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Ghost Dragon
2015-02-26, 04:29 AM
Well, here is another 3.5 PrC morph into 5e, the Shadowbane Stalker from CA. As usual still in design phase so comments and suggestions are most welcome. Thanks :smallbiggrin:

Edit: As of 02/07/2018 the NEW Shadowbane Stalker is here, complete overhaul again (left the OLD one in there as a reference/just in case). Please PEACH as I like this much better, and the only thing I really feel like I need feedback on is the third level ability Sacred Guidance (Both spellcasting and Sacred Guidance are attempting to stick as close as possible to Arcane Trickster in both power and application). By the same token if you see anything in the other features that seems off or odd please point it out, but most of them are ports from other published material anyways. Cheers!

Shadowbane Stalker
Some rogues dedicated to the worship of a deity enhance their skills of stealth and investigation with divine magic. Those they name as heretics or servants of evil call them zealots. Those they protect from darkness call them saviours and defenders of the truth. Whatever their label, shadowbane stalkers rank as some of the most feared individuals wherever they go.

Spellcasting

When you reach 3rd level, your dedication to your deity and the hunt for its enemies empowers you with divine spellcasting ability.

Cantrips. You learn three cantrips from of your choice from the cleric spell list. You learn another cleric cantrip of your choice at 10th level.
Spell Slots. The Shadowbane Stalker spellcasting table (See Arcane Trickster spellcasting table) shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spellís level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. For example, if you know the 1st-level spell bless and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast bless using either slot.
Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher. You know three 1st-level spells of your choice, two of which must come from the cleric spell list. The third spell must come from the paladin spell list. The Spells Known column of the Shadowbane Stalker spellcasting table (See Arcane Trickster spellcasting table) shows when you learn more cleric spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 7th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level. The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from either the cleric spell list or the paladin spell list.
Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the cleric spells you know with another spell of your choice from the cleric spell list, unless youíre replacing the spells you gained at 8th, 14th, or 20th level. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Spellcasting Ability. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your spells. The power of your spells comes from your devotion to your deity. You use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Wisdom modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Channel Divinity

When you take this archetype at 3rd level, you gain the ability to channel divine energy to fuel magical effects. When you use your Channel Divinity, if you have more than one option, you choose which option to use. You must then finish a short or long rest to use your Channel Divinity again.
Channel Divinity: Sacred Strike
Starting at 3rd level, as an action you can imbue one weapon that you are holding with positive energy, using your Channel Divinity. For 1 minute, the weapon deals radiant damage and you add an extra 1d6 + your Wisdom modifier to all damage rolls made with that weapon (with a minimum bonus of +1). If you are no longer holding or carrying this weapon, or if you fall unconscious, this effect ends.
Channel Divinity: Sacred Defense
At 13th level, as an action you can empower yourself with positive energy, using your Channel Divinity. For 1 minute, you add your Wisdom modifier to your AC and saving throws (with a minimum bonus of +1). If you fall unconscious, this effect ends.

Holy Pursuit

Beginning at 9th level, you can use the divinity within you to empower your ability to hunt your foes. As a bonus action, you expend a spell slot and choose one of the following creature types: aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, or undead. You choose the creature type each time you activate this class feature. You gain advantage on any Stealth, Insight, Investigation, Deception, Perception or Survival checks you make while interacting with or investigating the chosen creature type. You can activate this feature a second time to choose another creature, but you lose all benefits of the first activation. This ability lasts a number of hours equal to your Wisdom modifier + the level of spell slot expended.

Divine Speed

Starting at 13th level, you have advantage on initiative checks, and creatures have disadvantage on saving throws they make against any spell you cast during the first round of combat.

Shadows Bane

At 17th-level, as an action, you can assume the form of a true stalker of evil. For 1 minute, light shines from your eyes and spectral radiance suffuses your body. For the duration, you regain 5 hit points at the start of every turn as long as you have 1 hit point remaining, and you have advantage on all saving throws against spells. Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you complete a long rest.

Shadowbane Stalker
Some rogues dedicated to the worship of a deity enhance their skills of stealth and investigation with divine magic. Those they name as heretics or servants of evil call them zealots. Those they protect from darkness call them saviours and defenders of the truth. Whatever their label, shadowbane stalkers rank as some of the most feared individuals wherever they go.

