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StickMan
2007-04-06, 09:29 PM
I've been looking at this game a little and wanted to know what ever one here thinks about the game befor I start throughing money at it?

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-06, 09:38 PM
Fun. I'm supposed to be in a game here but the GM never got back tome about whether or not my background was good.

More balanced than regular D&D and it actually uses the D20 license in a good way.

Piccamo
2007-04-06, 09:46 PM
Yeah, its alot of fun. It is a well-balanced, semi-level based game. You really feel superhuman even by Power Level 6 or 7.

PnP Fan
2007-04-07, 01:07 AM
I concur. That will be well spent money, especially as the GM. It has the best balance of pretty much any game I've ever played. Highly customizeable, and written with the level of care and detail that I wish all games were written with. You'll have to supply most of your own flavor though (which I prefer anyway. . ). Unlike many of the other games out there that attempt to mimic the powers of specific characters in their respective comic book universes, MnM does an excellent job of giving you the framework to reproduce those settings and characters, while not forcing you to use any one setting's flavor. Not sure how clear that was. . . it's late.
Also, if you are into non-standard settings where powers aren't just straight comic book powers, I highly recommend the Mastermind's Manual. It has some excellent options for changing the rules of your setting to allow for peculiar game effects. For example, it includes rules for powers that cause the user to become "tainted" in some fashion, or for characters to have "power pools" so that they can't fight unlimited lengths of time.

I apologize if this post is poorly assembled, it's late, and I need sleep. If you want more info, or clarifications, PM me.

Zherog
2007-04-07, 06:50 AM
I'm not a comic book/super hero fan - and I find M&M to be a very fun game.

fireinthedust
2007-04-07, 07:03 AM
Also: what edition are you using?

I've only used 1st edition, and it's great. Here on the boards, too. Easily the best single-volume rpg book I've ever bought. You can do just aobut anything with it, really. I hear 2nd edition was even better, which is incredible.

Thing is, gameplay wise, it really gets the comic book feel to it, especially the combat. saving throws each strike to see if you go down means more rping, more action in less time.

It's also really free. You don't have set CRs because it's situational: I could have a batman character or a superman powerhouse; but they'd both have the same number of points spent in different ways and focused on different things.

Khantalas
2007-04-07, 02:07 PM
I like M&M. If you see my signature, you'll see how much.

Indon
2007-04-07, 05:04 PM
I agree that it lends itself quite well to the superhero scene.

Green Bean
2007-04-07, 05:17 PM
I love the system, especially the way you start off at a fairly decent level of power. Right from the beginning (if you're super strength focused) you can pick up and clock someone with a lampost, or (if you're speed focused) outrun a car.

Desaril
2007-04-07, 10:39 PM
I've played several superhero games over the years, but I've only played M&M once. I thought it was a great book and does a pretty good job with the d20 system. I did have problems of scale; the game doesn't accept the broad levels of superhero power. Like Fireinthedust said, Superman and Batman can have the same power points. To me that's ludicrous, because one is a normal guy the other is not (by a longshot).

Also, like any level-based game it ignores the fact that comic book heroes don't really change in power (except plot based temporary changes). Over the last 40 years, most comic book staples are still around the same power level. In any campaign, the characters will rapidly get new/better powers as they level up.

Extra_Crispy
2007-04-08, 04:59 AM
I've played several superhero games over the years, but I've only played M&M once. I thought it was a great book and does a pretty good job with the d20 system. I did have problems of scale; the game doesn't accept the broad levels of superhero power. Like Fireinthedust said, Superman and Batman can have the same power points. To me that's ludicrous, because one is a normal guy the other is not (by a longshot).


