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View Full Version : Borderlands! Fallout! Mass Effect! OH MY! SciFi System Help



Nanoblack
2015-02-20, 08:37 PM
So, I'm in the process of writing up an RPG system with the intention of taking the bits of other games that people really like and getting rid of parts that we could do without; much of this coming from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?397573-The-most-far-reaching-bad-descisions-in-RPG-design). With that in mind, I figured this would be a good place to bounce some ideas and get feedback on what bits I'm currently working on.

Today the topic is weapons, their attributes, and how the subtypes differ from each other. As it stands, I currently have the following weapon types: Pistol, SMG, rifle, shotgun, and special (which covers the random outliers like flamethrowers and rocket launchers). This system is intended to cater to sci-fi with modules added later to escalate the fantasy content as desired. I chose these weapon types because I have the framework for a pretty intricate crafting system; think borderlands translated to tabletop. I need the weapon types varied enough that swapping an attachment would blur the line, but not invalidate it. That's the reason why I put assault rifles and sniper rifles into the same category.

The first question I have is:

Are the majority of common firearms represented here? If not, how would you divide it up? Finally, I have the below attributes for firearms in general and was hoping I could get some opinions on where each weapon type stands on a scale of 1-10:

Damage, accuracy, penetration, fire rate, range, reload speed, recoil

Please no responses in the vein of "don't waste your time, just go play X", though "you should go check out how X does this" if welcomed.

Anonymouswizard
2015-02-20, 09:03 PM
Why not just two types of weapon: melee and ranged? It sounds like it might be easier to separate weapons using damage, recoil, RoF, module slots etc. What advantage do you get from separating a shotgun from a rifle?

Taking a leaf out of a friend's homebrew system for a moment, you could have the weapon types of close range (melee weapons), medium range (shotguns, pistols, SMGs), long range (rifles, beam weapons), and why do you even have that (rocket launchers, artillery, antimatter). In addition you can have one-handed and two handed weapons. Add module slots and special abilities as required, and you can theoretically model any weapon.

Thrawn4
2015-02-21, 10:26 AM
I think you should begin with some basic premises, like - is the system going to be heroic or lethal
- how much crunch do you want to implement (easy to learn VS in-depth-rules)
- "realism" VS game balance.

It looks like you are going for heroic and rules-heavy.
In that case your weapons are missing reliability/maintenance.

Nanoblack
2015-02-21, 10:56 AM
The weapon types are intended to be base forms with statistics that differ enough to feel different in use. There should be a reason someone favors a weapon type beyond how cool it looks. To answer your question regarding rifle vs shotgun, the obvious answer would be that shotguns are devastating up close and have significant damage falloff as range increases. However, I would like to elaborate by saying that shotguns are also ineffective at penetrating armor which will also play a big part in combat.

Beleriphon
2015-02-21, 11:25 AM
The first question I have is:

Are the majority of common firearms represented here? If not, how would you divide it up? Finally, I have the below attributes for firearms in general and was hoping I could get some opinions on where each weapon type stands on a scale of 1-10:

Damage, accuracy, penetration, fire rate, range, reload speed, recoil

I'll answer a question with a question. What do you want to achieve with different weapons? Do you want to model them after real weapons in some manner? If so just use the real world weight and ranges for such things. At a practical level though there isn't much different between any one assault rifle or another within in their optimal ranges as far what they tend to do to a human body.

I think your best object here is to ask yourself what do you want to model with the game, and what does having a dozen varities of guns do towards achieving that goal?

Anonymouswizard
2015-02-21, 03:13 PM
The weapon types are intended to be base forms with statistics that differ enough to feel different in use. There should be a reason someone favors a weapon type beyond how cool it looks. To answer your question regarding rifle vs shotgun, the obvious answer would be that shotguns are devastating up close and have significant damage falloff as range increases. However, I would like to elaborate by saying that shotguns are also ineffective at penetrating armor which will also play a big part in combat.

For despsrately wanted weapons I'm using two categories of fire mode, single shot includes semi automatics, and rapid fire includes those that normally fire bursts or full auto. I expect individual models will vary damage numbers and fire rates within categories slightly.

Counting, for types we can have:
-Light, single shot (pistol)
-Light, rapid fire (machine pistol/SMG)
-Standard, single shot (rifle)
-Standard, single shot, cone (shotgun) -note that their effective range should be at least as good as a pistol's.
-Standard, rapid fire (assault rifle)
-Heavy, rapid fire (machine gun)
-Heavy, single shot (launcher? I'm out of my element on what this would actually represent)
-Stream (flamethrower)

At that point I'm not sure what more division is worthwhile, but it likely can be done.


