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Illiterate Scribe
2007-04-07, 09:45 AM
Has anyone got access to Dragon 325? I've been wondering if the metamagic feat 'alternative source spell' (arcane->divine/divine->arcane prepared at -1CL) has a limit on the number of times that you can use it in one preparation session. Crystalkeep doesn't seem to place a limit on it, but I'd like to be sure.

Thanks in advance.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-07, 10:17 AM
There is no limit to the number of times per day you can use it.

Though I am at a loss to the exact benefit of the feat. You can, say, prepare a fireball as a divine spell, but it still takes up a wizard slot. The only thing that changes is that it is cast at a lower caster level and it counts as divine... which really doesn't do anything. Divine and Arcane magic function nearly identically. There are a few rare special abilities and feats out there that make the distinction, but is that enough call for using this feat?

Not certain if it would help with scrolls. Your Cleric/Wizard may be able to prepare cure light wounds as an arcane spell, but it's not actually on either the spell list as an arcane spell. So I don't know if it would let him use a bard's scroll of cure light wounds. It would take some picky analysis of the rules on scrolls to be sure one way or the other, though. Still, I don't think the issue comes up enough that, if you could use scrolls in this way, it would be worth the feat.

I suppose it would let your Cleric 1/Wizard 7 qualify for a feat or prestige class with a prerequisite of "Able to cast 4th-level divine spells." That might make the feat worthwhile for certain strange builds.

Ramza00
2007-04-07, 03:52 PM
There are three benefits of the feat.

1) Allowing you to multiclass into a dual caster prc earlier. A Archivist 3/Wizard 1 can enter mystic theurge after the feat.

2) Some monsters/areas enhance or diminish arcane or divine spells. Ethergaunt is immune to arcane spells but not divine, Lilith or something in Fiendish Codex is extra weak to divine spells, Ur Priest and what it called again in Planar Handbook (starts with an A, the Athiest group that believed Gods aren't Gods they just tap in a greater power and pretend to be Gods) get a divine resistance.

3) Beads of Karma require you casting a divine spell before you can use them. Thus this feat, UMD, a ring of spell storing your friend casts a divine spell in, etc.

Ramza00
2007-04-07, 03:54 PM
Also makes Fohculan Lyrist and Arcane Hierophant builds alot better, by allowing you to take only 1 lvl of Bard (use able learner to keep your skills up), focus on Druid and then once you hit lvl 11 go into Sublime Chord for 1 lvl followed by F Lyrist or Arcane Hierophant.

It is a weird feat, I don't know if I like it that much.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-07, 03:57 PM
Wouldn't it allow a wizard to take a divine PrC (requiring divine spell casting), netting the extra HP and BAB that normally come with those? With this feat wizard could be a class that grants divine spells and thus be improved by the "+1 level of existing class" thang from PrCs.

Dreyden
2007-04-07, 03:59 PM
Also, divine spells are not subject to Arcane Spell Failure from armor, unless the feat mentions that it doesn't change that.

Ramza00
2007-04-07, 04:07 PM
Wouldn't it allow a wizard to take a divine PrC (requiring divine spell casting), netting the extra HP and BAB that normally come with those? With this feat wizard could be a class that grants divine spells and thus be improved by the "+1 level of existing class" thang from PrCs.
Depends. A wizard can easily enter such a prc with this feat. If the thing says "+1 lvl of Divine Spellcasting Class" though the wizard shouldn't get the benefit of the boost in spellcasting level

Ikkitosen
2007-04-07, 05:05 PM
Depends. A wizard can easily enter such a prc with this feat. If the thing says "+1 lvl of Divine Spellcasting Class" though the wizard shouldn't get the benefit of the boost in spellcasting level

I agree, though one could argue that since his wizard spells can be made divine he'd qualify, but I don't really want to consider that.

Rigeld2
2007-04-07, 05:10 PM
It allows a Wizard to copy his entire spellbook over to an Archivist.
Archivist can scribe any divine scroll.
Wizard prepares a bunch of spells as divine, and then makes divine scrolls.
Archivist starts throwing Black Tentacles.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-04-07, 10:27 PM
It allows a Wizard to copy his entire spellbook over to an Archivist.
Archivist can scribe any divine scroll.
Wizard prepares a bunch of spells as divine, and then makes divine scrolls.
Archivist starts throwing Black Tentacles.

