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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Of Scale and Tongue, Serpent Kingdoms Warlock(PEACH)



Amnoriath
2015-02-20, 10:27 AM
What I want to know is did I bring the flavor as well as versatility of some of the iconic things without having full brokenness of that one key ability. Mainly I wonder about the capstone.


The Omnipresent Serpent

Many wish for greatness by training, education, or specialization. Though a Warlock who chooses this path ultimately knows that such thing can only be had if allowed to. Ultimately the fascination and integration of life is what drives the world. People who don't carry out pointless lives Those who choose this pact look to emulate the qualities of mythic reptilian humanoids and aspects of the World Serpent itself. These may include the Yuan-Ti, Sarrukh, Mishtai, or just the general concept of the Ouroboros.


Sarrukh Expanded Spells
Level 1: Command, Entangle
Level 2: Alter Self, Suggestion
Level 3: Meld into Stone, Stinking Cloud
Level 4: Giant Insect, Polymorph
Level 5: Insect Plague, Reincarnate

http://i.imgur.com/Lg7eXn2.jpg

Body of Origin: At level 1 you gain Unarmored Defense equal to 13+Dexterity modifier. Additionally when you would take damage as a reaction you can unfurl the coils of the Great Serpent to mend you and lash out at your enemies. You heal 1d10+warlock level+cha. modifier in hit points and the attacker must make a Constitution save against your spell DC or be unable to take any actions as well as cease any movement until their next turn. Fiends, Undead, Aberrations, and Celestials have disadvantage against this save. This healing can stop you from dying instantly or from becoming unconscious. Once this is used you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Progenitor's Design: At level 6 you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you canít increase an ability score above 20 using this feature. Additionally when performing a physical ability check or physical save you may add your proficiency bonus to the roll after you roll but before knowing the result. Once you have used this you must complete a short or long rest to use it again.

World's Guard: At level 10 you gain advantage on saves against special abilities and spells of Fiends, Undead, Aberrations, and Celestials as long as you are on the Material Plane. Additionally you may choose from one benefit below. You may exchange one for another below after a long rest.

You gain 1 hit point per level of warlock you possess and you increase your AC by 1
You gain a natural attack as the Alter Self spell as well as gain a +2 bonus to physical damage rolls. Additionally you may make an attack with it as bonus action as long as you have taken an Attack action in the round.
Your walking speed is increased by 10 feet and may take the Disengage action as a bonus action.
You gain Darkvision out to 60 feet. If you already have that the distance doubles. Additionally you may take your turn even while surprised.
You gain the Aquatic Adaptation option of the Alter Self spell.


Avatar of Ouroboros At level 14 you gain immunity to poison damage, being poisoned, and poisons of any kind as well as ignore any limitations of being prone.
Finally, as an action you may summon the Great Serpent to strike your foes. You make 4 spell attack rolls and may target any creature within 120 feet of you. If they are prone they are treated as only being 5 feet away. If successful you deal 3d6+warlock level in force damage to each and may move them 20 feet or render them prone. You then heal half the damage dealt. Once you have used this you must complete a long rest to use it again.

Amnoriath
2015-02-21, 08:17 AM
Anybody? I know its a sore subject but is it still a bit much?

Inchoroi
2015-02-21, 02:15 PM
Anybody? I know its a sore subject but is it still a bit much?

Well, I really love the idea. However, a couple of the options for Genus Overhaul aren't exactly appropriate; mostly the +2 bonuses to saves/AC. The reason for this is that its not appropriate for 5e; just my personal opinion, really, but I always make sure to stay away from random bonuses.

The same critique also applies to the level 6 feature; you have a tendency to use things like that (floating ability score bonuses, in addition to trying to do way too much with subclasses), I've noticed, and would really recommend staying away from that. I can't think of anything other than the Barbarian capstone that does anything similar for class features; that should be a hint, I'd think, that adding them should be a rare thing (outside of ability score increases, of course).

