping and Combat Reflexes are a wonderful way to prevent a de-magicked caster from fleeing.)

Aquillion
2007-04-07, 11:29 AM
AOO... with a whip?

Nope, doesn't threaten :DDrunken Master or whatever that Monk PRC is called has an ability that lets them get reach equal to the full length of whatever improvised weapon they're using (leading to absurd things like 'wielding' a thousand feet of rope with a brick tied to the end.) But even just with a ladder or a pole, the examples given in the ability description, it still might be useful against mages in some cases.


Build whatever you like. Fighter 20, 760,000 GP, No leadership as using it requires DM fiat, and no party or I get to make one as well.Honestly? If you're going to forbid leadership abuse, you sorta have to stop using Celerity, too. It's just as bad, and any DM who is going to stop you from using Leadership as written is never going to let you use Celerity as written, either. If we're banning "things you can never get away with in actual play with a competent DM", using either version of Celerity is pretty similar to talking the King to Fanatic...

No Shapechange or Polymorph-line abuse for the same reason. We all know Wizards have several broken spells (particularly Celerity); the idea here is to tell if the class is broken, not those spells in particular.

Also, don't forget that the fighter can carry redundant versions of key objects. That pushes the chance of one surviving a Disjunction above 50%.


Other than those few restrictions you can do whatever you want. O-kay. I take Commoner 20, Divine Rank 20. You can say you attack me while I'm asleep if you want. :smallbiggrin:

(Incidently, the wizard can still win this one. Get Ice Assassin and Eschew Materials, then cast Ice Assassin three times to create three exact duplicates of me with the sole purpose of killing me. In fact, I can't think of any situation where that won't let the wizard win... anything anyone else can do, the wizard can throw back at them an arbitrary number of times. But this is one of those "things you'll never get away with" again.)

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 11:30 AM
Rigeld is still ignoring the fact, reprinted in every DnD book in the section on swift and immediate actions, that you cannot take a swift action in the round following your use of an immediate action out of turn. So no Disjunction and Time Stop together with Celerity. You need Moment of Prescience for initiative then, which means you couldn't use it to see the Fighter mundanely sneaking up on you (and he would also rock as a Dread Commando doing it in full-plate if I wanted to bring in PrCs, but I don't have to). It also means you also need Foresight up all day long to avoid the surprise round as well (which occurs before initiative is rolled). There go three lvl9 spell slots and a Greater Extend Rod (and a fourth if you want to be protected while sleeping). You can do that trick once a day by expending all your lvl9 spell slots. Its a good think that you don't die easily, or else wizards would freaking suck.
Wow! Thanks for insulting me. I'm not ignoring anything, I had forgotten that (I dont often play Wizards, or anything else that uses immediate actions).
MoP doesnt work on init.
I dont need to be protected while slepping because itd be impossible to find me while im sleeping.
If you look at my posts, I'm revising the original order.

KoDT69
2007-04-07, 11:30 AM
OK the biased opinions really show. Just because WotC overpowered wizards because they themselves are biased, all of the powergamers side with the wizard class and defend it to the death. Guess what, that Disjunction operating off of a Will Save means less when the fighter has a high CON score and Steadfast Determination combined with a Cloak of Resistance +5? Well we now add 40% more to that 30% base success rate. Better odds. Now the fighter can use stuff like multiple rods of cancellation (very cheap at 11,000gp) and necklace of adaptation to avoid the forcecage/cloudkill combo. Hmm give the fighter a Rod of Negation and he targets the Rod of Quicken. Now what? There goes your combo. Try to win initiative now. Throw in some Immovable Rods for utility, potions of fly, boots of speed, ring of jumping, a few Lavendar & Green Ioun stones.
And all the divinations in the wizard's book can't counteract this one fact... The fighter didn't make it to 20th level and NOT fight wizards before. He will know they can divine crap, so he tells all the local people in town there is a reward for the death of the wizard. Each day he specifies different terms and different dates on when the wizard needs to be killed. This serves no purpose of involving other NPC's to fight, they scramble the divinations of the wizard. How you ask? When the wizard casts Contact Other Plane and asks if he will be attacked, the answer will be yes. He won't be able to decicively pinpoint our fighter, a time, or a place because now you have upwards of 50,000 people planning his death. Hah. You're 88% accuracy can't pinpoint 50,000 attemps on your life with 100% accuracy. Period. Not all fighters are stupid, and unless the DM is biased toward the wizard, a win is possible. Besides, just because a wizard is level 20 does not mean he has access to every spell in all the books printed. Celerity is not on the SRD so I venture to say it's not core. I at least am using core only in this post.

