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View Full Version : Standing Strong When You Are Weak (Ideas Needed)



JNAProductions
2015-02-28, 09:25 PM
My players are a smart bunch, but they've got a fuzzy grasp of the mechanics of D&D. They'll get it soon enough, but honestly, I want more out of gameplay than just the rules give.

What I want is to put players in a situation where they are overmatched, where their capabilities are simply not enough. But at the same time, I want these situations to be able to be defeated through cunning and wit.

For reference, I've got three players. A Druid, a Wizard, and a Fighter. They're about to do a Modron dungeon crawl.

jaydubs
2015-02-28, 10:01 PM
A few suggestions to encourage thinking outside the box:

1. Let them know from the beginning. A lot of games are set up so most fights are ones the players can win. Tell them from the start, out-of-character, that they're going to face a lot of things they can't just fight heads up.

2. Learn to say yes. By which I mean, when someone comes up with an idea, adjust the circumstances (within reason) so that it can work. The fastest way to get players to stop trying to be creative, is to shoot down their ideas. The idea requires a shovel? Oh, you've got one in the wagon. Need some wood? There's a grove of trees half a mile from here. Need some specialized tools? There's a blacksmith in town that can help them out if they look for him. Etc.

3. Similar to point 2. But don't get stuck on the way problems are "supposed" to be solved. It's a bad habit a lot of DMs have to think up a situation, and then their own super clever solution that the players are supposed to figure out. They then get stuck, vetoing any solution other than that super special idea.

JNAProductions
2015-02-28, 10:07 PM
A few suggestions to encourage thinking outside the box:

1. Let them know from the beginning. A lot of games are set up so most fights are ones the players can win. Tell them from the start, out-of-character, that they're going to face a lot of things they can't just fight heads up.

2. Learn to say yes. By which I mean, when someone comes up with an idea, adjust the circumstances (within reason) so that it can work. The fastest way to get players to stop trying to be creative, is to shoot down their ideas. The idea requires a shovel? Oh, you've got one in the wagon. Need some wood? There's a grove of trees half a mile from here. Need some specialized tools? There's a blacksmith in town that can help them out if they look for him. Etc.

3. Similar to point 2. But don't get stuck on the way problems are "supposed" to be solved. It's a bad habit a lot of DMs have to think up a situation, and then their own super clever solution that the players are supposed to figure out. They then get stuck, vetoing any solution other than that super special idea.

1: I didn't let them know that with HotDQ (because I knew not myself) but they did pretty well.

2: Done.

3: I wasn't planning on pre-making solutions.

Perhaps I should be a tad more clear-I'd like some actual scenarios to put them in, not general advice. I think as a DM and them as players can work well with conquering the impossible.

Alex12
2015-02-28, 10:49 PM
Modrons, huh? Aren't those the super-lawful extraplanar robots?
If the modrons didn't actually make the dungeon, there could be all sorts of terrain that would give them trouble- bridges and catwalks that can be cut or blocked, traps that the modrons could be tricked into triggering, perhaps even other dungeon inhabitants that could be manipulated (through diplomacy, trickery, kiting one toward the other, or something else entirely) to serve as an obstacle. There could also be traps or standing magical effects that could be used creatively. For example, a room with a metal repulsion field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/repelMetalOrStone.htm) that stops all metals from entering, or a Spell Turret that can be set to see you as friendly with the proper password (that can be found or pieced together from other areas of the dungeon)
Could have the very lawful modrons have very specific patrol patterns that they will not deviate from without outside interruption, to facilitate sneaking and stealth without having a sneakiness and stealth expert.

Maglubiyet
2015-03-01, 08:44 AM
It kind of matters which version of D&D you're playing as the modrons are different in each one.

Generally, though, their lawfulness and hierarchical nature is probably the key to overcoming them. They might have a powerful army, but if the PC's take out or trick the ranking modron the rest might will have a harder time reacting appropriately without their leadership. They'll probably follow their last instructions.

NichG
2015-03-01, 08:56 AM
One potential way to do this would be to give the party a lot of 'aces' - oneshot items, favors to call in, etc that have kind of funky abilities but which are really absolute within their own domain. So when things get really bad, the players get into the habit of thinking 'what indirect thing do I have that could resolve this situation?' rather than immediately defaulting to their built-in mechanics.

Then, you can try to reduce the number of aces. The thing is though that the players may well become dependent on those aces rather than substituting their own ideas to create their own aces. That's the hard part of this particular angle.