3rd level Spellcasting
When you reach 3rd level, your dedication to your deity and the hunt for their enemies empowers you with divine spellcasting ability.
Cantrips. You learn three cantrips: guidance and two other cantrips of your choice from the cleric spell list. You learn another cleric cantrip of your choice at 10th level.
Spell Slots. The Shadowbane Stalker spellcasting table (See Arcane Trickster spellcasting table) shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spellís level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. For example, if you know the 1st-level spell bless and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast bless using either slot.
Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher. You know three 1st-level spells: wrathful smite and two other 1st-level spells of your choice which you must choose from the cleric spell list. The Spells Known column of the Shadowbane Stalker spellcasting table (See Arcane Trickster spellcasting table) shows when you learn more cleric spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 7th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level. You learn specific spells when you reach certain levels in this class that are included in your spells known spell casting table. At 8th level you learn pass without trace, at 14th level you learn blinding smite, and at 20th level you learn charm monster.
Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the cleric spells you know with another spell of your choice from the cleric spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Spellcasting Ability. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your spells. The power of your spells comes from your devotion to your deity. You use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Wisdom modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
Spellcasting Focus. You can use a holy symbol (found in chapter 5) as a spellcasting focus for your shadowbane stalker spells.

Sacred Guidance
Starting at 3rd level, you feel the hand of your deity upon your shoulder, weakening your enemies resolve whilst bolstering yours, and guiding your swift and fluid combat style to strike true against them. You may use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to cast guidance, and when targeting yourself you can use guidance in the following additional ways:

ē As part of the action you use to cast guidance, you may roll the d4 and gain temporary hit points equal to the number rolled. The temporary hit points are lost at the start of your next turn.

ē As part of the action you use to cast guidance, you may roll the d4 and add the number rolled to your passive Dexterity (Acrobatics) score, which is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of a creature you can see within 5 feet of you that isnít incapacitated. If you succeed, you can use your Sneak Attack against that target even if you donít have advantage on the attack roll, but not if you have disadvantage on it, and that creature canít make opportunity attacks against you. This benefit lasts until the start of your next turn.

Divine Stamina
Beginning at 9th level, the divine magic flowing through you makes you immune to disease, and you gain proficiency in Constitution saving throws.

Stalkerís Rebuke
Starting at 13th level, you gain the ability to thwart someone elseís magic. When you see a creature casting a spell or teleporting within 60 feet of you, you can use your reaction to try to magically foil it. The creature must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw against your spell save DC, or its spell or teleport fails and is wasted. Once you use this feature, you canít use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

Sacred Strike
At 17th level, you learn to use your divine insight to exploit a creatureís weaknesses, unleashing a sacred strike against it. Whenever your Sacred Guidance feature successfully allows you to use your Sneak Attack on a creature and you score a hit, your Sneak Attack damage against that creature increases by 3d6, and all the damage you deal to the creature with that attack is radiant damage.

Ghost Dragon
2015-07-24, 04:34 AM
Complete overhaul on this one. Please PEACH as I didn't get any feedback last time I posted this one up. Thank you in advance :).

Princess
2015-07-24, 08:13 PM
I like it - this seems well done and fills a niche that is otherwise unfilled. I've always liked the idea of a divine trickster, and the only way to do that is multi-classing in 5e core.

Sacred Defense, however, seems a bit too strong for level 3. I'd suggest making it come on line at a higher level.

And Shadow's Bane is kind of a weird capstone - the extra HP is awesome, but a crowning save boosting ability that only works against certain enemies is pretty hit or miss, imo.

Ghost Dragon
2015-07-25, 08:27 AM
I like it - this seems well done and fills a niche that is otherwise unfilled. I've always liked the idea of a divine trickster, and the only way to do that is multi-classing in 5e core.

Thanks, glad you like it :smallsmile:


Sacred Defense, however, seems a bit too strong for level 3. I'd suggest making it come on line at a higher level.

Yeh fair enough, they are both par of the original PrC but I think you're right about that. Will rewright it to be at 9th level.... Or maybe 13th. What do you think?


And Shadow's Bane is kind of a weird capstone - the extra HP is awesome, but a crowning save boosting ability that only works against certain enemies is pretty hit or miss, imo.

Well perhaps just a straight advantage on spell saving throws? I'll edit it to be that instead, unless you have any other ideas?

One more thing. Do you think having pally spells as the main choice is the best way to go? I re-read the 3.5 PrC the other day and it suggests clerics are the most likely ones to go into it. Now I know this is a re-wright and I was going for a bit more of a pallyesk thing, but perhaps with the divine strike being its option for increased holy damage, it would be better to change casting stat to Wisdom and have all the spells from the cleric list? Any thoughts anyone?