Aquillion
2007-04-07, 11:40 AM
Like I said above, though... can we try this without Celerity? We all know Celerity is broken, and it often won't be allowed. If you're going to throw it around you might as well use Shapechange or say you're turning into Pun-Pun and be done with it.

The idea is to make a general wizard-killing strategy, not to examine one broken spell.

Clementx
2007-04-07, 11:42 AM
Wow! Thanks for insulting me. I'm not ignoring anything, I had forgotten that (I dont often play Wizards, or anything else that uses immediate actions).
MoP doesnt work on init.
I dont need to be protected while slepping because itd be impossible to find me while im sleeping.
If you look at my posts, I'm revising the original order.
Sorry, I didn't see your edits. We are all simul-posting here after all. You are still going to have trouble.

Personally, I don't think MoP should work on initiative, but I was giving the wizard the benefit of the doubt. So he is even worse off- he can either go first, or disjoin. Also keep in mind he is burning 3 or 4 Foresights a day as a matter of course, so he needs to prepare more every day.

And Variable Arcana, if a Fighter wins the first fight, he is about 5,000gp worth of potions away from being back to his pinnacle of combat for the next fight (in the rare situation were he hasn't acquired Fast Healing from somewhere). More fights per day = Fighter's benefit. He can't go nova, so his only limitation is HP, which is ridiculously easy to replenish.

And yes, you need to be protected while you are sleeping. Scrying and dispelling can be done through magic items, making your Mansion not that hard to find, even if you are forcing a Fighter that had to have allies to get too lvl20 to do it all himself.

And Aqullion, if you don't want to use Celerity because it is broken, then we have to get rid of Time Stop, too, because it is four times as worse and is the only thing that makes Celerity really broken. Wizards are barely holding the high ground going nova with the most broken material, and don't have the high ground. If you want to give them the high ground, you have to ditch Time Stop as well, which makes this a very even duel/arena/completely absurd and swingy fight. As even as a CR+4 encounter can be (and even that standard is throwing out the assumption of parties to deal with CR).

Illiterate Scribe
2007-04-07, 11:44 AM
Wizard cheese is not what the OP asked for.


Okay. What I want is to make a warrior-type who hates magic. What I need is a class or PrC that is designed to neutralize or take out spell casters. The caveat: the class shouldn't have magical or spellcasting powers/abilities. Any ideas? Oh, and I'm looking for classes, not magic items.

And on a related note... the two "mage killer" classes (Mage Killer PrC from Forgotten Realms and Suel Arcanamach PrC from Complete Arcane) that I am aware of both seem more like "make your mage better" classes rather than "kill the enemy spellcaster easier" classes. What up with that?

Thank you for your consideration.

Sentient (+1LA?) Winged (+2LA) Living Spell (+0LA, some HD) [pick the centre of the spire. Warning - this will also allow you to ignore all magic - items, psionics, even Salient Divine Abilities] Warblade (which is one of the best non - magical damage dealers) with VoP (you're not going to use magic items anyway, and the recent FAQ ruled its effects to be Ex, not Su). Congratulations - you now have a character who can fly after wizards, debuff them by hugging, walk merrily through prismatic walls, and generally eat casters for breakfast - fairly unusual build, though.

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 11:46 AM
And yes, you need to be protected while you are sleeping. Scrying and dispelling can be done through magic items, making your Mansion not that hard to find, even if you are forcing a Fighter that had to have allies to get too lvl20 to do it all himself.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm
or heck, even better
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm

Good luck scrying!

Clementx
2007-04-07, 11:51 AM
Good luck scrying!
Good luck Nondetecting everything distinctive you own but don't carry on your person 24 hours a day every single day without using all your Lvl4+ spell slots! If you take off anything to sleep, you are getting found.