So, in general, the subclass tries to do way too much. I'd pare it down a lot; give him the Dragon Bloodline sorcerer feature (or something similar) for level 1, and that's it. Give the poison ability from Venom of Origin and poison resistance + advantage against poison saves at level 6--and that's it for that level. At level 10, you'll need to come up with some other stuff, as I don't believe the feature is truly salvageable. I can suggest, however, something defensive; the published subclasses always have a defensive feature at this point. Perhaps the healing reaction from Progenitor's Design might be more appropriate. At level 14, I assume you meant the Shapechange spell, which is a 9th-level spell; however, giving it a once-per-long-rest casting at 14th level is not that bad, because the spell is limited by your level already, meaning you can't shapeshift into anything above CR14 at that point. So, level 14 should be a.) you're considered a shapeshifter for the purposes of effects (and not just beneficial ones, all effects), and b.) you can cast the shapechange spell once per long rest without the use of a spell slot or components; and that's really all it should be.

One thing that might help you is if you drew up a table in openoffice.org or something similar, and actually list all the things that your subclasses give you, and compare them to the published classes.

Amnoriath
2015-02-21, 03:15 PM
Well, I really love the idea. However, a couple of the options for Genus Overhaul aren't exactly appropriate; mostly the +2 bonuses to saves/AC. The reason for this is that its not appropriate for 5e; just my personal opinion, really, but I always make sure to stay away from random bonuses.

The same critique also applies to the level 6 feature; you have a tendency to use things like that (floating ability score bonuses, in addition to trying to do way too much with subclasses), I've noticed, and would really recommend staying away from that. I can't think of anything other than the Barbarian capstone that does anything similar for class features; that should be a hint, I'd think, that adding them should be a rare thing (outside of ability score increases, of course).

So, in general, the subclass tries to do way too much. I'd pare it down a lot; give him the Dragon Bloodline sorcerer feature (or something similar) for level 1, and that's it. Give the poison ability from Venom of Origin and poison resistance + advantage against poison saves at level 6--and that's it for that level. At level 10, you'll need to come up with some other stuff, as I don't believe the feature is truly salvageable. I can suggest, however, something defensive; the published subclasses always have a defensive feature at this point. Perhaps the healing reaction from Progenitor's Design might be more appropriate. At level 14, I assume you meant the Shapechange spell, which is a 9th-level spell; however, giving it a once-per-long-rest casting at 14th level is not that bad, because the spell is limited by your level already, meaning you can't shapeshift into anything above CR14 at that point. So, level 14 should be a.) you're considered a shapeshifter for the purposes of effects (and not just beneficial ones, all effects), and b.) you can cast the shapechange spell once per long rest without the use of a spell slot or components; and that's really all it should be.

One thing that might help you is if you drew up a table in openoffice.org or something similar, and actually list all the things that your subclasses give you, and compare them to the published classes.
1. Many things give bonus to some extent even if they are random. The way I look at it is if it is lower than what advantage would typically give it isn't much of an issue.
2. But not only would it be copying they still have an extra perk even if it is situational on top of the bonuses. I also think that it is bad design having to wait for a spell to have any semblance of what the subclass is suppose to do.
3. Yes, it is a little odd but it is simple and gives flavor of body modification with very little numbers. Besides two other classes give additional ASI's so it isn't unheard of. It is also traditional at that level to give them an active defense. So, giving them a racial feature that is an after thought reason for taking it at level 6 is a little pathetic.
4. Yes, I do know I give a lot of options but Alter Self at this point and before has been relegated to disguise or water adaptation. It isn't that its not useful, just nothing worth keeping your concentration for battle. The natural weapons have little if no use in comparison and many other spells at similar level have proven far more useful on the field. It needs a boost at this point to make the strategy worthwhile but still limited with in the confines of the spell. At 10th level it has been traditional to have something that wasn't a limited resource.
5. Oh right of course, my bad. While it would be simpler the problem is it is still a 9th level spell 3 levels earlier and a very good one at that for free. So, I thought it was better to give an invocation slightly early and have other things to make up for the weird faults of the Polymorph spell such as losing mental stats or non-magical attacks..etc. Than capping it off with a limited Shapechange suggests another advancement but is still not the arguably overpowered 9th level version.
It isn't that I don't see what you mean but I am just giving reasons to why I did what I did. Though if you can think of some simpler things to give a similar vibe or something I missed please suggest it.