That's what I immediately thought on reading the effect of this feat. I think this is the best use of the feat.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-07, 10:39 PM
Also, divine spells are not subject to Arcane Spell Failure from armor, unless the feat mentions that it doesn't change that.
Now, that's something I really overlooked.

So, would a Clr 1/Wiz 5 with this feat count as having "Divine Caster Level 4?" Although he can cast divine spells with a caster level of 4, it's based off of an Arcane Caster Level.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-04-08, 06:39 AM
It allows a Wizard to copy his entire spellbook over to an Archivist.
Archivist can scribe any divine scroll.
Wizard prepares a bunch of spells as divine, and then makes divine scrolls.
Archivist starts throwing Black Tentacles.

That's exactly what I was thinking of. In my current game, we haven't got a cleric or wizard; I'm trying to be both. The fact that an Archivist has much better spells/day than a wizard also helps.

storybookknight
2007-04-09, 07:14 PM
While we're on the subject... This allows a wizard 3/cleric 1 to start taking mystic theurge. (Or archivist, yes - though I don't know precisely how such a spell would work.) Having 13th level wizard spellcasting and 11th level cleric spellcasting at 14th level seems like a reasonable sort of progression to embark upon.

Tamugetsu
2010-09-10, 01:24 PM
In the campaign I'm part of, I play a Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge with this feat. He can cast wizard spells in +2 Full Plate with no penalties except -1 caster level. Unfortunately, our DM has a rule that says you can't take a level in a PrC unless you are taking it as at least your 6th level. Luckily, because there was miscommunication about a house multiclassing rule he implied, he lets me multiclass freely between cleric and wizard with no XP penalties. As a result, he is now a Wizard1/Cleric5/Mystic Theurge10. He can cast 6th level wizard spells and 8th level cleric spells, all in heavy armor, and he has items to increase his constitution and wisdom. He has more casts than our Sorcerer/Wild Mage, I think. Plus he's got Empower Spell and Divine Metamagic, and the Cold Domain, giving him an extra set of turning to use to metamagic his spells. He can do more damage than the Wild Mage mentioned above (though not as often, I admit) and his defenses are second only to our Paladin/Fighter. Plus, his will save is a 19. (His modifier, not the one you need to beat to resist his spells, obviously.) Plus he has a familiar who can deliver his cure spells for him.

I like alternative source spell. Could you tell?

OK, so his reflex save is a 3. But STILL. This feat can be really useful. In fact, the other day I was thinking about how awesome it would be to have a Bard/Cleric/MT with Alternative Source Spell, Metamagics, Divine Metamagic, and whatever feat is the equivalent of Divine Metamagic for Bardic Music - the name slipped my mind.

Sorry I got so long winded. I tried as hard as I could to break my Theurge, because my first character, by beloved Bard, got messed up because I chose a bad PrC that my DM suggested, which didn't match my stats at all. So I'm a little obsessed with my Theurge.

Frosty
2010-09-10, 01:26 PM
This feat also appears to allow you to use Divine Metamagic on your wizard spell, since they can now be prepared as divine.

Tamugetsu
2010-09-10, 01:30 PM
Oh, and the reason I decided to make him a wizard instead of a sorcerer, and the reason I made him a Mystic Theurge in the first place when all we really needed was a healer?

"I prepared Explosive Runes this morning."

Which I have, so far, not gotten a chance to say. :smallfrown:

But the familiar is nice. And there's a reason it can deliver touch spells for me despite my being only Wiz1, but I've tortured you guys quite enough with my Theurge, I think.

Tamugetsu
2010-09-10, 01:31 PM
This feat also appears to allow you to use Divine Metamagic on your wizard spell, since they can now be prepared as divine.

Yes it does. :smallbiggrin:

Tamugetsu
2010-09-10, 01:42 PM
Thought mostly, I use it on one of his signature spells, Cometfall. Our DM uses Complete Divine, in which that spell is wonderful. Empowered, and outside or with a very high ceiling, it deals 30d6 damage. And makes a +11 trip check. Reflex half for the damage and to avoid the trip check. The save to make is a 22.

He also has Purify Spell. We're in the lower planes right now. So make that 30d8. And my teammates wonder why I have no turn uses left. I'm putting them to good use, and with Augment Healing, I can heal the undead to death more effectively than I could turn them anyway.

Shoot, I rambled again. Sorry, this is my first time posting on this site, and I needed to rant about my Theurge to people.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-10, 01:57 PM
Great Modthulhu: Turn Undead Thread!