You aren't going to have money to buy all these Rods- you will be spending all your gold on psychiatrists to deal with your anxiety disorders and paranoia that prevents you from taking off your backpack to sleep.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-07, 11:59 AM
Ah, core only. Ok, so the fighter gets everything prepared specifically to win on a wizard, then gets NPC to help distract the wizard, then eventually goes after the wizard, with his stuff prepared to kill the wizard, that he knows about. Somehow.

No bias here, not at all.

What's this steadfast determination with core only crap? Oh, I'm core only. My fighter has steadfast determination! 30% base sucess? Not according to my build.

No bias. Not at all. The wizard of course, does nothing like asking... the first name of the mastermind behind the plot on his life. The last name?

And 88% sucess is better when it's actually a 0.12^10 % chance of failure. Per casting. And say, legend lore? Vision?

I'm a fighter! I use *magic* items to kill wizards. I wish I could do what they do, because then I would actually have an idea what's going on!

How about Private Sanctum?

Aquillion
2007-04-07, 12:01 PM
And Aqullion, if you don't want to use Celerity because it is broken, then we have to get rid of Time Stop, too, because it is four times as worse and is the only thing that makes Celerity really broken. Wizards are barely holding the high ground going nova with the most broken material, and don't have the high ground. If you want to give them the high ground, you have to ditch Time Stop as well, which makes this a very even duel/arena/completely absurd and swingy fight. As even as a CR+4 encounter can be (and even that standard is throwing out the assumption of parties to deal with CR).Nah, Time Stop is very powerful, but it isn't necessarily broken. (Although metamagic rods badly need an errata that they can't be used to cast a spell whose total metamagic costs would normally bring it above 9. Several metamagic abilities were pretty clearly designed with that limit in place. But that's minor next to Celerity.)

What makes Celerity broken is that it completely breaks the initiative system, much like how Assay Spell Resistance breaks the SR system. It's fine for wizards to cast spells that give benefits, but initiative is one of their main limiting factors, and something people devote whole feats and sections of their class progression to focusing on just for a small bonus--a single spell that says 'I always win initiative' is as bad as a spell that says 'I have infinite hp' or 'I can cast unlimited spells'. It breaks an entire major facet of the D&D combat system, and should never be allowed in a game.

Basically, making a strategy for a wizard using Celerity is every bit as broken as saying 'I abuse diplomacy and convince the king to give me all the resources in the kingdom' or 'I turn myself into Pun-Pun.' They're both in RAW, sure, but they're too badly broken to use in an actual game, and the point here isn't to focus on one broken spell or skill.

We know celerity is broken. The question is, are wizards broken, or are they just a class with a single broken spell?

...the wizard can probably still win, mind. I just object to doing it with Celerity.

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 12:02 PM
Good luck Nondetecting everything distinctive you own but don't carry on your person 24 hours a day every single day without using all your Lvl4+ spell slots! If you take off anything to sleep, you are getting found.

You aren't going to have money to buy all these Rods- you will be spending all your gold on psychiatrists to deal with your anxiety disorders and paranoia that prevents you from taking off your backpack to sleep.
You cant cast Scry on an object. Using Clairaudience/Clairvoyance wont work because the spell requries that "the locale must be known—a place familiar to you or an obvious one."

And you didnt adress the fact that Mindblank, a 24 hour duration spell, totally negates scrying.

Clementx
2007-04-07, 12:05 PM
Nah, Time Stop is very powerful, but it isn't necessarily broken.
What would you call a spell that lets you cast three and a half spells of any level (and the most powerful spells are the ones that it allows- those that have indirect effects and durations) before anyone can react to them (which is equivalent to Quickening them all, making it 3.5 lvl13 spells and three epic feats to do it any other way) for a lvl9 spell slot? 3.5 is an average, and doesn't include Quickened spells you can cast while Time Stop is giving you an equivalent advantage of already Quickening the first 3.5 without paying any cost.