Inchoroi
2015-02-21, 03:49 PM
1. Many things give bonus to some extent even if they are random. The way I look at it is if it is lower than what advantage would typically give it isn't much of an issue.
2. But not only would it be copying they still have an extra perk even if it is situational on top of the bonuses. I also think that it is bad design having to wait for a spell to have any semblance of what the subclass is suppose to do.
3. Yes, it is a little odd but it is simple and gives flavor of body modification with very little numbers. Besides two other classes give additional ASI's so it isn't unheard of. It is also traditional at that level to give them an active defense. So, giving them a racial feature that is an after thought reason for taking it at level 6 is a little pathetic.
4. Yes, I do know I give a lot of options but Alter Self at this point and before has been relegated to disguise or water adaptation. It isn't that its not useful, just nothing worth keeping your concentration for battle. The natural weapons have little if no use in comparison and many other spells at similar level have proven far more useful on the field. It needs a boost at this point to make the strategy worthwhile but still limited with in the confines of the spell. At 10th level it has been traditional to have something that wasn't a limited resource.
5. Oh right of course, my bad. While it would be simpler the problem is it is still a 9th level spell 3 levels earlier and a very good one at that for free. So, I thought it was better to give an invocation slightly early and have other things to make up for the weird faults of the Polymorph spell such as losing mental stats or non-magical attacks..etc. Than capping it off with a limited Shapechange suggests another advancement but is still not the arguably overpowered 9th level version.
It isn't that I don't see what you mean but I am just giving reasons to why I did what I did. Though if you can think of some simpler things to give a similar vibe or something I missed please suggest it.

From where are you grabbing the themes and such from? I might be able to give more coherent suggestions if I knew that.

Amnoriath
2015-02-22, 05:44 PM
From where are you grabbing the themes and such from? I might be able to give more coherent suggestions if I knew that.

Well the way I looked at it was by giving those new options for Alter Self so it could act like a far more reasonable version of the Sarrukh's manipulate form. In a way the attribute bonus kind of does to but mainly the flavor to go with that is since they are masters of manipulating their body it is a stepping stone and should have a little bit better ability scores than your typical Warlock at least in the physical department. I would consider removing the free invocation but then it just seems weird that they are considered a Shapechanger but don't really have a consistent shifting ability.

Inchoroi
2015-02-22, 11:25 PM
Well the way I looked at it was by giving those new options for Alter Self so it could act like a far more reasonable version of the Sarrukh's manipulate form. In a way the attribute bonus kind of does to but mainly the flavor to go with that is since they are masters of manipulating their body it is a stepping stone and should have a little bit better ability scores than your typical Warlock at least in the physical department. I would consider removing the free invocation but then it just seems weird that they are considered a Shapechanger but don't really have a consistent shifting ability.

One thing that's odd. If I found the right reference, the sarrukh were a race that magically altered reptilian species across faerun. Are you trying to make one of those modified abominations with the subclass, or, alternatively, is this warlock a literal servant of the World Serpent him/her/itself? I find the latter idea much more appealing, personally.

One thing I've noted with conversions of both adventures and classes is that the ones that are much more functional apply newish 5e mechanics to preexisting themes, rather than converting the mechanics themselves; if that makes any sense.

Amnoriath
2015-02-23, 10:15 AM
One thing that's odd. If I found the right reference, the sarrukh were a race that magically altered reptilian species across faerun. Are you trying to make one of those modified abominations with the subclass, or, alternatively, is this warlock a literal servant of the World Serpent him/her/itself? I find the latter idea much more appealing, personally.

One thing I've noted with conversions of both adventures and classes is that the ones that are much more functional apply newish 5e mechanics to preexisting themes, rather than converting the mechanics themselves; if that makes any sense.

I am not making a Sarrukh per se but the developers did mention Faerun would be integral in 5e. The Sarrukh merely seemed to epitomize what seemed to be quite common among the more intelligent classic reptilian enemies without necessarily being an enemy. That is their attention to lineages and genetic features to diversify as well as empower themselves. I used the name because it was the most prominent like how the others were named the Archfey, Great Old One..etc.
While the World Serpent could be interesting it seems to specific to make a Warlock Pact out of as the flavor behind them is that they cite a general category of being to have a sort of cult worship.