How is having Batman and Superman with the same points ludicrous. As was said before they would have just specialized in different areas. Superman would have taken super strength, protection, energy beams, and flight this would have taken LOTS of points to get them to the levels of Superman. In Batman's case, many skills and feats, the man knows just about everything and is a far better straight up fighter then Superman. Plus lots of points into wealth (having the resources he has), contacts, gadgets, his car and plane, ect. All of this would take LOTS of points also. Thus having the same points is right they just spent them differently

Now back to about M&M, great game but as someone that has GMed it before, watch out for the multiple power. It allows characters to make multiples of themselves and with a few of the extras you can pop out 100's in one round. This combined with a blast power, say simply energy blast, is a villian hord killer.
Round 1 -- 20 villians/hirelings jump the 5 heroes, doing minor damage
Round 2 -- multiple guy spits out 100 duplicates of himself, and heroes take out a hireling or 2 (maybe more)
Round 3 -- Depending on who goes first:
Badguys -- either heroes get some more minor damage or a few duplicates take damge or get KOed
Multiple guy -- try 100 shots at 20 (probably less) hirelings. 5 shots each, they are ALL done
Battle over

StickMan
2007-04-08, 06:39 AM
I've played several superhero games over the years, but I've only played M&M once. I thought it was a great book and does a pretty good job with the d20 system. I did have problems of scale; the game doesn't accept the broad levels of superhero power. Like Fireinthedust said, Superman and Batman can have the same power points. To me that's ludicrous, because one is a normal guy the other is not (by a longshot).

Also, like any level-based game it ignores the fact that comic book heroes don't really change in power (except plot based temporary changes). Over the last 40 years, most comic book staples are still around the same power level. In any campaign, the characters will rapidly get new/better powers as they level up.

I have to agree with crispy. Superman has raw powers yes but batman has tons and tons of skills that superman can't even imagin. Also I disagree with you on how the level does not fit with comic books. Hero's constanly train to gain more skill with there powers and they do gain new ones, you just don't see a little thing that pops over there head and says now level 13. Spiderman just gained a host of new powers for example that are here to stay. If you read X-men they often develop new abilitys or there powers get stronger for example when Ema Frost took the controls off Helllions abilities. Ironman keeps getting more upgrades. I can keep going to, yes I know these are all Marvel but I'm not a big DC fan.

kailin
2007-04-08, 03:12 PM
Genius. I love M&M.

Beleriphon
2007-04-08, 04:09 PM
I have to agree with crispy. Superman has raw powers yes but batman has tons and tons of skills that superman can't even imagin. Also I disagree with you on how the level does not fit with comic books. Hero's constanly train to gain more skill with there powers and they do gain new ones, you just don't see a little thing that pops over there head and says now level 13. Spiderman just gained a host of new powers for example that are here to stay. If you read X-men they often develop new abilitys or there powers get stronger for example when Ema Frost took the controls off Helllions abilities. Ironman keeps getting more upgrades. I can keep going to, yes I know these are all Marvel but I'm not a big DC fan.


Just to help clarify M&M 2nd Edition (being the one I would recommend) is a point based game. There are a few things that you need to keep eye on, but they are generally mentioned as being cheesy in the books, but included for completeness sake.

The concept of "levels" or rather power level is a balancing tool for the game system. It works independently of both the number of points a charcter can have, as well as the overall power of a character. To expalin in more detail the default assumption for a starting hero is that you are Power Level 10 and get 150 points to build your character. What this means is that you stats have maximums, skill ranks have maximums, and you can't do more than a certain amount of damage in combat, or have a certain to hit bonus. Same for your defensive abilities. You can still be power level 10 and have 5000 points to spend a charcter, that character isn't any more "powerful" but they are going to be far more versatile.

To use a few examples from comic books, since that is what they system is designed around. Spider-Man is generally accepted by the good people at the Atomic Think Tank (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/) to be a prototypical PL10 character. So might Wolverine, Shadowcat or Cyclops. Each is very different in terms of abilities, but when compared to each other as a group they are fairly well balanced in terms of abilities and overall strengths and versatility.