Kol Korran
2015-03-01, 02:54 PM
Various games enable a limited resource of edge/ karma/ action points/ fate points/ hero points an the like. They work in a similar fashion- they enable the PCs to boost their abilties/ do more action/ do actions they can't usually, but only a very limited amount of times. Usually, these are kept to the right moment, and enable a "heroic comeback, despite the odds". Works quite nicely, as long as their supply is limtied enough (I'd suggest 5-7 per adventure)

Though... that may not exactly be what you're aiming at. You want them to use wit and clever thinking, eh? Well, in that case you need to build "scenes with potential". The idea is that you put into crucial scenes (And in extrapolation- the adventure and campaign), multiple things that can be exploited and interacted with in clever ways.

For example: Lets say there is a boss monster- A knight of great armor and heat. In his environment you may put things like narrow bridges, maybe about to fall boulders, perhaps a few "magical crystals" (TM) that can be damaged to reduce his powers, but are guarded by lower minions, and so on.

As suggested, don't get locked on the "one right way" to solve the problem, or even "5 right way". Put things of potential (I go by at least 3, sometime 5), and let the players have their fun. Be prepared though that your players find a way to beat the obstacle even by straight rushing it, and using the the game rules and mechanics right. It is still fun.

Also, various one shot items like NichG suggested could be fun, but for that you need players who like doing that, and actually keep such things with them, and not sell them.

Good luck to you!

NichG
2015-03-01, 08:21 PM
To avoid the 'players sell item' situation, you just have to make them ridiculously overpowered, very narrow, and very dangerous in the wrong hands. For example, one that has cropped up in a game I've run and one I've been in is 'a literal silver bullet'. If you shoot this at something, regardless of what it is, it will die with no save, resistance, or sense of scale. If you shoot someone, they die. But if you miss and it hits the ground, the land dies (limited to natural borders to prevent this from being too apocalyptic).

That's a bit extreme, so another few examples from others campaign: a 'True Lie' and a 'Lost Found' - abstract representations of favors promised by a supernatural entity, outcome of their use fully open to interpretation, so you could use the Lost Found to cause an enemy to suddenly be missing something they looted off of another person, or you could use it to obtain something that had once been lost. A pen that retroactively changes all copies that have ever been made of any document it alters (players immediately decided to try to mess around with Baatorian contracts). A sword whose blade can be sacrificed to enable it to cut not its target, but the source of it's target's worst problem. A wand that grants one wish without bounds, but also permits a malevolent entity somewhere else in the universe to then make a wish of equal magnitude. A paintbrush that can mix inanimate objects as if they were colors of paint.

Often players won't sell that kind of thing because they won't trust the DM to not have an NPC show up with it later on or use it against them. You do have to give them 2x to 3x what they'll actually need though, or they'll hoard them.

JNAProductions
2015-03-01, 08:27 PM
Wow. That is a lot of advice. Thank you everyone.

It seems like the two main things to try are interesting set pieces, which I'll try to do, and powerful one-shot items, which I'm a bit more wary about. My players are... Well, one is forgetful and doesn't think through actions a ton, one gives absolutely no cusses as a character (fitting, as she gives none in life either) and the last, while most level-headed, is also the worst at D&D for the moment. I just have this horrible, horrible vision of me giving them something and them immediately screwing everything up.

...

I think I'll give them the "key" to the Modron Cathedral. The one that spits out a constant stream of Monodrones. It'll come with a clear warning that using it will only last a day at most, and will likely attract a lot of trouble once used, but while it lasts? An infinite stream of Modrons at your beck and call.

Fun times are sure to be had.

draken50
2015-03-02, 01:03 AM
My players are... Well, one is forgetful and doesn't think through actions a ton, one gives absolutely no cusses as a character (fitting, as she gives none in life either) and the last, while most level-headed, is also the worst at D&D for the moment.

This leaves me wondering why insurmountable challenges that can only be overcome by cunning and wit would seem like a good idea for this group. If two out of your three players isn't going to either care, or think... well, do you see the dilemma?

Often I've found it can be better to provide those sorts of situations prior to full crap/fan moments. Stuff where failure, unless from very poorly conceived actions is not immediately fatal. Basic ones such as, having to cross a ravine ect. where the bridge is out, or in one example.. a tree that is on fire that needs to cease being on fire. Often finding creative solutions, or even solutions that require the player to think beyond the abilities on their character sheet have to be encouraged regularly, over time.