Inchoroi
2015-02-23, 12:12 PM
I am not making a Sarrukh per se but the developers did mention Faerun would be integral in 5e. The Sarrukh merely seemed to epitomize what seemed to be quite common among the more intelligent classic reptilian enemies without necessarily being an enemy. That is their attention to lineages and genetic features to diversify as well as empower themselves. I used the name because it was the most prominent like how the others were named the Archfey, Great Old One..etc.
While the World Serpent could be interesting it seems to specific to make a Warlock Pact out of as the flavor behind them is that they cite a general category of being to have a sort of cult worship.

They didn't name names for the warlock patrons to avoid setting woes in the PHB (ignoring, of course, all the FR storylines now, which is a discussion for another time). Fortunately, the World-Serpent is present through multiple settings, from what I could find. The Sarrukh were merely one of the first servants of said primordial/titan. That's what I would use as inspiration for themes, and then make features that match the way the other warlock subclasses grant features. I think it could be fun if the level 14 feature gave you the ability to morph into a serpent/biped hybrid for a minute, too.

Amnoriath
2015-02-23, 02:21 PM
They didn't name names for the warlock patrons to avoid setting woes in the PHB (ignoring, of course, all the FR storylines now, which is a discussion for another time). Fortunately, the World-Serpent is present through multiple settings, from what I could find. The Sarrukh were merely one of the first servants of said primordial/titan. That's what I would use as inspiration for themes, and then make features that match the way the other warlock subclasses grant features. I think it could be fun if the level 14 feature gave you the ability to morph into a serpent/biped hybrid for a minute, too.

1. While that definitely could be a reason to me it was more of a way to ensure that players either could specifically beseech or not depending on the character going off from the "Theater of Mind".
2. What I was able to gather from 4e was that the World Serpent was one of the great sources of Primal Power and actually is a guardian against Primordials, Demons..etc. As such I don't think it would necessarily change all that much unless there is some statistics on it I could borrow.

Inchoroi
2015-02-23, 05:13 PM
Those are some themes you should include, then, assuming you don't want the subclass to be genetic experiment. The 1st level feature should be either defensive or utility in nature, while the 6th and 10th should be purely defensive in nature. The 14th level feature should be something epic and thematic--but you need to avoid doing too much with the subclass.

Edit: Alternatively, what might also be fun is if one of the features gave a few body-modification options that you can choose from once per long rest, similar to how fiend's dark resilience works.

Amnoriath
2015-02-25, 11:42 AM
Those are some themes you should include, then, assuming you don't want the subclass to be genetic experiment. The 1st level feature should be either defensive or utility in nature, while the 6th and 10th should be purely defensive in nature. The 14th level feature should be something epic and thematic--but you need to avoid doing too much with the subclass.

Edit: Alternatively, what might also be fun is if one of the features gave a few body-modification options that you can choose from once per long rest, similar to how fiend's dark resilience works.

Okay I simplified some things and changed things for the flavor but I am not sure what to do for the final ability. I was debating taking out the shapeshift for a sort of summon attack option and a little passive bonus.

Inchoroi
2015-02-28, 05:38 PM
Okay I simplified some things and changed things for the flavor but I am not sure what to do for the final ability. I was debating taking out the shapeshift for a sort of summon attack option and a little passive bonus.

That is still really, really powerful.

Comparison:
World-Serpent:
Level 1:
* You get the Dragon Bloodline Sorcerer feature. Not a bad feature for this purpose.
* You get a better version of Second Wind from Fighter (using a reaction, instead of a bonus action), plus some quite OP action-denial shenanigans. Just this half of the 1st-level feature is more powerful than the 6th level feature of the Fey pact warlock.

Level 6:
* You get another Ability Score Increase, despite the fact that this would make this subclass more powerful than all of them alone. There's a reason why ASIs are tied to class levels, and no subclass grants them.
* While this is similar to the Fiend ability for this level, its also oddly worded. You could clean it up a lot by just saying "ability checks and saving throws" (in other words, just copy that ability).

Level 10:
* You get advantage on saving throws; not a bad idea, even if its worded in a really weird way. Just copy over the Evasion ability from Rogue and be done with it.
* Now you go overboard again. I'd drop this entirely, if I'm honest. Maybe add a few druid spells to the warlock spell list, if that; especially raising your HP like that is a Really Bad IdeaTM. You already have a lot of the stuff from being able to use Alter Self.