Thanks heaps for the feedback too Princess :smallwink:

Princess
2015-07-25, 02:23 PM
9 or 13 seems like it might work for that ability, so try out that change.

Advantage on all spell saves for 1 minute doesn't seem unbalanced to me as a final ability.

As for the spell list, I'd say switch paladin and cleric in your original wording - mostly Cleric spells so that they can be more versatile (and so you can more easily make a neutral one), but they can still grab compel duel or the like if they want to.

Ghost Dragon
2015-07-25, 09:02 PM
9 or 13 seems like it might work for that ability, so try out that change.

Advantage on all spell saves for 1 minute doesn't seem unbalanced to me as a final ability.

As for the spell list, I'd say switch paladin and cleric in your original wording - mostly Cleric spells so that they can be more versatile (and so you can more easily make a neutral one), but they can still grab compel duel or the like if they want to.

Awesome, set Sacred Defence at 13, and the other stuff is done and done. Thanks again Princess, I think its pretty good now, flavour and balance. :)

Any other comments welcome of course.

Ghost Dragon
2018-07-02, 02:14 AM
2nd complete overhaul on this one. Please PEACH as I really like it but would like opinions on balance Thank you in advance :).

Composer99
2018-07-02, 06:26 AM
The revamped version looks great, IMO. None of the features look out of line for the level at which you get them.

Ghost Dragon
2018-07-02, 07:28 AM
The revamped version looks great, IMO. None of the features look out of line for the level at which you get them.

Hey Composer99,

Thanks for the feedback, yep I think I'm sold on finally signing off on it. Cheers again.

nickl_2000
2018-07-02, 07:53 AM
ē When you are hit by an attack you can add the 1d4 to your AC (no action required), potentially causing the attack to miss you.

Does this apply to only the 1 attack or does it apply to all attacks per round? Also, do you have an issue with the PC using both this and defensive duelist AC bonus on the same attack? As written they could. I'm just not sure why this isn't a reaction, being a reaction seem like it would follow the normal design/gameplay.

Nifft
2018-07-02, 12:19 PM
This is a great niche to target -- it's certainly missing from 5e.

Guidance is a great spell to make central to the class, and it's a perfect fit for a skill-user like the Rogue.

Guidance as part of Cunning Action is a great fit, and enables a very skillful archetype.

I don't like the level 3 Guidance bonus perks, though. The way it's written, it seems like the +1d4 to attack would to stack with Bless, and that's just too strong. The defense option seems to either conflict or overlap with Uncanny Dodge.

Suggestions:
- Give two extra known spells per spell-level, just like a Domain or an Oath.
- At level 3, give Bless and Wrathful Smite. Bless encompasses the +1d4 to attack, and applies to your allies as well, and doesn't stack with someone else's Bless.

Instead of expanding the scope of Guidance, what about some sort of Channel Divinity bonus? Clerics & Paladins get two of those. This guy might get something undead-specific, and also something skill-specific.

Ghost Dragon
2018-07-03, 01:56 AM
ē When you are hit by an attack you can add the 1d4 to your AC (no action required), potentially causing the attack to miss you.

Does this apply to only the 1 attack or does it apply to all attacks per round? Also, do you have an issue with the PC using both this and defensive duelist AC bonus on the same attack? As written they could. I'm just not sure why this isn't a reaction, being a reaction seem like it would follow the normal design/gameplay.

Hey Nick,

I was going to make it a reaction but did not want it to interfere with Uncanny Dodge, and I did think about defensive duelist too and the possible cross over. I will think about a replacement/rework as I agree with you in regards to the action economy.

Cheers

Ghost Dragon
2018-07-03, 01:59 AM
This is a great niche to target -- it's certainly missing from 5e.

Guidance is a great spell to make central to the class, and it's a perfect fit for a skill-user like the Rogue.

Guidance as part of Cunning Action is a great fit, and enables a very skillful archetype.

I don't like the level 3 Guidance bonus perks, though. The way it's written, it seems like the +1d4 to attack would to stack with Bless, and that's just too strong. The defense option seems to either conflict or overlap with Uncanny Dodge.

Suggestions:
- Give two extra known spells per spell-level, just like a Domain or an Oath.
- At level 3, give Bless and Wrathful Smite. Bless encompasses the +1d4 to attack, and applies to your allies as well, and doesn't stack with someone else's Bless.