The tree situation involved casters casting spells at it, and the swordsman considering hitting it with a sword, prompting me as the GM to ask: "If you wanted to cut down the tree outside, what would you do?"
"Get an ax... Could I get an ax from the village?"
"Sure"
"Okay, I get an ax and start cutting down the tree..."
"Alright, the several villagers see what you are doing and grab tools of their own to come help."

This happened in the first session, but one of my main goals for that session was to help teach my new players that the character sheet and the rules in the books are not the limit of what they can do. Now had I added some kind of time limit or major failure event for their failed actions, the players may have ended up dead feeling like I had come up with some sort of limited correct answer type puzzle.

BootStrapTommy
2015-03-02, 01:23 AM
In the challenge rating section of the DMG I do believes it talks about this.
Encounters which are considered very difficult or nearly impossible, but which have an easy solution.

But be careful. Once ran a campaign where I attacked the party with animated bookshelves. The CR was well above the party. But of course, they're made of wood. Obvious solution was fire. Especially given that one of the players had been a pyro with alchemist fire up until then. Two of three party members got dropped before the remaining party member dragged the party out of the building. Because at the beginning of the fight, the rest of the party banned the pyro from using alchemist fire.

Mind you, after they got out safely they promptly set the place ablaze.

Point is, players will achieve monumental feats in the face of your most dangerous odds. Then they'll fail against your most basic challenges.

goto124
2015-03-02, 01:41 AM
Why did they ban him? Did they think the DM was going to make the party get hurt by uncontrolled flames due to the obvious solution? It would also explain why they ran out of the house before setting it on fire.

BootStrapTommy
2015-03-02, 01:48 AM
Why did they ban him? Did they think the DM was going to make the party get hurt by uncontrolled flames due to the obvious solution? It would also explain why they ran out of the house before setting it on fire. Haha, maybe it was my fault. Since that's kinda what happened earlier.

But I won't take the full blame. He's the one who threw fire bombs when the party was standing in the middle of kindling.

That being said, they were in a stone building. So it shouldn't have been an issue.

Otherwise the explosive rune trap on the altar would have been a bigger pain in the bum...

goto124
2015-03-02, 01:50 AM
Out of curiosity, what did the explosive runes say?

BootStrapTommy
2015-03-02, 01:53 AM
Out of curiosity, what did the explosive runes say? If you're here, you know exactly what it said! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0092.html)

JNAProductions
2015-03-02, 10:18 PM
So, report: They utterly trashed every threat. No joke.

I threw them two consecutive lethal encounters (by DMG standards) without rests in between and they dominated it. I didn't include the Modron Cathedral Key since we're switching to Engine Heart, but it took modifying a Shadow Demon to get 5 extra attacks to properly challenge them. (At level 3.)

That's why I wanted big threats. Despite them being irresponsible, forgetful, bad at gaming, and all that, they wreck challenges like it's their job.

Gritmonger
2015-03-02, 10:41 PM
If it's modrons, and modrons are the threat, throw them en-masse. More the better. But make it clear after a few turns that they follow a pattern in how they move and attack. Let the players try and use that against them. A set of insurmountable odds can be more offputting than one single threat, especially if it descends while they are separated.

One CR3 owlbear? My level 2 players trashed it, no help, no worries.

Six CR1/4 wolves? My level 2 players were foundering, out of position, and had to fall back on friendlies to help.

And I won't even get into their issues dealing with Giant Centipedes.

If you think about it, even though the wolves are 1/2 the total CR of the owlbear, they get six attacks a round, can maneuver like an amoeba around and through the party's defenses, engage more than one target at a time, and while the Owlbear doesn't lose an attack when 1/6 of its hitpoints are depleted and it hits harder, it never had more than the two attacks to start with.

The more pieces they have to move around, get through, or take care of, the worse it gets for even dealing with low-level threats. It can force them to take a defensive position, or risk being caught in the open with as many as eight opponents around them.

Crowd control can be a real challenge, whether it's an open space or an enclosed space.

Rhunder
2015-03-16, 07:32 PM
When throwing superior numbers against PCs, I often worry that sheer numbers will bring them down(wolves are the best at killing low-mid level players, especially spellcasters), I add a morale score for them.

If the PCs wipe many out in quick succession or the leader of the attackers, they can scare off the rest. Making vast and sometimes stupid high numbers work. So even if they don't kill some, they can often out smart them by making their force seem better. Ghost Sound or vocal warriors works quite well against this morale system