Level 14:
* Ironically, this is the most balanced of all of them; its still a little too powerful. Drop the healing, and it should be fine, if also worded in a strange way (it suffers from 4e's explicitness). The poison immunity isn't that bad on top of everything else; its powerful, but poison damage isn't that prevalent. You can word it a lot better. "Choose up to four creatures within 120 feet of you. Those creatures must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw against your warlock spell DC, or take 3d6 + your warlock level in force damage and be restrained. While the creature is restrained, you may take a bonus action on your turn to move the creature up to 20 feet in any direction. Once you have used this ability, you must complete a long rest to use it again."


Fiend Pact:
Level 1:
* You get some temp-hp when you kill something.

Level 6:
* As mentioned above, at this level, once per short rest, the fiend pact warlock can add a d10 to one ability check or saving throw. That's all they get, though.

Level 10:
* You get to choose a damage type once per short rest to have resistance. Its still not full resistance, because magic weapons and silver weapons ignore it completely.

Level 14:
* Hurl Through Hell is quite powerful; it does a lot of damage for a level 14 ability, and, its most damning feature is the action denial.

Amnoriath
2015-02-28, 07:28 PM
That is still really, really powerful.

Comparison:
World-Serpent:
Level 1:
* You get the Dragon Bloodline Sorcerer feature. Not a bad feature for this purpose.
* You get a better version of Second Wind from Fighter (using a reaction, instead of a bonus action), plus some quite OP action-denial shenanigans. Just this half of the 1st-level feature is more powerful than the 6th level feature of the Fey pact warlock.

Level 6:
* You get another Ability Score Increase, despite the fact that this would make this subclass more powerful than all of them alone. There's a reason why ASIs are tied to class levels, and no subclass grants them.
* While this is similar to the Fiend ability for this level, its also oddly worded. You could clean it up a lot by just saying "ability checks and saving throws" (in other words, just copy that ability).

Level 10:
* You get advantage on saving throws; not a bad idea, even if its worded in a really weird way. Just copy over the Evasion ability from Rogue and be done with it.
* Now you go overboard again. I'd drop this entirely, if I'm honest. Maybe add a few druid spells to the warlock spell list, if that; especially raising your HP like that is a Really Bad IdeaTM. You already have a lot of the stuff from being able to use Alter Self.

Level 14:
* Ironically, this is the most balanced of all of them; its still a little too powerful. Drop the healing, and it should be fine, if also worded in a strange way (it suffers from 4e's explicitness). The poison immunity isn't that bad on top of everything else; its powerful, but poison damage isn't that prevalent. You can word it a lot better. "Choose up to four creatures within 120 feet of you. Those creatures must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw against your warlock spell DC, or take 3d6 + your warlock level in force damage and be restrained. While the creature is restrained, you may take a bonus action on your turn to move the creature up to 20 feet in any direction. Once you have used this ability, you must complete a long rest to use it again."


Fiend Pact:
Level 1:
* You get some temp-hp when you kill something.

Level 6:
* As mentioned above, at this level, once per short rest, the fiend pact warlock can add a d10 to one ability check or saving throw. That's all they get, though.

Level 10:
* You get to choose a damage type once per short rest to have resistance. Its still not full resistance, because magic weapons and silver weapons ignore it completely.

Level 14:
* Hurl Through Hell is quite powerful; it does a lot of damage for a level 14 ability, and, its most damning feature is the action denial.
1. Second Wind is usable every short rest. I knocked this down to every long rest to fit its new level. So Second Wind will give you more health back during the day.
2. It's no different than how Remarkable Athlete restricts its bonuses. The ASI without the trade feat option is intended to give you something else in which otherwise by luck and versatility the Fiend Pact will give you more at that level. Also I said at that point Alter Self is rather pointless to have aside from specific utility which exclude each others use.
3. You said give bonuses traded every long rest so that is what I did. The other is a limited half of Protection from Good and Evil spell(level 1). Conversely the Fiend Warlock is a much better Protection from Energy spell(level 3).
4. Hmm, the problem is what is the duration with that? Also a save with no effect considering it can be quite easy to ignore a save vs. an attack.