I think your best object here is to ask yourself what do you want to model with the game, and what does having a dozen varities of guns do towards achieving that goal?

So much this. Is there any advantage to weapons not just being a skill or damage bonus?

Nanoblack
2015-02-21, 06:36 PM
Well, so far I only have 5 categories (with one just being a dump for things that do not fit elsewhere). I'm having trouble putting my thoughts to paper appropriately, I am really aiming for a Borderlands feel with the weapon stats. My intention for having the base weapons types is so I can create a weapon that represents the absolute most average weapon of it's type.

From there, I want to have various manufacturers that have an archetype they represent and build a template from that. So in the Borderlands example, a Torgue weapon would be suited to explosive ammunition and other ultraviolent activities, a Hyperion would have less recoil after each successive shot, and Vladof would have a higher fire rate. Eventually if a player invests enough into crafting, they would be able to create weapons even better than what's on the market.

TLDR; I want weapons to be super customizable so players feel good for tricking out their equipment.

EDIT: Forgive me if my answers are vague, I'm doing my best to avoid boring you with a wall of text.

Anonymouswizard
2015-02-21, 07:00 PM
I'm then a) confused about why sub machine guns and assault rifles aren't put together despite serving similar purposes, while bolt action rifles are seen as comparable to assault rifles, and b) what a 'borderlands feel' is, due to having never played the games because they don't interest me, and the technology just sounds stupid (I mean really, turning digital bullets into real bullets with no raw materials?)

Nanoblack
2015-02-22, 11:14 AM
That's definitely a good question, I'm only really after how customizable all of the weapons are without all of the other super-exaggerated bits. I'm not gun expert, but I've always seen SMG's as more compact assault rifles. If a rifle requires two hands to fire and a pistol only requires one, SMG's would be the "hand and a half" gun.

Sith_Happens
2015-02-25, 07:55 AM
what a 'borderlands feel' is

The most defining feature of Borderlands is the procedurally-generated loot. For each category of gun (or shield generator, or "class mod," but it's the guns that are most important) there exists in the game's database a huge set of possible options for each of that gun's parts, each with its own effect on the gun's stats. Set some rules on which of those options can and can't exist together on the same gun, connect to a random number generator, and presto, you have a few million different unique guns to possibly drop off of enemies.

Nanoblack wants that in his RPG system (though presumably scaled down greatly in number of options and combinations), with the twist that if you find Gun A but really wish it had the barrel from Gun B that you found last session, you can actually swap the barrels in question.

Nanoblack
2015-02-25, 06:24 PM
The most defining feature of Borderlands is the procedurally-generated loot. For each category of gun (or shield generator, or "class mod," but it's the guns that are most important) there exists in the game's database a huge set of possible options for each of that gun's parts, each with its own effect on the gun's stats. Set some rules on which of those options can and can't exist together on the same gun, connect to a random number generator, and presto, you have a few million different unique guns to possibly drop off of enemies.

Nanoblack wants that in his RPG system (though presumably scaled down greatly in number of options and combinations), with the twist that if you find Gun A but really wish it had the barrel from Gun B that you found last session, you can actually swap the barrels in question.

First off, I <3 you for putting into words what I was struggling with. Secondly, I've decided to just throw together some arbitrary numbers that are in the ballpark of "correct-ish" for guns and then refine it through playtesting with my IRL group. Now I'm addressing the initiative system.

I've been reading over what systems people generally see as fun and Exalted seems to have this down quite well, so I want to use that as inspiration. The simple version is that everyone will roll to see who reacts first in any given combat and then the initiative counter will tick up in increments of 1. Each action a player takes will have a point cost associated with it, with more time consuming actions costing more points. Once the counter reaches your total, you get to decide another set of actions.

Now with this in mind, I would like to accomplish two things:

1. Incentivise readied actions in such a way that predicting what an opponent will do leads to more successful/devastating results.

2. Introduce a combo system in which actions can be chained together in a fashion that provides synergistic benefits (ex: using telekinesis to toss an enemy toward you for increased melee damage)

For goal one, my initial idea was just to give point discounts for performing readied actions. So in an arbitrary example, say an enemy draws a melee weapon and begins moving toward you. On your turn, you ready a parry action and a counterattack on the condition that this enemy targets you with a melee attack before your turn comes up again. Normally you would only have enough points for a single attack, but readying the action gives you enough of a discount to perform both for the same cost.

Goal two introduces the issue of "how many points should a player be able to spend at one time". Should there even be a limit? I know Exalted has something similar and allows you to abort early, but is there a better or easier way to achieve this?