KoDT69
2007-04-07, 12:09 PM
Oh well the fighter don't have to give his real name to anybody. As far as I know a lie is DC: 0 in casual conversation. So the wizard knows his real name and the name on the street is the misdirection that still foils the divination chain. So drop steadfast determination and move the higher attribute to WIS, DUH. That was hard. Same effect. And as far as all his stuff against the wizard... NOT. The grand total of the items I suggested using is only about 120,000gp or less out of 780,000gp available. Besides, a competant fighter knows he is weak against wizards in general and would know powerful spells to avoid, or he would not have made it to level 20. Is that so hard to believe that a fighter requires NO DIVINATION OR SPELL ABILITY to simply know a 20th level wizard could cast a forcecage? No, he'd only need it done to him once to know a wizard COULD do it. And he's not preparing for you specifically, he's prepared for arcane casters of any variety. Any intelligently played character can survive and win any challenge if you do it right.

Aquillion
2007-04-07, 12:11 PM
Again... Time Stop is very powerful, but Celerity takes one of the key aspects of D&D combat and says, in effect 'I always win this roll. No exceptions.' That's broken on a whole different level from simply taking extra actions or casting extra spells.

(Hmm, here's an idea. I was thinking Celerity can't be saved by erratas, even, but how about this: "You cannot cast spells, use spell-like abilities, or use objects that cast spells during the round granted by Celerity." Makes it fairly useless most of the time, but it could still possibly save you in an emergency when you just need to get out of the way to avoid getting killed in the surprise round.)

Clementx
2007-04-07, 12:12 PM
You cant cast Scry on an object. And you didnt adress the fact that Mindblank, a 24 hour duration spell, totally negates scrying.
Your familiar is a creature. Your friends are creatures. You Mindblanking everyone that knows where you sleep or joins you in that huge mansion of yours every single day? Intimidate and BAB are good for cutting fingers off people until they tell you what you know. And guess what? Fighters have all that in class. Or are you just Greater-Teleporting from your study to a hidden cave and sleeping in the mansion there?

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 12:14 PM
Or are you just Greater-Teleporting from your study to a hidden cave and sleeping in the mansion there?
Exactly. And yeah, I'll Mindblank my familiar, if I have one, tho I rarely do.

KoDT69
2007-04-07, 12:18 PM
Anybody remember the old InQuest magazine? Maybe the wizard has a buttweasel for a familiar, in that case you might not want to find it :smallamused:

Clementx
2007-04-07, 12:21 PM
Exactly. And yeah, I'll Mindblank my familiar, if I have one, tho I rarely do.
You are spending quite a few spell slots here. Do us a favor and list your daily survival and protection spells for a lvl20 wizard with appropriate wealth, including those three lvl7 spells you use to make your bed each night. See how many you have left. There are a lot of Mindblanks, Foresights, Prescience, Nondetection, Overlanding, and such going on. Let's see how much room you have to go nova when a challenger finally gets to you.

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 12:25 PM
Actually, the only ones required are a Mind Blank, a MMM, and a Overland Flight/Phantom Steed.

Are you allowing custom magic items?

KoDT69
2007-04-07, 12:33 PM
No customs, no Leadership, no outside NPC help, no Celerity IIRC. Now can we all just take a break to enjoy...
DELICIOUS SORCERER'S FRUIT PIES?

Draz74
2007-04-07, 01:20 PM
Wizards are barely holding the high ground going nova with the most broken material, and don't have the high ground. If you want to give them the high ground, you have to ditch Time Stop as well, which makes this a very even duel/arena/completely absurd and swingy fight. As even as a CR+4 encounter can be (and even that standard is throwing out the assumption of parties to deal with CR).

Good news: You're right, the arguments people are making here are pretty rediculous, in that the wizards are using up HUGE amounts of their resources to go "nova" for this one duel. It's unrealistic.

Bad news: The wizards who are nova-ing like that aren't "barely holding the high ground," as in barely beating their fighter opponents in these imaginary duels. They're UTTERLY SLAUGHTERING THEM.

It's too bad these debates keep spiraling into the "Beat the Celerity/Timestop/Disjunction/Cloudkill/Forcecage combo" thing, because that's a very farfetched situation. Unfortunately, it's just masking the fact that, without using unrealistic amounts of resources, or broken spells, the wizard still has too good a chance of beating a noncaster of his level. Just not a 100% chance -- more like 80%. Or 90% if he uses borderline-broken spells.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-07, 01:49 PM
Few miscellaneous points:

1) The way to prevent the MMM from being located by any divination or scrying is the 24-hr duration 5th level spell Private Sanctum.