On the concept of Superman and Batman being build on the same number of points. I've seen it done, and done well. My personal builds for both of them have Batman being more expensive than Superman in terms of points, but Superman is a higher power level because of how much damage and can deal. Does make them equal, of course not. In a straight fight Superman wins because Batman can't really hurt Superman. As a team though Batman excels at setting up Superman for massive take down attacks. Batman is also a consummate goon sweeper, he can clear a room of thugs faster than Superman can (from a rules stand point mind you) because that it was his stats emphasize. Superman emphasizes big hits on big enemies, so he can take Darkseid one on one, a feat Batman could never achieve.

An important thing to keep in mind about M&M is that it is an effects based system. That means you decide what your power does, and then apply a description. So Mr Freeze's ice gun, Spider-Man's webs and Gluemaster's glue balls are all the same basic effect when they stick somebody to the ground. The same is true of any damage effect so Wolverine's claws or Lady Shiva's sword are both melee damage effects. To use a D&D analogy fireball and magic missile are the same basic power (a Blast). Fireball has an "extra" (an ability that is always in effect that changes the way a power works in come way) that makes it cover an area, while magic missile would have affects insubstantial. Both work the same basic way, but its the extras, flaws, or other odds and ends that allow two otherwise similar powers to be very different.

The other thing I really like about M&M is the way damage works. Your attacks are actually a saving through that opponent has to save against. Every time they fail by a certain amount they accumulate a variety of penalties on their actions, or future saves. So it simulates comic book fights extremely well. I've also found that it works for damn near anything else as a bonus.

For proof check out my Character du Jour (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=18932) on the offical M&M Boards. Its all second edition stuff and that is the one I would recommend. Other good posters to check out in the Roll Call section of those boards would be BARON, MDSnowman and Taliesen. BARON has the largest number of different characters statted up. Its a really good way to get a feel for how you can build all kinds of different characters with the system. My favourite is Taliesin's version of Mogo.



Also, like any level-based game it ignores the fact that comic book heroes don't really change in power (except plot based temporary changes). Over the last 40 years, most comic book staples are still around the same power level. In any campaign, the characters will rapidly get new/better powers as they level up.

M&M isn't level based at all. Its point based. Unless the GM decides to increase the power level of the game, and thus allow you make your powers stronger the best your character can do is get more feats, skills or expand what their existing powers can already do. I know that isn't exactly clear, but without getting into a full blow discussion about power construction rules its hard to explain exactly what I mean. Suffice to say that M&M is one of the best systems I've ever used, whether for superheroes or something else.

Indon
2007-04-08, 04:12 PM
Also, like any level-based game it ignores the fact that comic book heroes don't really change in power (except plot based temporary changes). Over the last 40 years, most comic book staples are still around the same power level. In any campaign, the characters will rapidly get new/better powers as they level up.

I disagree with this, in regards to many characters. Sure, some characters are eternal in that sense, but some do change and grow.

One example I can think of offhand is Nightwing.

StickMan
2007-04-08, 04:24 PM
To use a few examples from comic books, since that is what they system is designed around. Spider-Man is generally accepted by the good people at the Atomic Think Tank (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/) to be a prototypical PL10 character. So might Wolverine, Shadowcat or Cyclops. Each is very different in terms of abilities, but when compared to each other as a group they are fairly well balanced in terms of abilities and overall strengths and versatility.



Just one thing bugs me about this post. How on earth is Spiderman on the same level as Cyclops and even Wolverine. Actually I've played the marvel role playing game, which is not a very good RPG in my opinion, but it comes out and states that Spiderman is about actually as powerful as Thor, and is one of the more powerful, marvel heros. I just want to know the logic in that, especially after this whole new power thing.

Beleriphon
2007-04-08, 04:24 PM
I disagree with this, in regards to many characters. Sure, some characters are eternal in that sense, but some do change and grow.

One example I can think of offhand is Nightwing.

Even Batman is a good example. Over the years his arsenal has expanded, he adds new toys and gadgets to all of his gear, or gets a new vehicle. This is all purchased with points gained in game. Batman's over all power has never really changed, but his versatility went from crazy good to utter ridiculous.


