The Theurge... finally playable! (WIP)

[Tarrab]

Well, I´ve always hated the fact that the Mystic Theurge Prc was just so lame to both acquire and to play, so I thought why shouldn´t we get something like it for 5th edition as a Wizard Arcane Tradition. Tell me what you think!

New Arcane Tradition: Theurge

The Theurge is a wizard that opens his ways to a different type of casting, losing some specialization for the capacity to cast spells both divine and arcane.

Delver of Magic

At level 2 you can change a cantrip you know for a Cleric Cantrip of your choice. Every time you gain a cantrip you can choose a Cleric cantrip instead of a wizard one. From level 2 onward when you gain a level, one of the spells you learn must be a spell from the Cleric list and one of the Wizard list. All spells use your Intelligence modifier and count as Wizard spells.

Divine Magician

At level 6 when you use a spell slot, you can choose two spells of a lower level to be cast, one must be divine and the other arcane. For example if you use a 3rd level spell slot you can cast a 2nd level arcane spell and a 1st level divine spell or viceversa. When using this ability you can only cast spells that have the same target (area, one target or self) and both spells must be inside their maximum range. Both spells have to be of the same duration to work together. If the spells have an area of affect, the area for both spells is the area of the smallest spell. You cannot use cantrips with this ability. Once you use this ability you cannot use it again until you finish a short rest.

Theurge Savant

At level 10 when you use your Divine Magician ability, you can spend an additional spell slot to increase the DC of the saving throw against both spells by the number of the spell slot used. The spell slot expended cannot be higher than half your proficiency bonus rounded down. You can also use Divine Magician twice per short rest.

Mystic Apotheosis

At level 14 you can cast one spell from your arcane list and one spell from your divine list by spending a single spell slot, and both spells can be of that spell slot´s level. You can do this with low level spells that can be empowered by spell slot use. The spells don´t have to share a target, no matter if they have a single target, an area target or a target of self. You can use this ability once per long rest. You cannot use Theurge Savant with this ability. You can also use Divine Magician thrice per short rest.

OR (and probable choice)

At level 14 you can keep concentration on two spells at the same time, as long as one spell comes from your Wizard list and one spell comes from your Cleric list. You can also use Divine Magician thrice per short rest.

So... shoot :smallwink:

[DiBastet]

Delver of Magic: I would ditch the extra prepared spells and all the baggage and just say that besides your cantrips when you level up one your free spells may be a cleric spell. That's already a lot. Don't forget the very important line: "If you choose to learn a spell that doesn’t appear on the wizard spell list, the spell is nonetheless a wizard spell for you".

Divine Magician: If this guys is actually kind of a divine caster, why not give him channel divinity and an option from a chosen domain?

Theurge Savant: Well, I've seem that happen a lot on subclasses these days, so as I said before I'll say again: "if you think "this ability will add some pure numbers", then your ability is already a bad ability in this system". Avoid "+x" abilities at all costs. If you can't come up with anything besides a +x ability, then think again and come up with something besides a +x ability. That breaks bounded accuracy, something this edition tries very hard to keep.

Mystic Apotheosis: You know, once per short rest being able to cast a cleric spell as a bonus action after casting a wizard spell would already be a good capstone...


I think you missed the power level and design philosophy here man. It can be fixed however.

[Tarrab]

Delver of Magic: I would ditch the extra prepared spells and all the baggage and just say that besides your cantrips when you level up one your free spells may be a cleric spell. That's already a lot. Don't forget the very important line: "If you choose to learn a spell that doesn’t appear on the wizard spell list, the spell is nonetheless a wizard spell for you".

Divine Magician: If this guys is actually kind of a divine caster, why not give him channel divinity and an option from a chosen domain?

Theurge Savant: Well, I've seem that happen a lot on subclasses these days, so as I said before I'll say again: "if you think "this ability will add some pure numbers", then your ability is already a bad ability in this system". Avoid "+x" abilities at all costs. If you can't come up with anything besides a +x ability, then think again and come up with something besides a +x ability. That breaks bounded accuracy, something this edition tries very hard to keep.

Mystic Apotheosis: You know, once per short rest being able to cast a cleric spell as a bonus action after casting a wizard spell would already be a good capstone...


I think you missed the power level and design philosophy here man. It can be fixed however.

The point of Delver of Magic is to give you a bit more versatility without allowing a caster to learn every single cleric and wizard spell. It also forces you to have less higher level spells every time you level up and to become more of a generalist... I kinda like it as it is.

Divine Magician´s point is to do what the Mystic Theurge used to do. I am changing it to once per short rest though, with an additional use on levels 10 and 14.

Theurge Savant is preety powerful, true, but does cost spell slots that can be used to cast more spells. I think it might need revision, but since Divine Magician is gonna be limited, for now I´ll leave it as is.

Mystic Apotheosis is kinda OP, and I came up with a different version of it... I can´t decide between the two...

In any case, back to correction.

[Twelvetrees]

This response is for your question in your other thread about this subclass. Sorry if that causes some confusion.

Anyway, my suggestion was to replace Theurge Savant with something similar to Sorcerer metamagic. The specific example I can think of to suggest to replace the DC boost with would be something close to Heightened Spell. Something like "one target of this spell has disadvantage on its saving throw if it failed its save against the first spell of the pair."

That's a little vague, but should give you some ideas. It would also require you to specify which spell is cast first when both are cast, which is probably something you should do anyway, to clear up some ambiguities.