2) It doesn't take two castings of Mind Blank to include your familiar -- you get that for free.

3) I'm pretty sure no two of the people arguing here are debating the same proposition. That makes this pretty pointless.

4) Wizards>Fighters is definitely true at 20th level -- it doesn't appear to be true at 10th level, if the current Battle of the Classes is to be believed.

Clementx
2007-04-07, 01:49 PM
Actually, the only ones required are a Mind Blank, a MMM, and a Overland Flight/Phantom Steed.

Mind Blank for you (and your familiar if you never let it get more than 5ft from you). If you are flying to where you rest, it is even easier to follow you. You don't even need scrying to do that. So the noncaster just uses his own flight item to tail you, and Cancels your Mansion a couple hours after you enter it. I said you needed Greater Teleport because that is what you need to force noncasters into an uphill battle of divination. So list the spells and the number of Greater Rods you need to maintain your assumed wizardly advantage. Its more than you claim.

Oh, and Draz, I didn't mean higher ground as in tactical advantage. They do have quite a bit of that, but "slaughtering" requires their opponents to be ill-equipped, unprepared, and failing all their saves and SR (and YES, many of the spells are avoidable, which makes many of them fine spells for their level). I meant the moral high ground of claiming that wizards are innately superior with properly balanced spells. No lvl9 spell is close to Time Stop and Disjunction (besides Gating for infinite wishes which has its own issues).

Jalil
2007-04-07, 01:55 PM
If you want to fight, start doing it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2344191#post2344191). Someone make up the rules, and we'll see what happens.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-07, 02:11 PM
Clement, the noncaster doesn't have any items that let him fly as fast.

Also, you can't cancel a Magnificent Mansion.

Roland St. Jude
2007-04-07, 02:18 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: I'm not sure this thread is even salvageable, but let's try. Please:

Stay on topic (the OPs stated topic - not the subsequent how wizards win topic)
Don't insult others
Don't vigilante moderate the thread

Thank you.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-07, 04:02 PM
Is Celerity core? I can't find it in the SRD.

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 05:07 PM
Spell Compendium, not sure where before that.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-07, 05:57 PM
PHB 2 actually .It might have made it into the SC but I doubt it. And Since Roland has spoken I will not be responding to any of what has been said in this thread since my last post.

Jasdoif
2007-04-07, 06:47 PM
OK, sorry, to the original question. Let me think here....

If you want the best chance at being a non-magic spellcaster slayer, a ranged weapon with a nice range increment (longbow, heavy crossbow, etc.) is definitely the way to go. Anything that improves your ranged attacks will be useful. Use armor spikes if you want a melee weapon alongside your (cross)bow, for those melee/grappling situations.

Occult Slayer, in Complete Warrior, is based around the concept of destroying spellcasters in general, as was mentioned way back in the beginning of the thread.

The Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) (which is a SRD version of the Illithid Slayer) has a number of abilities that can be useful thanks to magic/psionic transparency (this was mentioned earlier as well). See if the DM will allow you to select a type of spellcasting creature instead of a psionic one. It's worth noting that while the class requires a power point reserve, it does not require the ability to use powers (though it will improve that capability if you have it). A psionic race or picking up the Wild Talent feat will let you meet that. So if your concept doesn't allow manifesting either, this is still applicable.

If you aren't adverse to using magic items to simulate spellcasting, getting the Use Magic Device skill will help out. If you're human, a level in human paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) will let you designate a skill that will always be a class skill for you; you can make it UMD.

I'm not aware of any good ranged weapon PrC that will help you out here, the thirty-foot range limit on most precision damage can be quite limiting, but then I'm behind on supplements, maybe someone else has a suggestion in this department.

silentknight
2007-04-08, 12:18 PM
Boy, would you look at the size of that snowball.

As the kindly Moderator referenced above, this no longer seems like a discussion of non-magical anti-spellcaster options for my character. Thanks anyway!

Caledonian
2007-04-08, 01:10 PM
Here's a strange thought: what if you made "Spellcasters" one of the potential Favored Enemies of Rangers, and changed the skills you get bonus on when using them against a FE?