Just one thing bugs me about this post. How on earth is Spiderman on the same level as Cyclops and even Wolverine. Actually I've played the marvel role playing game, which is not a very good RPG in my opinion, but it comes out and states that Spiderman is about actually as powerful as Thor, and is one of the more powerful, marvel heros. I just want to know the logic in that, especially after this whole new power thing.

Because the exact powers that he has are largely irrelevant, or even the number of powers that Spidey has. What is important for the system is how strong those powers are in comparison to his ability to hit in combination with his defensive abilities. Spidey is probably going to have used a great deal many more points that Cyclops, who is a bit of a glass canon in comparison (that is to say offensively strong, but easy to take out).

Lets say that all of Spider-Man's abilities total 180 points, and Cyclops totals up to 150 points. There is a 30 point difference in there, so Spider-Man is by default more versatile, he's also spent as many points as an average Power Level 12 character. However, when after working out all of the bonuses that Spider-Man gets for combat, skills, saves et al. he comes out to be a PL10 character, the same as Cyclops.

I'll see if I can explain why. Power level is determined by the total bonus of attack and damage bonus divided by two. So Spider-Man has a +12 to hit and a +8 to damage (incidentally this means he as strength of 26). Adding those together we get +20. Divide that by two we get a total of 10. Looking at Spider-Man's defense he has a +14 Defense and a +6 Toughness save (lets say from an 22 Con). Those add up to a 20, so Spidey is a PL10 character. We would do the same thing with Cyclops, he could have very different values, but as long as it all totals up he's also PL10.

I'm not suggesting that the values that I presented are what I would use, they are just off the cuff examples. The thing you have to keep mind is that the number of points you spend to build a character is total independent of their power level which more of a balancing tool for combat, and keeping a group of PCs all in the same general range abilities.

Also keep ind mint that the power level for NPCs is determined by the values of their abilities, while the Power Level of a PC is determined by what the GM wants to run as a game. Like I said check out the threads that I liked to see that in action.

PnP Fan
2007-04-08, 05:48 PM
Beleriphon speaks the truth. The independance between Power Level, and Character Points is the thing that really keeps MnM 2.0 from getting completely out of hand.

Other things that were improvements in 2.0 vs. 1.0:
1. Relative Values: In 1.0 your basic Attack Power, Movement Power, and Defensive Power all cost pretty much the same, and they all improved at a fixed rate in RL numbers. In 2.0 Attack Powers and Defense Powers improve in the same scale, however your movement powers improve along a different scale. So a 1.0 character might have to spend 20 points to get a decent flight speed, but a 2.0 character only has to spend about 10, maybe less. A number of "non-combat" abilities improve along a non-linear scale. The end result of this is that you can get those nifties that you want to make your character concept full, but you don't have to sack your combat abilities to do so.
2. Leaders: 2.0 has a number of leadership type feats that help the team out, and they are really worth having around. I don't think 1.0 had that, or not as well developed. I play a Captain America knockoff in a game, and his shining moments are when he helps the team via inspiration and whatnot (usually just before he goes down, just like Cap')
3. Alternate powers: the best thing that 2.0 has is the ability to buy new power effects cheaply. I probably shouldn't go into the mechanics, but it's a relatively easy thing to "learn new tricks" with your power in 2.0. In 1.0 it wasn't an easy option.

Anyway, just wanted to throw a couple more copper into the pot.

Beleriphon
2007-04-08, 10:31 PM
3. Alternate powers: the best thing that 2.0 has is the ability to buy new power effects cheaply. I probably shouldn't go into the mechanics, but it's a relatively easy thing to "learn new tricks" with your power in 2.0. In 1.0 it wasn't an easy option.

Anyway, just wanted to throw a couple more copper into the pot.

I will explain since PnP brought it up. Alternate Powers are like alternate uses of a base power. Lets take Spidey as an example. In the Marvel RPG he would need to buy his web slinging, his web traps, web "bullets", etc all as independent powers. In M&M you could buy a basic "web" power like Snare for say 20 points. Then for one point you can buy other powers such as the web bullets as an alternate use of the base power provided their entire normal cost isn't more than the base power.