Instead of expanding the scope of Guidance, what about some sort of Channel Divinity bonus? Clerics & Paladins get two of those. This guy might get something undead-specific, and also something skill-specific.

Hey Nifft,

Glad you like the archetype and guidance base.

In regards to overlapping with Bless, I though the concentration on Guidance itself would negate that, but I didn't think about other party members casting it and it stacking and agree that it could be too strong in those circumstances. I also agree that the defense option interferes with/competes with Uncanny Dodge which should take precedence as a straight class feature.

I had the old stalker having a Channel Divinity Option but thought mirroring the MageHand Legerdemain was the way to go, and giving the cantrip as a bonus action plus CD seems to strong to me, so I will work on other alternate Guidance uses. Will post edit soon.

Cheers and thanks heaps for feedback :)

Ghost Dragon
2018-07-03, 09:31 AM
So I have made some changes to Sacred Guidance (Changed the fluff in the description to give a bit more of an idea of what I was going for), and also added holy symbols as a spellcasting focus (because HOLY WARRIOR!!!).

It now allows a use against an enemy's ability check within 30ft using your reaction (something nifty but not OP IMO).

When guidance is cast the d4 roll gives temp hp until the start of your next turn. This still gives the defence feel but doesn't compete with the action economy of Uncanny Dodge.

When guidance is cast it allows a contest of Dex (Acro) vs a creatures Wis (Per) to grant Sneak Attack without advantage, and it cant take opp attacks against you for that turn.

All of these are hopefully comparable in mechanics, effect and power of similar features and are not game breaking.

On a side note, linking the temp hp and SA usage to its casting prevents to much doubling up or nova on the utility buff/de-buff spells (ie bless, bane, shield of faith, wrathful smite, blinding smite, sacred weapon etc) due to it still having concentration, and casting it would immediately end any of those previously mentioned spells. This means there is still a lot of meaning for choice and consequence in the decision of when and where to use these features, and not just and auto pick every turn.

What say you?

BerzerkerUnit
2018-07-03, 10:43 PM
I feel like the 3rd level features are a bit more than I'd normally like to see, Spellcasting and that laundry list of other Guidance abilities seems a bit much. Maybe splitting them up among the other Archetype levels wouldn't be so bad.

All in all I like this for secret church assassins subtype.

Ghost Dragon
2018-07-04, 01:47 AM
I feel like the 3rd level features are a bit more than I'd normally like to see, Spellcasting and that laundry list of other Guidance abilities seems a bit much. Maybe splitting them up among the other Archetype levels wouldn't be so bad.

All in all I like this for secret church assassins subtype.

Hey Berzerker,

Thanks for the feedback. I understand it looks like a lot, but I felt that the abilities there were comparable to the Arcane Trickster mage hand changes, but again I'm open to changes.

The main things I wanted in the guidance alteration was to allow this subtype to stand more toe to toe with enemies, using the guidance to either give them staying power or an option to get out of combat (as guidance stops them from using the disengage action with Cunning Action) while at the same time comparing with the mage hand change, which makes it unique, and from the original PrC from 3.5 there was a "Sacred Shield" option which is what the temp hp ability is there to cover.

I'm not at all fussed about the first dot point "ie the subtract off of an enemy ability check" and would be happy to lose that completely if it would help balance it out.

The third dot point is a mix n match from existing rogue archetypes from XGtE, but with more limitation. The contested roll for Sneak Attack is a mechanic from only 1 of the 3 options the Inquisitive gets, and their version lasts for a minute on one creature, this one only last's until the start of the next turn, meaning another bonus action and contested check is required (increasing its action economy cost). The no opportunity attack is from the Swashbuckler, and again is a limited version of only 1 of 3 of their options as well, as theirs allows the no opportunity attack with only a melee attack whether it misses or not. With the contested roll in this option there is a chance neither of these things will happen (Sneak Attack or No Opportunity Attack for target), and coupled with the other things I've mentioned about it's origins related to other Rogue subtypes I thought this was actually within the realm of good balance. (Obviously I like this one a lot as I'm making by business case for it :smallwink:)

So in conclusion, if I just drop the first dot point off the list, would that be balanced enough for you? If not please suggest an alternative (ie where in the progression one of the dot points might go etc)

Cheers and thanks for helping!

Ghost Dragon
2018-07-06, 12:28 AM
So I have removed one of the guidance abilities, leaving only two left, the temp hp and SA mods. I believe this is balanced due to action economy and each option being flavourful and competing fairly for the use of Cunning Action.

Thanks everyone for your input!