The Ranger class is already one that's all about learning how to defeat a group of hated foes. What if you either make magic-hating Rangers or use the base class as a rudimentary template for constructing your own?

ZekeArgo
2007-04-08, 01:39 PM
Here's a strange thought: what if you made "Spellcasters" one of the potential Favored Enemies of Rangers, and changed the skills you get bonus on when using them against a FE?

The Ranger class is already one that's all about learning how to defeat a group of hated foes. What if you either make magic-hating Rangers or use the base class as a rudimentary template for constructing your own?

Thats already in the Complete Mage. Problem still comes when you have a ranger who gets... what +10 damage per hit at 20th level who has no real ability to reach said arcanist unless its of the non-full caster variety.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-08, 05:23 PM
To kill casters you need:
Mobility, the ability to escape detection, and good saves, mobility being key. A monk (perhaps VoP, so as to avoid the disjunction stuff altogether) that has flight as an extraordinary ability as well as the ability to see invisibility.

Of course, cloudkill + forcecage will still crush you. VoP may not be such a great idea, since it's likely you'll need to dimension door out of a tight spot. But then, if you hate magic, why are you using magic items. So VoP may be necessary.


Again I ask, are you counting psionics as powers? Can you use magic items?

Ryuuk
2007-04-08, 06:18 PM
What about a Martial Adept? Flavor wise, maneuvers are the result of discipline and training, and are nonmagical (with some exceptions). Mechanically,a Warblade with stuff like Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactic, Diamond Mind Counters and Shadow Blink (Though you would need Martial Study) could stand up to a caster pretty well.

Aquillion
2007-04-08, 09:43 PM
Ah, yeah, I just noticed the OP said the character should 'hate magic'. Are psionics ok?

Specifically, how about a Psychic Warrior? They have many of the abilities a mage-killer needs. They have lots of mobility, including hustle and personal dimension door to thwart forcecage; they can Freedom of Movement themselves, boost their saves with Defensive Precognition, totally protect themselves from mental effects and scrying with Personal Mind Blank, plus a few other random things that may help against casters like protecting themselves from dispel magic via Dispelling Buffer or warding against energy in a variety of ways. And, in general, the versitility of being a caster-like class will help you when fighting magic users.

They have one major limitation: No normal flying. They can levitate, walk on the walls, and fly in an Ectoplasmic Form, but all have severe limitations. Consider using Expanded Knowledge to get Psionic Fly from the Nomad list.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-09, 05:37 AM
They can dimension door as a move action, if they're willing to put all the pts into augmenting it, which means they could DD & grapple a flying wizard, or DD, stab, and catfall or something.

Would you say the Slayer PrC's 6th level ability, Cerebral Blind protects from Celerity?

lord_khaine
2007-04-09, 06:27 AM
thats a good question, personaly i would belive that mind blank would block the effect of Foresight, but i hasnt seen anything official on it.

btw, where is that Celerity spell found?

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-09, 07:31 AM
PHB2, and possibly the magic compendium. Just asked that question in this vary thread.

And yeah, I guess I meant Foresight.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-09, 02:27 PM
They can dimension door as a move action, if they're willing to put all the pts into augmenting it, which means they could DD & grapple a flying wizard, or DD, stab, and catfall or something.

Would you say the Slayer PrC's 6th level ability, Cerebral Blind protects from Celerity?
DD ends your turn. Whether or not its swift/quickened/or immediate. It ends your turn.

Aquillion
2007-04-09, 02:55 PM
DD ends your turn. Whether or not its swift/quickened/or immediate. It ends your turn.It does worse than that:

After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.You can't even take immediate actions until then, which can actually matter to a psionic character.

...that said, this sounds like an excellent place for a houserule. Maybe add a feat, 'dimensional charge' or something similar, that lets you make a charge attack as you appear via a dimension door? In order to do this, you would have to pay to dimension door as a move action as part of the charge, of course, and spend the normal full-round action overall.

Clementx
2007-04-09, 05:56 PM
Maybe add a feat, 'dimensional charge' or something similar, that lets you make a charge attack as you appear via a dimension door?
The Sun School does this as part of its tactical maneuvers. It would be a good place to start, and strip down the prerequisites and extra maneuvers that only really work if you are a monk.