As a bonus since these Alternate Powers counts a feats applied to a base power you can "Power Stunt", that is temporarily gain a new power, by spending a hero point. So it lets you get those one time uses, say a Spidey lasso, without having to buy it as a permanent power.

As I mentioned the power level of a character is different then the number of points they spend. Mutants and Masterminds (1st Edition) had the two linked, in that your power level was determined by the number of points your character was worth. Second Edition changed this, now all the points do is limit how much stuff you can buy for a character, and the power level limts how strong some of that stuff can be.

Theodoxus
2007-04-08, 11:01 PM
I have to agree with crispy. Superman has raw powers yes but batman has tons and tons of skills that superman can't even imagin.

Superman also has that incredibly terrible flaw of always being in God Mode. Look at the movies (I never read a SM comic, but I can only imagine it happens there too) - anytime he's hit with Kryptonite, and is no longer invulnerable, he turns into a giant pusstard. If he can't ignore the pain and toss the badguys around like ragdolls, he falls to pieces, and quick.

I rewatched Superman Returns, and when hes on the crystal island, all fuggered over by the kryptonite, he can't even stand up to run away - he just crawls, completely inept. Look at the difference between his demeanor and Batman's, in a similar situation, and Batman is all over it - fighting to gain a foothold, not giving up cuz God Mode is over.

Superman no longer brings enjoyment to my life, because he reminds me of what it's like to play an FPS in God Mode - BORING!!! Give me substance, man. I think that's why I prefer Marvel to DC - the characters have a lot more humanity - even the inhuman ones.

As for M&M specifically, I've yet to manage to get any of my friends to try it, but I love the books, and the entire simplification of d20 (True20 is really amazing). After my current SW d20 game runs its course, I might sneak in a M&M game.

Theo

F.H. Zebedee
2007-04-09, 01:40 AM
Well, that's probably because Kryptonite actually is slowly killing Superman. I won't deny that he wusses out when he's powerless and poisoned.
If you want the real deal, watch the Animated stuff. In Justice League, when he got his powers taken away by a time travel incident, he forged himself a sword, and kept on chugging. Nowhere near Batman, but he still is capable of holding his own without powers.

And I think I need to try it, too. I have yet to find a good superhero style system, so I think that I'll give it a look for running a campaign in a universe I've been setting up. (I LOVE systems that just give you the crunch and leave the fluff. They make RPing so easy and natural!)

ravenkith
2007-04-09, 10:14 AM
I love mutants & masterminds.

I had the first edition, and when I get my next paycheck, I'm picking up the 2nd edition.

My friends and I are definitely going to play it ASAP.

I am currently involved in a game on these boards, which, in theory, should be starting soon.

Check Khantalas' sig out - it's going to be fun!

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-09, 02:26 PM
Yeah, he never got back to me if my backstory was alright.

ravenkith
2007-04-09, 04:38 PM
I think he said in the thread that it was ok....

But I could be mistaken.

As far as backstory's go, though, it's hard to inflict damage on an M&M campaign with one.... IMHO.

Khantalas
2007-04-09, 04:40 PM
You had a backstory?

My mind is blown. Can you re-send it so I won't have to look through your 40+ posts about the game? Pretty please?

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-09, 04:59 PM
I PMed it to you a long time back. The day after you PMed me asking for it. I'll send it again once I get home from work.

karmuno
2007-04-09, 09:25 PM
Hmm, I've been tossing the idea around my head for the past week or so to start up a superhero campaign of my own. I even started planning out how I could do a d20 Modern variant. After reading this, though, I think I've definitely got to give this system a try. From what I've read, this looks perfect for my needs. A couple questions though:

How easy is it to mix characters of varying levels (or power levels or point values or whatever you crazy kids are calling it these days) in the same party? That is, how far apart can two characters be before the "underprivileged" player starts to feel, well, underprivileged. I bring this up because I plan on running a campaign where, apart from the main "superteam" campaign, I'd run a bunch of side missions and stuff, to imitate how batman and superman and all them still do stuff on their own, while teaming up with the justice league to fend off an alien invasion. If it's easy to mix varying power levels, that would be ideal for my concept.

Is there any sort of exponential increase in cost of powers, etc. as one becomes more powerful? This makes more sense as heros "discover" new abilities fairly quickly early on but tend to slow down as they progress (at least that's how I'd like to have it).

Piccamo
2007-04-09, 09:47 PM
As long as everyone is good at their own thing and no one overshadows them on that particular thing no one will feel left out. They can have vastly different points, but the same power level. As the GM you will determine when your players may advance. Extra power points may not be applied to a maxed power until the next Power Level is achieved.

Beleriphon
2007-04-10, 02:22 AM
How easy is it to mix characters of varying levels (or power levels or point values or whatever you crazy kids are calling it these days) in the same party? That is, how far apart can two characters be before the "underprivileged" player starts to feel, well, underprivileged. I bring this up because I plan on running a campaign where, apart from the main "superteam" campaign, I'd run a bunch of side missions and stuff, to imitate how batman and superman and all them still do stuff on their own, while teaming up with the justice league to fend off an alien invasion. If it's easy to mix varying power levels, that would be ideal for my concept.


You can have four heroes all be PL10/150 points (the default assumption of the game) and they could all be very different in terms of abilities. You might have a martial arts master that focuses on his ability to hit over damage and trading off different bonuses on the fly, a battle suit clad Iron Man rip off, a Superman rip off and the shrinking flying insubstantial blaster of doom. All of them are different "levels" of power, but each of them is still a Power Level 10 character. That is to say they all fall into the mechanical aspect of power level. You can keep a very street level Batman feel and still have them be highly capable in an epic Justice League-esque adventure. If you really want to have a range of power levels (like say the X-Men where Kitty is clearly much less powerful that Colossus) then I wouldn't go more than a two PL difference. I would enforce the same number of points spent on a character. This makes the higher PL character slightly more powerful, but less versatile.



Is there any sort of exponential increase in cost of powers, etc. as one becomes more powerful? This makes more sense as heros "discover" new abilities fairly quickly early on but tend to slow down as they progress (at least that's how I'd like to have it).Nope, no exponential increase as such. Lets take a Blast power. It costs 2 points per rank of the power. At PL 10, barring trade offs in favour of damage, you can buy 10 ranks of Blast and deal damage at range. The cost never changes. If you wanted an Burst area Blast 10 then it would costs 30 points since the ability to cover an area increase the cost by one point per rank. If you want a Sustained duration Blast (up from instant, say like a flame thrower effect) then it goes up to 4 points per rank (2 base +2 points per rank for Sustained) and would cost 40 points for that power at Rank 10. If you want to make my example of a Sustained Blast also be Penetrating (the ability to over come certain other defensive abilities) then it would be 6 points per rank. So if you want to make the previous 40 point power cost 50 you need to spend those full 10 points. So you know have a more powerful single power, but another character could then spend their same 10 points on more feats, skills or a brand new power.

The other nice thing is that you as the GM control the rate of PL increase. If you never want to increase PL then the characters can never make a good number of the abilities more powerful. They can diversify more, or add new abilities, but they will only ever be a certain strength. When you decide to increase the power level of the game then the character could make their laser vision do more damage, or increase their strength to deal damage in melee combat.

If you're looking for hard and fast advancement rules, there are none. The books suggest a one PL increase every 15 points gained (a PL 10 character is suggested as 150 points for a reason), and it is suggested that you one or two points out per game. So every ten to fiften games the character's go up a power level. Again this is just a suggestion and isn't an ingrained part of the rules like XP is for D&D.

EDIT:

I'm also going to totally pimp Green Ronin's own Superhero setting: Freedom City. Its a really cool Four Colour modern comic type setting. Any place that has the Kirby Art Museum and a Ditko Street kicks ass. Its also extremely well thought out, the setting book is mad heavy on the fluff, and only the last sixty page or so include character write ups. Even then most of them are the settings major villains, and the stat block is about a quarter page, the rest of their typically two page write up is background!